Darwinism or Neo-Darwinism?

There was a book I read at the start of my paleo life (this year May) called The Biology of Belief by Bruce Lipton, and tl;dr we evolved by true altruism of organisms forming communities which evolved over time to create "us", rather collection of organisms working together to gather greater awareness of their world and that it's not survival of the fittest but rather Survival of the Most Loving.
What are you guys thoughts on this?

It was stated in the book that Darwin looked back on his early work and disagreed with it, going with a more Lamarckian viewpoint.
I need to read more.

CeLegacy said:

There was a book I read at the start of my paleo life (this year May) called The Biology of Belief by Bruce Lipton, and tl;dr we evolved by true altruism of organisms forming communities which evolved over time to create "us", rather collection of organisms working together to gather greater awareness of their world and that it's not survival of the fittest but rather Survival of the Most Loving.
What are you guys thoughts on this?

Click to expand...

At the level of primitive organisms, I don't think it matters one way or the other whether the organisms are altruistic. Some are, and some aren't. Life will carry on regardless.

However, there is some truth that altruism was an important part of the evolution that led to humanity. You can see such traits in mammal species. And the vagus nerve seems to have a lot to do with it. (See Steven Porges' work.)

So maybe a better way to put it would be that evolution leaves the door open for altruism. It's not guaranteed though.

there is also the issue of symbiosis vs parasitism

Interesting question - my current understanding (in line with Dabrowski's "Personality Shaping") is that as humans we have certain instinctive drives, most prominently self-preservation - but also "kin-preservation", for lack of a better term. The latter includes things such as sexual drive, a drive to have children and protect them, and even a sort of "community drive". This "altruistic drive" is obviously an evolutionary advantage and good thing for the species, since it promotes cooperation and altruism as opposed to raw self-preservation. So in this sense, it is a successful evolutionary strategy, but not the only one.

However, this "altruistic drive" is exactly that - a mechanical drive, and as such has nothing to do with "higher development" or higher values. These higher values - such as a search for truth, heartfelt concern for our fellow human beings and a willingness to act upon it, the idea to work on oneself in order to become a more virtues person etc. - are only reached through a "positive disintegration", as Dabrowski calls it, or "the Work" in Gurdjieff's words. We can only develop to something higher, evolutionary speaking, by developing our conscience through shocks and self-work. So, while the altruistic drive may potentially lead to a better society, it's still mechanical and can be manipulated and diverted, while the "higher values", once developed, are incorruptible and lead to people becoming virtuous and acting that way consistently. At least that's how I understand it.

Maat said:

there is also the issue of symbiosis vs parasitism

Click to expand...

I don't know if that is what you mean, but yes, parasitism seems to be quite a successful evolutionary strategy as well. So in this sense, as Approaching Infinity said, evolution doesn't seem to "dictate altruism". I remember an interesting little book I read years ago that discusses the relationship between ethical people and "parasitic" (immoral) people - after all, every parasite needs a healthy host! The book is called "Morality: An Introduction to Ethics" by Bernard Williams. (_http://www.amazon.com/Morality-An-Introduction-Ethics-Canto/dp/0521457297)

I want to point you towards John Taylor Gatto, an Irishman BTW, and because he has so much to enlighten people with in general, but especially when it come to institutionalized racism, for whom we can thank Charles Darwin a great deal.

Charles Darwin broke the human species down into 51 different categories, and the lowest of the low, the most primitive he assigned to the Irish. Most people aren't aware of that, but if by chance you're interested in the origins of institutionalized racism; it's assignment through public education, classification, ect, then I most highly recommend the work of John Taylor Gatto.

This may help to explain some of the institutionalized British Attitude towards the Irish, but it goes miles to explain our world and the reason it is as it is, for racism by classification, all supposedly done scientifically, was the pretext for wholesale waste disposal of the vast majority of society by the ruling powers.

The World Most Courageous Teacher is no idle boast.
https://www.johntaylorgatto.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQiW_l848t8

Gambeir.

His grandfather was ZIMMER. That's not an Irish name>

Tuatha de Danaan said:

His grandfather was ZIMMER. That's not an Irish name>

Click to expand...

John Taylor Gatto seems to be an American, born in Pennsylvania, not an Irishman. Gatto is an Italian surname.

Nevertheless someone could conceivably have a German surname like Zimmer and be Irish, as there was German settlement in Ireland in earlier centuries, e.g. around 1709: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Palatines

CeLegacy said:

There was a book I read at the start of my paleo life (this year May) called The Biology of Belief by Bruce Lipton, and tl;dr we evolved by true altruism of organisms forming communities which evolved over time to create "us", rather collection of organisms working together to gather greater awareness of their world and that it's not survival of the fittest but rather Survival of the Most Loving.
What are you guys thoughts on this?

Click to expand...

I don't know if you're looking for a basis for altruism in the behavior of human component organisms or are just trying to understand Lipton's reasoning, so I'll just respond with my thoughts.

I think the concept 'altruism' was formed by humans at a certain level of cognitive sophistication and intended to be applied to humans. I don't see any reason for describing the less complicated behavior of simpler organisms as altruistic. Just reading your own description of what Lipton is saying, it appears obvious that he is referring to cooperation between organisms toward an understandable goal of mutual survival. If he's making it more complicated than that, then I suppose his own purposes for the writing become a fair subject for discussion.

This is not to suggest that "Survival of the Most Loving" is meaningless, of course. Surely "most loving" would include cooperation between individual humans?

To me, the phrase: "it's not survival of the fittest but rather..." is oversimplified and maybe misleading as to what Darwin was really on about. I haven't read Lipton's book so I don't know if he really understood Darwin or if even Darwin understood what he, himself, was trying to say.

While reading Darwin, my personal thoughts tend to move in the direction of thinking that his fundamental discovery was really more related to a statistical law about how "distributions of elements" will evolve (change and survive) over time, but his understanding of this was mistakenly confined to a biological context and with only a partial understanding of systems theory in Ecology.

My thoughts, for what they're worth.

Tuatha de Danaan said:

Gambeir.

His grandfather was ZIMMER. That's not an Irish name>

Click to expand...

Who's name? Gatto or Darwin? Define please because I'm pretty sure John Taylor Gatto isn't someone to cross swords with on this matter.

Mal7 said:

Tuatha de Danaan said:

His grandfather was ZIMMER. That's not an Irish name>

Click to expand...

John Taylor Gatto seems to be an American, born in Pennsylvania, not an Irishman. Gatto is an Italian surname.

Nevertheless someone could conceivably have a German surname like Zimmer and be Irish, as there was German settlement in Ireland in earlier centuries, e.g. around 1709: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Palatines

Click to expand...

So what are you suggesting? That John Taylor Gatto is a liar? Why don't you take him up on that rather than me.
All you have to do is look at him. He's as Irish as the carrot is orange for pete's sake. I'm quite sure that if you asked
him where his ancestry with the Irish comes from he'd probably respond. I posted his website.

I can lead a horse to water but I can't make it drink. I do not know what the purpose of picking apart someone like John Taylor Gatto would be when he has so much to offer, but I take some exception to the notion. I'm not here to provide answers to questions like that.
I couldn't care less what ancestry a person comes from. I mentioned that Gotto claims an Irish descent because it's so significant in his work and what he has to give in the way of information. Certainly it was an important motivational drive behind the course he took in life and which lead him to where he is today.

The main idea I had in posting that was that if people would listen and read to what the man has to say, learn from his own experiences, which my own father also underwent in that same criminal system, then perhaps they would review what they are doing to their own kids, not to mention the world around those same kids who later become adults.

So ultimately this is about love and understanding the origins of institutions who's objectives are not understood.

Gambeir,
Please use the search function and you will find numerous references to John Taylor Gatto in this forum.

The original post on this thread was concerned with altruism and its relationship to evolution. I am not seeing the point of a chest-thumping promotion of Gatto (world's best teacher?) and a dissection of his ancestry in this thread. Am I missing something?

I was just about to post the same thing. There are 56 other threads on the forum where Gatto is mentioned. Any or all could be useful resources for concerns related to Gatto and would probably be a better place to post them.

obyvatel said:

Gambeir,
Please use the search function and you will find numerous references to John Taylor Gatto in this forum.

The original post on this thread was concerned with altruism and its relationship to evolution. I am not seeing the point of a chest-thumping promotion of Gatto (world's best teacher?) and a dissection of his ancestry in this thread. Am I missing something?

Click to expand...

OK, well this is then exceptional that you even know who he is. I was offended and I was offended by coming at me with this business of ancestry with an implied suggestion that the guy is a liar. If that is the case than it would be appreciated if instead of telling me to search 56 threads for that information that someone just say that he had been discussed over this issue of ancestry. OK? Then tell me to run a search.

Who's going to go checking the search box every time you mention someone's name? If someone doesn't like him than say so and say why. I don't think it's right to come at me with some ancestry business when my only intent was say that he's tracked down evidence which shows that a primary system in the structure of society is organized to classify peoples kids based on genetics and ranging from loser to servant.

The connection is that love of your fellow beings, and of life in general isn't part of the plan, and it's institutionalized. I would think that understanding this is a designed function of the public education system ties in with the discussion as a matter of species survival.

gambeir said:

obyvatel said:

Gambeir,
Please use the search function and you will find numerous references to John Taylor Gatto in this forum.

The original post on this thread was concerned with altruism and its relationship to evolution. I am not seeing the point of a chest-thumping promotion of Gatto (world's best teacher?) and a dissection of his ancestry in this thread. Am I missing something?

Click to expand...

OK, well this is then exceptional that you even know who he is. I was offended and I was offended by coming at me with this business of ancestry with an implied suggestion that the guy is a liar. If that is the case than it would be appreciated if instead of telling me to search 56 threads for that information that someone just say that he had been discussed over this issue of ancestry. OK? Then tell me to run a search.

Who's going to go checking the search box every time you mention someone's name? If someone doesn't like him than say so and say why. I don't think it's right to come at me with some ancestry business when my only intent was say that he's tracked down evidence which shows that a primary system in the structure of society is organized to classify peoples kids based on genetics and ranging from loser to servant.

The connection is that love of your fellow beings, and of life in general isn't part of the plan, and it's institutionalized. I would think that understanding this is a designed function of the public education system ties in with the discussion as a matter of species survival.

Click to expand...

Gambeir, the point here is to think more of CeLegacy and what the OP is wanting to know and evaluate our possible contribution with the OP in mind. In a connected universe, everything is related in some way to everything else and some threads do undergo an organic branching, but we have to give some thought to whether CeLegacy is satisfied with the discussion to this point and if we are simply indulging our own interests. The latter would be more externally considerate on a thread devoted to the topic that you are free to start and link to here.

It was hard for me to stay away from Gatto on this thread because I read his "The Underground History of American Education" and found it remorsefully depressing, but rather than go with the national conspiracy angle, I opted to see the societal leaders as simply advocates of the same sedated, non-thinking ways of life that the victims of their policy implementations became subject to. IOW, just as dumbed-down as the 'peasants,' just occupying higher positions in society.

Now, having said the above, should you choose to carry other concerns elsewhere, I'm sure those of us with an interest in your subject will follow and join you. Trust the process and let's get back to thinking of the OP, Ok?