Gurdjieff's 5 Being Strivings

Keit said:
WIN 52 said:
It seems smoking is a good opportunity to work with this discipline.

Can you stop without any problems?
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Why smoking, when there are plenty of other bodily challenges like cold showers? :huh: Because it seems counterproductive, especially when stopping does cause problems.
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Smoking and trying to stop is just another way to identify what directs your daily walk. Is it you or your body? The voice in your head can get much more desperate when you stop for a day or two. Learning to be in control can take much work and every opportunity can be used.

You don't have to quit forever, just for a day or two. It gets easier if you persist.
 
Psalehesost said:
Keit said:
WIN 52 said:
It seems smoking is a good opportunity to work with this discipline.

Can you stop without any problems?
Click to expand...

Why smoking, when there are plenty of other bodily challenges like cold showers? :huh: Because it seems counterproductive, especially when stopping does cause problems.
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A different challenge (only to be considered by those already on the ketogenic diet!), for those who have trouble with dietary cravings, etc., could be to do what for some is nearly effortless: try living on a zero carb diet, where you eat nothing at all except, say, ground meat and ground fat and salt (and in addition there can be salted bone broth), and drink nothing but water and tea. No spices, no snacks, and no variation in ingredients whatsoever except what was already listed. I've eaten like this, on and off, for stretches of months. For many others it might be more of a challenge, while for me there are other things that are much more difficult.

A challenge for me - probably as hard as, or harder than, the above would be for most - would be regular exercise. The resistance to it is persistent (and many times greater than the resistance to cold showers) and there is, much of the time, simply a complete lack of willingness; and it can be as if part of the self even prevents efforts by making me physically listless when focusing on the very idea of making real exertions.

EDIT: Regarding cold showers, I have (personally) found that the resistance is almost purely emotional. In moving awareness to the body and its sensations and detaching from the emotional response to the idea of bringing the showerhead over me, it becomes much easier. This for me is a new "trick", and also to be tried with exercise, where again the resistance seems mainly emotional in nature.
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There may also be physical challenges to deal with, as the wave approaches. Should we not work on both?
 
For human beings, home and material possessions form an important aspect of life. This also is a need of the body. However in this regard, the general tendency is to over-indulge. Especially in relatively affluent western societies, excess consumption and accumulation is rampant. There is research data to show that beyond a certain point, material possessions lead to decreased satisfaction.We usually accumulate a ton of stuff that is not needed and suffer in various ways from being needlessly identified with them. So in this regard, for most cases, the need is to shed excess baggage and strip things down to what is needed and reduce emotional identification with one's possessions. At the same time, striving to maintain a well organized, clean living space and surroundings gets its legitimate place in one's life. There is also a lot of scope for being intelligently creative in this regard, making the most out of less stuff.
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Thank you obyvatel for the above reminder. This is something I`m being face with right now. Each day I`ve been going through items and asking myself if I really need this. I`m trying hard to get things down to basics. :/ It`s not an easy road for me, but I`m trying and taking cold baths are helping to put things in perspective for me. It`s almost like getting rid of the luxury of having hot water. That too is a big shock to my mind and body,for one who enjoys soaking in a hot bath. Shocking my body with cold water has really changed my perspective of things and things to come.
 
Based on personal experience, it becomes possible to distinguish when the body is requesting something it needs and when the request is of a non essential need.

Direction, when you decide what is best rather than reacting to the whimsical nature of craving.

Say no to the craving to light up and light up when your body least expects a smoke.
 
Nancy2feathers said:
For human beings, home and material possessions form an important aspect of life. This also is a need of the body. However in this regard, the general tendency is to over-indulge. Especially in relatively affluent western societies, excess consumption and accumulation is rampant. There is research data to show that beyond a certain point, material possessions lead to decreased satisfaction.We usually accumulate a ton of stuff that is not needed and suffer in various ways from being needlessly identified with them. So in this regard, for most cases, the need is to shed excess baggage and strip things down to what is needed and reduce emotional identification with one's possessions. At the same time, striving to maintain a well organized, clean living space and surroundings gets its legitimate place in one's life. There is also a lot of scope for being intelligently creative in this regard, making the most out of less stuff.
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Thank you obyvatel for the above reminder. This is something I`m being face with right now. Each day I`ve been going through items and asking myself if I really need this. I`m trying hard to get things down to basics. :/ It`s not an easy road for me, but I`m trying and taking cold baths are helping to put things in perspective for me. It`s almost like getting rid of the luxury of having hot water. That too is a big shock to my mind and body,for one who enjoys soaking in a hot bath. Shocking my body with cold water has really changed my perspective of things and things to come.
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I guess it's not a matter of the need of the item itself. One can have thousands of items if he, inside himself is free of identification with each items.
 
[quote author=edgitarra]
I guess it's not a matter of the need of the item itself. One can have thousands of items if he, inside himself is free of identification with each items.
[/quote]

It would be true for one who has attained a relatively high degree of mastery over the body and is not ruled by the body's demands. In general, it is good sense to have and use what is needed while taking good care of those items.

We can work out ways to prevent accumulating stuff in the present. To give an example, I heard someone remark that he takes a bike and a backpack to the the grocery store instead of his car so that he would limit his purchases. While this example may not be all that relevant for those who follow the paleo/keto diet, for that person, such a decision helps to keep consumption down and get more exercise at the same time.

Taking only a limited amount of cash when going shopping also serves a similar purpose. Use of credit cards is perhaps one of the factors responsible for accumulation of excess stuff. It is not only about the "buy now pay later" aspect of credit card usage. One can pay off the credit card debt every month but still end up getting more than he needs by using the card rather than cash. It has something to do with temptation and impulsive actions when in a store. After all, all stores want people to buy more stuff and the environment inside stores is designed to trigger, trick or tickle the unconscious mind to get more stuff than is needed. So carrying a limited amount of cash to the store is like Odysseus asking his men to bind him to the mast so that he would not be able to respond to the song of the sirens.

Regarding stuff accumulated over the years, one useful thumb rule is that - if you have not used an item in the last one year, it becomes a strong candidate for being dumped.
 
WIN 52 said:
Psalehesost said:
[...] Regarding cold showers, I have (personally) found that the resistance is almost purely emotional. In moving awareness to the body and its sensations and detaching from the emotional response to the idea of bringing the showerhead over me, it becomes much easier. This for me is a new "trick", and also to be tried with exercise, where again the resistance seems mainly emotional in nature.
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There may also be physical challenges to deal with, as the wave approaches. Should we not work on both?
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Physical and emotional challenges may be hard to separate, when there is emotional resistance to working with the body in some way. Exercise, cold showers, etc., can involve both. I think purely physical challenges would have to involve struggling against pain or pleasure, as resistance to doing things otherwise involves emotion.
 
"All the beings of that planet then began to work in order to have in their consciousness this divine function of genuine Conscience, and for this purpose, as everywhere in the Universe, they transubstantiated in themselves what are called the 'being-obligolnian strivings' of which there are five, namely.

"The first striving to have in one's ordinary being-existence everything satisfying and really necessary for the planetary body.

"The second striving to have a constant and unflagging instinctive need to perfect oneself in the sense of Being.

"The third the conscious striving to know ever more and more about the laws of world-creation and world-maintenance.

"The fourth the striving, from the beginning of one's existence, to pay as quickly as possible for one's arising and individuality, in order afterward to be free to lighten as much as possible the sorrow of our Common Father.

"And the fifth the striving always to assist the most rapid perfecting of other beings, both those similar to oneself and those of other forms, up to the degree of the sacred 'Mart-fotai,' that is, up to the degree of self-individuality.
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I think the first striving could be just the striving to satiate oneself. and the striving to sleep. So animals would have this striving, but I don't think any of the other 1's. Also I think you could include procreation and social behaviors, for humans, friendship, in this first striving.

4 is contradictory because individuality and arising I consider both achievements, and so it doesn't make sense you pay for this from the beginning of your existence. It would make more sense "from the beginning of ones new existence" i.e having arisen, and attained "individuality" in the work sense, not at the mercy of little i's, then you have the 4th striving, the striving to pay ones debt swiftly. this payment perhaps related to the gurdjieff idea of life not being free and perhaps, those attaining individuality have more "life" have more payment.. not sure. you pay "to be free to lighten as much as possible the sorrow of our Common Father". This is the fifth striving I think. You can see the strivings in a sequence requiring the previous. Perhaps matching the transubstantiation of the strivings to the evolution of Man. the first striving being that of the obvytal, and the second and third what the 4th way student is concerned with as well.

you can also see I suppose the transubstantiation of each striving not as a singular event but an ongoing thing, that happens by degrees. for example by some transubstantiation of the first 3 striving, you then have some amount of individuality, you have then already some debt and striving number 4, and then some striving of 5. this goes well with the idea of the obligation of pupils to help those beneath them onto a ladder, not being 4th way teacher, but acting as teacher.

I think the cold water shower fits closest either first or second striving. the first striving, in that one endures the cold to attain health, which is the concept of doing something to get something else, an obvytal skill. like hunting to eat, or with people, working for pay. And then there is the aspect that it can be a self-struggle or extra-effort, which relate to 2nd striving.
 
Hello everyone. I'm sorry if my post is maybe is inappropriate for this thread, but I have to ask some questions that concern me lately.

I read this thread and I have so much blockades and don't understand it. First of all, I'm dealing with many programs, fears etc. within myself. But, my current understanding is that the "right" Work for me is, let's say, to find a way to work with my issues in a safe-zone. It means that I do work on unpleasant, uncomfortable programs, but to try to do it on comfortable way. Like, I just have to put it in motion and when tho process start I just work with that. To put myself in that process is of course, challenging, and only way that works for me for now is that I enjoy in that process. It means that I feel somehow nourished by myself, joy, curiosity, even if the process is unpleasant.

When it comes to topic of discipline in my work, I just can't understand that principle. My questions are: why do I have to force myself when it seems so much effective when I just do things that I like? Maybe discipline to me means to persuade myself to work, because it is interesting, it's fun to learn etc.?
I'm very confused about this. What role discipline has in someone's Work, and where somebody who doesn't understand that much should start? Does discipline have to be something "hard"? And the most important question, how to balance between comfortable and uncomfortable, letting things go and control them - I think this question might somehow be a synthesis of my topic. So, I guess it would be balancing one's mind and the feelings theme.

Sorry for the noise and please delete my topic if it it's inappropriate.
 
Flow said:
When it comes to topic of discipline in my work, I just can't understand that principle. My questions are: why do I have to force myself when it seems so much effective when I just do things that I like? Maybe discipline to me means to persuade myself to work, because it is interesting, it's fun to learn etc.?
I'm very confused about this. What role discipline has in someone's Work, and where somebody who doesn't understand that much should start? Does discipline have to be something "hard"? And the most important question, how to balance between comfortable and uncomfortable, letting things go and control them - I think this question might somehow be a synthesis of my topic. So, I guess it would be balancing one's mind and thenfeeling theme.
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I don't think your post is off-topic.

Discipline is enormously important to embark on the Work. As an interesting aside, the French word for "follower" is "disciple" - which shows a clear connotation to discipline.

For me discipline is needed to break through the mechanicalness of existence, because mechanical traits always like to have it "their way" - so an amount of discipline and conscious suffering is needed to overcome the mechanicalness.

As to the process, G said, that we should aim for small, manageable steps, that are not out of reach of our capabilities. Take the cold shower analogy, for instance. This is a relatively small step, takes only a few minutes every day. But it is quite telling, what goes on inside, the huffing and puffing of the machine to try to water down your resolve.

And this is where balance comes in, as far as I can see. You cannot clean all your machine in one go, a multitude of small steps are needed. After the shower it might be diet, or other habits we indulge in. One step builds up on the next.

Once we are accustomed to the fight with the "little Is" we can embark on the bigger things, like acquiring knowledge on a continual basis and put others on the step behind us, which from my own experience is so much harder.

Anyway, my topence!
 
Hi Flow,
This thread assumes some background knowledge in Gurdjieff's 4th Way Work. PD Ouspensky's. "In Search of the Miraculous" (ISOTM in short) is the recommended introduction to Gurdjieff's Work. If you haven't read it then I would suggest reading it if this topic interests you.


Flow said:
I read this thread and I have so much blockades and don't understand it. First of all, I'm dealing with many programs, fears etc. within myself. But, my current understanding is that the "right" Work for me is, let's say, to find a way to work with my issues in a safe-zone. It means that I do work on unpleasant, uncomfortable programs, but to try to do it on comfortable way. Like, I just have to put it in motion and when tho process start I just work with that. To put myself in that process is of course, challenging, and only way that works for me for now is that I enjoy in that process. It means that I feel somehow nourished by myself, joy, curiosity, even if the process is unpleasant.
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If the process is unpleasant to you and you are able to actually go through with it, then you are practicing discipline. In my experience, there is a satisfaction that comes after I go through such a process, even though it was unpleasant to start with.

[quote author=Flow]
When it comes to topic of discipline in my work, I just can't understand that principle. My questions are: why do I have to force myself when it seems so much effective when I just do things that I like? Maybe discipline to me means to persuade myself to work, because it is interesting, it's fun to learn etc.?
I'm very confused about this. What role discipline has in someone's Work, and where somebody who doesn't understand that much should start?
[/quote]

Getting familiar with the research on diet as well as the EE meditation program (links are there to the material in the thread where you introduced yourself) would be good starting points. These are some practical applications of what is being discussed in this thread

[quote author=Flow]
Does discipline have to be something "hard"? And the most important question, how to balance between comfortable and uncomfortable, letting things go and control them - I think this question might somehow be a synthesis of my topic. So, I guess it would be balancing one's mind and the feelings theme.
[/quote]

I think this is more a matter of practical experience. Suppose I have made a decision to meditate everyday before I sleep. Now I have had a long tiring day and though I found time to do everything else, I feel like I deserve to sleep for that extra half an hour than spend it trying to meditate. Even though it feels unpleasant , my body can take half an hour of sitting. If I go through with the sitting meditation in this situation, I go to sleep in a more satisfied and happy state.

Then suppose I twisted my ankle during the day. It is not serious but somewhat painful if I take up my customary sitting posture during meditation. Now what do I do? I can follow through with the regular routine , not only going through with meditation at the end of the long day but do it in my customary posture which strains my ankle more. When I go to sleep, my ankle hurts - so I am not happy - but I feel proud that I was able to do it despite the pain.

Instead of this, I can go through with the meditation but choose a different posture than my usual one - which does not put any strain on my ankle. When I am done, I am happy but not proud. So I followed discipline but in a flexible rather than a rigid way in keeping with the situation at hand.

[quote author=Flow]
Sorry for the noise and please delete my topic if it it's inappropriate.
[/quote]

You asked a sincere question, Flow. It is appropriate and valuable, for you and for others. Personally, I think this forum could use more sincere questions. People have them, but they refrain from asking due to some imaginary fears that may be covered up by different justifications and narratives.
 
On the topic of discipline, there is this recent article on SOTT that may be relevant: Willpower: Our greatest strength?

Experts suggest that we need to think of self-control as a "muscle"; something we can train in order to increase our willpower. Not unlike an athlete, in order to strengthen willpower skills we can make a willpower workout part of a daily regimen for goals like losing weight, saving money, or getting out of debt. And not unlike an athlete in training, exerting the self-control muscle, while difficult in the early stages of the effort, will only grow easier with time and increased resolve.
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nicklebleu said:
I don't think your post is off-topic.

Discipline is enormously important to embark on the Work. As an interesting aside, the French word for "follower" is "disciple" - which shows a clear connotation to discipline.

For me discipline is needed to break through the mechanicalness of existence, because mechanical traits always like to have it "their way" - so an amount of discipline and conscious suffering is needed to overcome the mechanicalness.

As to the process, G said, that we should aim for small, manageable steps, that are not out of reach of our capabilities. Take the cold shower analogy, for instance. This is a relatively small step, takes only a few minutes every day. But it is quite telling, what goes on inside, the huffing and puffing of the machine to try to water down your resolve.

And this is where balance comes in, as far as I can see. You cannot clean all your machine in one go, a multitude of small steps are needed. After the shower it might be diet, or other habits we indulge in. One step builds up on the next.

Once we are accustomed to the fight with the "little Is" we can embark on the bigger things, like acquiring knowledge on a continual basis and put others on the step behind us, which from my own experience is so much harder.

Anyway, my topence!
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Thanks for the response. Those are simple and great tips, like taking a small steps, patience and understanding the reason why there must be suffering. I did have a few aha-moments last night. I was reading C's and came to the session where there was a discussion about "love and light". Not be able to see negativity. Somehow I think one piece of the puzzle of my lack of discipline might have something to do with it. The fact that "there can't be positivity without negativity" and inversely. If I compare to the theme of discipline, I think that I somehow live in belief that it all has to be nice and flowy and that there is no need for effort. But maybe those two, spontaneity and effort are connected. There is a reason why we have emotions, but what I probably often forget is, there is also a reason why we have brain. While I do intellectualize a lot and I found this is one of greatest programs, there is another one. So, similarly like the person who believes that all life problems can be solved with the intellect, my belief is that, if you just solve your emotional problems you will solve all your problems.
 
If the process is unpleasant to you and you are able to actually go through with it, then you are practicing discipline. In my experience, there is a satisfaction that comes after I go through such a process, even though it was unpleasant to start with.
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Hey Obyvatel, can I ask you if that satisfaction that comes later is something you can define, or recognize? I find that there are more types of satisfaction after being in an unpleasant process. There is satisfaction that just simply is pure, and there is satisfaction that stems from the fact that we think we can "Do". Sometimes there is no satisfaction. I just do something unpleasant and not even care about it.

Even though it feels unpleasant , my body can take half an hour of sitting. If I go through with the sitting meditation in this situation, I go to sleep in a more satisfied and happy state.
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When I go to sleep, my ankle hurts - so I am not happy - but I feel proud that I was able to do it despite the pain.
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Can pride be helpful in the process? I am asking because G. put it somehow in a different way, saying that we should not expect any kind of results, and just do what has to be done.


[quote author=Flow]
When it comes to topic of discipline in my work, I just can't understand that principle. My questions are: why do I have to force myself when it seems so much effective when I just do things that I like? Maybe discipline to me means to persuade myself to work, because it is interesting, it's fun to learn etc.?
I'm very confused about this. What role discipline has in someone's Work, and where somebody who doesn't understand that much should start?
[/quote]

Firstly you have to know why do you want to Work. Why do you think you must work, even be here on the forum. Doing things that you like must have brought you into the Work? What really makes you be curious about such a system that most of people are blind to its existence?

[quote author=Flow]
Does discipline have to be something "hard"? And the most important question, how to balance between comfortable and uncomfortable, letting things go and control them - I think this question might somehow be a synthesis of my topic. So, I guess it would be balancing one's mind and the feelings theme.
[/quote]

Unless you are not able to recognize your position in this world, you might not fully convinced that there should be a discipline. That's the hardest step. I am not even 10% aware of what is my position here, and what is really happening in the world.
Think like this: if someone would tell you that you are a slave and that there is a chance to escape, firstly you have to see it for yourself. Then you will be shocked to experience it, and then you will want to take the chance to escape.
 
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