How to make "objective art"

Hello everyone :)

I often wondered what I could do with my artistic skills besides my professional work. I admire the work of psychologists, journalists, historians, scientists, songwriters, moviemakers, authors and artists, who try to be honest and truthful and who are not in the business of putting people back to sleep. It's a way to deal with the grim state of our world in a creative way.

I'm a great admirer of Mr. Fish, an artist who's work you find often displayed on the Signs-Pages. http://www.truthdig.com/staff/mr_fish This is what I would call „objective art“ since it promotes political and social truths in a clear and original way. That's what I like to do as well, learning how to communicate the truth through images. But my visuals often turn out to be too complicated. So it's something I'd like to learn.

I thought maybe it would help if I showed you my ideas in an early stage in order to make sure that they work the way it is intended, worthy of being finished. So feel free to like or dislike it. I appreciate any form of constructive criticism. If you find this whole thread a bad idea, please say so as well :)

This is the first sketch. It's about „Vegetarianism“.

Nice, i like it. My suggestion would be: if you removed the tree from lower part, the contrast between the forrest "eden"/home and the field "desert" might be stronger. Thanks for letting to see work in progress.

Thanks for sharing, that's a nice concept. I think objective art should show reality in an easy to understand way. Sometimes it will need captions like a comic to illustrate the point. But I think there is something to just a powerful image giving the message.

There is an example of this but I cannot remember the artist's name. He does colored drawings of political truths and they hit me with a feeling of, "Whoa!" An example of one was on Sott and it was a bunch of people with ropes bringing down a statue of a leader. Only the statue was on a wheel that spun so they were also bringing a new statue that looked the same while they brought down the old one. It's things like that that I find the best in having an impact on me.

That being said, words help if you cannot tell purely in images. Mr. Fish does a good job at that. I commend you for your work, forget-me-not. I'd like to do something like this, but I lack the drawing skills. I might give it a try though and see what I can come up with one of these days.

osher said:

Nice, i like it. My suggestion would be: if you removed the tree from lower part, the contrast between the forrest "eden"/home and the field "desert" might be stronger. Thanks for letting to see work in progress.

Click to expand...

Thanks :) and thanks for the suggestion. I'm thinking about it. But I'm wondering: I put the tree into the picture below to indicate that it's the same place some time later. So that the answer to the question the pupil asks in the above image comes in form of devastating agriculture that takes their forest, their school and their very lifes. My point is that it's a thinking error to assume that a vegetarian diet spares the lifes of animals, because most of the planets surface is already covered with corn fields, places where once were forests with plant and animal life. If I took the tree away, the corn field below could be a place somewhere else and the animals would still be safe? I guess most people wouldn't consider a corn field to be a form of devastation, unless I showed them the connection, how destructive this particular corn field is to these animals. That's what I was thinking.

3D Student said:

Thanks for sharing, that's a nice concept. I think objective art should show reality in an easy to understand way. Sometimes it will need captions like a comic to illustrate the point. But I think there is something to just a powerful image giving the message.

There is an example of this but I cannot remember the artist's name. He does colored drawings of political truths and they hit me with a feeling of, "Whoa!" An example of one was on Sott and it was a bunch of people with ropes bringing down a statue of a leader. Only the statue was on a wheel that spun so they were also bringing a new statue that looked the same while they brought down the old one. It's things like that that I find the best in having an impact on me.

Click to expand...

I think so too :) It would be interesting to find out what artist that is. When an image works without captions, that's great. I admire artists who are able to do this. I think an image can be understood by everyone if the artist really is interested in communicating his vision to the audience, instead of just being the great virtuoso, who wants to be admired. He or she has to consider how people see and feel, psychology of perception, what is commonly known and what is not and put yourself in the position of the ones you want to address. The goal is to be understood.

What I find most puzzling are those works of art, that are expressive but you can't really say, what it actually tells you. It is as if it communicated directly to your subconscious and you are only half aware of it... or maybe it's more a feeling rather than something your intellect can work with. The movie "Mullholland Drive" by David Lynch could be an example for the latter. It's mystifying. It effects me in some way. I find this also quite interesting. However in this case it's not about mystifying people, quite the contrary :P

3D Student said:

That being said, words help if you cannot tell purely in images. Mr. Fish does a good job at that. I commend you for your work, forget-me-not. I'd like to do something like this, but I lack the drawing skills. I might give it a try though and see what I can come up with one of these days.

Click to expand...

Thanks :P I encourage you to try it yourself. Some ideas can be visualized in a simple way. There are many ways to express yourself. And it doesn't have to look like Mr. Fish or Walt Disney to deliver the message. Make people understand your idea, no matter how.

forget-me-not said:

osher said:

Nice, i like it. My suggestion would be: if you removed the tree from lower part, the contrast between the forrest "eden"/home and the field "desert" might be stronger. Thanks for letting to see work in progress.

Click to expand...

Thanks :) and thanks for the suggestion. I'm thinking about it. But I'm wondering: I put the tree into the picture below to indicate that it's the same place some time later. So that the answer to the question the pupil asks in the above image comes in form of devastating agriculture that takes their forest, their school and their very lifes. My point is that it's a thinking error to assume that a vegetarian diet spares the lifes of animals, because most of the planets surface is already covered with corn fields, places where once were forests with plant and animal life. If I took the tree away, the corn field below could be a place somewhere else and the animals would still be safe? I guess most people wouldn't consider a corn field to be a form of devastation, unless I showed them the connection, how destructive this particular corn field is to these animals. That's what I was thinking.

Click to expand...

I thought that was the reason the tree was still there. Anyway, I thought of another way (which could also be combined with the current one) of showing the connection: adding a whirrr (or other relevant) noise in the distance to the first picture.

EDIT: But then, the caption may need to be changed in the second picture. For example, "The answer soon arrived."

You could also add to the second frame one of the animals, maybe the teacher, standing there surprised or devastated. Unless the intent was to show complete elimination of the animals and their habitat.

I've seen concept artists start out doing compositions in black and white thumbnail sketches. That way they can get the values right and put in their points of focus in the high contrast areas. It's kind of exploratory and they pick the best one that stands out. Of course starting with the line-art first gets down the specific idea you want to convey. It's interesting to see the many ways you can reach the product of the creative process.

It's interesting to explore these suggestions. I'll make some more sketches. :P Then we can compare different approaches.

I like the freshness of your tract and the idea beyond the work you're doing, It might come useful for this forum also as an alternative way to express concept and values. I'm looking forward for more about it!

3D Student said:

There is an example of this but I cannot remember the artist's name. He does colored drawings of political truths and they hit me with a feeling of, "Whoa!" An example of one was on Sott and it was a bunch of people with ropes bringing down a statue of a leader. Only the statue was on a wheel that spun so they were also bringing a new statue that looked the same while they brought down the old one.

Click to expand...

I think you're talking about Pawel Kuczynski a polish artist, here I found some of his drawings:
_http://www.themirrorpost.com/2014/08/these-29-clever-drawings-will-make-you.html

Concerning objective art: I've, also, been struggling with this concept a lot, even before finding Gurdjieff teachings which gave me a new frame for a discomfort I felt since I started studying art.
During my formation I moved from Florence (supposed to be a receptacle of artistic values, and possibly a place where finding something objective) to Berlin (the new centre for so called "contemporary art", totally subjective) and then back to Florence...
This question brought me to a still point where I was not able to produce anymore because of this search for objectivity, perfection and quest for a complete alignment about what I tried to convey and the message received.
Reading G. I got the idea that Objective Art it is something deeply transformative for the viewer as it aligns all the centers in a sort of realization about reality. Interior and exterior.
I think objective art can only come from an artist with a certain degree of objectiveness and can only be understand with different degree of the same, something like a symbol with different levels of understanding before arriving to the objective core.
I gave up the idea of producing one or more "Opera"(Opus) since I think the "Opera" can be just one.IMO
The best advice I've been given during a workshop in Growtosky's way to perform was to stop calling and searching for anything I was doing in the direction of an art piece but mostly, calling it an exercise for Art. The teacher said that, as an example, Chopin compositions where all exercises for him, and never something complete and finished (don't know if this is true, but I still like the idea).
That gave me back some of the pleasure of experimenting and searching, even playing with what I was doing.
May your exercises bring you to the "Opera"!

Psalehesost said:

Anyway, I thought of another way (which could also be combined with the current one) of showing the connection: adding a whirrr (or other relevant) noise in the distance to the first picture.

EDIT: But then, the caption may need to be changed in the second picture. For example, "The answer soon arrived."

Click to expand...

Hi Psalehesost :) Thanks for your input. This sketch reflects your idea of the incoming danger in form of a bulldozer. It would be definitely more dramatic this way. I figured that three panels are needed to show the action in a more effective way. I make another sketch, that represents the idea with the surviving teacher.

3D Student said:

An example of one was on Sott and it was a bunch of people with ropes bringing down a statue of a leader. Only the statue was on a wheel that spun so they were also bringing a new statue that looked the same while they brought down the old one. It's things like that that I find the best in having an impact on me.

Click to expand...

Intothefield said:

I think you're talking about Pawel Kuczynski a polish artist, here I found some of his drawings:
_http://www.themirrorpost.com/2014/08/these-29-clever-drawings-will-make-you.html

Click to expand...

I added the pricture 3D Student described earlier. Thanks Intothefield for the link! Haha! Great piece: The mechanicalness of human revolution, so to speak :)

Two more sketches: number three with the surviving teacher in despear ...

...and four is the one without the tree. :P

Intothefield said:

Concerning objective art: I've, also, been struggling with this concept a lot, even before finding Gurdjieff teachings which gave me a new frame for a discomfort I felt since I started studying art.
During my formation I moved from Florence (supposed to be a receptacle of artistic values, and possibly a place where finding something objective) to Berlin (the new centre for so called "contemporary art", totally subjective) and then back to Florence...
This question brought me to a still point where I was not able to produce anymore because of this search for objectivity, perfection and quest for a complete alignment about what I tried to convey and the message received.

Click to expand...

That's interesting. I've always had difficulties with art, with the word itself actually. What does it mean? Isn't the word itself completely subjective? I come from an artistic family and I remember endless arguments with my father about what art is and what not. For me that entire academic sphere of art history and all those old masters were like an exclusive club of self-titled art authorities, deciding who's in and who's out... on what basis? I found it unfair that comic artists, illustrators, movie makers, aso. weren't considered at all. To me it was all completely subjective and narrow minded. My father has been influenced by those art specialists and did not dare to think for himself. With those judgments he couldn't even do himself justice. So he was quite narrow minded and I didn't want to have anything to do with it. I became the non-artist. It was a form of protest :P Of course I've also an issue with my father that makes it even more complicated. Anyway... I'd like to find ways to express certain observations, perceptions, insights, knowledge about the world we live in, something that can be shared, that we all have in common.

Intothefield said:

Reading G. I got the idea that Objective Art it is something deeply transformative for the viewer as it aligns all the centers in a sort of realization about reality. Interior and exterior.
I think objective art can only come from an artist with a certain degree of objectiveness and can only be understand with different degree of the same, something like a symbol with different levels of understanding before arriving to the objective core.

Click to expand...

I agree. I think there might be different levels of objective art, depending on the level of development. But it has to start somewhere... somewhere less subjective?

Intothefield said:

I gave up the idea of producing one or more "Opera"(Opus) since I think the "Opera" can be just one.IMO

Click to expand...

What do you mean by that: the opera can be just one? Curious word "Opus", it sounds so highbrow, at least to me ;).

Intothefield said:

The best advice I've been given during a workshop in Growtosky's way to perform was to stop calling and searching for anything I was doing in the direction of an art piece but mostly, calling it an exercise for Art. The teacher said that, as an example, Chopin compositions where all exercises for him, and never something complete and finished (don't know if this is true, but I still like the idea).
That gave me back some of the pleasure of experimenting and searching, even playing with what I was doing.

Click to expand...

I like that. That's so much better then "opus".

I really have to thank you forget-me-not for blowing my mind again about the issue of objective art etc...
If it took so long for me to reply its because I've been thinking about it a lot lately, realizing how important it is for me this field of research. I searched on the web more about the topic but right now the only thing I found it's an essay that also Monotonic suggested me to read in another tread.
Here it is: _http://www.gurdjieff.org/challenger2.htm an essay on Objective Art

forget-me-not said:

I'd like to find ways to express certain observations, perceptions, insights, knowledge about the world we live in, something that can be shared, that we all have in common.

Click to expand...

This remind me the chapter of "Beelzebub Tales" in which G. talks about theatre and it's origin:
He says that in the beginning, actors where experimenting different techniques to put themselves in someone else shoes really reproducing physically,emotionally and mentally the attitude of different kinds of men. This calls me to a track, in the field of theatre, that one of the teacher of my counseling school it's following: linking the characters of the Commedia dell' arte to the Enneatypes, meaning that each particular character shows certain characteristic, personality traits or ways to react toward reality. Actors of this old style used to spend their entire life playing just one character writing giant pamphlets where they established codified actions and reactions to other character.
I'm not a big fan of the Enneagram theory about personality traits but this mostly to say that a search for objectiveness start as a search and observation as the same it's for ourself.
Like first master the instrument with which you do art with then maybe you can begin to really DO.

forget-me-not said:

I agree. I think there might be different levels of objective art, depending on the level of development. But it has to start somewhere... somewhere less subjective?

Click to expand...

To me this question it's tricky and only got me stuck. Right now I surrender to the idea of not being able to do anything objective and at the same time looking towards what I've done after it's done to detect the subjectivity.

Much like G. said that before you can remember yourself try to remember that you cannot :)
Maybe a good question to start with before exhibiting something can be: is this work of art externally considered?
Does it include the experience of someone else or just mine?

forget-me-not said:

Intothefield said:

I gave up the idea of producing one or more "Opera"(Opus) since I think the "Opera" can be just one.IMO

Click to expand...

What do you mean by that: the opera can be just one? Curious word "Opus", it sounds so highbrow, at least to me ;).

Click to expand...

I used that on purpose cause I came to think that man itself can be a work of Art if he can master himself, as in Alchemy. Probably it's not by chance that alchemist used to refer to themselves as Artists.
If I look at the life of Gurdjieff and even that of Laura they seems to me like a great piece of Art.

Thanks again for your inputs

Hello everyone :)

Here is an older idea, that I've already finalized long before I decided to first test sketches on recipients. It shows Obama with his wife in the red room (White House). Any thoughts on this one? What does it tell you?