Hey everyone, thanks so much for the replies.
Keyhole said:
What you have said here is quite understandable. Although, consider the idea that what you are refering to as "I" is actually not a unified, consistent form... but rather that what you call "I" is really a conglomeration of different "I's", each with their own likes, dislikes, aims etc. Have you read Ouspensky's
In Search of the Miraculous?
If you observe, you will see that there are aspects of yourself, or "little i's", that do have conflicting aims and are basically working against one another. One part of you may like to strive toward being more self aware, whereas another part of you may want to indulge in behaviours and ways of thinking that are STS oriented, and this is a normal part of 3D existence. First of all, before you can actually make any solid changes toward becoming STO, a person has to SEE that they are essentially STS. So what you have described seems like it is a positive thing IMO.
It is generally an unpleasant, shocking and even scary experience to see the selfish aspects of ourselves from a more objective perspective for the first time. Maybe this is why you are feeling fearful of "wanting to be STS". Perhaps it was the first time that you have experienced the sensaton of two conflicting "i's"?
One thing to really contemplate here, and something which can be a verifiable fact through self-observation, is that there may be some "i's" that 'want to be STO' and others that simply don't care. This will always be the case until Man has become a consistent, unified, conscious
individual. A part of the process is to strengthen those 'i's' that are interested in the Work so that they can prevail and take control over the ones that are not.
Here is a quote from
this page on the CassWiki:
The Fourth Way teaches that man in his normal state is not a single being. Rather, man is a collection of inconsistent habits, programs, or stimulus-response patterns; these rule all kinds of inner and outer behavior, and whichever resulting 'self' is active at the moment calls itself 'I' and sees itself always as the one, same person.
A metaphor that describes this state compares man to a nation where every citizen gets to be king for 5 minutes, with absolute power to enter into any commitments and to generally do what he pleases. The concept of the little 'I' is related to the concept of 'program,' 'personality' and 'buffer.'
Hey Keyhole, I actually didn't think about it in regards to the I's. I have read ISOTM and am currently working through Debrowski's positive disintegration. I agree thats its positive to really see myself as STS, i think it's a little more real because whatever fantasy i had laid over my eyes about myself, has disappeared. A large portion of this STS behaviour or what i caught myself doing was projecting basically everything onto other's. So that i had no real accountability for friendships.
Buddy said:
Hi wand3rer. I tend to avoid using the STO/STS distinction because those distinctions seem to be too wide for local contexts. When I do orient my understanding with those terms, the question takes on more dimensions. Example: Metaphorically, strangely enough, I think of humans as demons, only some are turned. Or are trying to turn, with help. And as soon as we turn from our wicked ways, we have to be really cautious (strategic enclosure) about what kind of attention we attract from the other demons around us who might use all sorts of wicked wiles to bring us back into the fold.
However, we are what we are (STS) and will have to pass tests, so to speak, to earn the right to transform into what we want to be. That it may even be possible is what makes the effort to be better people worthwhile, I think.
So, in these metaphorical terms, part of me wants to be a demon. Part of me wants to be an angel. What I have to do is somehow learn to sympathize/empathize/understand my real nature first, because, unlike how a pretentious literary critic operates, unless you can sympathize with the author and understand what issues he/she is struggling with, you can't offer any criticism that's constructive. Similarly, without understanding my real nature, I won't be able to rise above it.
I don't worry too much about the part that wants to be STS. It's influence seems to be diminishing.
These are just my thoughts.
Hey Buddy, i like your metaphor of the demon/angel. I guess it comes back to self-compassion as well. This week I have been reading a lot more in regards to self compassion versus self esteem and it makes sense to be gentle in my understandings so as to not get stuck in this fear/ battle of I's. My approach should be compassion which should motivate me to continually push on? I also need to be compassionate, especially with how i feel of how i have projected so much onto other's. This will be my real test. Reading Dabrowski has helped with a positive attitude, especially when dealing with guilt and shame of projecting onto others.
riclapaz said:
I agree with previous comments, I think the important thing is to try to unify a being, you mention thatis scary being STS, I do not think it's healthy to work these ideas, if we are all STS in this reality, the only thing we can do is be candidates for STO, and the way I see it, is by working on yourself, you can help others, I think when incia the process of controlling the machine, that fear becomes second term, we certain limits to understand what is STS vs STO, the Cs mencionarion the period of 1000 years, to decide if they stay in STS, or is passed to STO , my recommendation is to keep doing the work, having faith in this process.
I perhaps do need to have more faith, Thanks Riclapaz, good advice. My aim is to unify my being and understanding this wont happen over night is something i need to work on and journal about. I guess at times i can be inpatient, instead of doing the work, because its a positive direction.
AutomatedMan said:
I have had similar thoughts recently, feeling as though i'm not making enough progress or doing anything. Aside from this fear of not doing enough, I fear that every instance I chose for myself may be an STS like behavior. I started reading Trapped in the Mirror and realized after only the first two chapters that I have all of the symptoms of a narcissist! It freaked me out to think, yes I have these traits but where do we begin by rectifying them? You're taking the right approach of working through those feelings and moving onward. I wish you the best of luck! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this may be one of the first few steps in the Work, realizing the predator's mind/individual I's etc manifesting within you through observation.
Hey AutomatedMan, thanks for your post. Its encouraging to hear others are in this same place. I have trapped in the mirror on its way in the mail so I'm looking forward to reading it. I think as you describe, freaking out is good way to classify how i felt in that moment upon realising. I guess if thats what the predators mind is, the actual ability to not see then yes, its a good place to be as i can now see it, and also see my projections onto others so much clearer and daily. Thanks for your kind words, good luck to you!!
Chu said:
I think you are correct. This is an instance (both what Wand3d3r and you described) of noticing our contradicting nature and how little we know about ourselves. The fact that you notice those things means that you can observe them, and then change them! So, I don't think anyone should necessarily fear those things. It is in realizing how mechanical we are, that we can take some steps. Some little "Is" are more caught than others into the "STS mode". However, being afraid of them would amount to giving them power, and the point is to be able to reign them as much as possible in the direction where we want to go.
In case it helps,
here's a nice thread where we talked about different ways of working with little Is. I think that it may give you some good ideas as to how to work your way through this problem. It's an experiment, so if you can, ACT in spite of your fears, like a Warrior, as Castaneda said. :)
Hey Chu, thanks for the advice and the thread which i will read!! Noticing this contradicting behaviour is what you said, exactly right. I didn't actually know myself. Perhaps that caused this fear, being 24, thinking i know myself then not. Reading in ISOTM is one thing, feeling and seeing it in the mirror, is something different. Perhaps thats why i kinda forgot to think of it in the context of I's and let it grip me a little to much. because it was real? Either way i agree that i give it power, to see it as a fleeting I, reduces that substantially. Many thanks for sharing!!
Approaching Infinity said:
I agree with the responses so far. It's an important step in self-knowledge. But like Keyhole said above, is it really "I" who wants to be STS? If the very thought is causing you anxiety, then I think not. You are experiencing the conflict between various "I's". One, or several, are selfish, and another does not want this, and wants something different. If you can elaborate on the differences between those within yourself, the picture might become clearer, and your goals and choices and plans will become clearer too. Which parts 'want STS'? What form does that take in your life? What specific examples? What do you see as a better alternative? What steps can you make, what changes can you make, in order to make that alternative more of a reality?
As for the fear, it may serve a purpose, but I wouldn't let it control you. It's kind of like entering a new and somewhat dangerous environment. Maybe a forest with poisonous snakes or other predators. It will be scary at first, especially if you encounter one of the animals. But the fear is there to serve a purpose, and developing a phobia isn't ideal. The fear is to protect you, either to run or to learn some skill to protect yourself. In this case, the fear can be a motivation to try things differently, to make ever-so-slightly different choices until you live your life in a new, healthier way. And all the information you have can serve as a reason, to be a part of a greater purpose for yourself and others. So, it might help to ask yourself: "What parts of 'myself', what habits and behaviors, am I read to leave behind? What strategies can I take to develop other parts of myself, the ones that I truly DO want?"
So while the fear you are experiencing can become unhealthy if left unchecked, it can also be useful, if it inspires you to make even a tiny change in your life. And that tiny change will lead to another, and another.
Hey approaching Infinity, I think you make some great points and ask some excellent questions.In regarding the questions, from what i have seen in myself recently. There are I's that don't want to change, that want to stay the same. Not read, not participate in this forum. Then there are eyes, that want to stop watching tv, start reading more, writing more, participating more. Doing something for the community. These are somewhat defined also, but i do need to observe these more and try to have an understanding of triggers. I will journal more with these question as i have been asking about my aim during EE for the last three weeks. If it can be better defined this way, i will give it a shot. I also resonated with your analogy of the forest. It is the first time i have seen myself, but i do need to keep on keeping on!! thanks again for the advice!
Alada said:
I agree with others comments that these fears and doubts are connected with catching a true glimpse of yourself. As we are, we never really notice ourselves, then one day it's as if you catch a brief glimpse in a mirror and think 'who the heck is that?', only to realise on second glance that it is you. It produces a shock.
For me, I found often the reaction was to shut down, all the contradictions between what I wished to be and what I find I actually am being too much to deal with. I think because we grow within this illusory narcissistic, perfectionst world, we are led to believe that we have to be perfect (and in our narcissism we already are!). So to catch a glimpse of a zillion things you never saw before and know you can't easily fix brings up fear and self doubt. What can I do?!
A balance to that is to realise that we are all in the same boat, all STS, all full to the brim with our programs and habits. That the way is little by little, baby steps, trying to work on one small thing at a time and so progress toward what we truly wish to be. To try and think it all through at once, or foolishly try to fix everything we come to see at once is a mistake I think, failure comes quickly and deeper doubts can set in. So no need for over anxiety about what you begin to see, as others have said its a beginning.
Hey Alada, thanks for taking the time. This really resonated with me, this want to shutdown, because I'm no longer perfect in my world. And yeah catching a glimpse scared me. But i think i need to be more compassionate with myself, take baby steps as you say and relax. and not be anxious about this because its a good step. Especially after reading Dabrowski, and this thread now, understanding the positive comes with the reaction from the negative. I need to stay the course and observe more.
Prometeo said:
No but I fear bigger STS that eat me
Haha thanks Prometeo, that made me laugh!!
And i wanted to thank everyone for their time, i feel a lot less alone and more steady in the positive nature of this glimpse of self. Identifying them as I's, makes me feel more empowered to keep on and especially for the next time i glimpse myself which I'm sure will happen. I going to continue to read but also journal about this to try work out some goals and aims.
kind regards!!
Matt
