Stages in the Work, limited time for progress, and karmic debt along the path

Stages 4 and 5

These stages mark the mesoteric phase of the octave and involve work on "being" whereas the exoteric phase involves work on the "functions". In the enneagram, there is a connection between points 1 and 4. I interpret this as one doing similar things externally as in point 1 (acquiring and sharing knowledge ) but with greater inner intensity and inner conviction. This builds as one persists. A possible practical effect in case of people who are following this path while being externally fully engaged in the matrix could be that one makes time to pursue such activities even in the midst of all that life throws at them. There is a sense of something amiss if one cannot engage in these activities due to pressing external circumstances. It can be described as a magnetic pull which the Work exerts on one who has crossed the first threshold. This is why it is said that it is better to turn back before crossing the first threshold because after that, it is difficult if not impossible, to find satisfaction in regular life activities alone excluding real growth of being.


If one persists in making being efforts and integrating knowledge such that it becomes understanding, then one passes into stage 5. In psychological terms, it is possible that one learns more and more about the various facets of the personality (or the many "i"s or programs) in stage 4 but the full import of what is seen becomes clear in stage 5. This is primarily the stage of suffering. One's being is prepared for "cooking" in stage 4 - washing, trimming, marinating etc. In stage 5, the fire is added. Psychologically, one can see with gradually increasing clarity not only what needs to change but is tormented by the inability to effect the change. One tries all the techniques that one has learned in earlier stages, gets help from others - yet there are some very stubborn aspects on which nothing seems to work. This is a crucial stage because one can choose to avoid these stubborn aspects, compensating with something else, keeping busy with activities which bypass the most painful part. One can serve the cause and do useful work in this way, but one is not likely to pass over the second threshold at point 6 - osit. Crossing over from 5 is most likely a rare occurrence. The "twice born" in 7 is a rare man and achieving this second birth is the coveted goal in all sincere spiritual practices. But before being "born again" one must "die" and to die while in the body is an exceedingly painful affair, more painful than death of the body. A teacher cannot carry the seeker across this second threshold - he/she can only guide, prepare and stoke the fire periodically. To die in this way, one needs to metaphorically throw oneself into the fire and stand the heat, allowing the cooking to take place.

At 5, the full import of karmic debt and inherited burdens is felt. One can feel angry and helpless due to this - but the debt has to be paid. Karma from progenitors can express epigenetically and/or as a psychic constellation acting as an ordering factor exerting a pull towards certain situations demanding certain resolutions.

Allegorical descriptions in alchemy and the grail legends perhaps allude to this general state of affairs, the so-called "dark night of the soul". In these descriptions, we can notice the aspect of "surrender". Parsifal falls asleep on his horse after exhausting fruitless search; Jonah gets swallowed by a whale and is trapped inside. In Jungian psychology, this is a period of chaos and helplessness where one needs to surrender to the unconscious and wait for the solution to emerge rather than attempting to force a solution through the conscious mind or ego. This is the place where faith is tested.

Or you can repentance so the karma is erased and you are born to be a free man again. This is difficult experience. Repentance is an action of self injury in depth of a heart. You can act upon those debts infinite number of times. But how you can do it truly in your heart to repay your debts? People repeats same mistakes many times. Each time lesson is harder. My experience is you don't have to be in state of "being" to have those lesson arranged for you. Universe laws work for you. But state of "being" you have described is an willingness to repent.

At 5, the full import of karmic debt and inherited burdens is felt. One can feel angry and helpless due to this - but the debt has to be paid. Karma from progenitors can express epigenetically and/or as a psychic constellation acting as an ordering factor exerting a pull towards certain situations demanding certain resolutions.

So what is this anger? My experience is that when you feel angry you hurt your soul thus you hurt your temple of body. How this temple look when is brougt to ruin? It is crippled. You can observe this temple and look upon places that need maintenance. This is a time when you can realize injuries of you soul. Yogis try to move energy through body and put tension on places that are ill. Then you can try to get rid of injuries. But many fails. So you can enforce natural pull by you own will and work harder on your faults.

obyvatel said:

For those who are not familiar with enneagram, a few quotes to get started. The enneagram is a symbol that was brought to the west in recent time by Gurdjieff. G said the following regarding the enneagram

[quote author=ISOTM]
"Speaking in general it must be understood that the enneagram is a universal symbol. All knowledge can be included in the enneagram and with the help of the enneagram it can be interpreted. And in this connection only what a man is able to put into the enneagram does he actually know, that is, understand. What he cannot put into the enneagram he does not understand.

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[/quote]

I had only heard of the Enneagram as a method for determining personality types. I have a friend who taught seminars on it with that emphasis. Not sure if she still does. BTW, I think she had my type all wrong :P

However, in that regard she does present some interesting concepts, and they do make sense, especially given the Gurdjieff quote. And with Bennett's kitchen example it's clear how Gurdjieff could hold such esteem for the Enneagram. That two such distinctly different things, personalities and food (well, maybe not quite so different considering that personalities ARE food for fiends), could fit so nicely into the Enneagram is a testament to its acclaimed status as a universal symbol.

I think it's also important to note (or at least, it has been useful - in my practical applications of the Law of 3 and Law of 7 - to include in my perceptual process), that the enneagram is a triple-triplicity, that is, formed from 3 interlocking triads, each with their own qualities. The points which form the inner triangle of 9, 3 and 6 form the fundamental triad, these are generally referred to as points of the entry of forces, where a new note 'Do,' from a new octave, intersects the interval of the first octave (either the 'mechano-coinciding' interval of mi-fa, or the 'intentionally-actualized' interval of si-do) in order to assist its further development. Points 3 and 6 are not so much moments in the linear-time perception of the outer circle (1234 ...) as they are forces which assist, or add their force to the seven-fold process (there is only one true "Do," though it manifests in 3 aspects; affirming, denying, reconciling; positive, negative, neutral, etc.).

1, 4 and 7 form a triad which share a quality of preparation. In Bennett's example, 1 is the "kitchen is ready for work." It had to be prepared in order to be ready, and more directly, the preparation which goes into a "ready-kitchen" will largely reflect the subjective experience and objective result of that kitchen. How many times have you been in a "ready" kitchen which did not have a complete set of measuring cups, or spoons, or sharpened knives, or neatly arranged utensils? The quality of vibration is conferred, and compounded, step to step. At step 4, Bennett has "food is being prepared for cooking," and this clearly illustrates the qualitative attribute of this triad. Step 7, "Food is served" is really a very abbreviated way of describing this point. At this step, there is a preparation for eating which takes place -- appetizers would be served, drinks poured, special dietary needs attended to, even prayers and blessings said. The work becomes increasingly subtle as we advance. One could simply throw the food in a pile on the center of the table and let people fend for themselves, but great care can enter here, and often the preparations at point 7 will go unnoticed by the 'uninitiated,' but those with eyes to see, or with "professional attention" will see the marks.

2, 5 and 8 form a triad which share a quality of action. In the kitchen enneagram, we see step 2 as "kitchen starts work." It moves into action, to doing. While food as a force or substance will not arrive until 3, there is plenty of work which begins to take place -- how much time until the meal must be eaten? What will be eaten? How much do we have on hand? What will we need to acquire? A kitchen itself can only be prepared to a certain base state, but you cannot prepare for every occurrence or every meal. At step 2 we take the required actions as informed by the process at hand. At step 5, "food is being cooked," a certain action is again taking place, or rather, is demanded to take place. The food can sit, for a certain time, at step 4, never crossing this 'point of no return' (for once you put the dough in the oven, whatever it becomes, it will never again be what is was). A certain leap of faith is required here, and the geometry of the enneagram should reflect this clearly. We are at the furthest point from 9, we are in the outer edges. Where the 'linear' effort of moving from points 1 to 2 to 3 has been 'downhill,' something turns-round here and begins to move 'uphill,' up the circle and returning to 9. In terms of music theory many have equated this with the diminished fifth or the augmented fourth, the tritone, the "devil's interval." Beelzebub called it the "harnel-aoot" and said "its disharmony flowed by itself from the change of the two aforementioned Stopinders" (p. 754, BTTHG), that is, the lengthening of the mi-fa interval and the shortening of the si-do (from the Autoegocratic Process to the Trogoautoegocratic Process). Step 8, "food is eaten" is again a short hand for what is really taking place here, it's (hopefully) an intentional assimilation of prepared substances into one's own being, for a higher purpose, but "eating" should suffice in terms of understanding the active quality of this triad within the larger process of the triple-triplicity which is the enneagram. At step 9, a force is created in us from the nourishment of the food, a force which is qualitatively informed by every step of the process, including how we ate. It is this life force in us which truly operates the functions of the kitchen, and it's what the kitchen is FOR. As I said, however, there is only one "Do"and that is the Being of Beings, so it's important to remember that "fractal" nature of the enneagram, to see that what happens in this kitchen happens also in the cosmos at large.

Gurdjieff said everything is either eating or being eaten, or preparing to eat or be eaten. Action, preparation. When we understand the true scale of the "kitchen" and the fundamental laws which are taking place, we begin to see our place in the "trogoautoegocratic process" much clearer. That means, of course, "I by the law of my own being eat myself."

[quote author=Martfotai]
Points 3 and 6 are not so much moments in the linear-time perception of the outer circle (1234 ...) as they are forces which assist, or add their force to the seven-fold process ......
[/quote]

There is a 3-foldness of the time aspect. The "time" of the first third is different from the "time" of the second third and the final third has its own "time" as well. The first third which deals with functions unfolds in clock or linear time. The second third which deals with being unfolds differently. Something is transformed in the second third - which is a qualitative change. In linear time we can see something as A and then as B (indicating transformation) if we are standing outside the process. However, when it is our state of being that is changing the experience of time is changed as well. This is indicated by common experience as well as scientific experiments. A simple example would be when we are in a bored state, time seems to drag on, minutes seeming like hours. When we are in an interested, engaged state, time seems to fly by, hours seeming like minutes. Some have attempted to describe time as having a component of length - as in things happening sequentially; and a component of breadth - where things happen together or simultaneously. In this sense, bored state of being is a long and skinny line; engaged state of being is short and thick.

The third state of time is difficult to describe. I have not come across any scientific explanation that I can understand which describes this. There probably are complicated mathematical constructs out there for this. In words, we can say that the third state of time is associated with that which brings about transformation in state of being. We can measure linear time through a clock mechanism, we can experience the thickness of time by observing our state of being, but perhaps we need the ability to completely step outside of ourselves to see the third aspect of time. This third aspect of time may be related to the degree of objective freedom of action we have.

Speaking in another way, these different experiences of time may be related to the different bodies of man. If we have not crystallized the higher bodies to a certain degree, we may not be able to relate to the corresponding aspects of time - osit.

[quote author=Martfotai]
1, 4 and 7 form a triad which share a quality of preparation.
.................................
2, 5 and 8 form a triad which share a quality of action.
[/quote]

Agree.

obyvatel said:

There is a 3-foldness of the time aspect. The "time" of the first third is different from the "time" of the second third and the final third has its own "time" as well. The first third which deals with functions unfolds in clock or linear time. The second third which deals with being unfolds differently. Something is transformed in the second third - which is a qualitative change. In linear time we can see something as A and then as B (indicating transformation) if we are standing outside the process. However, when it is our state of being that is changing the experience of time is changed as well. This is indicated by common experience as well as scientific experiments. A simple example would be when we are in a bored state, time seems to drag on, minutes seeming like hours. When we are in an interested, engaged state, time seems to fly by, hours seeming like minutes. Some have attempted to describe time as having a component of length - as in things happening sequentially; and a component of breadth - where things happen together or simultaneously. In this sense, bored state of being is a long and skinny line; engaged state of being is short and thick.

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A small group of friends and I decided last year to take on some project or activity with the special question of investigating, more closely and in a practical manner, some process which could elucidate these principles for us (law of 3 and 7). After a couple meetings (of meeting once a week, for about 2 hours) we decided upon our activity, that we would replicate a Baluchi prayer rug, knot for knot (as a cross stitch, not woven on a loom). Having decided upon our activity, and our pattern, we had then only to build a special table on which we could stitch the rug, and then to order the appropriate yarn. These first few steps, within the context of the whole project, happened relatively quickly (and the building of the special table was an obvious lateral or side octave which was necessary before continuing further), but once we actually began to stitch, the subjective experience of time changed. We had our work cut out for us -- the time for theory had changed into the time for practice. Objectively, time itself did not change, it did not accelerate or decelerate on our behalf, but the experience of it slowed considerably because of the nature of the process and work at hand. In fact, we have been stitching for over a year now, and only with the last couple weeks do we see the end in sight, and from practice we move into philosophy, that is, we reconnect to all the purposes for which the project was begun, why we were doing it and what has come of it; we look back upon the process itself and assimilate the learnings for the development of our Reason (G says that at one point in history, these three "schools" of theory/practice/philosophy were "divided up", each going to a different location -- theory to Egypt, practice to Persia/Mesopotamia/Turkestan and philosophy to India). So I give this example in response to your statement about "when we are in a bored state, time seems to drag on, minutes seeming like hours. When we are in an interested, engaged state, time seems to fly by, hours seeming like minutes." This is true to a degree, but no amount of being interested or engaged will make the actual process go faster or slower, only one's subjective experience of time.

When a person is bored, it is likely they are not existing in a three-centered state of self-remembering, but from a predominance of one center over the others, usually the thinking center. I think it's helpful to remember that the 3 centers perceive time in their own scales, the quickest being the physical center and the slowest, the mental.

obyvatel said:

The third state of time is difficult to describe. I have not come across any scientific explanation that I can understand which describes this. There probably are complicated mathematical constructs out there for this. In words, we can say that the third state of time is associated with that which brings about transformation in state of being. We can measure linear time through a clock mechanism, we can experience the thickness of time by observing our state of being, but perhaps we need the ability to completely step outside of ourselves to see the third aspect of time. This third aspect of time may be related to the degree of objective freedom of action we have.

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I believe that you are getting at "the period of seven dimensions of Time." We are told that space has 3 dimensions, which we are familiar with as height, length and width. We are also told that time has 3 dimensions as well; time as a line (1-dimensional; 1, 2, 3, etc), time as a surface (2-dimensional, "simultaneous time" or "eternity" for a single time line) and time as a solid (3-dimensional, all possible time lines existing simultaneously, in eternity, as a solid object). The 7th dimension is both the whole and the point (0-dimension) which is the subjective experience of any 'moment' or coordinate in this solid.

So to understand this 3rd dimension of time we have to understand it as a solid which contains All. An example I often give is that of a small paper flip-book, the kind perhaps you made as a child in the corner of a notebook. "Time" is the sequential procession of each picture, one after the other. While each picture itself does not move, the sequential procession of one to another creates the illusion of movement -- the line of time, the first dimension of time. The book itself is the 2nd dimension of time, the time surface, as it is the "eternity" for each moment or image in the book. The 3rd dimension would be all possible flip-books existing simultaneously. This is useful insofar as it transmits the idea of Unity, and that all things are One and all things are interconnected.

obyvatel said:

Speaking in another way, these different experiences of time may be related to the different bodies of man. If we have not crystallized the higher bodies to a certain degree, we may not be able to relate to the corresponding aspects of time - osit.

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I think you're right about this. "Simultaneous time" is also a very emotional-centered perception of time, as we do not experience time in our emotions in the same linear sense that the body must. Through hypnosis it becomes clear that there is always a part of ourselves which experiences our lives simultaneously, as if it were still there now. Being able to perceive the solid structure of time (and the Unity which it entails, and all the subsequent implications thereof) is certainly a function of the 3rd brain, which would correlate to the soul-body, for our soul is but one shard (0-D) of the Absolute which seeks to experience itself and return to the Whole (7-D).

Thank you Data & obyvatel. It sure does lens perspective and understanding.

Mr. Mouravieff, let me FTFY ;) I think the involutional octave fit Mouravieff's perspective of an initial interval 'do-si' which the aspirant must face, but taken as a whole octave of man's life, we are prepared to a certain extent (do-re-mi-) in life, then the rest is up to us. An involutional octave starts with a high vibration and moves into lower levels as it descends (such as the Ray of Creation, moving through levels of density, or "oxygens").

Thank you so much for this discussion. It's been on my mind and I can't help but think that one of the latest sessions with the C's brings what we need to climb this staircase into perspective:

August 16th 2014 Session

Q: (L) But how did we manage to get awakened consciences, and how can other people manage to do it, too?

A: Recall how you started, you acted on your own as the conscience of the world.

Q: (L) Well, what do you mean? How do you mean?

A: Recall why you began to try to see everything that was happening on your plane of existence.

[Love for her grandmother, children and overwhelming drive for her children's well-being, if I remember correctly]

….16-08-2014 suite

A: Just work daily at becoming more aware on three levels
1. Body and immediate environment,
2. Wider world affairs,
3. Cosmos and spirit.

Q: (L) Shouldn't "spirit" go with "Body and immediate environment"?

A: No, it is via the first steps that one achieves cosmic consciousness.

Q: (L) I don't understand.

(Chu) You have to work on the body and environment, and then understand the wider world at first. And then you can develop cosmic consciousness and spirit.

(L) Oooh. So in other words, to achieve cosmic consciousness, i.e. true spiritual advancement, you have to expand your field of vision to be very wide?

A: Exactly. Those who suggest that you must look only within live in a singular bubble.

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This seems to fit the process as explained by Obvyatel. We have disappointment with our immediate environment, we seek and find a teacher and a Way. Then we study under them to develop ourselves and learn about the wider world, until we reach the point that our Being is touched by the greater reality we live in at stage 4. Then it seems that those aspects of ourselves which we cannot change, and which stubbornly limit our development, must succumb to our overwhelming desire to live for the sake of others, to live for a better world, as was the case with Laura. And our Conscience can be awakened. Am I getting this correct, or am I off?

Hesper, thank you for posting this.

Hesper said:

Then it seems that those aspects of ourselves which we cannot change, and which stubbornly limit our development, must succumb to our overwhelming desire to live for the sake of others, to live for a better world, as was the case with Laura. And our Conscience can be awakened. Am I getting this correct, or am I off?

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Yes, yes, this is exactly the way anybody can achieve spirit and cosmic consciousness! The learning process was very well illustrated by the C's!

Thank for you, Data, for starting this thread, and others for chiming in, with special mentions to obyvatel - your lengthy explanations helped me a great deal in making this concept more understandable.

It's still a bit challenging to translate all of this to a personal life, and I'm trying to figure out where to exactly place myself on the staircase. I know I crossed the first threshold, because I'm unable to go back (not that I really want to, although there is sometimes an urge in me to dissociate negatively and forget about The Work, if only for a second; but this never ends well), and I'm trying to implement being to my knowledge (while acquiring more knowledge, because there is still so much to learn), to really utilize it, which is an ongoing, hard and very challenging process. At the same time there is a lot of suffering, mostly from external sources (petty tyrants?), but by battling them I feel like I'm battling myself. I really need to reflect on in, and try to decipher what archetypal drama is plying in my life right now.

Anyway, I sure am going to bookmark this thread :)

Psalehesost said:

Approaching Infinity said:

One thing I don't understand about Mouravieff is his focus on the descending/devolutionary octave (do-si-la-etc.), instead of the ascending/evolutionary octave. From reading G and other related books, it would make more sense for soul development to follow an ascending octave (do-re-mi-etc.). Doesn't change the overall picture of what perhaps to expect at certain levels, but I think Mouravieff missed the boat there and it makes the picture more confusing than it already is.

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What came to mind for me - no idea if it is correct - is what Gurdjieff speaks of, that conscious evolution is "against life, against nature" - that is, against the status quo (both internally and externally). It is opposed to our mechanical, service to self orientation, and opposed to the control system under which we live. A descending octave would seem to make sense if evolution is viewed in terms of destroying our old self and nature, and forging something new in its place. Or, as a process of death followed by a rebirth at the end.

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Yeah, nice - my take is that the devolving octave is the natural state of affairs in this STS oriented world. One has to swim upstream like a salmon if one hears the calling; if one seeks evolution. In the same way, ones original aim is thwarted and inverted (law of 7?) if one does not apply addition shocks to the vector of one's original aim at the right moments of the unfolding developments of the original action. Or it can be viewed in terms of confronting the general law.

I had this thread on the backburner, but thanks Data and obyvatel for the explanations. I understand the staircase and enneagram much better now. Great anaolgies too.

Some time back, Obyvatel started a thread on the ‘Five Being Strivings,’ and it had been on my mind quiet a lot, and still is.... found here http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,36129.0.html

Anyway when I saw the enneagram, I thought of the five being striving, I think of strivings four and five coming closer together... it just seems like that to me...

Same with

obyvatel said:

Stages 4 and 5

These stages mark the mesoteric phase of the octave and involve work on "being" whereas the exoteric phase involves work on the "functions". In the enneagram...
...
...
Allegorical descriptions in alchemy and the grail legends perhaps allude to this general state of affairs, the so-called "dark night of the soul". In these descriptions, we can notice the aspect of "surrender". Parsifal falls asleep on his horse after exhausting fruitless search; Jonah gets swallowed by a whale and is trapped inside. In Jungian psychology, this is a period of chaos and helplessness where one needs to surrender to the unconscious and wait for the solution to emerge rather than attempting to force a solution through the conscious mind or ego. This is the place where faith is tested.

Click to expand...

And formed perhaps...

Recently I have been experiencing a hunger for truly understanding the enneagram, for obtaining a more objective vision of how to use time, move forward with projects, and become more esoterically aware of my own and others' development. After re-reading this thread I'm very glad I did, as the discussion has proven invaluable for understanding both myself and the Aim. It will take some more effort before it really sinks in but I decided to share my first exercise in understanding the enneagram in terms of our esoteric development.

From my understanding point 9 in the enneagram, the point where B influences enter and the student becomes prepared/led to esoteric work, is analogous to the kitchen being built in the 'kitchen analogy'. In order for the cycle to begin the kitchen must first be a kitchen, the student must first do the work of becoming a student, the teacher must accomplish the work necessary to teach.

From the 'inner perspective' Step 1 starts out oriented toward Step 4 - the beginning of the mesoteric cycle and, in the kitchen analogy, the point when the food is being prepared: "To get the kitchen ready means the cook needs to figure out what kind of food would be cooked to serve how many people and what number of utensils will be needed to be brought out." We start out learning what the Work is about, what the aim is, and then in Stage 2 we begin acting on that information, learning exercises, giving what we can in order to further the Aim.

As Obvyatel pointed out in the kitchen analogy, the cook, at step 2, is preparing the kitchen, learning the steps, and is under the influence of stage 8, when the 'food is eaten'. Perhaps for our purposes that is the hope that the Self will be found, escape from the 'Matrix' will occur? But at stage 2 we have no hope of knowing 'when the food will be eaten' or if we will burn it, or ruin it before it's time to eat, or if there will even be any food to cook! The raw food doesn't even arrive until Stage 3. So we just do the best we can, developing via the exercises provided (Eiriu Eolas, dietary changes, posting on the forum, reading recommended books, reading SOTT etc) and moving forward one step at a time.

I find it interesting that Stage 3 is when we finally get the 'food,' and it's connected to stages 6 and 9. I may be wrong but it seems to me that this is a realization, a point when sufficient objective information has been gained, enough 'house cleaning' and development of the intellect/emotions/body has been done, that one reaches the point where they are ready to struggle against the reality of the control system, to grow, and not quit when it bites back. Or, as Morpheus said of Neo when he stood his ground against his first agent, 'He's beginning to believe'.

This struggle leads naturally to stage 4. In the enneagram stage 4 is connected to both stages 1 and 2 - the acquiring of knowledge and learning how to 'Do'. From what I understand, at this stage the student is developing a more personal understanding of the Aim, and is learning and 'doing' in a more personalized manner, as they develop a better understanding of the difficulties and what's required of them.

This would naturally lead to the more conscious struggle inherent in Stage 5. At this point the student is coming face to face with obstacles he or she cannot overcome. They are dogging him or her every step of the way. But in the kitchen analogy the cook is cooking away in stage 5, and has his or her eye on stage 7, when the food is being served. What does this translate into?

7 - this marks the beginning of the esoteric phase. Here man is "born again" and is surrendered to the higher will. He is now a conscious servant to the Work.

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This reminds me of a saying, I can't remember where it came from, that the best way to learn virtue is to reflect on a virtuous person's life. In other words, perhaps the best way to make it through the bitter struggle of Stage 5 is to suffer while reflecting on the virtuous lives of people like Laura, Putin etc? Any thoughts?