Author Topic: Gurdjieff On the Nature of Man  (Read 7313 times)

Offline obyvatel

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Re: Gurdjieff On the Nature of Man
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2013, 08:54:13 PM »
Not only that, but Gurdjieff seems to have been feeling his way toward a clearer exposition of psychopathy and ponerology which is what I was sort of hinting at in the first post.  And I don't think he ever got there, not even in B'sT.
The bolded above isn't quite true.  Can some one post the end of book one of BTs - the tale dealing with the hasnamuss.  (That is the psychopath, Laura.)

    When G talks about hasnamuss in BT, he mentions that word in various contexts - like "crystallization of hasnamussian properties", "candidates for hasnamuss", "predispositions to hasnamussian properties transmitted through generations", as well as 313 "eternal hasnamuss individuals" who not only have a kesdjan body but the coated highest being body of the soul residing in a special planet "retribution".

      Modern psychology tends to describe an essential psychopath as someone who is born and not made. In the esoteric field, from C's and Mouravieff, psychopaths are failed organic portal units who do not have an individuated soul. The eternal hasnamuss individuals described in BT seems closer to higher density STS thought forms rather than a psychopath. Evolution of an earthly hasnamuss to the eternal hasnamuss can perhaps be correlated to the ascencion through the STS path.

      So it does not look like we can go with psychopath=hasnamuss based on available data. Gurdjieff obviously knew a lot but his life events and the experiments he conducted show that he was learning and growing as well - so he may not have had the "whole banana" so to speak. Cognitive psychology have come some way since the time of Gurdjieff. It is amazing to see how much Gurdjieff saw based on the available knowledge of the time. Also, the indirect suggestion methods used in Gurdjieff's writings which Henderson highlights in his work has also been studied and developed more since that time. Milton Erickson apparently used  indirect suggestion methods as an unconventional hypnotherapist. We can use these findings appropriately to augment our understanding of the world.

  I get the impression that there is a mindset in some people exposed to G's works to treat them as some sort of holy grail with hidden mystical knowledge. I like the approach of trying to use findings from other sources as appropriate along with G's works to learn more.

   While  :offtopic:, I was interested in Henderson's description of the alleged "hidden" exercise of eyes described in the "Herald" and was looking for some supplementary material on this topic when I came upon a technique called "brainspotting" used for trauma therapy with good results. The therapy evolved from David Grand who was trained in psychotherapy and EMDR techniques. He admits that we do not know how it works but there is significant amount of empirical data to show that it does. 
Here are a couple of short videos where Grand talks about brainspotting
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OaDQqxV4Cg
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIgkvQcZ5SA

    If someone finds this interesting, it may be better to start a new thread on this instead of distracting from the focus of this thread.
What should we have ready at hand in difficult situations?
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Epictetus

What is not made conscious often comes to us as fate.

Carl Jung

Offline RflctnOfU

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Re: Gurdjieff On the Nature of Man
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2013, 09:38:33 PM »
Not only that, but Gurdjieff seems to have been feeling his way toward a clearer exposition of psychopathy and ponerology which is what I was sort of hinting at in the first post.  And I don't think he ever got there, not even in B'sT.
The bolded above isn't quite true.  Can some one post the end of book one of BTs - the tale dealing with the hasnamuss.  (That is the psychopath, Laura.)

    When G talks about hasnamuss in BT, he mentions that word in various contexts - like "crystallization of hasnamussian properties", "candidates for hasnamuss", "predispositions to hasnamussian properties transmitted through generations", as well as 313 "eternal hasnamuss individuals" who not only have a kesdjan body but the coated highest being body of the soul residing in a special planet "retribution".

      Modern psychology tends to describe an essential psychopath as someone who is born and not made. In the esoteric field, from C's and Mouravieff, psychopaths are failed organic portal units who do not have an individuated soul. The eternal hasnamuss individuals described in BT seems closer to higher density STS thought forms rather than a psychopath. Evolution of an earthly hasnamuss to the eternal hasnamuss can perhaps be correlated to the ascencion through the STS path.

      So it does not look like we can go with psychopath=hasnamuss based on available data. Gurdjieff obviously knew a lot but his life events and the experiments he conducted show that he was learning and growing as well - so he may not have had the "whole banana" so to speak. Cognitive psychology have come some way since the time of Gurdjieff. It is amazing to see how much Gurdjieff saw based on the available knowledge of the time. Also, the indirect suggestion methods used in Gurdjieff's writings which Henderson highlights in his work has also been studied and developed more since that time. Milton Erickson apparently used  indirect suggestion methods as an unconventional hypnotherapist. We can use these findings appropriately to augment our understanding of the world.

  I get the impression that there is a mindset in some people exposed to G's works to treat them as some sort of holy grail with hidden mystical knowledge. I like the approach of trying to use findings from other sources as appropriate along with G's works to learn more.

   While  :offtopic:, I was interested in Henderson's description of the alleged "hidden" exercise of eyes described in the "Herald" and was looking for some supplementary material on this topic when I came upon a technique called "brainspotting" used for trauma therapy with good results. The therapy evolved from David Grand who was trained in psychotherapy and EMDR techniques. He admits that we do not know how it works but there is significant amount of empirical data to show that it does. 
Here are a couple of short videos where Grand talks about brainspotting
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OaDQqxV4Cg
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIgkvQcZ5SA

    If someone finds this interesting, it may be better to start a new thread on this instead of distracting from the focus of this thread.
Yes there are the 313 eternal hasnamuss individuals in BT's.  However, those 313 would be 'souled' psychopaths.  What I was referring to was:

Quote from: BT's pp. 405-406
[...]"This 'Naloo-osnian-spectrum-of-impulses' consists, on the basis of that chief cosmic law, the sacred Heptaparaparshinokh, according to the source of its essence in respect of the 'perception-of-engenderings' and the 'resulting-manifestations,' of seven herterogeneous aspects.
   "If these separate aspects of the entire 'spectrum' of Naloo-osnian-impulses are described according to the notions of your favorites and expressed in their language, they might then be defined as follows:

(1)Every kind of depravity, conscious as well as unconscious
(2)The feeling of self-satisfaction from leading others astray
(3)The irresistible inclination to destroy the existence of other breathing creatures
(4)The urge to become free from the necessity of actualizing the being-efforts demanded by Nature
(5)The attempt by every kind of artificiality to conceal from others what in their opinion are one's physical defects
(6)The calm self-contentment in the use of what is not personally deserved
(7)The striving to be not what one is.

These aspects certainly seem to describe - to a 'T' - the general psychopathic psyche. 

G's works, at least from my point of view, are not a 'Holy-Grail', however collectively they are a What-to/How-to manual of the Work.  I can attest from my experience struggling to understand the writings that there IS knowledge 'hiding under the surface', and it takes time for it to surface.

BTW, have you attempted the 'alleged hidden eye exercise' Henderson describes from 'Herald?'  The proof is in the pudding.

Regarding 'souled' psychopaths, I don't think this is incompatible with the suggestion by Laura the possibility that the 'human form'(psychopath) is inhabited or animated by 4D STS baddie. (Did I remember that correctly Laura??)

Kris

Just because one can, doesn't mean one should.

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Re: Gurdjieff On the Nature of Man
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2013, 10:48:17 PM »
I too initially thought along the lines of hasnamuss individuals representing psychopaths, but over time I came to feel the term as encompassing or subsuming psychopaths - at least in terms of their functioning and their effects.

In fact, IMO, a deep understanding of the true nature of envy (in my mind, a term which is not functionally related to 'jealousy' in any way and can be described in BT's pp. 405-406) will reveal a 'set' of individuals most destructive to life in general and to man in specific, whether psychopaths, certain individuals otherwise labeled as sociopaths or whatever. To my understanding, this 'envy' is a poison core of desire to destroy 'the good' just because it is good; because the existence of any 'good' threatens to expose all distortions of 'truth' which have so many people spell-bound.

Also, I sense that, to Gurdjieff, it's not a name that's important (remember his comment about 'orange wranglers' aka 'grammarians') so much as the ability to cognitively arrive at the 'source' from which these various names or labels arise. By 'source' I refer to an implicit cognizance of an individual's relational intelligence and activity which we often refer to as "by their fruits...".

With respect to G's language of form with which he presents BT, it seems clear to me that his story is an example of how one's representational (symbolic) consciousness and one's own relational (contextual) intelligence can work together in unity towards the accomplishment of aim. And I feel like at least one of G's aims is to awaken or deepen the relational intelligence of his readers by providing this form of metaphor-izing and analogizing experience. A discovery of psychopaths by whatever name a reader's contemporary scholars may identify such a person, could only naturally follow from that awakening, OSIT.

So, in summary, I learned about psychopaths before reading Gurdjieff, so my view is retrospective, but even so, I don't sense anything really missing in his teachings.

My 2 cents, FWIW.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 10:53:33 PM by Buddy »
It seems, from all the studies that are done, that an elevated mood - one of happy expectation of the possibility of adventure - is the greatest protection against illness. Perhaps it is also the one that makes one "inedible" to the Matrix? -Laura

Offline obyvatel

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Re: Gurdjieff On the Nature of Man
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2013, 11:34:47 PM »
Yes there are the 313 eternal hasnamuss individuals in BT's.  However, those 313 would be 'souled' psychopaths.  What I was referring to was:

Quote from: BT's pp. 405-406
[...]"This 'Naloo-osnian-spectrum-of-impulses' consists, on the basis of that chief cosmic law, the sacred Heptaparaparshinokh, according to the source of its essence in respect of the 'perception-of-engenderings' and the 'resulting-manifestations,' of seven herterogeneous aspects.
   "If these separate aspects of the entire 'spectrum' of Naloo-osnian-impulses are described according to the notions of your favorites and expressed in their language, they might then be defined as follows:

(1)Every kind of depravity, conscious as well as unconscious
(2)The feeling of self-satisfaction from leading others astray
(3)The irresistible inclination to destroy the existence of other breathing creatures
(4)The urge to become free from the necessity of actualizing the being-efforts demanded by Nature
(5)The attempt by every kind of artificiality to conceal from others what in their opinion are one's physical defects
(6)The calm self-contentment in the use of what is not personally deserved
(7)The striving to be not what one is.

These aspects certainly seem to describe - to a 'T' - the general psychopathic psyche. 

  Yes, they do. IMO the difference between essential or primary psychopaths and those who acquire psychopathic characteristics is worth attention. G's use of hasnamuss was weighted towards the acquired impulses which of course is what otherwise normal human beings need to struggle against. G hinted at the existence of people who had something "broken" inside but to my knowledge did not develop that idea - which is what Laura was talking about. 

Quote from: RflctnOfU
G's works, at least from my point of view, are not a 'Holy-Grail', however collectively they are a What-to/How-to manual of the Work.  I can attest from my experience struggling to understand the writings that there IS knowledge 'hiding under the surface', and it takes time for it to surface.

     As was mentioned earlier, if this knowledge cannot be discussed then it may be not be in an usable form. The example of
Quote from: RflctnOfU
  It would be like the difference between being told what a pineapple tastes like versus taking a bite. 

    would be describing an experience rather than knowledge imo. I can say from a little personal practice  and from what I have read that following certain techniques of breathing and focusing can and do result in experiences which cannot be adequately described in words. However, if there is some "fruit" from such activities, it should make itself manifest in some way. If the "fruit" manifests in a way that helps others then that  is worthwhile for someone aspiring to be STO.

Quote from: RflctnOfU
BTW, have you attempted the 'alleged hidden eye exercise' Henderson describes from 'Herald?'  The proof is in the pudding.

      Here is the text from Herald that I think Henderson refers to.
The background is G describing his experience in a cinema screening the "popular" film "Two Brothers" after his accident.

Quote from: Herald Of Coming Good
  I do not consider it necessary to repeat here the contents of that nonsense, which was the " pick " of the season. but I must say that sitting in that room overcrowded with people who, on account of bad ventilation were obliged to breathe bad air, I, unable to get out, was compelled willynilly to look at the film, and to look intensely, for the focus of my sight was not yet re-established, and I had to fix the various objects sometimes with one eye and sometimes with the other, and the whole time I
"felt revolted by such senseless fashionable bluff ", the popularity of which was due entirely to the herd-instinct, especially prevalent among people today.

At the close of this, what I should call, " general hypnotic-process ", in order to fix firmly some formerly suggested ideas, I, " hobbling " and supported by my companions, returned to the Cafe de la Paix,
which later became my Paris "office ", and regaining gradually my calm, began to form in my mind the outline of the scenario which I have called'' The Three-Brothers ".

In this scenario three brothers act instead of two, and all their manifestations and inter-relations are compared by me to the manifestations and inter-relations of the three separate, independently formed and relatively educated parts of man's general entirety, representing, in fact, firstly, the physical, secondly, the astral, and thirdly, the mental body of man ; and, in the dialogues of the three characters, in the form of a discussion, that is, affirming and denying, I introduced certain ideas which have come down to us from ancient times, when the science of medicine was very highly developed, ideas of what is useful or harmful, satisfactory or unsatisfactory for one or other of the characters of the scenario in the process of transforming of this or that substance.

    Henderson talks about two consciousnesses and hints about two brains (left and right) and the need for balancing the two. He suggests alternate nostril breathing which is also found in yoga.  He also references hypnotism including work of Scottish physician John Braid who utilized a technique of inducing hypnotic state by making people focus their eyes in a particular way described in Neurypnology. According to Henderson, Gurdjieff did not give up the practice of hypnotism but became much more subtle about it and left instructions in his third series to be decoded.

      Kris,  since you have apparently practiced the exercise, why not spell it out for people who have not read the Herald along with how you have felt and how you have benefited? Are you being influenced by Henderson's following advice?

Quote from: Henderson
   And now attend me well: Since Gurdjieff buried this advice so very deeply, one must respect the power of that practice and take seriously the many warnings as found in Beelzebub’s Tales of its potential for abuse. One should therefore take up such practices as one can discover in the inmost version of Gurdjieff’s books ONLY on an individual basis, done only privately – not in groups or with anyone else, and only under the guidance of the master.
   
What should we have ready at hand in difficult situations?
 Simply the knowledge of what is under my control and what is not.

Epictetus

What is not made conscious often comes to us as fate.

Carl Jung

Offline Laura

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Re: Gurdjieff On the Nature of Man
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2013, 11:43:21 PM »

Yes there are the 313 eternal hasnamuss individuals in BT's.  However, those 313 would be 'souled' psychopaths.  What I was referring to was:

Quote from: BT's pp. 405-406
[...]"This 'Naloo-osnian-spectrum-of-impulses' consists, on the basis of that chief cosmic law, the sacred Heptaparaparshinokh, according to the source of its essence in respect of the 'perception-of-engenderings' and the 'resulting-manifestations,' of seven herterogeneous aspects.
   "If these separate aspects of the entire 'spectrum' of Naloo-osnian-impulses are described according to the notions of your favorites and expressed in their language, they might then be defined as follows:

(1)Every kind of depravity, conscious as well as unconscious
(2)The feeling of self-satisfaction from leading others astray
(3)The irresistible inclination to destroy the existence of other breathing creatures
(4)The urge to become free from the necessity of actualizing the being-efforts demanded by Nature
(5)The attempt by every kind of artificiality to conceal from others what in their opinion are one's physical defects
(6)The calm self-contentment in the use of what is not personally deserved
(7)The striving to be not what one is.

These aspects certainly seem to describe - to a 'T' - the general psychopathic psyche. 

No, I don't think they do.  They describe a 3D souled individual firmly set on an STS path.

Regarding 'souled' psychopaths, I don't think this is incompatible with the suggestion by Laura the possibility that the 'human form'(psychopath) is inhabited or animated by 4D STS baddie. (Did I remember that correctly Laura??)

Kris

"Downloaded temporarily" now and again would be more what I had in mind. 

I've come, over time of reading endless cases and studies, to see the psychopath as a completely animal nature of one sort or another with a very large human brain at its disposal.  Because of its animal nature, which is genetically formed, it doesn't have - or have upregulated - the connections to get the frontal lobes fully functioning (if at all).  It can never make progress as a "soul", not even as an evil one.
He who learns must suffer
And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget
Falls drop by drop upon the heart,
And in our own despair, against our will,
Comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.
Agamemnon, Aeschylus

Offline Approaching Infinity

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Re: Gurdjieff On the Nature of Man
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2013, 12:27:53 AM »
There's an interesting section in BT (chapter 43: "Beelzebub's Opinion of War") on the various "crats". Here's how it starts:

Quote
“I must here tell you further that certain of those terrestrial ‘intelligentsics,’ in whom during the period of their responsible existence certain already established forms of their inner functioning have, for various reasons, become definitely changed, are no longer called by the other terrestrial beings ‘intelligentsics’ but are given other names composed of different words, or, more exactly, of the roots of the words of ancient Greek.

“Namely, they name them:
‘Bureaucrats’
‘Plutocrats’
‘Theocrats’
‘Democrats’
‘Zevrocrats’
‘Aristocrats’
and so on....

“The first of the names enumerated, namely, bureaucrats, is given to those intelligentsics in whom the series of their ordinary automatic associations already present in them which engender experiencings are limited, that is to say, however varied the shocks coming from without may be, associations are evoked in these bureaucrats of always the same experiencings which thanks to the frequent repetition acquire their own specific character and manifest quite independently without the participation of any separate spiritualized being-part whatsoever of their common presence.

“And as regards the beings of the second of the enumerated states, that is, those who also after a certain transformation of their psyche are called by other beings plutocrats, then to the beings thus called, those of the intelligentsics there are promoted who previously, during the period of their responsible existence, were able very artistically to get all the honest, that is ‘naive,’ fellow countrymen of theirs they came across, into their toils, thanks to which they become the owners of a great quantity of what is called there ‘money’ and ‘slaves.’

“Here, bear in mind that it is just from these terrestrial types that most Hasnamuss-individuals arise.

...

“And concerning those types there whom all others called democrats, it is first of all necessary to tell you that these types there do not always come from the so to say ’hereditary intelligentsics’; for the greater part they in the first place happen to be simple ordinary terrestrial beings and only afterwards when they chance to become intelligentsics and when with functions present in them degenerated also from the sacred function of ‘Conscience,’ almost the same proceeds in them as among the future plutocrats and theocrats—they are transformed into just these democrats.

“Here it might as well be remarked that when some of these democrats for some reason or other occasionally occupy the places of the power-possessing beings, then a very, very rare cosmic phenomenon sometimes occurs from their actions, namely, as Mullah Nassr Eddin says, ’the very corns turn pedicures.’

“And this rare phenomenon occurs in my opinion because when the democrats there chance to occupy the places of the power-possessing beings, they have in themselves no inherited aptitudes at all for instinctively being able to direct others and in consequence they are quite unable to direct the existence of beings who happen to be in their power.

“Our priceless Teacher Mullah Nassr Eddin has also for these terrestrial types a corresponding sentence; each time he recites it he first raises his arms to Heaven and only then with great reverence pronounces:

“‘Thanks be to Thee, Great and Just CREATOR, that by Thy abundant and just grace it is so ordained that cows do not fly like pretty little birds.’

One interpretation is that there are 'hereditary intelligentsics' (first factor: heredity), who, owing to the particular circumstances of their life (second factor: social forces), become one 'crat' or another. But because of their heredity (rigid reactions to external stimuli), their behaviors acquire a stereotypical pattern or 'character', in which the third factor (independent will) plays no part. Interestingly, it's the plutocrats (the wealthy ruling class, the 1%) where 'hasnamusses' are most often found. G seems to be saying there are two paths by which one becomes a crat: heredity or socialization (a 'simple ordinary terrestrial being' who degenerates). But this doesn't necessarily imply he's talking about something like psychopathy. Just that ruling classes are typically hereditary...

Regardless, I think the way he describes typical modes of association resulting in particular character types is interesting in regards to the various kinds of psychopathy/characteropathy described by Lobaczewski, and how they each have a different 'flavor'.
Man's inhumanity to monsters is notorious and shameful. --John Keel

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Re: Gurdjieff On the Nature of Man
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2013, 01:07:32 AM »
Quote from: RflctnOfU
G's works, at least from my point of view, are not a 'Holy-Grail', however collectively they are a What-to/How-to manual of the Work.  I can attest from my experience struggling to understand the writings that there IS knowledge 'hiding under the surface', and it takes time for it to surface.

     As was mentioned earlier, if this knowledge cannot be discussed then it may be not be in an usable form. The example of
Quote from: RflctnOfU
  It would be like the difference between being told what a pineapple tastes like versus taking a bite. 

    would be describing an experience rather than knowledge imo. I can say from a little personal practice  and from what I have read that following certain techniques of breathing and focusing can and do result in experiences which cannot be adequately described in words. However, if there is some "fruit" from such activities, it should make itself manifest in some way. If the "fruit" manifests in a way that helps others then that  is worthwhile for someone aspiring to be STO.

I agree with this. I understand the pineapple example as a way of pointing up the difference between having a symbolic understanding of a concept (a description of how a pineapple tastes) and having an experience of it that changes you. In fact, some knowledge formed unconsciously in our youth from our experience is the most difficult to describe in language and even Immanuel Kant tried to address this problem with his idea of 'apriori' knowledge.

Today, such distinctions are no longer needed and one reason why comes from child psychology, interestingly enough. Children accept or reject a concept like they accept and reject a toy based on how well this 'something' helps them to act and react to the world in which they live.

As adults, we also have the work of etymologies like (_http://ehl.santafe.edu/intro1.htm) and of people like linguist Anna Wierzbicka and her universal semantic primitives - a study of which should help make meanings universally intelligible - just like we can gain knowledge by tracing words  in our languages back to their Indo-European roots.

So, my overriding idea here is that our biggest problem in terms of educating ourselves about what Gurdjieff is saying is not so much the necessity of experiencing first-hand what we want to know, rather the real item of concern should be about errors of interpretation that have been passed forward to us through ponerization. I think that explains his act of creating new words to express only the meaning he needed to express in order to get some idea across or to awaken the idea in a reader.

As an aside...like others, I also get the feeling that you know something you're not sharing, Kris. Is this the case, and if so, why not just say what needs saying outright? I would if I had any 'secret' knowledge, but other than isolated ideas that G is trying to wake up certain latent cognitive abilities in readers, I just spilled my beans with my post above, I think.  :)

It seems, from all the studies that are done, that an elevated mood - one of happy expectation of the possibility of adventure - is the greatest protection against illness. Perhaps it is also the one that makes one "inedible" to the Matrix? -Laura

Offline Perceval

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Re: Gurdjieff On the Nature of Man
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2013, 02:22:26 AM »

As an aside...like others, I also get the feeling that you know something you're not sharing, Kris. Is this the case, and if so, why not just say what needs saying outright?


I didn't get the feeling or impression that RflctnOfU knows something, but rather that RflctnOfU is missing the point that G's entire life is a testimony to the fact that the Work on the self must be done via direct interactions with other people in 'normal life' and also within a group of people who have the specific aim of Working on themselves via their interactions with each other and with 'normal life'. The idea that there could be something in the text of his books that could itself have a direct effect on the reader and in some way supersede or be more important than the truths that the books attempt to convey to the reader about the inner nature of humans beings that must then be experienced directly by way of the aforementioned interactions, sounds contrary to everything G taught. Basically, RflctnOfU's comments about the effect of reading or hidden messages that must be experienced by each person alone, sound like 'wiseacreing'.

I thought Laura's excerpts and comments were very interesting, and on the ideas about G's "enemies" and "growing a soul":

Quote
The matter from which the soul is formed and from which it later nourishes and perfects itself is, in general, elaborated during the processes that take place between the two essential forces upon which the entire Universe is founded.

The matter in which the soul is coated can be produced exclusively by the action of these two forces, which are called "good" and "evil" by ancient science, or "affirmation" and "negation," while contemporary science calls them "attraction" and "repulsion."

and

Quote
Among the diverse characteristic aspects of this unusual inner attitude on the part of the multitude of my enemies, we shall take for our explanation only the following:

There is not, so to speak, a single one of my sworn enemies who, in one or another of his ordinary states, would not be ready to "sell his soul for me."

and

Quote
"The sharpness of the contradiction which appears between two diametrically opposed actions is directly proportional to the duration of their meeting."

And, in truth, it is so. The more someone has direct relations with me, the more strength he shows later in the diametrically opposed actions that he manifests towards me

It seems to me that what is being referred to here is the "struggle between yes and no" that builds friction within a person and ultimately, if sought out and engaged in for long enough, can 'crystalize' something in a person. Also, maybe what G meant by this reference to his "sworn enemies" and those that have spent time with him is that, while normal life presents people with many struggles between "yes and no" that are perhaps small and not so significant, those that spent time with G and understood some of his teachings  experienced some very intense struggles between "yes and no" on matters that ultimately concerned their very essence or existence in a more itense and clear way (and perhaps spending time directly with him facilitated some energetic exchange that intensified this experience even more).

Those that couldn't 'handle it' chose to 'hate' him afterwards, but their 'hate' afterwards was equal to their attraction or 'love' for him beforehand, and such people perhaps ended up parting company with him on some small detail that they used to justify their choice to follow the small part of themselves and turn against him. Maybe it is in this sense that those people would, "in one or another of his ordinary states" "would be willing to sell his soul" for G.

I can think of many of our most ardent detractors right now who, only a short while ago, were our most ardent supporters and who, if we simply gave them what they wanted, would turn around again and "sell their souls" for us.

Maybe it was through observing such people and the way in which the influences of their external lives and their inner lives directed their actions and this 'struggle' that G understood the nature of humanity and the point of human life; to grow or fall back based on this fundamental struggle, and perhaps he came to some conclusions about the advantage of genetics in determining the likelihood of the struggle going one way or the other.

Just some thoughts FWIW.
"When you begin to separate limiting emotions based on assumptions from emotions that open one to unlimited possibilities, that means you are preparing for the next density."

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Re: Gurdjieff On the Nature of Man
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2013, 02:29:16 AM »
...
Just some thoughts FWIW.

Thanks for sharing them. I'm finding any and all posts relating Gurdjieff to knowledge of psychopathy very interesting. I too have been interested in what G really knew and when he knew it.
It seems, from all the studies that are done, that an elevated mood - one of happy expectation of the possibility of adventure - is the greatest protection against illness. Perhaps it is also the one that makes one "inedible" to the Matrix? -Laura

Offline caballero reyes

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Re: Gurdjieff On the Nature of Man
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2013, 02:59:20 AM »
« Reply #23 of Buddy on: Today at 02:29:16 AM »

« I too have been interested in what G really knew and when he knew it »

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¿Do you think Gurdjieff was a real shaman or a a remarkable student of esoteric schools with a mission in Europe?

Online Buddy

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Re: Gurdjieff On the Nature of Man
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2013, 03:14:29 AM »
« Reply #23 of Buddy on: Today at 02:29:16 AM »

« I too have been interested in what G really knew and when he knew it »

-------------------------------                       ---------------------------------------                         --------------------------------------

¿Do you think Gurdjieff was a real shaman or a a remarkable student of esoteric schools with a mission in Europe?

Yes.  :)

In all seriousness, I don't know. I think he started out life with some kind of cognitive advantage(s) over the bulk of mechanical humanity. My little bit of research into life in Armenia and surrounding country during his childhood and early youth suggests that there was much more novelty and much less robotism and mechanicalness in his environment than there seems to be today - especially in America. So maybe he was simply closer to realizing his potential than many others were and mainly just needed access to various conservatories of knowledge kept by others who were 'awake' in their time.

In short, I usually think of him as one of the ancient mystics (in the positive sense).

But this is my theorizing and probably not much good, so FWIW.  :)

It seems, from all the studies that are done, that an elevated mood - one of happy expectation of the possibility of adventure - is the greatest protection against illness. Perhaps it is also the one that makes one "inedible" to the Matrix? -Laura

Offline whitecoast

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Re: Gurdjieff On the Nature of Man
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2013, 03:22:30 AM »
FWIW, Gurdjieff brings up four types of hasnamuss individuals (which I take to mean beings of an STS orientation):

Quote
"The first kind of hasnamuss individual is a three-brained being who, while acquiring this 'something' in his common presence, still consists only of his planetary body and who, during the process of the sacred rascooarno is subject to the consequences of the properties of this 'something' in him and is thus destroyed forever such as he is.

"For the hasnamuss of the first kind, who acquires this 'something' while consisting only of a planetary body, the decomposition of his planetary body does not proceed according to the general rule, that is to say, all the various sensed impulses in his organism do not stop functioning simultaneously at the approach of the sacred rascooarno, that is, death. "But the process of the sacred rascooarno already begins in him during his planetary existence and proceeds in stages, that is, one by one his 'separate spiritualized localizations' gradually cease to function in his common presence—or, as your favorites would say, in such a being first one of his brains with all its functions dies, later on, the second one dies, and only then does the final death of the being occur.

"In addition to this, after the final death, the disintegration of all the active elements of which the 'planetary body' was formed proceeds much more slowly than usual, and is subject to the inextinguishable action—lessening only in proportion to the volatilization of the active elements—of the 'nalooossnian
impulses' sensed during his life.

Essentially these are people who have already had their mental and/or emotional center die due to a combination of hereditary and environmental factors. My interpretation is that a person with a dead mental center is an authoritarian follower, because they cannot think for themselves and always require their emotions or reactive conditioning to oversee the pseudothinking. The essential psychopath, I think, corresponds quite nicely with one who has a dead emotional center. Naturally this can be either inborn or acquired.

Quote
"The second kind of hasnamuss individual is a three-brained being in whose common presence the 'kesdjan body' has already been coated with the participation of that same 'something', and, as is proper to such a cosmic arising, having acquired the property of 'toorinoorino,' that is, 'nondecomposition' in any sphere of that planet on which he arose, has to exist such as he is, undergoing certain transformations, until this 'something' has been eliminated from him.

"For the second kind of hasnamuss individual, in whose common presence the 'kesdjan body' has already been coated, the 'retributive consequences' are
that, on the one hand, such an indeed unfortunate arising, freed from the planetary body of a three-brained being, and not having the possibility of perfecting himself independently without a planetary coating, does not succeed in eliminating from his presence this maleficent 'something,' which is not necessarily acquired by his own fault, and which always and in everything in the Universe is an obstacle to the correct flowing of the 'common-cosmic trogoautoegocratic process', and on the other hand, owing to the property of 'toorinoorino,' that is, not being subject to decomposition in any sphere of that solar system in which he arose, he must inevitably be coated in a new planetary body, usually with the exterior form of a being of a one- or two-brained system, and in view of the generally brief existence of such beings and of his not having time to adapt himself to any one exterior form, he must constantly begin all over again in the form of another being of that planet with all the uncertainty as to the result of this coating.

These sound more similar to the Spirit Attachments Laura spoke of in the SRT videos. It's curious to note that that they're attracted to one- and two-brained beings. Has anyone every done spirit release therapy on animals? Or is this a subtle reference to Broken Human Beings being more prime targets for possession because of the greater gaps in awareness their dead center causes?

Quote
"A hasnamuss individual of the third kind is a three-brained being in whose common presence the highest being-body, or 'soul,' has been coated, again with the participation of this 'something', and this highest being-body also acquires the property of toorinoorino, but this time corresponding to this highest coating, that is to say, it is not subject to decomposition, either in the spheres of that planet on which he arose, or in any other sphere of the Great Universe.

"And as for a hasnamuss individual of the third kind, namely, a threebrained being in whom the highest being-body has been coated, but with this 'something' participating to the extent that he has not lost forever the possibility of freeing himself from it, his fate is still more terrible For, as a higher cosmic arising predetermined by the foresight of the First Principle of everything existing to serve as a help in the administration of the enlarging world—who from the moment of his completed formation, even before being perfected in Reason, was held responsible for every subjective manifestation, voluntary or involuntary—he has the possibility of eliminating this 'something' from his presence, but solely through the action of the results of intentionally actualized partkdolgduty, that is to say, of conscious labor and intentional suffering. "Such a higher being-body must therefore suffer unremittingly, according to the degree of 'cognizance of his own individuality,' until this 'something' is entirely eradicated from his common presence.

"The fourth kind of hasnamuss individual is like the third, but with this difference, that the hasnamuss of the third kind has the possibility of at some
time becoming so to say 'cleansed' from this 'something,' whereas for the fourth kind this possibility is lost forever "That is why the fourth kind of hasnamuss is called an 'Eternal Hasnamuss Individual.'

"For these four kinds of hasnamuss individuals who have this 'something' in their presence, the 'retributive consequences' I have mentioned do not entail the same suffering, but correspond to the nature of each as well as to the 'objective responsibilities' flowing from the original foresight and hope of our Common Father for these cosmic actualizations.

Probably higher malevolent beings and black magicians who still have the possibility of becoming STO, at least, until they graduate to Type 4.
"And if ye cannot be saints of knowledge, then, I pray you, be at least its warriors."   -Nietzsche

Offline caballero reyes

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Re: Gurdjieff On the Nature of Man
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2013, 04:39:15 AM »

 Thanks, Buddy. I hope you continue to express yours points of view on this topic

Offline RflctnOfU

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Re: Gurdjieff On the Nature of Man
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2013, 08:09:22 AM »
Quote from: RflctnOfU
BTW, have you attempted the 'alleged hidden eye exercise' Henderson describes from 'Herald?'  The proof is in the pudding.

      Here is the text from Herald that I think Henderson refers to.
The background is G describing his experience in a cinema screening the "popular" film "Two Brothers" after his accident.

Quote from: Herald Of Coming Good
  I do not consider it necessary to repeat here the contents of that nonsense, which was the " pick " of the season. but I must say that sitting in that room overcrowded with people who, on account of bad ventilation were obliged to breathe bad air, I, unable to get out, was compelled willynilly to look at the film, and to look intensely, for the focus of my sight was not yet re-established, and I had to fix the various objects sometimes with one eye and sometimes with the other, and the whole time I
"felt revolted by such senseless fashionable bluff ", the popularity of which was due entirely to the herd-instinct, especially prevalent among people today.

At the close of this, what I should call, " general hypnotic-process ", in order to fix firmly some formerly suggested ideas, I, " hobbling " and supported by my companions, returned to the Cafe de la Paix,
which later became my Paris "office ", and regaining gradually my calm, began to form in my mind the outline of the scenario which I have called'' The Three-Brothers ".

In this scenario three brothers act instead of two, and all their manifestations and inter-relations are compared by me to the manifestations and inter-relations of the three separate, independently formed and relatively educated parts of man's general entirety, representing, in fact, firstly, the physical, secondly, the astral, and thirdly, the mental body of man ; and, in the dialogues of the three characters, in the form of a discussion, that is, affirming and denying, I introduced certain ideas which have come down to us from ancient times, when the science of medicine was very highly developed, ideas of what is useful or harmful, satisfactory or unsatisfactory for one or other of the characters of the scenario in the process of transforming of this or that substance.

    Henderson talks about two consciousnesses and hints about two brains (left and right) and the need for balancing the two. He suggests alternate nostril breathing which is also found in yoga.  He also references hypnotism including work of Scottish physician John Braid who utilized a technique of inducing hypnotic state by making people focus their eyes in a particular way described in Neurypnology. According to Henderson, Gurdjieff did not give up the practice of hypnotism but became much more subtle about it and left instructions in his third series to be decoded.

      Kris,  since you have apparently practiced the exercise, why not spell it out for people who have not read the Herald along with how you have felt and how you have benefited? Are you being influenced by Henderson's following advice?

Quote from: Henderson
   And now attend me well: Since Gurdjieff buried this advice so very deeply, one must respect the power of that practice and take seriously the many warnings as found in Beelzebub’s Tales of its potential for abuse. One should therefore take up such practices as one can discover in the inmost version of Gurdjieff’s books ONLY on an individual basis, done only privately – not in groups or with anyone else, and only under the guidance of the master.


Reverse order: I am not being influenced by Henderson's advice, although I do agree with the essence of that particular conclusion he reached - that the real instructions be discovered for oneself.  The reason for that has to do with the importance of the process of realization.  As for the exercise, I have practiced it and the results are quite interesting, and slightly different (in respect of visual field mentioned later) depending on the length of time between switching which eye is closed, however I haven't done a formal experimental investigation into this.  In general, it seems that 'Ego', or small 'I-in-quotes', becomes somewhat anesthetized, and visual perception (after ending the exercise and looking again with two eyes) temporarily becomes 'hyper-sensitive-to-energy-fields' --- that is the only combination of words that I can put to the perception --- as well as clearer (so it seems) thought processes.  I ought to say that I haven't practiced this exercise over extended periods, only intermittently, and the results could become permanent after 'super-efforts'.  I shall make an experiment and share the results after.  Thank you for asking for me to 'spell it out' obyvatel!! :)  Doing the proposed experiment wouldn't have occurred to me otherwise!

Kris
Just because one can, doesn't mean one should.

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Re: Gurdjieff On the Nature of Man
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2013, 08:55:57 AM »
Quote from: RflctnOfU
G's works, at least from my point of view, are not a 'Holy-Grail', however collectively they are a What-to/How-to manual of the Work.  I can attest from my experience struggling to understand the writings that there IS knowledge 'hiding under the surface', and it takes time for it to surface.

     As was mentioned earlier, if this knowledge cannot be discussed then it may be not be in an usable form. The example of
Quote from: RflctnOfU
  It would be like the difference between being told what a pineapple tastes like versus taking a bite. 

    would be describing an experience rather than knowledge imo. I can say from a little personal practice  and from what I have read that following certain techniques of breathing and focusing can and do result in experiences which cannot be adequately described in words. However, if there is some "fruit" from such activities, it should make itself manifest in some way. If the "fruit" manifests in a way that helps others then that  is worthwhile for someone aspiring to be STO.

I agree with this. I understand the pineapple example as a way of pointing up the difference between having a symbolic understanding of a concept (a description of how a pineapple tastes) and having an experience of it that changes you. In fact, some knowledge formed unconsciously in our youth from our experience is the most difficult to describe in language and even Immanuel Kant tried to address this problem with his idea of 'apriori' knowledge.

Something that is "real" bears "fruits". I have messed with indescribable mentations that resulted in outwardly legitimate and logical actions, which were what I actually was intending to do. Sometimes I was able to describe and put them into words later. Sometimes I discovered new words that filled the spaces perfectly.

I know there are many examples of drugged people who have "indescribable" things happen in their head leading to anything but sane activity. I think sometimes language limits expression and reasoning, but I also think that, if one has a collection of "indescribable concepts" in their head, that these can be just a way of defeating reasoning to justify actions, like a thief with a skeleton key. I have done things I should never have done this way, so I feel some importance with sticking with facts and things which are certain for sure, alongside intuition. Still, for me, something indescribable, when finally described, has sometimes made leaps in my understanding and solved puzzles.