Running away from problems

Hi,
I try to describe a program/situation, which seems to me a mayor one of my machine and causes problems in my relationships. I wrote almost anything down in my journal what I could observe in these moments, when tensions in my machine have been occurring and what is maybe interconnected with the "running away" program.
I knew beforehand that it could cause trouble when I'm travelling to my friend, but in my naivety I said maybe I can observe something this time [description next paragraph].

I have visited a good friend (A) of mine this weekend for her birthday party, she's not my girlfriend but we are friends for many, many years. And this program strongly occurs when I'm with her, that does not mean to blame her, just to give you an outer frame. So I have joined her party with 10-12 other people (where about 90% I have never met before) and we went out to have some fun, so to speak.
Already in groups my machine feels not that comfortable and is switching in a protection program. That means I don't like to talk openly in groups about myself, before I can trust them. I prefer to give short and pregnant answers and most of them are ironical. In a one on one situation, even with a new person to me, it looks much better, I can talk more freely.
Sometimes I get the impression anything I could say in a group, could get used against me. "I think that others may think..."

But lets move on, my machine has been looking for acknowledgement from my friend (simply that IT can talk to her, because we haven't seen us for a longer time), just to get a little bit attention, because my machine felt not any more comfortable in this group. We have been in a bar: music, much more people, many people are a little bit drunken or already full, and my machine doesn't like to drink, so my machine was sober and has been sitting a little bit alienated around. My friend had been fun, talked to (all) other people, has been dancing etc. and in my machine anger has been rising against my friend, a kind of tension in the solar-plexus area, it felt like heat. And a wish was occurring, my machine wanted just to stand up and pack the stuff and travel back home, to run away, to give her somehow the feeling of anger.
I tried to fight IT and tried to observe: "What does IT want?", "Don't get identified", "It is internal consideration, you cannot hurt her." and so on. But this feeling of anger was coming back again and again and I separated my self more and more from the group. It's like a metaphor of this anger: "To innerly cry out loud but to sit outwardly silently around".
Also when my friend tried to talk to me, and asked me how am I, anything was fine I said, when it was not, because I cannot talk in groups openly about my feelings: "Someone could hear something [about my weakness]."

Later on, still in the bar, my machine wanted to go home, has been tired and my friend (A) liked to go on another party, she gave instructions to another friend (B), but well didn't talk to my machine, anger has been rising, she wanted to give a hug, but my machine turned around (so as, my machine hasn't seen her) and went straight out of the bar. And IT walked with B back to her flat.
It is a feeling when I'm running away I cannot describe, it is rather strong, like: now you have the chance to hurt her, run away, don't say anything to her. Sometimes it has been possible for me to get it under control, to stay.

I tried to sleep but thoughts have been coming back again and again, like a drum machine, where negative thoughts arising against my friend (A), what could IT say to hurt her before IT is travelling back home, or just to clean any sign that we have been friends (a picture I drew for her) or just simply to pack the stuff an travel home, she will see…

Another time later these thoughts have been vanished where I could more clearly see that it all has been internal consideration and identification. And I read: "I will persist until I succeed", so I had hope: try to observe IT. But as my friend came back home, these thoughts have also been risen again, slowly but constantly. And so it followed the next day, we did a brunch, new other people in a new group, I tried to take part in, to talk, but slowly I trapped back in the same pattern of the day before, rejected myself from the group, withdrew into myself. My friend didn't -acknowledge- myself etc. (again we didn't talk). Until I wanted to travel home and say good bye to my friend, the strong feeling came back -run away- and gave her a cold hug and on the rhetorical question, "we stay in contact?" I only gave back "maybe" and ran away.



Afterwards I felt ashamed and sorry about the situation, I'm such a fool, couldn't help it and have hurt her again. Suicidally thoughts were arisen make an end, jump down the bridge. Nothing made sense.



Somehow it seems, that this program has a strong connection to narcissistic programs: like silent treatment or "mind reading" (Pressman and Pressman: The narcissistic family), or an dependency of approval from others. Also my other threads seem to go in the same direction. And this program has been as far as I remember the easiest solution to get rid of problems, to run.
From a distance this program looks to me like a kid who didn't get the cookie.

I would appreciate any insight. And how could I stand next occurring situations, where I would run away? Thanks.

Hi abcdefghiJoerg

I also have very similar programs, just as strong and have 'run away' many times in the past. Infact even this weekend at my girlfriends my 'run away' program was kicking in.
fwiw it may be best you don't drink because that program would have total run of me when I did.
I will try and share what I have learnt so far about it (in my case at least), but it is still a work in progress (which I'd forgotten about until reading your post!)

The key themes are:
Rejection (specifically feminine), social isolation, vampiric feeding and depression.
To be more specific, have you noticed how it always ends in isolation and depression?

To help get you out of the depression to start with this thread may help Depression As A Stepping Stone (to Soul Growth), also read over the diet and health sections main topics as this has helped me deal with my energy levels/depressive states of mind.
If they don't help, this is the main starting point to be able to regain perspective. Cognative behavioural therapy is another good option.

If you have not yet read Trapped in the Mirror I highly recommend it because it is (at least for me) shining a very bright light on most of the key issues. Among many things is the definition of the Negative Introject, the internalised narcissistic parent(s) that beats you up for what you've done, guides your actions and generally runs your thoughts and feelings in the same way the narcissistic elements of your parents did.
This is one of the key elements that behind this program.
It is a repeat of what your parents did to you, just without them around.

The second core element within the desire to 'get back/hurt her' is not only the negative introject but the idea of vampiric feeding (have you read unholy hungers?). This is why the program is stronger when you are tired/depressed/run down/drunk etc....the less energy you have the easier it is for it to drain yours so you feel that 'edge of oblivion' below the surface and start draining others. After some energy returns (usually from sleep) you realise what you've done and it continues to feed of you internally from the guilt.......you beat yourself up and bleed yourself dry.

Ok, so the behaviour suggests the following (repeated) trauma...(and please note that the key 4 recommended psychology books will do a better job at describing this than I can) most likely your mother in some shape or form rejected you from an early age. More than likely when you wanted attention from her (which is perfectly normal), and perhaps even in a large social situation......did she host party's where she rejected/mocked you as a child perhaps?
You will have to work out where this came from....

So because of this trauma, you learnt to reject others first (especially women you are close too). Whenever something happened that reminded you (unconsciously) of your childhood trauma you start to distance yourself from the woman.
The key to remember is, it is you that is distancing yourself from them in most cases! With the distance you put in place comes the feelings (fear and anger too) of rejection.
By isolating yourself (to protect from rejection), you start to feel alone and rejected. You want someone to see your pain and come and save you (your mother). They don't.

So with the sense of rejection you feel from this person, comes anger and pain and fear, and you feel it is Them that has given you this pain. When infact this is just pain from an old wound and nothing to do with the other person, other than they reminded you of it.
So you do what you always did and 'run away', with the self inflicted isolation comes the negative introject and vampiric feeding, first on yourself then on the person when you reject them (And do what you parent use to do), then the horror of realisation and more feeding off yourself, culminating in depression.
If they are hurt and 'run away' too it can go back and forth many times.

The anger is most likely the unresolved anger at being rejected as a child, who couldn't be angry at being rejected through mortal fear of having his life support from his parent denied. Love and hate.

The way out of this I've taken so far is to monitor and increase my energy levels so as to obtain enough of an overview of a situation (through diet and meditation). Reading the big 4 books and observing myself, putting the peaces together and matching them against my current and remembered behaviour. Most of all having a lot of forgiveness for myself and parents and others and beating myself up/feeding off myself (because ultimately that's all the predator exists to do), and even if I do trip up, forgiving myself and doing my best to learn from it/spot what I missed (in a positive way). This has started to cultivate a sense of (what I can only describe as) hope and self support, which helps me carry on observing and learning and understanding.

To see what your doing means with the right understanding you can start to change your behaviour (just remember you may not be able to tackle this big core issue instantly, nor all in one go). Hopefully I've managed to highlight it reasonably clearly. Hang on in there! :)

*edit*

I've just realised through writing this that the sense of forgiveness is more a sense of unconditional support/acceptence (and love?) through understanding. What my inner child needed/needs, someone to accept them for who they are unconditionally. :)

Hi Abcd,

I try to describe a program/situation, which seems to me a mayor one of my machine and causes problems in my relationships.

Click to expand...

After reading your story, it seems that the issue is not running away, but jealousy, have you thought about that? you also seem to run some big self-pity programming.

Running away is mostly a smaller program, part of an already running huge program, if you are jealous, or if you hate someone very much, such programs initiate effects like running away/revenge, because you are either to hurt to deal with the situation, or you feel like completly lost and think that the only way out would be running away.

it seems it is mostly triggered from rejection(jealousy?) ( you don't get any attention, or little attention, you do not know the people and feel an outsider , isolated.)

or an dependency of approval from others.

Click to expand...

exactly, that is what it looks like.

I want to tell you that, I also have experienced similair programming and still do , and those programs eventually lead to the feeling which says ''I want to run away''

We are looking for an easy way out, we think that running away will solve our problems, but do you really think it will? It's just a denying of a problem, and running away delays your chance to understand it.


some part of the C's who talk about relocation/running away.

Q: (J) Well, that's not such a bad combination. (T) Yeah, I'm working
on that... (V) We all have our crosses to bear... (L) T*** now has a
plan where he is going
to... his relationship has led to other situations that have caused
unpleasantness in his life; he is now going to travel half-way across
the country to escape this...
A: Repeating syndrome.
Q: (T) No matter where you go, there YOU are. (L) The scenery may
change, but you will be the same with the same problems until you
change yourself. (T) It is really because I know I can support myself
better out there and I know that we can support ourselves better out

there.
A: How do you know that?
Q: (T) Because I have checked with the papers, I have looked at
what is out there... There's more jobs out there, there's more
apartments, more opportunity, better chance to really get ahead....
(L) Who are you trying to convince?
A: Really???
Q: (T) I just feel like it's time for a change.
A: You have felt that way often before.
Q: (T) Okay, let me ask this: could I have some kind of place out
there, do something that needs to be done out there?
A: Many have lived under the illusion that relocation improves
destiny. All have failed.
Q: (L) If you can't succeed where you are, you probably won't
succeed anywhere else. (J) You always carry yourself with you
wherever you go. If you are what's
wrong, moving doesn't change that. (L) And, in fact, it can make
things worse. (T) Yeah, you lose a lot because you lose your
connections and contacts, your
support system, your network, everything. (T) Well, part of it is that I
just want to go. (L) Maybe wanting to go is part of your problem. (J)
Are you running away?
(T) No. (L) Is ***_ running away?
A: [T*** gets on board.] Yes.
Q: (L) Is there anything you can tell T***....

A: The community he is considering is much more 3rd density. It is
not metaphysically oriented.
Q: (L) In other words, if he moves, he will get more in the soup?
[break for discussion] T*** thinks he can make it work... comments
please.
A: Well, this plan is related to and contingent on shaky emotional
considerations. His relationship is unstable and that is at the root of
the issue.
Q: (T) What do I have to do to make the relationship stable? (V) Oh,
the youngsters! "We are going to make this square peg fit into this
round hole no matter what!"
A: Open.
Q: (T) Can you give me a hint as to what I need to do... (L) What
they are saying is that you can't make this relationship stable... (J)
Either it is or it isn't.
A: Let T*** decide.
Q: (T) Let me just ask this... can I make this relationship stable?
A: Discover. But moving won't accomplish this.
Q: (T) I know I can make this work, but should I stay here?
A: Better chance of survival of the relationship if you remain and
work things out.

Click to expand...

If you can find what leads to this exact running away program, and to try to understand THAT.

it's like trying to trow all the water away with a bucket without you thinking about just closing the Tap.

Wow, I'd completely forgotten about the jealousy aspect! Talk about it hitting you right between the eyes.
I use to get Incredibly jealous!

I even read about what you wrote on the subject some time ago Bo, in this thread.

Bo said:

What I tried to become more aware of jealousy, is by first learning what it is, after this step I observed myself, and waited until it showed itself. After I have felt jealousy I could combine it with the knowledge I have.
So the next time I get jealous I will remember this particular feeling and try to repress it, to put this servant back in place before it escalates and creates chaos. Some people can deal better with jealousy then other, the ones who can't deal very well with jealousy are usually I think people who are traumatised on trust, and people who have a very low self-esteem.

Click to expand...

I've always run into trouble (and perhaps this is a language thing) with repressing emotions.....do you mean try and hold it under control (it still has its power), or disarm it (take its power away)?

Now I've been reminded of these things I'd try disarming it by reminding myself that jealousy (the demand for something/sense of utter entitlement) is probably a left over from not having (genuine) needs met as a young child.....as a child it is necessary for survival/development, as an adult narcissistic/STS. Remembering that sense of self support I've been cultivating to support my inner child would hopefully disarm it then.
Or am I seeing this wrong?

RedFox said:

Rejection (specifically feminine), social isolation, vampiric feeding and depression.
To be more specific, have you noticed how it always ends in isolation and depression?

To help get you out of the depression to start with this thread may help Depression As A Stepping Stone (to Soul Growth), also read over the diet and health sections main topics as this has helped me deal with my energy levels/depressive states of mind.
If they don't help, this is the main starting point to be able to regain perspective. Cognative behavioural therapy is another good option.

Click to expand...

Yes you are right it leads to depression and also a negative world view. I'm planning and planned to reread this thread.
I started some days ago this thread: Detoxify or Die Cookbook, because I thought it is a good introduction and gives me an small overview. I will work on the stickie threads next, because my body seems really in need to detoxify.
What I found out in the first pages is, that my body must suffer from -caliac disease-, because I'm unable to gain weight, it doesn't matter how much I eat and it is standing in combination with diabetes type I.

RedFox said:

If you have not yet read Trapped in the Mirror I highly recommend it because it is (at least for me) shining a very bright light on most of the key issues. Among many things is the definition of the Negative Introject, the internalised narcissistic parent(s) that beats you up for what you've done, guides your actions and generally runs your thoughts and feelings in the same way the narcissistic elements of your parents did.
This is one of the key elements that behind this program.
It is a repeat of what your parents did to you, just without them around.

The second core element within the desire to 'get back/hurt her' is not only the negative introject but the idea of vampiric feeding (have you read unholy hungers?). This is why the program is stronger when you are tired/depressed/run down/drunk etc....the less energy you have the easier it is for it to drain yours so you feel that 'edge of oblivion' below the surface and start draining others. After some energy returns (usually from sleep) you realise what you've done and it continues to feed of you internally from the guilt.......you beat yourself up and bleed yourself dry.

Ok, so the behaviour suggests the following (repeated) trauma...(and please note that the key 4 recommended psychology books will do a better job at describing this than I can) most likely your mother in some shape or form rejected you from an early age. More than likely when you wanted attention from her (which is perfectly normal), and perhaps even in a large social situation......did she host party's where she rejected/mocked you as a child perhaps?
[…]
The anger is most likely the unresolved anger at being rejected as a child, who couldn't be angry at being rejected through mortal fear of having his life support from his parent denied. Love and hate.

Click to expand...

I read the big four books and also one week ago, the recommended thread (again), where I try not to identify with IT.
As you wrote, when the energy is low, their is almost no chance anymore for fighting against the negative introject. Unholy Hungers I like partially to reread, to work it through the stickied notes I have made.
As far as I could find out, I have been not welcomed as a child and my memory of my childhood is almost black.

RedFox said:

You want someone to see your pain and come and save you (your mother). They don't.

Click to expand...

This is absolutely fitting. Often I'm running then in the pity-me mood, oh well to wait for someone where my predator can feed on. As you mention it, I remember how I must have been looking, like: "the poor little guy".
Also the upcoming suicide-thoughts are then the peak, to cry out for help.

Redfox said:

Hopefully I've managed to highlight it reasonably clearly. Hang on in there! :)

Click to expand...

You really have RedFox, thank you for this.

Bo said:

I try to describe a program/situation, which seems to me a mayor one of my machine and causes problems in my relationships.

Click to expand...

After reading your story, it seems that the issue is not running away, but jealousy, have you thought about that? you also seem to run some big self-pity programming.

Click to expand...

Jealousy has been going through my mind as I wrote the entry post, there the program seems to be sitting. When I remember the weekend it really has the touch of it.

Bo said:

Running away is mostly a smaller program, part of an already running huge program, if you are jealous, or if you hate someone very much, such programs initiate effects like running away/revenge, because you are either to hurt to deal with the situation, or you feel like completly lost and think that the only way out would be running away.

Click to expand...

You are right, because -running away- is the last bit of the program, of what happened before.

Bo said:

I want to tell you that, I also have experienced similair programming and still do , and those programs eventually lead to the feeling which says ''I want to run away''

We are looking for an easy way out, we think that running away will solve our problems, but do you really think it will?

Click to expand...

No it doesn't, but how can I stand it, the problem(s)? Denying has been going through my head in the last weeks, because I'm putting almost everything in my life away. Which then often also leads to distraction/daydreaming something to look for what feels good.

Bo said:

some part of the C's who talk about relocation/running away.

Click to expand...

The C's quote is very fitting on my behaviour, I have done the same and still missing to confront myself.

Also thank you Bo!

do you mean try and hold it under control (it still has its power), or disarm it (take its power away)?

Click to expand...

As with all programs, you are eventually supposed to hold it under control(it still has its power) but you are the one in control at that moment and not IT, you are showing IT his place, when all programs are eventually put in their place , there will be one I who controls everything and who is conscious of his entire being and who understands his feelings and everything that resolves around it etc , the point is then that all these I's jealousy, self-pity etc, FUSE into one I.

or you need to completly terminate a program depending on the program, such as lazyness.

The more you start to understand about how you react while you are jealous , the more you pay close attention to jealousy , the more you start to know ''it'', at some point, you can even seriously predict when IT shows up.

So much knowledges makes it ofcourse a bit easier to control your jealousy.

In order to hold it under control, you first have to know a great deal about this program, which means , a lot of observations about it,

see Jealousy for a moment as an enemy, in order to defeat your enemy, you must first know/understand your enemy, who is he? , Why is he like that? etc etc.

Answers these questions for yourself; do them after you have really observed jealousy.

* When do you become Jealous?

- Someone got a bigger car?
- Lack of given attention?
- something else?

* What do you feel when you are Jealous?
- angry?
- Isolated?

* How do react when you are jealous?
- Yelling?
- Isolating yourself?
- etc.

* What is it that bothers you about jealousy?

* What is it that you want to improve?

The point of these questions are so that you can have a goal, on what you want to achieve regarding a particular program, now you want for example to hold it under control.

When you know WHEN/HOW/WHY about jealousy, you will then be ready to repress it before it escaltes and creates chaos within or outside.

When resisting, you will feel pressure on your solar plexus, it will make you angry or sad, but this is what happens whenever you actually try to do what the predator does not like(like repressing a program), this is a part that you have to persist trough.

In the beginning it will be difficult and the more you persist the easier it will become.

probably a left over from not having (genuine) needs met as a young child.....as a child it is necessary for survival/development, as an adult narcissistic/STS.

Click to expand...

I could not have said it any better.

Remembering that sense of self support

Click to expand...

There is something that I would like to add about self-support;

Self-support is extremely important when you want to deal with programs, whenever you succeed in repressing or holding a certain program under control, even if you succeed one day in doing this! you should reward yourself, talk to yourself as like ''Good job!!!'' etc.

The more you do this, it will also hopefully motivate you in continuing to understand a certain program.

hi Joerg,

Seems to me that the fact you can articulate your recent problem here on the forum means that your perspective is already changing and becoming clearer.

I have been not welcomed as a child and my memory of my childhood is almost black.

Click to expand...

I can sympathise with you there. I was also an unwanted child, but while my childhood wasn't 'black' per se, it wasn't easy or comfortable either. So when Redfox wrote this:

Most of all having a lot of forgiveness for myself and parents and others and beating myself up/feeding off myself (because ultimately that's all the predator exists to do), and even if I do trip up, forgiving myself and doing my best to learn from it/spot what I missed (in a positive way). This has started to cultivate a sense of (what I can only describe as) hope and self support, which helps me carry on observing and learning and understanding.

Click to expand...

it really struck a chord. It isn't easy forgiving people who hurt one, at least not for me, so it has taken a long time for me to reach the place where I am absolutely sure that the forgivness is now sincere. My childhood memories needed a lot of resolving, so I can empathise with you. I really hope you can do as Redfox suggested - stop beating yourself up, forgive yourself, and then work towards forgiving your parents and family.

[quote author=Redfox]*edit*

I've just realised through writing this that the sense of forgiveness is more a sense of unconditional support/acceptence (and love?) through understanding. What my inner child needed/needs, someone to accept them for who they are unconditionally. [/quote]

There is a lot of wisdom in this quote (my bold). It just takes some of us longer to get there. :)

Joerg said:

I knew beforehand that it could cause trouble when I'm travelling to my friend, but in my naivety I said maybe I can observe something this time [description next paragraph].

Click to expand...

It's not naivete because you really did observe something, you just allowed it to overcome you. Have you tried distancing yourself from it? Instead of acknowledging it and then focusing/dwelling on it, which makes the program grow in power because it is being validated as something that has power and influence, what if you just acknowledge it but shrug it off with more of a scientific curiosity, as an observer rather as someone participating with it. You observed that it starts out small, but the more attention/focus you give it, the more it grows and overcomes your mind and emotions, and you begin to identify with it and think that this IS you, this is how *you* feel, and there's nothing you can do to get out of that. Well, if you come at it from the perspective that it's not really you, it may help. Try doing that with physical pain too - if you have a headache or something, instead of letting it make you become "miserable" and engulf your whole being into a state of misery and discomfort, just detach, and observe it like a scientist observing a curious scientific specimen. It's not you that is hurting, it's just a part of your body, which isn't even your body you're just riding around in it like a big fleshy mechanized suit really.

If you think about what happened now, when your mind is refreshed and distanced from the specific social situation, as you said, you feel how absurd that behavior and thinking/feeling was, and how self-defeating it is and how it created the very problem you were afraid of like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Well you are not afraid of it at this moment, right? Can you imagine hanging out with the same or a different friend while totally relaxed, having fun, enjoying the moment? Have you ever done that with anyone? If so, that's your default state, and whatever happened with your current friend didn't really happen, it was all in your head, it could've just as easily not happened and you would've been perfectly happy and enjoying yourself. All those feelings you felt about rejection and isolation and not being validated is an illusion brought on by that program, and it made you behave in a way that is foreign to who you are, as all programs and conditioning does.

Programs are like scars - things that happened to us in childhood that hurt is then, but are silly and easy to deal with as adults - if the program wasn't there that is. But just as it hurts when you flick a scar, it hurts when an emotional or psychological scar is flicked or you even think it *might* be flicked, and a little flick is totally painless and harmless.

When you feel good about yourself, when you are happy and not at all worried or concerned about rejection or being judged, this is your default state, a state of self-esteem - before it gets mangled during childhood and replaced with ego. In fact, right now we cannot really experience that, even our happiness is fake. There is a very crucial difference between self-esteem and ego. Self-esteem is the unconditional acceptance of yourself without judgement and without any need to "measure up" to anything or anyone. Ego, on the other hand, is a false installation, it is a way to "prove" our own self worth to ourselves by external markers - by looking at evidence outside of ourselves like the opinions of others, our "accomplishments", rationalizations, and comparing ourselves to others and their accomplishments, etc. This is ego, something that we are brainwashed to adopt in *place* of our self-esteem. This ego thing is a black hole because it is never satisfied and never fulfilled, it is always looking for "validation" and "proof" and it will NEVER find enough to its satisfaction because there's always more/better/faster/cooler/prettier/funner and you'll never feel happy. Real self-esteem is self-sustaining, it needs no external reasons to exist, and it is our default state.

From what I understand what happens is we're hurt as children and that gives us a wound, and we create a big ball of ego protection that we wrap around this wound (all such wounds). We can't deal with it at the time, so our mind has a defense mechanism to protect us from the wound, and that's where that program comes from, it is literally wrapped around the wound and whenever we come close to facing that wound, we instead just see/feel/think what is contained in the ball of protection our mind put around this wound, preventing us from seeing the wound itself as it really is. If we did, we'd realize it is something that is very silly and harmless to us as adults now, and we'd be shocked that we ever needed protection for something so silly! But such a little silly thing can easily create such a powerful and emotionally gripping end-of-the-world-I-gotta-kill-myself-now program.

The way ego gets involved is by preventing us from being able to ever see that there is a wound, a weakness. Instead it rationalizes, because seeing the wound means acknowledging its existance, which means its a "weakness" and that will make you self pity or self loathe (judge yourself), because your way to feel good about yourself is currently wired through the ego and not through self-esteem, through judging of yourself as "powerful" and "capable". See how it's a foreign mechanism and NOT the default state we're born with?

Any kind of "neediness" or desire for validation from others just so you can feel good in their company, and good about yourself, is from this false ego. It makes you feel cut-off from others, all social interaction becomes completely not legitimate but a game, a way to gain or lose status, a way to be liked and minimize being "disliked", a way to be accepted, a way to impress others, a way to "measure up" and be "cool" or part of the crowd. There is not one genuine thing about it, and unless we can let that go, it'll always be this illusory battle and struggle to gain an illusory "happiness" that, if we really think about it, we never lost in the first place! Not to mention it is self-defeating - the more you "try" to fit in and make people like you, the more fake you are and the more you just try to "cater" to their interests instead of presenting yourself as someone who has your own interest and sense of self, you become a social chameleon and others lose interest as it comes off non-genuine. And the cycle feeds itself until you're miserable and don't realize you just did that all by yourself.

So just let it go man, don't enter an interaction with expectations of an outcome. You are a great guy that is preoccupied and stifled by ego-based programs that prevent you from relaxing and just "being yourself", which if you did that, would in fact be very attractive to not just females but everyone else too. Good, interesting, and genuine people are attracted to other good, interesting, and genuine people. If someone is trying to feed on you and put you down, do you want that kind of person as a friend anyway? And if you can just relax and understand that you already have everything you need to be happy, to not *need* others to validate you, you will be able to, over time, allow your real self to start to come through. And as if by magic, once you STOP caring about what others think (internal considering), others will be far more open and find you much more interesting and will enjoy spending time with you, since you'll stop acting through all those programs which will allow your "likeable" natural, REAL self to come out from its shell of ego-based fear and illusory paranoia.

My advice would be to go out more and spend time talking to people, getting to know new people, and let those programs come out into the open and learn to address them, don't hide, don't run from them. Work towards loosening up, not caring about judgements. And when people do "make fun of you" or make jokes as people often do to each other in social situations, don't let any of it penetrate the skin, learn to laugh at yourself and make jokes too. But just as you do not need others to feel good about yourself, you should not allow someone else to make you feel bad about yourself! When it's a serious comment from someone you know to have a clue, yes take it seriously and consider it carefully - I'm not saying not to network and accept mirrors and not to analyze yourself, I'm saying don't let it bother you and make you feel like it diminishes you in any way, if anything, it can only work to uplift you and make you more aware of your programs.

Remember what C's said - positive mental attitude. And if you're able to achieve a state where you have a developed self-esteem, it actually allows you to see and question your programs (your inner wounds) much more easily without being bothered and thrown into a state of self-destructive depression and self-judgements like self-loathing and pity. The more psychologically healthy you are, the faster your progress towards even greater psychological health becomes since you have less and less inner resistance to the Work.

Hope that helps, don't forget that life should be fun, and if you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong. Yes, challenges, learning, and facing your own wounded self is fun, although uncomfortable at times. PMA dude! Life is short, how many years do you want to waste being so stifled you cannot even move?

Hi SAO

I just wanted to thank you for your post as I'm finding it very insightful!

SAO said:

It's not naivete because you really did observe something, you just allowed it to overcome you. Have you tried distancing yourself from it? Instead of acknowledging it and then focusing/dwelling on it, which makes the program grow in power because it is being validated as something that has power and influence, what if you just acknowledge it but shrug it off with more of a scientific curiosity, as an observer rather as someone participating with it. You observed that it starts out small, but the more attention/focus you give it, the more it grows and overcomes your mind and emotions, and you begin to identify with it and think that this IS you, this is how *you* feel, and there's nothing you can do to get out of that. Well, if you come at it from the perspective that it's not really you, it may help. Try doing that with physical pain too - if you have a headache or something, instead of letting it make you become "miserable" and engulf your whole being into a state of misery and discomfort, just detach, and observe it like a scientist observing a curious scientific specimen. It's not you that is hurting, it's just a part of your body, which isn't even your body you're just riding around in it like a big fleshy mechanized suit really.

Click to expand...

I was going to ask such things as how do you do this without disassociating? Is it simply not identifying with it?
Then I read it again, and again.....and realised you'd already answered my questions and I'd not read it properly.....I made a similar mistake with several posts this morning (miss reading them)....
The closest I can come to what this may be is about halfway through Trapped in the Mirror, she mentions a women (who sells houses) having her mind go blank when trying to find her way with a client to a house she is to sell. The negative introject silently making your head go fuzzy.
Applying the above to this is helping no end.....but it does feel a bit like catching a dragon by its tail! :/ Weird

Hi all,

A couple of parts of this thread jumped out at me. First of all, thinking about "riding around in...a big fleshy mechanized suit" really made me smile. I can relate to abcdefghiJoerg's feelings, so I wanted to share my feelings a little bit and a couple of strategies that I find useful. RedFox mentioned the Depression as a stepping stone thread, and suggested a read through the health/diet topics, so I know this isn't new information, but I want to share my observations in the hope that it will help.

My experience is similar. I frequently talk myself out of social situations on the pretense that I have too much work to do and don't have the time, or I can't afford the extra expense, or I say that I'd rather be alone. More often than not however, I end up then feeling lonely or isolated (after I just isolated myself), so I look to escape by watching a movie or something like that. As you might guess, this only makes me feel more isolated and down, until I end up depressed (angry at myself). As has been discussed elsewhere on the forums and earlier in this thread.

As SAO says above, I've noticed that focusing or dwelling on the program once you see it gives it alot of power. After the program is done:

[quote author=abcdefghiJoerg]I felt ashamed and sorry about the situation, I'm such a fool, couldn't help it and have hurt her again.[/quote]

This is the trap that ends with me being depressed (angry at myself) and moping for days.

This is really good advice:

[quote author=SAO]Instead of acknowledging it and then focusing/dwelling on it, which makes the program grow in power because it is being validated as something that has power and influence, what if you just acknowledge it but shrug it off with more of a scientific curiosity, as an observer rather as someone participating with it.[/quote]

and this

[quote author=SAO]If you think about what happened now, when your mind is refreshed and distanced from the specific social situation, as you said, you feel how absurd that behavior and thinking/feeling was, and how self-defeating it is and how it created the very problem you were afraid of like a self-fulfilling prophecy...
...And the cycle feeds itself until you're miserable and don't realize you just did that all by yourself.[/quote]

Several threads on the forum suggest writing in a journal (although I haven't located a "Journaling Thread"), so I've been doing just that. Usually after the program is done running and the damage is done, when I'm in that place where I can "feel how absurd that behavior and thinking/feeling was", if I sit down and write about it, the act of putting it on paper helps me to detach myself from the behavior/feelings. This is helping me to at least see the cycle of:

run program -> realize what happened -> beat myself up about it and feel worse -> run self pity program -> repeat

My intention is to use the journal as a way to observe and record after the fact and to look for connections to earlier events that may have triggered the feeling/behavior. I'm trying to get past the feeling that "someone wronged me" or "I really messed up" to ask myself "why did that happen?" or "what deeper feeling or past experience could have triggered that?". When I try to do that in my head I find myself going around in circles and dwelling on what happened, whereas writing seems to help me process it and let it go. Writing in the journal is also helping me to remember important things (like the adivce given in this thread). I've found myself writing in it three or four times a day, usually short notes, whenever the urge strikes me or when I think of something I want to come back to later. I can't find the link right now, but I think I saw an article on SoTT recently about a study that found that writing uses a different part of your brain than talking, so that could be why it helps to write things down. (I will look for the link).

I also wanted to mention that daily exercise really helps me keep my energy level up (after I've gotten plenty of sleep), and the release of endorphines that I get from a good run gives me a little boost that can help me to get out of a funk. Sitting inside, wrestling with my feelings and tying myself up in knots is not very much fun. Exercise is fun, and it makes me smile and gets me MOVING and helps me loosen up.

This thread has been eye opening for me, I hope my thoughts and observations are helpful.

Thanks SAO there is much, much food for thought in your post!

SAO said:

Have you tried distancing yourself from it? Instead of acknowledging it and then focusing/dwelling on it, which makes the program grow in power because it is being validated as something that has power and influence, what if you just acknowledge it but shrug it off with more of a scientific curiosity, as an observer rather as someone participating with it. You observed that it starts out small, but the more attention/focus you give it, the more it grows and overcomes your mind and emotions, and you begin to identify with it and think that this IS you, this is how *you* feel, and there's nothing you can do to get out of that.

Click to expand...

This is on what I'm trying to do, to observe my self, for example when my body has a pain, as you suggested. But most often I start to think that I observe IT, or simply get identified with the inner talking, which seems the more difficult part to observe.

SAO said:

This ego thing is a black hole because it is never satisfied and never fulfilled, it is always looking for "validation" and "proof" and it will NEVER find enough to its satisfaction because there's always more/better/faster/cooler/prettier/funner and you'll never feel happy.

Click to expand...

Yes, one part is always hungry and looking for new food, but IT never gets satisfied by what it gets.

There comes Barbara E. Hort in my mind:

Unholy Hungers p.16 said:

More. No matter how much we have, it's never enough. Since we've been bled of what really counts, our hunger for everything is bottomless. We feel driven to consume goods, experiences, and people as if we were starving, as if those substitutes for life force would somehow fill the void.

Click to expand...

SAO said:

Any kind of "neediness" or desire for validation from others just so you can feel good in their company, and good about yourself, is from this false ego. It makes you feel cut-off from others, all social interaction becomes completely not legitimate but a game, a way to gain or lose status, a way to be liked and minimize being "disliked", a way to be accepted, a way to impress others, a way to "measure up" and be "cool" or part of the crowd.[…]

So just let it go man, don't enter an interaction with expectations of an outcome. You are a great guy that is preoccupied and stifled by ego-based programs that prevent you from relaxing and just "being yourself", which if you did that, would in fact be very attractive to not just females but everyone else too. […] And if you can just relax and understand that you already have everything you need to be happy, to not *need* others to validate you, you will be able to, over time, allow your real self to start to come through. And as if by magic, once you STOP caring about what others think (internal considering), others will be far more open and find you much more interesting and will enjoy spending time with you, since you'll stop acting through all those programs which will allow your "likeable" natural, REAL self to come out from its shell of ego-based fear and illusory paranoia.

Click to expand...

It's also a simply waste of energy what I observed so far, instead of doing something useful, I'm full absorbed with self-pity and so on. It's really like a different state not to worry to "be not ego", when things are possible, I never thought I could do in the -ego-state-. Many things are much easier, because the energy is directed where it is used to be.
And yes, I know this state, actually through this state I met my friend and many other genuine people too.

SAO said:

My advice would be to go out more and spend time talking to people, getting to know new people, and let those programs come out into the open and learn to address them, don't hide, don't run from them. Work towards loosening up, not caring about judgements. And when people do "make fun of you" or make jokes as people often do to each other in social situations, don't let any of it penetrate the skin, learn to laugh at yourself and make jokes too. But just as you do not need others to feel good about yourself, you should not allow someone else to make you feel bad about yourself! When it's a serious comment from someone you know to have a clue, yes take it seriously and consider it carefully - I'm not saying not to network and accept mirrors and not to analyze yourself, I'm saying don't let it bother you and make you feel like it diminishes you in any way, if anything, it can only work to uplift you and make you more aware of your programs.
[…]
Hope that helps, don't forget that life should be fun, and if you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong. Yes, challenges, learning, and facing your own wounded self is fun, although uncomfortable at times. PMA dude! Life is short, how many years do you want to waste being so stifled you cannot even move?

Click to expand...

I'm working on it, forcing my self to get out to meet people, go to partys. And to enjoy my life even more, through the lessons I can learn.
Somehow I lost this fun-factor a little bit over the time (maybe created a new buffer, my friend reminded me sometimes: "Where is this funny guy, I once met?"), mainly I think in what is going on on BBM.

But thanks again SAO.

Seamas said:

although I haven't located a "Journaling Thread"

Click to expand...

Hi Seamas have you read this thread? Journals and the work

And I think your advice is very good, I'm using it also and helps me to distance from what is going on in myself. Bo suggested it also somewhere, just to write things down, when they are coming up.

abcdefghiJoerg,

Thanks for the link, thats just the thread I was thinking of.

SAO said:

It's not naivete because you really did observe something, you just allowed it to overcome you. Have you tried distancing yourself from it? Instead of acknowledging it and then focusing/dwelling on it, which makes the program grow in power because it is being validated as something that has power and influence, what if you just acknowledge it but shrug it off with more of a scientific curiosity, as an observer rather as someone participating with it....snipped

Click to expand...

Thank you SAO - this is one of the best reminders I ever read on this forum... Living Force label well earned ;)

SAO said:

Have you tried distancing yourself from it? Instead of acknowledging it and then focusing/dwelling on it, which makes the program grow in power because it is being validated as something that has power and influence, what if you just acknowledge it but shrug it off with more of a scientific curiosity, as an observer rather as someone participating with it.

There is a very crucial difference between self-esteem and ego. Self-esteem is the unconditional acceptance of yourself without judgement and without any need to "measure up" to anything or anyone. Ego, on the other hand, is a false installation, it is a way to "prove" our own self worth to ourselves by external markers - by looking at evidence outside of ourselves like the opinions of others, our "accomplishments", rationalizations, and comparing ourselves to others and their accomplishments, etc. This is ego, something that we are brainwashed to adopt in *place* of our self-esteem. This ego thing is a black hole because it is never satisfied and never fulfilled, it is always looking for "validation" and "proof" and it will NEVER find enough to its satisfaction because there's always more/better/faster/cooler/prettier/funner and you'll never feel happy. Real self-esteem is self-sustaining, it needs no external reasons to exist, and it is our default state.


The way ego gets involved is by preventing us from being able to ever see that there is a wound, a weakness. Instead it rationalizes, because seeing the wound means acknowledging its existance, which means its a "weakness" and that will make you self pity or self loathe (judge yourself), because your way to feel good about yourself is currently wired through the ego and not through self-esteem, through judging of yourself as "powerful" and "capable". See how it's a foreign mechanism and NOT the default state we're born with?



And if you can just relax and understand that you already have everything you need to be happy, to not *need* others to validate you, you will be able to, over time, allow your real self to start to come through. And as if by magic, once you STOP caring about what others think (internal considering), others will be far more open and find you much more interesting and will enjoy spending time with you, since you'll stop acting through all those programs which will allow your "likeable" natural, REAL self to come out from its shell of ego-based fear and illusory paranoia.



Remember what C's said - positive mental attitude. And if you're able to achieve a state where you have a developed self-esteem, it actually allows you to see and question your programs (your inner wounds) much more easily without being bothered and thrown into a state of self-destructive depression and self-judgements like self-loathing and pity. The more psychologically healthy you are, the faster your progress towards even greater psychological health becomes since you have less and less inner resistance to the Work.

Click to expand...

Just want to say I find a very great insight on what you say here Sao.

Thank you for give it to us

Thank you SAO. We are our own worst enemy when it comes to the work!