Questions About Languages

[GotoGo]

Thank you for you input, Blomlast!

I was exploring my speculating point:

3) And the result of this merge the appearance of "out of Kantek" is totally ERASED. 

yesterday night, questioning WHY "the early shamans of East Asia" descendant does not have appearance of Kantek anymore while "the circle-people of Europe" descendant kept trace of Kantek in their appearance?  I felt there are some "manipulative intentions" behind.   

Q: (L) Okay. So the next question is: The putative Nostratic speakers in East Asia include the Asians that I think were the original shamans which I've discussed in Secret History and elsewhere, Altaic speakers in particular. So if this is the case, and if Nostratic as a linguistic group can be correlated with an original population from Kantek, does that mean that both the early shamans of East Asia and the circle-people of Europe (with the pyramid people further south) have their origins on Kantek?

A: Yes.

So "Epistasis" and "population bottleneck (or genetic bottleneck)" gave me great hints! 

[GotoGo]

If you are interested in books about historical linguistics in general, then I would recommend 'Historical Linguistics: An Introduction' by Lyle Campbell and 'A Guide to the World's Languages - Volume 1: Classification' by Merritt Ruhlen.  These should get you started.

Thank you shijing, these 2 books are now in my next book order list. 

[Ljubica]

Hello Shijing,

Thanks, I absolutely agree with you but couple things are bothering me:
1-Vocabulary intermix in different languages during long period of time
2-Mutations of one and same linguistic bases when isolate
3-No written artifacts for both of languages (ARAWAK and AINU) except last century.
Ainu is pretty nice documented verbally thanks to its geographical isolation alas, Arawak is contaminated with colonial influences, paleo Indian influences from South America and almost forgotten in NE Caribbean parts and I could get only fragments on official sites related to Arawak cultures (local variables from island state to island state are immense). Bask is interesting for me because having lot of similarities with Ainu and some interesting similarities with some tribes in Brazil (lot of official sites cover their linguistic), perhaps reason for similarities could be globalization during Atlantean classical culture (60000 years of one mega culture is more than enough to make HOT LINGUISTICAL SOUP) and I don't know how to bring both Ainu and Arawak culture closer right now except with perhaps cultural & religious similarities. Right now I am trying to find some trace of genome similarities and reading both Arawak and Ainu legends and myths, perhaps is not of big value but I noticed that both nations had lot of stories about Orphans or lost people, hmmmmm coincidence or what???

Will search for more, greetings to whole group:)

[Laura]

Well, the whole thing just seems impossible to sort out.  What we have is evidence (considering the Ainu and the mummies of Urumchi) that the some ancient inhabitants of Japan and much of Asia were caucasian types.  It seems to me that the oriental type may have come from South American after the cataclysm 12500 years ago and spread and intermingled a bit with the Ainu, but that most of that "type" were driven West, toward Europe.  Of course, they may have originally been driven East FROM Europe at another time since we have the evidence of Cro-Magnon man in Europe VERY early (cave paintings, etc).  That people move back and forth and mix around is certainly true, and that sure makes things difficult, but I also think that there is some evidence that type is attracted to type MUCH of the time.

Then we have the language problem.  For example, Spanish and/or Portuguese is the main language of most of Central and South America, but it was imposed and imported.  Same with English in North America and Australia.  In fact, English is the modern day "lingua Franca and nearly all science is done in English.  If you don't publish in English, nobody knows who you are. 

So, can we really rely on language to know who is who and where they came from?  Or is language more an indicator of what kind of culture is dominant at any given time? 

Consider the Akkadian language rendered in Sumerian cuneiform... 

Just so many questions... and I suspect that if we work on other things, like cleaning our "vessel", we might find the answers a lot sooner and easier than if we keep knocking our heads against brick walls. 

[Shijing]

Then we have the language problem.  For example, Spanish and/or Portuguese is the main language of most of Central and South America, but it was imposed and imported.  Same with English in North America and Australia.  In fact, English is the modern day "lingua Franca and nearly all science is done in English.  If you don't publish in English, nobody knows who you are.  

So, can we really rely on language to know who is who and where they came from?  Or is language more an indicator of what kind of culture is dominant at any given time?  

Consider the Akkadian language rendered in Sumerian cuneiform...  

Just so many questions... and I suspect that if we work on other things, like cleaning our "vessel", we might find the answers a lot sooner and easier than if we keep knocking our heads against brick walls.  

Yes, I've been thinking about that -- although language and genes (and culture for that matter) do seem to correlate at large scales, they do not always travel together neatly, especially in a modern colonial environment such as the one that has been present in the last three centuries and has affected the Americas especially.  And even though this current question about Japan and the Bahamas piggybacked on a language question, we don't know necessarily that the C's suggested researching Japan and the Bahamas with language in mind.  It is one possibility, but it could be something else entirely that will eventually shed light on that connection, whatever its supposed to be -- it could just as easily be something specific about the modern cultures (languages (and genes) aside), something off the respective coasts like Bimini (Bahamas) and Yonaguni (Japan), or something entirely different.  Point taken that no matter what, time devoted to this question should only be in addition to more pressing concerns of late such as detox, the breathing program, and so on.

That said, thanks a lot to Jubazo, Biomast and GotoGo for your input on this.  The question will be here waiting for resolution whether we make immediate headway on it or not.  Let's see what opens up when we least expect it...  I may also start a specific thread along these lines in the Linguistics category that is a bit more open and broad, not focusing specifically on the Japan-Bahamas problem, after I do a bit more searching through the session transcripts to set it up properly.

[GotoGo]

Thank you too!

Point taken also.
There is a significant difference to remember that is the difference between normal Intellectual center and Higher Intellectual center and one needs to let Higher Intellectual center to "connect dots" objectively especially when normal Intellectual center 'wants' to continue "mechanically". 


edit: grammar & clarification

[Ljubica]

Thanks Laura,

Cleaning of our "vessel" seems more appealing than knocking our heads against brick walls, especially when living with brain contusion for a long time:)))).

[Shijing]

I looked over this thread once more today (I was in a bit of a rush when I replied last night), and before moving on I had a question for Laura about the following:

It seems to me that the oriental type may have come from South American after the cataclysm 12500 years ago and spread and intermingled a bit with the Ainu, but that most of that "type" were driven West, toward Europe.  Of course, they may have originally been driven East FROM Europe at another time since we have the evidence of Cro-Magnon man in Europe VERY early (cave paintings, etc).  

I am curious to know why you think that Asians originated in South America after the cataclysm you mention above?  I have no reason to think otherwise per se; I am guessing that it may be in part because the Cassiopaeans said that the Native Americans were the same genetic type as the Atlanteans (I quote that in one of my posts above) and that if the Americas were the original Atlantis, then the Atlanteans left in situ on the American continents after the cataclysm would have been the people (i.e. the Native Americans) eventually 'found' by the European colonizers who had lived there since the cataclysm.  But that's just my guess, and I would be interested in hearing what you really think in more detail.

[GotoGo]

I am curious to know why you think that Asians originated in South America after the cataclysm you mention above?

Yea, I had a same question when I read what Laura described above because I was beginning to think South American originated in Asia... 
It would be nice if some new hints are given for my lower Intellectual center for future researches.
But if not now for some reason, I am ok with it also.

[Ljubica]

Hi GotoGO & Shijing,

I just can't keep my eyes out of this subject, you are right, it cross my mind as well, with exclusion of tribes prepared for direct occupation of 4d sts souls (as much I remembered one tribe is Maya), perhaps that influence was crucial for C's appointing to Bahamas Taino/Arawak, pretty isolated and specific.
Second thing C's mentioned their EDUCATIONAL role, due to the fact they did not have written form of preserving their knowledge it must be trough their verbal traditions: shamanic, stories and myths.....

Will stay tuned, greetings to both:))

[Shijing]

Here is something that I ran across today:

http://www.thebahamasweekly.com/publish/bahamas-historical-society/Lucayan_Topynyms9510.shtml

Lucayan Toponyms
By Jim Lawlor, Bahamas Historical Society
Feb 3, 2010 - 4:57:55 PM



Julian Granberry writes: A few of the aboriginal names of the islands of the Commonwealth of the Bahamas and the Crown Colony of the Turks & Caicos Islands - the Lucayan Archipelago - have survived intact to the present: Abaco, Bahama, Bimini, Caicos, Exuma, Guana (in several places), Inagua, Jumen-to, Mayaguana, and Samana. Abaco and Exuma are now applied to islands other than those they first designated, if we are reading the early maps correctly, but the others still designate the islands they originally named. The names of many others are also known from the writings of Spanish chroniclers and maps of the early 16th century. In all we have 40 aboriginal island names.

Until recently there has been no attempt to determine what, if anything, these names meant and what significance such meanings might have in determining the order of settlement, extent of occupation, cultural differences, and relative importance of the individual islands. The names have been listed, of course, with varying degrees of accuracy and there has been speculation as to the import of some of them, but the lack of information on the language they were part of made even guess-work difficult.

Correlating the native names with specific islands in the archipelago is itself not an easy task, for the early maps often dislocate individual islands and frequently give them shapes which are only partly a function of actual geography. In 1953/54, using the beautifully reproduced maps of the Duque de Alba's Mapas Espanoles de America, Siglos XV-XBII (Academia Real de la Historia 1951) and other maps and reproductions available at the P.K. Yonge Library of Florida History at the University of Florida, I correlated the names and locations of the islands in the archipelago from the principal maps of the early 16th century, particularly those of Juan de la Cosa (1500), Alberto Cantino (1502), Freducci d'Ancona (1514/15), the Turin map (c1520), Juan Vespucci (1526), and Alonso de Santa Cruz (1545) (Cranberry 1955:23-31). I have since added correlations from a number of other maps, such as that of Alonso de Chaves (c1526). Recently Josiah Marvel has embarked on a scholarly listing and correlation for 320 cartographic and manuscript sources listing Lucayan island names (Marvel 1988). Our correlations are largely in agreement, though there are a few discrepancies.



The mere reading of the cartographic names is often a difficult task, for variant spellings abound. One is often forced to the assumption that the map-maker himself introduced aberrant spellings for individual names, all of which must have been totally exotic and unfamiliar to him. This seems particularly true of maps whose primary task was to chart areas other than the Caribbean itself. Where individual island names occur in Las Casas' Historia de las Indias (1875), that spelling has been taken as definitive.

The translation of Lucayan names posed additional problems, for it had simply been assumed without verification that Arawakan Taino, the general language of the Greater Antilles, was also the language of the islands - Columbus' Guanahani interpreter was able to converse with the natives of Cuba (Fuson 1987:100, 103, 107, etc.).

In the late 1950's the present writer and a colleague, the late Gary S. Vescelius, former Territorial Archaeologist for the U.S. Virgin Islands, independently began to examine both the surviving Taino lexicon and the native place-names of the Greater Antilles with the object of adding to the number of translatable Taino forms and of determining the method by which the Taino named their settlements. In 1978 we began to consolidate our research efforts. After Mr. Vescelius' untimely death some years later, I obtained his linguistic and toponymic notes, and I am in the final process of completing our joint venture'(Cranberry and Vescelius Ms a, Ms b).


If you are interested in the full text of the article, you may order this issue of our 1990 Journal for B$5.00 plus shipping & handling by contacting the society.

I have no idea if this is relevant to the question of Japan and the Bahamas, but I thought I'd post it just in case.  Who knew there was a Bahamas Historical Society 

[Ljubica]

Hi Shijing,

Seems they knew their geography perfectly, names of the islands are basically parts of accurate geographical map, and so much phoneticall "K" in their dictionary same as in dictionary of their far east relatives.....

[Meager1]

When I was doing some beginning research on old treaties and early Abenaki place names I found the following, which may be of course entirely unrelated to this subject, or not?
Curious though, considering the uncommon word "Kantek" appearing in relation to the Abenaki.

The cession was to the indians of Damisokantik and others who had come to join them.
These others may have been some of the Penobscots..
Adgecantehqok...*Arsikantegouk indian villages-castles.
was actually * Odanak..village

Arosaguntacook and Arossagunticook represent Eastern Abenaki alessíkantekw 'river of the cliff dwellings or rock shelters'; the form Androscoggin (River) probably is a corruption or analogical contamination with the name of Massachusetts governor Edmund Andros.
The modern Penobscot name for the Saint Francis Abenaki is alessikántekweyak, the Arossaguntacook being one ancestral element in the Saint Francis population.

[Shijing]

Seems they knew their geography perfectly, names of the islands are basically parts of accurate geographical map, and so much phoneticall "K" in their dictionary same as in dictionary of their far east relatives.....

Yes, its nice to have some Taino data in hand since it is generally hard to come by.  I'm not sure that they are actually related to the Japanese per se, since we don't know if the Japan-Bahamas connection is a cultural one or not (and I'm not aware of anything else linking Japanese to Taino) -- its one idea to keep in mind though.

When I was doing some beginning research on old treaties and early Abenaki place names I found the following, which may be of course entirely unrelated to this subject, or not?
Curious though, considering the uncommon word "Kantek" appearing in relation to the Abenaki.

The cession was to the indians of Damisokantik and others who had come to join them.
These others may have been some of the Penobscots..
Adgecantehqok...*Arsikantegouk indian villages-castles.
was actually * Odanak..village

Arosaguntacook and Arossagunticook represent Eastern Abenaki alessíkantekw 'river of the cliff dwellings or rock shelters'; the form Androscoggin (River) probably is a corruption or analogical contamination with the name of Massachusetts governor Edmund Andros.
 
The modern Penobscot name for the Saint Francis Abenaki is alessikántekweyak, the Arossaguntacook being one ancestral element in the Saint Francis population.

These are very interesting -- without doing more research, its hard to know if the similarity is coincidental or meaningful (it would be good to be able to break these names into morphemes if possible), and given the fact that we have generally associated Kantekkian descendants with other Eurasian groups, we'd have to figure out why the name was preserved in the Americas, but there could be some explanation.

[Soniko]

Hello.

I was reading the transcript of the C's session date August 9 2009 and I read your comment at http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=13206.msg96389#msg96389 .

Something struck me right there: the "2 main branches of basic alphabets". This is similar in concept to what I've read on Anton Park's website and one of his books that I've began to read but never finished.

To sum it up quickly he says that all languages on earth were "given to humanity" by aliens (reptilians to be precise), those alien themselves having languages based on a single "mother" language that's used for crafting more new languages for some sort of "ciphering" purpose.
He says he found evidences of earth languages having this origin in Sumero-Akkandian language and elsewhere. He provides what he says are evidences of it, but I am not completely at ease with it. The "problem" I find in his work is that he had said work strongly influenced by visions he had in the past and the source of this visions is unknown and consequently suspicious to me. That doesn't mean by itself that it should be ignored right away, osit, but I felt compelled to mention it. This language issue is part of a whole "history of the creation of mankind" which I was interested in reading at the time.

Here's a link if it can help: _http://www.zeitlin.net/EndEnchantment/Secret1.html#Languages  (that is where I first heard of it)

I don't know if there is any truth in his work, and not being a linguist I cannot verify anything about the language portion of it (or anything else to be honest) myself but I thought it could be useful in some way to someone.


FWIW