Greek Language

I am starting this thread to continue our discussion with latulipenoire that started about here:

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,31732.msg525139.html#msg525139

latulipenoire said:

Alana, you've made me curious about which dictionaries and syntax you ordered! Also, can you suggest some material on modern Greek? :)

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Ok, so the books I ordered are:

ΑΡΧΑΙΑ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ -ΜΕΘΟΔΟΣ ΚΑΤΑΝΟΗΣΕΩΣ
http://www.politeianet.gr/books/9789608358300-pleuris-a-konstantinos-ilektron-archaia-ellinika-150625

I chose this one because it is not a dictionary but the author is using modern greek and the etymology of words we use today to teach ancient gr.

ΒΑΣΙΚΟ ΛΕΞΙΚΟ ΑΡΧΑΙΑΣ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗΣ
http://www.politeianet.gr/books/9789600105131-markantonatos-gerasimos-gutenberg-basiko-lexiko-archaias-ellinikis-bibliodetimeni-ekdosi-156955
A modern gr - ancient gr dictionary

ΣΥΝΤΑΚΤΙΚΟ ΑΡΧΑΙΑΣ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗΣ ΓΛΩΣΣΑΣ
http://www.politeianet.gr/books/9789600620115-mpilla-poluxeni-oedb-organismou-up-paideias-itue-diofantos-suntaktiko-archaias-ellinikis-glossas-abg-gumnasiou-178837
Syntax of ancient gr (is quite different than modern gr)

ΛΕΞΙΚΟ ΡΗΜΑΤΩΝ ΤΗΣ ΑΡΧΑΙΑΣ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗΣ
http://www.politeianet.gr/books/9789604605989-pelekis-p-makarios-sabbalas-lexiko-rimaton-tis-archaias-ellinikis-bibliodetimeni-ekdosi-199870
Dictionary of ancient gr verbs (with all their multiple and weird conjugations)

ΛΕΞΙΚΟ ΤΗΣ ΑΡΧΑΙΑΣ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗΣ
http://www.politeianet.gr/books/9789603780793-fragkoulis-athanasios-patakis-lexiko-tis-archaias-ellinikis-156946
Another ancient gr - modern gr etymological dictionary.

I don't know what to tell you about modern greek though. Perhaps any "how to learn Greek" book in english or Portuguese? I had a look on Amazon and this looks ok, it's free on kindle http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Nutshell-James-Strong-ebook/dp/B008493TW0/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1412194166&sr=8-7&keywords=learn+greek

just to try it out and see how it goes.

This one promises to teach you the language in 7 days! http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Ultimate-Course-Learning-Language/dp/1500816671/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1412194166&sr=8-4&keywords=learn+greek

You already know the root language. If you tell me what it is you don't understand from any of the books or anywhere else, I will be able to help.

Anyway, I'll wait until my books are here and then I'll pick your brains if you don't mind

And of course everyone is invited to join if you are interested in this subject

I created a new thread here so that we don't take this one any more

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,36177.0.html#new

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Oops...When I asked about modern Greek in the other topic I knew (I should say I rather felt) I was asking for trouble! =)

OK, thank you again for your patience, I'll try to get first that free one for Kindle and then, if all goes well, I'll be able to evaluate my progress and check the other ones!

You already know the root language. If you tell me what it is you don't understand from any of the books or anywhere else, I will be able to help.

Anyway, I'll wait until my books are here and then I'll pick your brains if you don't mind

And of course everyone is invited to join if you are interested in this subject

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I guess I don't know the meaning of "picking someone's brain" clearly enough to form a mental picture, but if that means we will learn together, that's okay!

latulipenoire said:

I guess I don't know the meaning of "picking someone's brain" clearly enough to form a mental picture, but if that means we will learn together, that's okay!

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From: http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/pick+brain

pick someone's brain(s)
Fig. to talk with someone to find out information about something.
I spent the afternoon with Donna, picking her brain for ideas to use in our celebration.
Do you mind if I pick your brains? I need some fresh ideas.

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latulipenoire

I guess I don't know the meaning of "picking someone's brain" clearly enough to form a mental picture, but if that means we will learn together, that's okay!

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Idioms are great aren't they? When we pause to look at them literally they often conjure up hysterically funny or wildly incongruous images. Like "picking someone's brain." For a literal translation, I see someone with the top of their head flipped open and someone else behind them probing around inside with chopsticks! My personal favorite is common in casual conversational language in the Mid-west area of the US and refers to people hanging out together(another common idiom useful to shorten the message) chatting about unimportant, common topics: "Yeah, I stopped by Bill and Terry's the other day and we were all hanging around shooting the shit for a while." Sorry, but the mental image of the literal interpretation of that "cracks me up"!

Like comedy, the words of an idiom can be translated literally but they usually do not convey the embedded message which will often take more words to explain than if one just used literal language to begin with. But, they add richness to conversation and often provide insight in to another culture's point of view on a topic. So it is important when we are posting, not to avoid idioms and lose the fun and extra context, but to notice the idiomatic expressions we are including and to realize they may not be translated they way we intend them to be without adding a little extra explanation. My understanding is that people are fully fluent in another language when they understand its humor and idioms. So, enjoy posting with idioms and enrich us all--fire away. Ok, I'll stop.
shellycheval

shellycheval said:

My understanding is that people are fully fluent in another language when they understand its humor and idioms.

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That's true. But then you discover that throughout languages we share 1) exactly same images for idioms or 2) a different image for the same meaning. And it is so fascinating! Idioms can give us information about the main occupations/interests of a people, and how they view the world.

Example for 1) My French neighbor told me in his language one day that he sleeps with the chicken (meaning, he goes to bed early at night). I was totally amused when I understood what he said, and understood I did because we use the same phrase in Greek language to express the same meaning! I was very happy, I rarely understand what my neighbors tell me Another similar example, with the english: a birdie told me. The same image is used to produce the same meaning in Greek (basically used by someone who doesn't want to reveal the source of his information to the person they are speaking to)

An example for 2) In English they talk about the straw that broke the camel's back, but for the same meaning in Greek we talk about the drop that overflowed the glass. Or in English: You give someone an inch and they take a mile. In Greek the same is expressed in: give the villager (person uneducated/without manners) some airs and he will lay in your bed with his boots.

And then within a language there might be area specific idioms as well.

latulipenoire, I had an idea. I don't know if it is possible, but I was wondering if you could translate the Prayer of the Soul in ancient Greek.

You can find it here in English, modern Greek and Portuguese - among a lot of other languages:

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,12888.msg93128.html#msg93128

Another similar example, with the english: a birdie told me. The same image is used to produce the same meaning in Greek (basically used by someone who doesn't want to reveal the source of his information to the person they are speaking to)

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The same happens in Portuguese! I was thinking about idioms and I wondered if, for example, we only use idioms in a particular frame of mind and/or circumstance. For example, we would say "um passarinho me contou" (a little bird told me) humorously, often inciting the person whom we're speaking to tell us more about what happened. Also, it's informal/colloquial, and we would use it when speaking about a trivial topic that usually doesn't concern us personally. If, on the other hand, we're angry and/or dead serious about something, we might say "fiquei sabendo" (lit, "I happened to know"), enphasizing the urgency of the matter discussed. Does the same happen in Greek and in English?

An example for 2) In English they talk about the straw that broke the camel's back, but for the same meaning in Greek we talk about the drop that overflowed the glass. Or in English: You give someone an inch and they take a mile. In Greek the same is expressed in: give the villager (person uneducated/without manners) some airs and he will lay in your bed with his boots.

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We say, in Portuguese, "foi a gota d'água!" (meaning literally 'that was the drop of water') when we stress that 'it's enough!'/ 'we've had enough'. I guess that's short of "that was the drop of water that overflowed the glass"! :D

latulipenoire, I had an idea. I don't know if it is possible, but I was wondering if you could translate the Prayer of the Soul in ancient Greek.

You can find it here in English, modern Greek and Portuguese - among a lot of other languages:

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,12888.msg93128.html#msg93128

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Thank you for the link, Alana, I didn't know the Prayer of the Soul (shame on me!) and now I've told myself that Éiriú Eolas is a priority! (I assumed, from what I've read, that Laura recites the prayer there!) Ça va! I'll try to understand the prayer and translate it as I go along, thank you again for the suggestion!

Alana said:

with the english: a birdie told me. The same image is used to produce the same meaning in Greek (basically used by someone who doesn't want to reveal the source of his information to the person they are speaking to)

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In spanish we use the same exact phrase with the same meaning, more like "a little bird told me...."

shellycheval said:

My understanding is that people are fully fluent in another language when they understand its humor and idioms.

Click to expand...

How very true.

My high school teacher Ancient Languages and History (Latin and Greek, for the most part) was want of saying: "You are really well versed in any language only when you're capable of improvising off the cuff whining and scolding in it".

That was like his pet theory, or some sort of a deranged hobby of his.

And he never failed to subsequently demonstrate his skills at it, time and again -- both in Latin of different idioms (classical, church, medieval, Vatican, Osservatore Romano, e tutti quanti), and in Greek (classical, Orthodox, modern), as well as in several other obscure dialects from those times, of which I've forgotten even the names.

Those lessons were always entertaining and instructive at the same time, and I'll never forget them -- but his given examples didn't leave a lasting impression, curiously enough.

Probably because I never really needed to use those, I suppose. ;D

Hello,

I was trying to read the greek version of the Prayer of the Soul (https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,12888.msg93128.html#msg93128) when I realized something didn't match (please correct me if I'm mistaken). It seems the original version lacks the title, and the first verse is taken for it. Below are the original and the one I changed:

Greek


"Ω Θείο Κοσμικό Mυαλό"

Ιερή Eπίγνωση όλης της Δημιουργίας
Που φέρεσαι στην Καρδιά
Κυβερνάς το Νου
Λυτρώνεις τη Ψυχή
Ζήσε εντός μου σήμερα
Γίνε για εμένα ο Άρτος ο Επιούσιος
Καθώς προσφέρω Άρτο σε Άλλους
Βοήθησέ με να αναπτύξω Γνώση
Για όλη την Πλάση
Καθάρισε τα μάτια μου
'Ωστε να δω
Καθάρισε τα αυτιά μου
Ώστε να ακούσω
Εξάγνισε την Καρδιά μου
Ώστε να Γνωρίσω και να Αγαπήσω
Την Ιερότητα της Αληθινής 'Υπαρξης
Θείο Κοσμικό Mυαλό




Greek

"η προσευχή της ψυχής"

Ω Θείο Κοσμικό Mυαλό
Ιερή Eπίγνωση όλης της Δημιουργίας
Που φέρεσαι στην Καρδιά
Κυβερνάς το Νου
Λυτρώνεις τη Ψυχή
Ζήσε εντός μου σήμερα
Γίνε για εμένα ο Άρτος ο Επιούσιος
Καθώς προσφέρω Άρτο σε Άλλους
Βοήθησέ με να αναπτύξω Γνώση
Για όλη την Πλάση
Καθάρισε τα μάτια μου
'Ωστε να δω
Καθάρισε τα αυτιά μου
Ώστε να ακούσω
Εξάγνισε την Καρδιά μου
Ώστε να Γνωρίσω και να Αγαπήσω
Την Ιερότητα της Αληθινής 'Υπαρξης
Θείο Κοσμικό Mυαλό

latulipenoire said:

Hello,

I was trying to read the greek version of the Prayer of the Soul (https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,12888.msg93128.html#msg93128) when I realized something didn't match (please correct me if I'm mistaken). It seems the original version lacks the title, and the first verse is taken for it. Below are the original and the one I changed:

Click to expand...

Good catch! I corrected it.

latulipenoire, I had an idea. I don't know if it is possible, but I was wondering if you could translate the Prayer of the Soul in ancient Greek.

You can find it here in English, modern Greek and Portuguese - among a lot of other languages:

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,12888.msg93128.html#msg93128

Click to expand...

Okay, I guess I managed to translate it roughly! All the forms are from the Attic dialect (used by Plato and Aristophanes), Alana, hope you already understand it!

Ὴ προσευχή τῆς ψυχῆς

Ὦ θεῖος κοσμικός νοῦς
Ἱερά συνείδησις ἐν ὁλῷ κόσμῳ
Ἐνεγκοῦσα ἐν καρδίᾳ (see note below)
Κῦβερνήτης τοῦ νοῦ
Σωτήρ τῆς ψυχῆς
Ζῆθι ἔν μοι τήμερον
Ἴσθι ἐμόν ἄρτον τῆς ἡμέρης
Ὧς δίδωμι ἄλλοις ἄρτον
Βοήθει μοι ἐπιρρωννύναι ἐν γνῶσει
Τοῦ ὁλοῦ κόσμου
Ἀποκαθαῖρε ἐμά ὄμματα
Ἵνα ὅρω
Ἀποκαθαῖρε ἐμάς ἀκοάς
Ἵνα ἀκουω
Ἀποκαθαρίζε ἐμόν ἦτορ
Ἵνα τ`εἰδῶ καὶ φιλῶ
Τόν ἀγίασμα τῆς ἐτέας ὑπάρξεως
Θεῖος κοσμικός νοῦς

(There are two words, in Ancient Greek (Classical – Attic dialect) for “heart”. One of them is ἦτορ, which unfortunately can only be used in the nominative or the accusative case (Cfe Liddel Scott dictionaries). I used καρδία here because of the dative case required by the preposition εν. )

I'm trying to learn it by heart now! =)

latulipenoire said:

latulipenoire, I had an idea. I don't know if it is possible, but I was wondering if you could translate the Prayer of the Soul in ancient Greek.

You can find it here in English, modern Greek and Portuguese - among a lot of other languages:

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,12888.msg93128.html#msg93128

Click to expand...

Okay, I guess I managed to translate it roughly! All the forms are from the Attic dialect (used by Plato and Aristophanes), Alana, hope you already understand it!

Click to expand...

Thank you! I'll have a proper look later to understand it better and see if we can better it, but for now one thing that stands out is the first line:

Ὦ θεῖος κοσμικός νοῦς

which I think it should be

Ὦ θεῖε κοσμικέ νοῦ

because it's single masculine vocative declension.

(There are two words, in Ancient Greek (Classical – Attic dialect) for “heart”. One of them is ἦτορ, which unfortunately can only be used in the nominative or the accusative case (Cfe Liddel Scott dictionaries). I used καρδία here because of the dative case required by the preposition εν. )

Click to expand...

I prefer to use καρδία in both cases where it appears on the prayer above, for consistency and because it was more commonly used as I understand and it came through to modern Greek.

Interestingly, none of my 3 lexicons contain ἦτορ. I found it online.

Just for your interest and because it contains καρδία ;) I was looking up the quote from Aeschylus' Agamemnon, that Laura uses as signature:

He who learns must suffer
And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget
Falls drop by drop upon the heart,
And in our own despair, against our will,
Comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

Click to expand...

and found the original in ancient gr:

Ζῆνα δέ τις προφρόνως ἐπινίκια κλάζων
τεύξεται φρενῶν τὸ πᾶν,
τὸν φρονεῖν βροτοὺς ὁδώσαντα,
τὸν πάθει μάθος θέντα κυρίως ἔχειν.
στάζει δ' ἀνθ' ὕπνου πρὸ καρδίας
μνησιπήμων πόνος.
καὶ παρ' ἄκοντας ἦλθε σωφρονεῖν
δαιμόνων δέ που χάρις βίαιος
σέλμα σεμνὸν ἡμένων.

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which in modern gr will be:

Μα όποιος του Δία τη νίκη από καρδιάς τιμά
της γνώσεως τον καρπό τρυγά.
Που ωδήγησε τον άνθρωπο στη γνώση
κ' έβαλε νόμο: πάθος μάθος,
που ως και στον ύπνο, στην καρδιά μας
στάζει τον πόνο, που θυμίζει
με τρόμο τα παθήματά μας
κι αθέλητα μας συνετίζει.
Μα κάνει χάρη ο θεός αλήθεια
που κυβερνά μ' αυστηροσύνη
τον κόσμο, απ' τα ψηλά του σπίτια. ~ 1911 translation by Yiannis Griparis

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I put in italics the words that are used still today.

And I actually read a few english translations of it, but the one quoted on the very top here is the best sounding one and captures too the meaning the author was trying to convey. But I can only imagine how hard is the word of scholars who translate in english languages that they can write and read but don't really speak or use in everyday life.

Thank you! I'll have a proper look later to understand it better and see if we can better it, but for now one thing that stands out is the first line:

Ὦ θεῖος κοσμικός νοῦς

which I think it should be

Ὦ θεῖε κοσμικέ νοῦ

because it's single masculine vocative declension.

Click to expand...

Thank you Alana, for your quick feedback. You're right, I forgot to use the vocative case even though there was such a big O-mega! =)

Quote

(There are two words, in Ancient Greek (Classical – Attic dialect) for “heart”. One of them is ἦτορ, which unfortunately can only be used in the nominative or the accusative case (Cfe Liddel Scott dictionaries). I used καρδία here because of the dative case required by the preposition εν. )


I prefer to use καρδία in both cases where it appears on the prayer above, for consistency and because it was more commonly used as I understand and it came through to modern Greek.

Interestingly, none of my 3 lexicons contain ἦτορ. I found it online.

Click to expand...

I agree with you again! Just made the corrections:

Ὴ προσευχή τῆς ψυχῆς

Ὦ θεῖε κοσμικέ νοῦ
Ἱερά συνείδησις ἐν ὁλῷ κόσμῳ
Ἐνεγκοῦσα ἐν καρδίᾳ
Κῦβερνήτης τοῦ νοῦ
Σωτήρ τῆς ψυχῆς
Ζῆθι ἔν μοι τήμερον
Ἴσθι ἐμόν ἄρτον τῆς ἡμέρης
Ὧς δίδωμι ἄλλοις ἄρτον
Βοήθει μοι ἐπιρρωννύναι ἐν γνῶσει
Τοῦ ὁλοῦ κόσμου
Ἀποκαθαῖρε ἐμά ὄμματα
Ἵνα ὅρω
Ἀποκαθαῖρε ἐμάς ἀκοάς
Ἵνα ἀκουω
Ἀποκαθαρίζε ἐμήν καρδίαν
Ἵνα τ`εἰδῶ καὶ φιλῶ
Τόν ἀγίασμα τῆς ἐτέας ὑπάρξεως
Θεῖος κοσμικός νοῦς

And I actually read a few english translations of it, but the one quoted on the very top here is the best sounding one and captures too the meaning the author was trying to convey. But I can only imagine how hard is the word of scholars who translate in english languages that they can write and read but don't really speak or use in everyday life.

Click to expand...

Wow! How different the modern greek version is from the original...Thank you once again for pointing this out, I had noticed Laura's signature but didn't give it much attention until now!

About ἦτορ:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=h%29%2Ftor&la=greek#Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=h%29=tor-contents

I am still working on it ;) I can tell by reading that it is not correct in some parts (probably because we use some ancient gr in church and other phrases in everyday life still) so I know it has to "sound" a certain way (when words are put together, conjugations, declension, etc). But to find the right words it takes me hours of investigation and reading

So far I have the following.

Ὦ θεῖε κοσμικέ νοῦ
Ἱερά συνείδησις ἐν ὁλῷ κόσμῳ
Ἐνεγκοῦσα Ἐνεγκών ἐν καρδίᾳ (because νοῦs is masculine and it is still addressing the divine cosmic mind)
Κῦβερνήτης Kυβερνῆτα τοῦ νοῦ (because we are addressing him directly)
Σωτήρ Σῶτερ τῆς ψυχῆς (same as above)
Ζῆθι ἔν μοι τήμερον [Ζῆσον ἐντός ἐμοῦ σήμερον] (that's how I would translate it personally, does it sound any good? :P )
Ἴσθι ἐμόν ἄρτον τῆς ἡμέρης [ Δος ἐμοῦ τὸν ἄρτον τὸν ἐπιούσιον] (since you used δίδωμι below and ἐπιούσιον because that's how it is in the Lord's Prayer in ancient Gr and it means more than "a daily bread", but "substantial and essential")*
Ὧς δίδωμι ἄλλοις ἄρτον

* The verse from the Lord's Prayer in ancient gr:

τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον

Though when we address the Lord in LP we talk from us: ἡμῶν, ἡμῖν , but when addressing the DCM in the POTS it's just me talking to her/him/it, in first person.

And also note how σήμερον is used, that's why I changed it in the previous sentence as well.