Walking the Tightrope

B

BrandonD

The Force is Strong With This One
There are occasions where helping someone else and taking care of one's self may conflict.

This is often not a black-and-white matter, as our perception of reality is not always accurate. To pose extreme examples, some might think that stealing from someone is simply taking care of one's self, while others might think that aggressively proselytizing is helping someone else.

What are some methods that you apply when discerning when to help another person and when to take care of one's self, should these two impulses contradict one another?

STO has been described as balance. This is an area that I would like to learn more about. Thanks for any useful information.
 
I think these are good questions, as every situation is different and requires some amount of due consideration to the needs involved, the level of asking involved, and what your particular needs are that may or may not require attention at the time are. At the same time, and by the title of your post, BrandonD, I can't help but wonder if there aren't some recent struggles you may be dealing with that have prompted you to write about this?
 
I guess in any given situation I would ask myself, does this make life easier for me AND the other? I ask myself if the outcome of an act is externally considerate towards the other or does it just make ME feel better.
Please share if you are having conflicting thoughts about any current situations. It helps to network.
 
yes I agree with what is mentioned here, because this is a very tricky situation, one should not be concern with self at all, if one wants to follow an STO path.
but being here we all are STS, and for the matter we are inclined to expect something in return, also we need to analyze when we're asked with an honest purpose or just to get something from us.

my two cents :cool2:
 
Hello, As others have mentioned here, it is important to the context of each situation, as to a method, I can not help you, all you maybe tell, is that the constant input of knowledge, be active here in the forum, even just read the advice of others, get rid of programs, cleaning the machine, etc., help in this process, here could be something like "help with wisdom", but to get to that state a lot of work is needed, it is also important not to lose sight of the need first of all, to balance ourselves, ie everything is complicated when we think we are helping, when in reality, we're just projecting our problems in the other, one step at a time, follow working in knowing your machine, maybe it's time you find that balance you are looking for. :)
 
BrandonD said:
There are occasions where helping someone else and taking care of one's self may conflict.

This is often not a black-and-white matter, as our perception of reality is not always accurate. To pose extreme examples, some might think that stealing from someone is simply taking care of one's self, while others might think that aggressively proselytizing is helping someone else.

What are some methods that you apply when discerning when to help another person and when to take care of one's self, should these two impulses contradict one another?

STO has been described as balance. This is an area that I would like to learn more about. Thanks for any useful information.
Click to expand...

I think there are a couple of main ideas to consider here. Firstly, in discerning whether to help another person or not, there is the question of whether they are asking. This in itself is not always as easy to discern as one might think. Yes they asked / no they didn’t – simple! Well not so simple really, again it goes into shades of grey rather than being a black and white matter.

A person can ask in many ways, can ask directly, can ask with genuine intent, or it can also happen they ask with the intent to manipulate help which would otherwise not been given – a ‘request for help’ with a deliberate pity-hook attached is not asking. People can also ask for help without directly asking, for example here on the forum a member with a sincere attitude is more likely to be helped sometimes when they haven’t directly asked but are obviously in need of help. Their background of being here and sincerely working on themselves is in itself a way of asking for assistance. So, that’s the first question – are they really asking?

Then there’s always context to consider. As you said it not a black and white thing, but remembering the context of the question can help: There is ‘good’, there is ‘bad’ and then there are the specific circumstances that determine which is which. In other words, the outcome to the same question can be variable depending on the circumstances.

Xico said:
yes I agree with what is mentioned here, because this is a very tricky situation, one should not be concern with self at all, if one wants to follow an STO path.
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I don’t think that that is unconditionally true, it does help greatly to consider others above ourselves but it is easy to think of many instances where the correct course would be that of concern for yourself first and foremost. Even (and perhaps especially) for those aspiring to awaken and Work toward an STO path while living here in STS land. Again, there is ‘good’, there is ‘bad’ and then there are the specific circumstances that determine which is which.

Added: There’s a CassWiki page which relates to this discussion here: All to those who ask
 
Alada said:
I think there are a couple of main ideas to consider here. Firstly, in discerning whether to help another person or not, there is the question of whether they are asking. This in itself is not always as easy to discern as one might think. Yes they asked / no they didn’t – simple! Well not so simple really, again it goes into shades of grey rather than being a black and white matter.

A person can ask in many ways, can ask directly, can ask with genuine intent, or it can also happen they ask with the intent to manipulate help which would otherwise not been given – a ‘request for help’ with a deliberate pity-hook attached is not asking. People can also ask for help without directly asking, for example here on the forum a member with a sincere attitude is more likely to be helped sometimes when they haven’t directly asked but are obviously in need of help. Their background of being here and sincerely working on themselves is in itself a way of asking for assistance. So, that’s the first question – are they really asking?

Then there’s always context to consider. As you said it not a black and white thing, but remembering the context of the question can help: There is ‘good’, there is ‘bad’ and then there are the specific circumstances that determine which is which. In other words, the outcome to the same question can be variable depending on the circumstances.

Xico said:
yes I agree with what is mentioned here, because this is a very tricky situation, one should not be concern with self at all, if one wants to follow an STO path.
Click to expand...

I don’t think that that is unconditionally true, it does help greatly to consider others above ourselves but it is easy to think of many instances where the correct course would be that of concern for yourself first and foremost. Even (and perhaps especially) for those aspiring to awaken and Work toward an STO path while living here in STS land. Again, there is ‘good’, there is ‘bad’ and then there are the specific circumstances that determine which is which.

Added: There’s a CassWiki page which relates to this discussion here: All to those who ask
Click to expand...

Thanks everyone for the helpful responses, especially this one. I remember reading about this in the past and I think I really just needed a refresher. It has helped to set my mind on the right course.

Some people asked about my specific circumstances. I posed the question in an abstract way because I was trying to mirror the way the questions are posed to the C's: they don't like personal questions, but prefer them presented in a broader form where the answers can be useful for everyone and not just me. I thought that might be a good approach toward posting on the forum as well.

A little personal info: I grew up with a very submissive nature. This has led to repercussions in my life that I'm sure others can relate to: feelings of exploitation and anger, becoming withdrawn from others in order to protect one's self, confused sense of personal identity, etc. I've conquered much of this problem, but of course it has left a mark upon my life, one that I might always have to contend with.

Currently, I have close daily involvement with 2 people who have much more dominant personalities than myself. I care for them both but I often feel taken advantage of or drained, with all the accompanying negative feelings.

There was a book I really loved as a kid called Illusions, by Richard Bach. In this book, there was a vampire who told the author that he must let him drink his blood, but the author refuses. This made an impression upon me as a youngster, it was an exaggerated illustration of how (in my opinion) it is STO to respect ourself and what has been given to us for this passage, and not allow other people to misuse it.

What I want to do is learn how to respect and take care of myself while still keeping my heart open towards other people. That seems like one of the big lessons for me in this life.

Thanks everyone and thank you Alada for the CassWiki page, I will read that :)
 
I think that to help someone else one has to have the ability to help oneself.

Sometimes, we think we are helping, but many times it is not the case.

In the general sense, you give what you have in your plate, you cannot give more than what you have simply because you don't have it. Even if we want to, sometimes we just can't. with anything from money to emotional support to knowledge etc...

So to help someone or oneself, I think a important step is to stop and consider the situation, before reacting to it.
consider what is going on, what is being asked, what is being implied, what's being perceived.

One Example
Sometimes we cross the line and don't give people the room to learn for themselves, preventing their own capacity to grow or to help themselves. Like many parents for example, some parents over spoil their kids thinking that they are helping them just because they are crying for not getting a toy, or candy or whatever. Well just because they cry or get angry doesn't mean helping them is to make the tears go away, or giving them what they
"need" so they are happy.
They have to learn why they got a no for an answer. and that is a huge learning for a kid; as opposed to always comply with the demands, make them extremely aggressive, unsweet, unkind, abusive and even narcissistic as a result. The opposite of what we wanted to achieve.... and turn into the victims of the "vampires we created"...



So it is true, sometimes people's problems are beyond our hands, or beyond out knowledge or range of help.
Some other times it is a matter of them fixing their problems themselves which means, sometimes, saying NO is actually helping them.
==========


Every situation is different and subject to evaluation individually as was said, but remember your energy, your time and your life are yours.
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Felipe4 said:
So to help someone or oneself, I think a important step is to stop and consider the situation, before reacting to it.
consider what is going on, what is being asked, what is being implied, what's being perceived.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this, I do think it is relevant to my situation. I have the "people pleaser" problem where I want people to like me, and it often leads me to react in a way that I resent later. Like someone asking me to go somewhere with them, I don't want to say no so I go along, and then later I'm angry at them for wasting my entire day that I could've spent doing something else. It's not fair for me to blame someone else for my inability to assert myself.

I remember reading Romeo & Juliet once and thinking that every single problem in that play would've been solved if the people involved simply stopped and considered the situation before reacting.

Thanks again for the info.
 
BrandonD said:
Felipe4 said:
So to help someone or oneself, I think a important step is to stop and consider the situation, before reacting to it.
consider what is going on, what is being asked, what is being implied, what's being perceived.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this, I do think it is relevant to my situation. I have the "people pleaser" problem where I want people to like me, and it often leads me to react in a way that I resent later. Like someone asking me to go somewhere with them, I don't want to say no so I go along, and then later I'm angry at them for wasting my entire day that I could've spent doing something else. It's not fair for me to blame someone else for my inability to assert myself.

I remember reading Romeo & Juliet once and thinking that every single problem in that play would've been solved if the people involved simply stopped and considered the situation before reacting.

Thanks again for the info.
Click to expand...

Hi BrandonD, You have had a number of good responses here, along with the "people pleasing" condition that you yourself sees, which is not uncommon in many people. There are a number of books that touch on this aspect in various ways (see book threads), and of course SoTT carries articles concerning this too. Just a brief look on SoTT produced this article named 'People Pleasing: How Other People's Unspoken Expectations Control Us'.
 
Just to add, BrandonD, if not already read, the author of a book (you can download it) 'The Authoritarians', by Bob Altemeyer, speaks to pleasing in context with how a person aligns in many different aspects to parents, friends, politics, religion etcetera. It is really worth a read as a back-check to how you see yourself and others around you - how you react when authoritarians speak, and what makes them tick. Another article on SoTT can be read titled 'Authoritarians! New study shows that nice people are more likely to cause harm to others'.
 
voyageur said:
Just to add, BrandonD, if not already read, the author of a book (you can download it) 'The Authoritarians', by Bob Altemeyer, speaks to pleasing in context with how a person aligns in many different aspects to parents, friends, politics, religion etcetera. It is really worth a read as a back-check to how you see yourself and others around you - how you react when authoritarians speak, and what makes them tick. Another article on SoTT can be read titled 'Authoritarians! New study shows that nice people are more likely to cause harm to others'.
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Thank you, I have now started on the Authoritarians, I'm very familiar with both types of person (the authoritarian leader and follower) though I wouldn't say that the traits of my persona correspond to either of them.

Thank you also for the article, it had helpful information. However, the title "New study shows that nice people are more likely to cause harm to others" is misleading and a bit sensationalistic. It is somewhat playing into the modern "neo-Darwinist" mode of thought, that kindness is a sign of weakness and cruelty is a sign of strength.

I think that most people would agree that a world of nice people is preferable to a world of cruel people, so the contentious quality in that particular study is not kindness, but a weak will and obedience to authority (as also illustrated in the book that you referenced).

Kindness and a weak will are not synonymous, but in my experience they are generally conflated in our minds. It seems this is because many people are only nice because it is their chosen means of exerting power over others. I write this from the perspective of a person who is in the process of "evolution" from someone who is kind out of weakness into someone who is kind out of strength.

It isn't a pleasant ride, I'm sure it's rough for us all, perhaps I must accept that I will be "mean" for a while. I don't know if I have the strength to be mean to others, to hold fast inside myself against their thoughts of me as a bad person. But I will try if that is what I should do.
 
BrandonD said:
Thank you, I have now started on the Authoritarians, I'm very familiar with both types of person (the authoritarian leader and follower) though I wouldn't say that the traits of my persona correspond to either of them.

Thank you also for the article, it had helpful information. However, the title "New study shows that nice people are more likely to cause harm to others" is misleading and a bit sensationalistic. It is somewhat playing into the modern "neo-Darwinist" mode of thought, that kindness is a sign of weakness and cruelty is a sign of strength.

I think that most people would agree that a world of nice people is preferable to a world of cruel people, so the contentious quality in that particular study is not kindness, but a weak will and obedience to authority (as also illustrated in the book that you referenced).

Kindness and a weak will are not synonymous, but in my experience they are generally conflated in our minds. It seems this is because many people are only nice because it is their chosen means of exerting power over others. I write this from the perspective of a person who is in the process of "evolution" from someone who is kind out of weakness into someone who is kind out of strength.

It isn't a pleasant ride, I'm sure it's rough for us all, perhaps I must accept that I will be "mean" for a while. I don't know if I have the strength to be mean to others, to hold fast inside myself against their thoughts of me as a bad person. But I will try if that is what I should do.
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There is no doubt our world could use a big tilting towards genuine kindness as you say. There was a good quote once read concerning kindness and it's triplicate aspects; like those who are kind yet want something in return in the present, and then those who are kind yet caulk up in their minds that they are to be paid back in the future (these are big forces behind their acts), and then those who are kind and expect nothing. So who is who? It is interesting to see in life how this trinity works, the ulterior motives of nice/kind programs that have other faces that can be difficult to see, and as such, they can and do harm many. Take the uber-charismatic types who play with two of these faces (i.e. politicians with masks) who have a remarkable ability to be nice and feign kindness that attract those who follow to the worst of possible ends - and here we are today.
 
BrandonD said:
Felipe4 said:
So to help someone or oneself, I think a important step is to stop and consider the situation, before reacting to it.
consider what is going on, what is being asked, what is being implied, what's being perceived.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this, I do think it is relevant to my situation. I have the "people pleaser" problem where I want people to like me, and it often leads me to react in a way that I resent later. Like someone asking me to go somewhere with them, I don't want to say no so I go along, and then later I'm angry at them for wasting my entire day that I could've spent doing something else. It's not fair for me to blame someone else for my inability to assert myself.
Click to expand...

Worth remembering though that manipulative/predatory types can be very good at spotting this program in us and exploiting it. To them, we might as well be walking around with a “hey, feel free to exploit me!” t-shirt on, it’s that obvious. Yet can’t see it in ourselves – knowledge protects.
 
BrandonD said:
Some people asked about my specific circumstances. I posed the question in an abstract way because I was trying to mirror the way the questions are posed to the C's: they don't like personal questions, but prefer them presented in a broader form where the answers can be useful for everyone and not just me. I thought that might be a good approach toward posting on the forum as well.
Click to expand...

Hi BrandonD!

I think there is a difference between asking personal questions to the C's and posting personal questions in the forum.
When you ask the C's for some of your personal belongings it is useless for the others (at least at 99%, I guess) and the energy always changes, as we have seen.

On the other hand when you post personal questions in the forum you might give an opportunity to others to learn and understand from your situation.
And it might be helpful for you to describe your situation more in detail, something I learned, too. But in a way you have done that already.

Wishing you success on your way! :)
 
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