jobs vs. The Work, homelessness & WANDERERing

kalibex said:

tohuwabohu said:

And if you are wondering if the environment matters then this is a big YES. Do you think that you get strong by being nonstop attacked? Well you might learn a things or two but will you be stronger if you bleed to death? I doubt it. I know what gurdieff promotes and yes i see it as a possible way but to be succesfull on that way you have to be first strong so you can fight off every petty tyrant and greedy creature. That is if you are alone. Do you think that you are strong enough?

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tohuwabohu, it sounds to me as if you are opining that when a person immerses him/herself in the 'System', he/she will end up too stressed by their environment to grow effectively. Is that an accurate reading of what you posted above?

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That is accurate kalibex. The system is designed to keep us weak, to keep us low on energy.
If you could accumulate enough energy then you could expand your awareness by utilizing it. It is very simple. One can look also at it like this. If I have some STS job, I am selling my time and energy for money. But can I buy me more awareness or strength for that money? I cant. Sure I can buy me some food and pay for some place but that is about it. But this life should be about much more than only surviving.
So this is not such a good deal after all.

I should add that it is not only the job that sucks the energy but also blockages in energetic flow.
That is why it is so important to heal emotionally and to regain the original shape of the soul.
Then it is all about liberating the blocked energy and conserving the energy.

You can still do it even if you have job. But from my experience it is extremely hard even if you are not distorted. Everything that is forced is blocking the energy. And as soon as the predators see that you glow they will try to have a feast on you. And you will give them your energy anytime you do something that is not in agreement with your path. They will even try to manipulate you if they discover that they cannot command you anymore. They can manifest through anyone at anytime. In my case it was my mother. That is why cheezemurda49 correctly says that one has to be very vigilant. He knows what he is talking about. I would say that a man alone has almost no chance at all. That is why tribes are important.

I think the introductory post that tohuwabohu made when he joined the forum provides context to what he is writing in this thread.

tohuwabohu said:

Hello my name is Marius and my only wish is to serve others. But to be honest I achieved such state only once. It was when I was not going to work. I was going out when I felt like doing it, I could read books and working on myself. I had time to think about who I am, and where I came from and where I am. And I was free. For one time I could forget about myself completely and only concentrate on others. I think there is nothing more beautiful. I felt so at ease whether alone or with people I never was alone. Nothing was bothering me. I knew that everything that happens is meant to be an opportunity to learn. And everything happens exactly the way it should. I knew that one day I will go back to where I came from. I knew that no one can force me to do something. I knew that I am part of everything that exist and that no one is less important and no one is more important than me.
And now I go to work and I forgot everything I knew. It is sad. Now I only worry about useless things. I worry if i get to work in time. I worry if i don't get fired. I worry how to make this or that useless stuff that my boss wants me to do. I cant go out whenever I wish so, because I have to sit on my back end the whole day and if I don't do that they will fire me. It is like being trapped. Like being in a jail. And I can't get out. It saddens me the most. And I am sad because I am a coward. I do not have the courage to do the thing I wish to do. And when I finally come home from work, I am too much tired to do things that I wish to do. I am tired of the stupid people following stupid rules. And I feel like I am just waiting. Like this all is just to fill the waiting. And the real work only begins. I wish that one day I could be useful. And I feel like now I am not.
I wish I could learn so I could serve as good as possible. But there is so little time and so much to learn.
My only hope is that something will change, and I will be free again ...

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If this is about being stuck in a job that sucks time and energy to an extent that not much is left to pursue a higher aim, then many here would be able to empathize.

The cheeze murda "solution" is no solution IMO. Rather it takes one further away from a potential practical solution where one would be able to develop along the lines that one wishes to - like "awareness" and "strength of being". So perhaps it would be more useful for tohuwabohu to use his energies to network about practical solutions to specific problems?

Yes, thank you obyvatel. I am sure there are many ways how to achieve our goal of servitude.
Nonetheless if there are present the external influences which are taken for granted and rigid then the only way is to try to heal oneself despite these influences and to conserve energy as much as possible.
I will definitely try to do it despite all obstacles in many forms. So if the exterior can not be managed then the only thing that is left is to work on oneself.

obyvatel said:

The cheeze murda "solution" is no solution IMO. Rather it takes one further away from a potential practical solution where one would be able to develop along the lines that one wishes to - like "awareness" and "strength of being".

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Well, if he is comfortable in the position where he is then I see no problem why he could not accumulate enough energy and utilize it to expand his awareness. There are plenty possibilities how to do it. And he has got plenty of time which is only playing in his favour. So obyvatel I do not understand why are you hacking at him constantly.
There are people that are not comfortable in their jobs and even they do have chance to succeed. And someone who is comfortable with his way of life has even more chance to succeed. So this discussion is not anymore about helping others but more or less about 'to have job vs. to not have job'.

tohuwabohu said:

Not now when you are part of the system and your view is distorted so obviously you have no problem with that.

I see that you like to dwell on theoretical stuff. You have studied some books and writings and that should make you experts. But even if you would study till the end of your life you would not understand what does it mean to be STO and to live in an STO environment in the way someone who saw a glimpse of it would.
It's the same as if a blind man would be giving me or someone else advices about what do colors look like.

I know what gurdieff promotes and yes i see it as a possible way but to be succesfull on that way you have to be first strong so you can fight off every petty tyrant and greedy creature. That is if you are alone. Do you think that you are strong enough?

You are all bashing cheezemurda49 because he has no job and in yourselves it evokes some kind of feeling like he is only taking and not giving. It also evokes in you some sort of superiority because look he is homeless. What escapes your attention is that having a job and serving others are two different things.

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This is what Ark wrote in the thread "opinions"

If someone asks you: what is the capital of France? Do you answer:

IMHO it is Paris ????

Instead of sharing "opinions" isn't it better to share data and conclusions drawn from these data?

Is it so difficult to get rid of all our opinions? Just throw them into the Recycle Bin and press the button "Empty Recycle Bin"?

Once we get rid of our opinions - what remains is "knowledge". We can then better see how inadequate it is.

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Tohuwabohu have you read Laura's books? I get the feeling that you have just read the C's transcripts (without the proper understanding of the context, which is highly discorauged for this exact reason) and have a pretty fixed idea of what being STO and STS means. Laura explains everything crystal clear in her books, with tons of references from other authors.

You talk about working on yourself in a very confident way. I must assume that in order to do that you have read Gurdjieff and Mouravieff books also, because they are the base of the Work, they explain the language that is used in this forum, the one you say you wanna be part of. One of the concepts Gurdjieff explains is the concept of external consideration. Cheezmurda49 asked, and many forum members gave him options that could be good for him given HIS circumstances in a very considerate way. Instead, you are using him to push YOUR ideas, in the basis of how the responses make YOU feel, that is why you say that people are "bashing him". The last part you wrote is nothing but prejudice towards forum members. Your opinion, after all.

Tohuwabohu have you read Laura's books?

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Yes, but not all of them. I prefer to read slowly so I can understand the meaning.

You talk about working on yourself in a very confident way. I must assume that in order to do that you have read Gurdjieff and Mouravieff books also, because they are the base of the Work, they explain the language that is used in this forum, the one you say you wanna be part of. One of the concepts Gurdjieff explains is the concept of external consideration. Cheezemurda49 asked, and many forum members gave him options that could be good for him given HIS circumstances in a very considerate way. Instead, you are using him to push YOUR ideas, in the basis of how the responses make YOU feel, that is why you say that people are "bashing him". The last part you wrote is nothing but prejudice towards forum members. Your opinion, after all.

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I would say that many forum members gave him these options:
1. get a job
2. give yourself a job

I was being considerate too and seeing that cheezemurda49 is comfortable with his way of life he might not change anything except to try hard and eliminate the distortions present.
Well the bashing was in regard to all responses that addressed his homelessnes.
My idea is simple. It does not matter whether someone is homeless, or is king of england or has some job as CEO. If one is willing to serve others and to work on oneself he can do it. The ones who have job can do it too but will have less time on their hands.

So the question is: Is it better to have more time at disposal but less money or the opposite?
Well for someone who has got a family to support the right answer might be to have a job. Because it is his/her way how to serve others, in this case his/her family. But if someone is all alone then exactly the opposite might be true.

tohuwabohu said:

I can remember how I realized all these things that you are now talking about. And then I was ready to serve this universe, to serve others but nobody came whom I truly could serve. I was really sad because there was no one who could grasp what I knew. And as you put it there were only people interested in slaves and slavery. Then I got low on money and with faith that this universe knows what is best for me I applied for a job and I got it.

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Is it possible for you speak more to this?

[quote author=tohuwabohu]

I would say that many forum members gave him these options:
1. get a job
2. give yourself a job

I was being considerate too and seeing that cheezemurda49 is comfortable with his way of life he might not change anything except to try hard and eliminate the distortions present.
Well the bashing was in regard to all responses that addressed his homelessnes.
My idea is simple. It does not matter whether someone is homeless, or is king of england or has some job as CEO. If one is willing to serve others and to work on oneself he can do it. The ones who have job can do it too but will have less time on their hands.

[/quote]

Hi tohuwabohu,

No one was bashing cheezemurda49 for being homeless. I am not so sure, as you say "cheezemurda49 is comfortable with his way of life". He wrote in his original post numerous times "homeless".

"Also, got a lot on my mind... Homelessness"

"I've been homeless for the past decade, it was basically, be homeless or die."

"The cold treatment, cold showers.. Well I'm homeless in Hawaii and stuck in the desert."

"also, I'm friggin homeless, have I mentioned haha.. Well it presents many opportunities..."

"Ummm.. Okay the C's say, those who want something for nothing will find themselves blocked... Now, again with this homeless thing. "

"But once again, I'm homeless so I eat at restaurants every day! Weird world I live in."

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To me he didn't sound like a happy camper.

Well, I remember being locked into a job doing my trade which made my soul rebel to the very core of what I thought was my existence. But then I smartened up after I realized being an employer is a heck of a lot more difficult than it seems when one is simply an employee.

My suggestion was to find a skill set that was marketable and suffer through the apprentice stage, like all apprentices since the dawn of time have, until you emerge, battered and victorious as a journeyman in your CHOSEN field. Once you have done your time and forged your skill; maintaining your dignity while resisting the heat generated from the bellows of people who use you as a tool, you may come to appreciate that the people you once thought were trying to enslave you were actually teaching you some valuable lessons about REALITY. While I recall the ways of my mentors which made me feel oppressed and still acknowledge that there was some serious STS pathology involved, there was also STO actions which I didn't acknowledge as such until I moved on and was in a position to have to sink or swim based upon my own abilities and knowledge. As a matter of fact, it occurs to me that since most tradesman run their own small business, a trade or apprenticing under one of those small businesses is precisely what a person ought to do if one feels the desire to avoid a corporatized employment existence.

That is of course, if and only if you're not too good to get your hands dirty. That blew my mind, by the way. No one starts at the top, you have to earn it, and most mentors will try and see how much you can take before you grow a set and stand up for yourself, and are happy to take advantage of a weak mind who doesn't know how to say no.

Trades are in demand, many senior tradesman are boomers about to retire and the world needs more small business to keep the corporations that attempt to dominate the market (but don't in the world of skilled labour mind you). So stop whining, don't be afraid to get dirty and find a skill set you aspire to and get to it! It ain't so bad!

Furthermore, I was not criticizing cheeze's decision to be homeless, but it appeared to me that he desired to change his current situation. If that is not the case...well, I don't think I'm wrong here so I will forego the apology. As to the idea that all employment is slavery, I am 100% flabbergasted that any intelligent person would equate an optional 35-40 hour work week to the kind of deplorable conditions faced by actual slaves. In fact it is an outright insult. One can always walk away from a job that one doesn't like, a slave cannot. One can make poor financial decisions that result in being engaged in a cycle of revolving credit debt that is akin to financial slavery, but it is unlikely your person will be harmed with a whipcrack or an engagement with the gallows. Life is ugly, yes, and only in facing the beast head on can one appreciate the beauty, but life is beautiful, opportunities abound and if you're lucky enough to have free and uninhibited access to the internet in a place like Hawaii...even if you are homeless, then you're likely doing a great deal better than a great deal of people. Choosing to be homeless in a world where punctuality, reliability and a good attitude are about all that are needed, well that and maybe the ability to sacrifice 40 hours a week for enslavement, will earn you a paycheck. What you do with the rest of your time is up to you!

tohuwabohu said:

And when I finally come home from work, I am too much tired to do things that I wish to do. I am tired of the stupid people following stupid rules. And I feel like I am just waiting. Like this all is just to fill the waiting. And the real work only begins. I wish that one day I could be useful. And I feel like now I am not.
I wish I could learn so I could serve as good as possible. But there is so little time and so much to learn.
My only hope is that something will change, and I will be free again ...

Click to expand...

I would think that "being useful" begins and is really based on being able to be responsible no matter where we are which I would think even applies to a 9-5 job. Then from that level of beingness (such as, being able to maintain a steady job) a certain kind of 'inner stuff' is developed by working a routine job that we may not even like. Then I think one can begin to be useful to someone else in the true sense since we've mastered a discipline at it's most fundamental/practical level. At the same time one can apply the work principles within that framework.

That's where the Work truly begins IMO. It's "being able" to be consistent and responsible even if it's at a job we don't like. You can choose another job or do something else and yet still take this "being able" with you. The question is: can we work long hours at let's say a grueling 9-5 job if necessary and still be able to apply the proper attitudes to our coworkers and ourselves such as non identification, external consideration, non internal consideration, and so on (as very well described in the book In Search of the Miraculous) even when under extreme duress, fatigue and dealing on a daily basis with the General Law, petty tyrants/authoritative types, and possibly even work psychopaths at work? That to me is the challenge. The Work as I understand it begins at the level of the good obyvatel, that is, it's 'being able' to properly deal with life issues which includes the day to day work environment and still be able to apply the work principles (such as developing proper inner/outer attitudes) within that framework.

tohuwabohu said:

kalibex said:

tohuwabohu said:

And if you are wondering if the environment matters then this is a big YES. Do you think that you get strong by being nonstop attacked? Well you might learn a things or two but will you be stronger if you bleed to death? I doubt it. I know what gurdieff promotes and yes i see it as a possible way but to be succesfull on that way you have to be first strong so you can fight off every petty tyrant and greedy creature. That is if you are alone. Do you think that you are strong enough?

Click to expand...

tohuwabohu, it sounds to me as if you are opining that when a person immerses him/herself in the 'System', he/she will end up too stressed by their environment to grow effectively. Is that an accurate reading of what you posted above?

Click to expand...

That is accurate kalibex. The system is designed to keep us weak, to keep us low on energy.
If you could accumulate enough energy then you could expand your awareness by utilizing it. It is very simple. One can look also at it like this. If I have some STS job, I am selling my time and energy for money. But can I buy me more awareness or strength for that money? I cant. Sure I can buy me some food and pay for some place but that is about it. But this life should be about much more than only surviving.
So this is not such a good deal after all.

Click to expand...

I work in the "system" and Im not weak or low on energy.

I read Gurdjieff.

I read this fourm.

I practise EE and have a good diet.

I read the reccomended books.

I try to apply what I have learnt and when I do get attacked I recognise it and have strategies in place to manage that, it appears to me that you have to have good foundations in place and that helps enormously.

I seem to recall a quote from the C's which I read in one of Lauras books. They said that being STO meant being 'smart' ie......clever. Will try to find it.....not at home at present.

tohuwabohu said:

obyvatel said:

The cheeze murda "solution" is no solution IMO. Rather it takes one further away from a potential practical solution where one would be able to develop along the lines that one wishes to - like "awareness" and "strength of being".

Click to expand...

Well, if he is comfortable in the position where he is then I see no problem why he could not accumulate enough energy and utilize it to expand his awareness.

Click to expand...

Maybe it can be done, I don’t know, but you have to question what kind of an awareness it would be. Reading through some of the justifications listed in recent posts, the following question occurs: How can a person hope to become STO oriented, if all they do is consume the work/effort/energy of others?”

Even if a person is ‘free’ by not having a job, it is impossible to live without consuming the efforts/energy of others. You still have to eat, still have to wear clothes, still need medical attention every once in a while, still need electronic devices to use the internet! If we then fail to make any useful payment back to life isn’t that a purely STS path? – As above so below.

If you really wanted to follow an STO path after that fashion, wouldn’t you have to strip naked and go live in the wild eating nothing but that which you caught for yourself?

Gurdjieff often mentions that we have to pay for our arising, so even though it may appear semantic I think its more appropriate to look at the question in terms of ‘what can I do as work to pay (my due) to life’, not ‘what do I have to do for work in order to buy’.

The question of work seems to me more about the flow and exchange of energy, balance, about what we give to life. Which brings this to mind:

[quote author=Cassiopaeans, 09-28-02 ]
'Life is religion. Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the world will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the 'past.' People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the 'Future.'
[/quote]

The thought also occurs that if nobody had a job, then Laura and Ark’s work, this forum, SOTT, would most probably not exist.

kenlee said:

tohuwabohu said:

And when I finally come home from work, I am too much tired to do things that I wish to do. I am tired of the stupid people following stupid rules. And I feel like I am just waiting. Like this all is just to fill the waiting. And the real work only begins. I wish that one day I could be useful. And I feel like now I am not.
I wish I could learn so I could serve as good as possible. But there is so little time and so much to learn.
My only hope is that something will change, and I will be free again ...

Click to expand...

I would think that "being useful" begins and is really based on being able to be responsible no matter where we are which I would think even applies to a 9-5 job. Then from that level of beingness (such as, being able to maintain a steady job) a certain kind of 'inner stuff' is developed by working a routine job that we may not even like. Then I think one can begin to be useful to someone else in the true sense since we've mastered a discipline at it's most fundamental/practical level. At the same time one can apply the work principles within that framework.

That's where the Work truly begins IMO. It's "being able" to be consistent and responsible even if it's at a job we don't like. You can choose another job or do something else and yet still take this "being able" with you. The question is: can we work long hours at let's say a grueling 9-5 job if necessary and still be able to apply the proper attitudes to our coworkers and ourselves such as non identification, external consideration, non internal consideration, and so on (as very well described in the book In Search of the Miraculous) even when under extreme duress, fatigue and dealing on a daily basis with the General Law, petty tyrants/authoritative types, and possibly even work psychopaths at work? That to me is the challenge. The Work as I understand it begins at the level of the good obyvatel, that is, it's 'being able' to properly deal with life issues which includes the day to day work environment and still be able to apply the work principles (such as developing proper inner/outer attitudes) within that framework.

Click to expand...

I think this about sums it up, Kenlee. For the Work, I think the important thing is to start where you are. Where you really are. Yes, most of us are wage and debt slaves to the corporatocracy, so we start there. Who is better off in this sense, the slave who realizes he is a slave or the slave who is dreaming he is free? And the key thing in the 4th Way Work is to use the difficult circumstances we find ourselves in, which we also may have chosen at some level, to forge that kind of responsibility or inner stuff. So I think in this sense we are all where we are and that's the starting point. So one person may be homeless, that is a starting point, and another may be working for a corporation, that is a starting point. The Aim is where we want to go from that starting point. So if being a wage slave to a corporation furthers one's Aim, then it is a good thing. If being homeless and unemployed furthers one's conscious Aim, then that is good. And, like Kenlee said, adopting "volunteered slavery" offers many opportunities to develop discipline, without which no Aim would be possible.