Beelzebub's Tales:Second Pass.

I downloaded the kindle edition. I will start reading soon. The technique he recommends is one that I have used for many texts. My favorite is Vasistha's Yoga, and I am just about through the second reading, though I really combined the first and second reading that G recommends in my first reading, and the second and third in my second reading. I often only read a page per day, and usually read the previous day's reading before moving to the new materials. Sometimes the reading recalls previous passages and I go back and re-read them. Sometimes I just flip open the book to a random page and search for connection to what I might have recently read. It can has taken 4 years to read just over 600 pages.

Sometimes my eyes just get stuck on a single word or phrase, and the mind gets locked in on a very deep level, really mining the deep content and searching for the context of the writer, which makes this interesting:

The superior colliculus in the midbrain, another nodal point, controls the muscles that direct the eyeball, and controls which images are permitted to fall on the retina. This means that an emotional center of the brain literally controls what we see. from The Wave Chapter 69
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I suppose on some level, after really getting deeply into a text, a groove will develop in the mind of the reader, and the properly-entrained body-mind will naturally be directed to the power within the text.
 
Keep in mind that the Kindle edition is the edited version of Beelzebub's Tales which has been 'cleaned up' from the original 1950 english edition. Madam de Salzmann did this because she felt it was too difficult to understand as it was. I will keep my personal opinions on this to myself, but I wanted you to know so you are more able to contextualize and interpret the material for yourself.
 
I will also add, as an afterthought, that it may really behoove you to seek out a hardbound, paper copy. Everything these days is digital, on screens, so ephemeral and light. It's really something to hold the book in your hands, to feel it's weight, to see where you are in your progress. So much is lost in this digital age. It's not as convenient as a kindle (and takes up many more times the space in a bag or backpack) but this is really a special thing, not to be taken down to the 'horizontal' level.
 
Martfotai said:
With a little more digging (always digging, digging ...), the Russian word (долг, dolg) does indeed mean 'credit' or 'debt' (much like 'tax') but also means 'duty.'
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Yes dolg is dlh and means exactly debt. Like if you borrow something and then you are indebted.
 
Martfotai said:
I will also add, as an afterthought, that it may really behoove you to seek out a hardbound, paper copy. Everything these days is digital, on screens, so ephemeral and light. It's really something to hold the book in your hands, to feel it's weight, to see where you are in your progress. So much is lost in this digital age. It's not as convenient as a kindle (and takes up many more times the space in a bag or backpack) but this is really a special thing, not to be taken down to the 'horizontal' level.
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Good advice. Digital reading is convenience at the expense of something more tangible. I would never dream of having a kindle edition of Vasistha's Yoga. After years of holding it, the book has a very intimate quality, like it's a part of me. I will look for a paper edition and in the mean time start with what I have.

thanks.
 
Inquorate said:
I realy must get around to reading this bok, and yet again find myself forlorn at only ever learning to speak english.
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I think it was the combination of typos and not quite understanding the second part of the above sentence. Beelzebub's Tales is actually in English, except for the neologisms which Gurdjieff uses throughout the book; 'parktdolg' is one example. These are words which Gurdjieff created using English, Greek, Russian, Armenian, Latin, Hebrew, Turkish, Sanskrit and Farsi roots, though knowing the meaning of the roots is not entirely necessary to understanding how he is using it in context -- but delving deeper into the etymology can provide fruitful insights when one is ready. I wouldn't worry too much about it until 3 or 4 times through the book.
 
Martfotai said:
Overall, 'being-parktdolg-duty' does etymologically denote something close 'obligatorily paying one's being-debt.' While the 5 Being-obligolnian-strivings taken as a whole would be a good working approach to 'being-parktdolg-duty' ("conscious labor and intentional suffering" aside), I believe the 4th striving touches the spirit of the etymology more closely:

"The striving from the beginning of their existence to pay for their arising and their individuality as quickly possible, in order afterwards to be free to lighten as much as possible the Sorrow of our Common Father."
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This sounds a lot to me like "KARMA"
 
Kinyash said:
Martfotai said:
Overall, 'being-parktdolg-duty' does etymologically denote something close 'obligatorily paying one's being-debt.' While the 5 Being-obligolnian-strivings taken as a whole would be a good working approach to 'being-parktdolg-duty' ("conscious labor and intentional suffering" aside), I believe the 4th striving touches the spirit of the etymology more closely:

"The striving from the beginning of their existence to pay for their arising and their individuality as quickly possible, in order afterwards to be free to lighten as much as possible the Sorrow of our Common Father."
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This sounds a lot to me like "KARMA"
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Gurdjieff rarely if ever speaks of karma, but he did say that he teaches that "when it rains, the streets get wet." What is your personal experience of 'karma'?
 
Martfotai,
Its not really my "experience" of Karma. This was just an observation that "being-parktdlog-duty" could be interpreted as Karma.

The Wikipidia definition of Karma

Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म; IPA: [ˈkarmə] ( listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed;[1] it also refers to the principle of causality where intent and actions of an individual influence the future of that individual.[2] Good intent and good deed contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and bad deed contribute to bad karma and future suffering.[3][4] Karma is closely associated with the idea of rebirth in some schools of Asian religions.[5] In these schools, karma in the present affects one's future in the current life, as well as the nature and quality of future lives - or, one's saṃsāra.[6]


So the "striving from the beginning of existence to pay for their individuality as quickly as possible" would imply that there is a "price" to pay for the expression of individuality. This price is Karma
 
Kinyash said:
Martfotai,
Its not really my "experience" of Karma. This was just an observation that "being-parktdlog-duty" could be interpreted as Karma.

The Wikipidia definition of Karma

Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म; IPA: [ˈkarmə] ( listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed;[1] it also refers to the principle of causality where intent and actions of an individual influence the future of that individual.[2] Good intent and good deed contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and bad deed contribute to bad karma and future suffering.[3][4] Karma is closely associated with the idea of rebirth in some schools of Asian religions.[5] In these schools, karma in the present affects one's future in the current life, as well as the nature and quality of future lives - or, one's saṃsāra.[6]


So the "striving from the beginning of existence to pay for their individuality as quickly as possible" would imply that there is a "price" to pay for the expression of individuality. This price is Karma
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Interesting. From my understanding the "price of endlessness is suffering." Intentional suffering; i.e. the creation of a strong yes-no struggle within oneself that creates a third force, the substance which can 'coat' higher-being-bodies. Karma strikes me as the fundamental cosmic law through which that price would be paid.

If my understanding of 'karma' is vastly different than it's understood in this forum, will someone please inform me?
 
Martfotai said:
Interesting. From my understanding the "price of endlessness is suffering." Intentional suffering; i.e. the creation of a strong yes-no struggle within oneself that creates a third force, the substance which can 'coat' higher-being-bodies. Karma strikes me as the fundamental cosmic law through which that price would be paid.

If my understanding of 'karma' is vastly different than it's understood in this forum, will someone please inform me?
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In my limited understanding, a spirit will experience suffering which over time may become intentional suffering provided the right influences (and shocks) come into play and appropriate lessons learnt. Nonetheless from the moment the spirit is "born", karma necessarily comes into play.

With regards to the third force and coat for higher-being -bodies, I have to admit you have totally lost me. :P

Kinyash
 
Martfotai said:
If my understanding of 'karma' is vastly different than it's understood in this forum, will someone please inform me?
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Can't speak for the forum, but I see several references to "time" and the conclusion is forming more and more strongly that time has everything to do with karma. I see how it shows up in so many ways:
cause-and-effect
reincarnation
Martfotai said:
"price of endlessness is suffering."
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Kinyash said:
"striving from the beginning of existence to pay for their individuality as quickly as possible"
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Kinyash said:
a spirit will experience suffering which over time may become intentional suffering
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Kinyash said:
from the moment the spirit is "born"
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Kala is sanskrit for time, and it shares the root with Kali. Both also represent death. Here's an interesting Wikipedia article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%81la_%28time%29

Does karma have to do with time and death, so that by being engrossed in cause-and-effect, one is effectively dead? I think there are a lot of indications that such is the case. In the context of so-called enlightenment or liberation, the descriptions are of a timeless, not precisely endless, though infinite and also whole nature. Seeing time as a procession of events, a bunch of divided units, means one is not seeing the whole. In other words, beyond karma or time, there is only the experience of "now" without characterization, and the feeling is described as "I am That". Radical subjectivity. Context merged with and/or devoid of content. Nothing to do, because it's recognized that it's already done. Altogether odd, as that idea of being done carries with it the apprehension of impending death.
 
So, I'm reading Beelzebub's Tales. I so far find it useless in guiding one along a path of spiritual growth. I don't think I'll continue much past the 100 or so pages I've completed. It occurs to me that Gurdjieff might be playing a joke on the readers. I have read stories of how he would set up wild goose chases for students to test their level of discernment and critical thinking. My initial impression is that this book is just such a ruse, fantasy disguised as esotericism, and not the other way around. I think he even left clues that it is just such a ruse, and starting with the instructions to read it three times, so as to waste as much time as possible.

The first chapter is a rambling, narcissistic rant. I am giving Gurdjieff the benefit of the doubt that he is a teacher of wisdom, crazy wisdom perhaps, but wisdom. With that to his supposed credit, it seems obvious to me that first chapter is intended to impress the reader to read the whole thing, regardless of how much it might be nonsense. The repeated assertions that his writing style is unique and not to be compared to conventional writing, is the clue. How can one possible get anything from a book when the writing is totally obfuscated? The arrogance of his unique way of being, as guided by his grandmother, is another clue. Once impressed with his erudition, you now have to double-down on his imperative to not be like everyone else. What would everyone else do, at least, those he disparages? They would not read the book. With that hypnotic suggestion, he has all but convinced the reader to read the book, because nobody else will, because they can't understand it, because nobody can, and not because the readers are obtuse, because the writing is deliberately nonsensical. And, once convinced that only specially developed people will bother to read the book, only those brave enough to ignore the explicit warning not to read it, only they can understand it, and then they also must read it three times. And for what, to learn that humanity is trapped in all manner of habitual conditioning, physical, emotional and mental? That's spirituality 101, and it doesn't need 1000+ pages times 3 reads to understand.

OK, so that's my criticism. Maybe I've missed the point, but the first 10% of the book I find totally useless, except for the first chapter which I find the true value of the book, as it gives the fair warning for those who would take the good advice.

So, can anyone who has read it, even once, not necessarily three times, tell me one useful thing that was learned as a result of reading it?
 
ge0m0 said:
So, can anyone who has read it, even once, not necessarily three times, tell me one useful thing that was learned as a result of reading it?
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I don't get the impression you'd be open to what 'useful thing was learned' since you have obviously made up your mind after 1/10th of the whole. The Tales were written for a very specific type of person, and I don't think that person is you. And that's okay! But it would really be a waste of time to try and convey any understanding contained in the book -- to ask is missing the point entirely.

Instead of simply putting it aside, however, I suspect you will cover it in all your theories, obfuscating not the book but yourself from yourself :rolleyes:
 
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