Turkey shot down Russian bomber over Syria

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

RedFox said:
fwiw this may add to the above
http://russia-insider.com/en/curb-your-enthusiasm-russia-not-winning-syria/ri11485
Curb Your Enthusiasm, Russia Is Not Winning in Syria
A counterview to consider. With a Russian-Turkish crisis that Russia can't benefit from, and few territorial gains in Syria, this opponent of US global hegemony feels Russia's Syria intervention was a bad idea that will hurt Russia in the long term

Despite all you've heard about Russia's great airstrikes and “Putin going full beast”, the Russian position in Syria and the world is looking weaker by the day.

First off, the main supply line of the Russian force in Syria, and in fact the entire Syrian army, which is fighting almost exclusively with Russian munitions, hangs on the Bosporus and Dardanelles. The required volumes of jet fuel, ammo, etc., simply cannot be brought in by air.



I don't really feel to comment as there are so many things about this article that doesn't fit with reality, like him calling Assads people goons and dishing Assad.

There is this about the author, Jacob Dreizin:

Bio:

The author is a native Russian speaker and Washington, DC metro area resident with experience in the U.S. military, civil service, Congress, and the lobbying and contracting sectors. He holds an MBA and a Masters in International Relations and has lived for at least one year in six different countries.


He has contributed to the well-known American economics blog Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis.

He is an American patriot who wishes to see a Moscow-Washington rapprochement based on mutual respect and recognition of common interests, and an end to America's neo-Cold War hegemonic game of “containing” Russia with military bases and hostile states with the ultimate aim of bringing Russia into the U.S. sphere of influence by replacing its current government with “democracy”—i.e. a weak, pliant, Yeltsin-style oligarch regime.

The author lives in a fantasy world without a real grasp of what kind of people rule in Washington. They are psychopaths and will never ever recognize Russia as an equal and with equal respect. That is not part of the make-up of psychopaths. Cancer cells don't live in co-existance with normal healthy cells, they devour them until the patient dies.

It is however still interesting to see what others think even if they are on some other planet :P
 
Turkey accuses Russia of slander as Moscow has 39 businessmen arrested in wake of downed plane
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/12018941/Turkey-accuses-Russia-of-slander-as-Moscow-has-39-businessmen-arrested-in-wake-of-downed-plane.html

Vladimir Putin and Recep Tayyip Erdogan exchanged accusations of treachery and slander on Thursday, as the diplomatic fall out of Turkey shooting down a Russian warplane continued to mount.

[...] Dmitry Medvedev, the Russian prime minister, called the incident “an act of aggression by Turkey,” and ordered ministers to draw up a list of retaliatory economic sanctions within two days.

[...] The first signs of a crackdown on travel and business links with Turkey appeared on Thursday afternoon, when Russian immigration officers arrested several dozen Turkish businessmen for visa violations.

The 39 businessmen, who had been attending an agricultural industry conference in the southern Russian region of Krasnodar, were arrested on Thursday afternoon for entering the country without business visas.

“Turkish citizens require a visa to enter the Russian Federation to engage in business activities or for commercial reasons, and the citizens in this case entered Russia for commercial purposes,”
VartanTer-Saarkyan, the deputy head of the Krasnodar region migration service, told a local television station.

The group face a fine of 2,000 to 5,000 rubles (£20 to £50) each and deportation.

On Thursday night, Russia and France agreed to intensify the exchange of intelligence information and coordinate their strikes against Isil.

"They knew where our plane was going to be and when it would be there," he said, referring to an agreement under which Russia and the United States share information about planned missions over Syria.

"What did they do with that information? Share it with their allies? We are very concerned about this and we will hold consultations about it."


Note - below the article is a listed Profile and photo of Putin.

Full name: Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin

Nickname: The Grey Cardinal

Born: 7 October 1952, Leningrad (Saint Petersburg)

Role: President of Russia

Party: United Russia

Education: Law degree from Leningrad State University

Career:

•KGB operative 1975 to 1991, retiring with the rank of lieutenant colonel
•Adviser to Saint Petersburg administration 1991-96
•Deputy chief of Presidential Staff to Boris Yeltsin, 1997
•Acting President of Russia on Boris Yeltsin's resignation, 1999-2000
•President of Russia, 2000-2008
•Prime Minister of Russia, 2008-2012
•President of Russia, after constitutional changes allowed him to run again, 2012-present
 
Meet The Man Who Funds ISIS: Bilal Erdogan, The Son Of Turkey's President
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-25/meet-man-who-funds-isis-bilal-erdogan-son-turkeys-president

As Sputnik transcribes, according to a press release from Russia’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Lavrov pointed out that, "by shooting down a Russian plane on a counter-terrorist mission of the Russian Aerospace Force in Syria, and one that did not violate Turkey’s airspace, the Turkish government has in effect sided with ISIS."

It was in this context when Lavrov added that "Turkey’s actions appear premeditated, planned, and undertaken with a specific objective."

More importantly, Lavrov pointed to Turkey’s role in the propping up the terror network through the oil trade. Per the Russian statement:

"The Russian Minister reminded his counterpart about Turkey’s involvement in the ISIS’ illegal trade in oil, which is transported via the area where the Russian plane was shot down, and about the terrorist infrastructure, arms and munitions depots and control centers that are also located there."

Others reaffirmed Lavrov's stance, such as retired French General Dominique Trinquand, who said that "Turkey is either not fighting ISIL at all or very little, and does not interfere with different types of smuggling that takes place on its border, be it oil, phosphate, cotton or people," he said.

The reason we find this line of questioning fascinating is that just last week in the aftermath of the French terror attack but long before the Turkish downing of the Russian jet, we wrote about "The Most Important Question About ISIS That Nobody Is Asking" in which we asked who is the one "breaching every known law of funding terrorism when buying ISIS crude, almost certainly with the tacit approval by various "western alliance" governments, and why is it that these governments have allowed said middleman to continue funding ISIS for as long as it has?"

And while we patiently dig to find who the on and offshore "commodity trading" middleman are, who cart away ISIS oil to European and other international markets in exchange for hundreds of millions of dollars, one name keeps popping up as the primary culprit of regional demand for the Islamic State's "terrorist oil" - that of Turkish president Recep Erdogan's son: Bilal Erdogan.

His very brief bio:

Necmettin Bilal Erdogan, commonly known as Bilal Erdogan (born 23 April 1980) is the third child of Recep Tayyip Erdo?an, the current President of Turkey.

After graduating from Kartal Imam Hatip High School in 1999, Bilal Erdogan moved to the US for undergraduate education. He also earned a Masters Degree in John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University in 2004. After graduation, he served in the World Bank as intern for a while. He returned Turkey in 2006 and started to his business life. Bilal Erdogan is one of the three equal shareholders of "BMZ Group Denizcilik ", a marine transportation corporation.

In the next few days, we will present a full breakdown of Bilal's various business ventures, starting with his BMZ Group which is the name implicated most often in the smuggling of illegal Iraqi and Islamic State through to the western supply chain, but for now here is a brief, if very disturbing snapshot, of both father and son Erdogan by F. William Engdahl, one which should make everyone ask whether the son of Turkey's president (and thus, the father) is the silent mastermind who has been responsible for converting millions of barrels of Syrian Oil into hundreds of millions of dollars of Islamic State revenue.

By F. William Engdahl, posted originally in New Eastern Outlook:

Erdogan's Dirth Dangerous ISIS Games

In October 2014 US Vice President Joe Biden told a Harvard gathering that Erdogan’s regime was backing ISIS with “hundreds of millions of dollars and thousands of tons of weapons…” Biden later apologized clearly for tactical reasons to get Erdo?an’s permission to use Turkey’s Incirlik Air Base for airstrikes against ISIS in Syria, but the dimensions of Erdogan’s backing for ISIS since revealed is far, far more than Biden hinted.

ISIS militants were trained by US, Israeli and now it emerges, by Turkish special forces at secret bases in Konya Province inside the Turkish border to Syria, over the past three years.
Erdo?an’s involvement in ISIS goes much deeper. At a time when Washington, Saudi Arabia and even Qatar appear to have cut off their support for ISIS, they remaining amazingly durable. The reason appears to be the scale of the backing from Erdo?an and his fellow neo-Ottoman Sunni Islam Prime Minister, Ahmet Davuto?lu.

Nice Family Business

The prime source of money feeding ISIS these days is sale of Iraqi oil from the Mosul region oilfields where they maintain a stronghold. The son of Erdogan it seems is the man who makes the export sales of ISIS-controlled oil possible.

Bilal Erdo?an owns several maritime companies. He has allegedly signed contracts with European operating companies to carry Iraqi stolen oil to different Asian countries. The Turkish government buys Iraqi plundered oil which is being produced from the Iraqi seized oil wells. Bilal Erdogan’s maritime companies own special wharfs in Beirut and Ceyhan ports that are transporting ISIS’ smuggled crude oil in Japan-bound oil tankers.

Gürsel Tekin vice-president of the Turkish Republican Peoples’ Party, CHP, declared in a recent Turkish media interview, “President Erdogan claims that according to international transportation conventions there is no legal infraction concerning Bilal’s illicit activities and his son is doing an ordinary business with the registered Japanese companies, but in fact Bilal Erdo?an is up to his neck in complicity with terrorism, but as long as his father holds office he will be immune from any judicial prosecution.” Tekin adds that Bilal’s maritime company doing the oil trades for ISIS, BMZ Ltd, is “a family business and president Erdogan’s close relatives hold shares in BMZ and they misused public funds and took illicit loans from Turkish banks.”

In addition to son Bilal’s illegal and lucrative oil trading for ISIS, Sümeyye Erdogan, the daughter of the Turkish President apparently runs a secret hospital camp inside Turkey just over the Syrian border where Turkish army trucks daily being in scores of wounded ISIS Jihadists to be patched up and sent back to wage the bloody Jihad in Syria, according to the testimony of a nurse who was recruited to work there until it was discovered she was a member of the Alawite branch of Islam, the same as Syrian President Bashar al-Assad who Erdogan seems hell-bent on toppling.

Turkish citizen Ramazan Bagol, captured this month by Kurdish People’s Defence Units,YPG, as he attempted to join ISIS from Konya province, told his captors that said he was sent to ISIS by the ‘Ismailia Sect,’ a strict Turkish Islam sect reported to be tied to Recep Erdogan. Baol said the sect recruits members and provides logistic support to the radical Islamist organization. He added that the Sect gives jihad training in neighborhoods of Konya and sends those trained here to join ISIS gangs in Syria.
 
Raqqa's Rockefellers: How Islamic State oil flows to Israel
http://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/features/2015/11/26/raqqas-rockefellers-how-islamic-state-oil-flows-to-israel/

IS sells Iraqi and Syrian oil for a very low price to Kurdish and Turkish smuggling networks and mafias, who label it and sell it on as barrels from the Kurdistan Regional Government. It is then most frequently transported from Turkey to Israel via knowing or unknowing middlemen, according to al-Araby's investigation.

IS oil extraction capacity developed further in 2015 when it obtained hydraulic machines and electric pumps after taking control of the Allas and Ajeel oil fields near the Iraqi city of Tikrit. The group also seized the equipment of a small Asian oil company that was developing an oil field close to the Iraqi city of Mosul before IS overran the area last June.

IS oil production in Syria is focused on the Conoco and al-Taim oil fields, west and northwest of Deir Ezzor, while in Iraq the group uses al-Najma and al-Qayara fields near Mosul. A number of smaller fields in both Iraq and Syria are used by the group for local energy needs.

IS is producing an average of 30,000 barrels a day from the Iraqi and Syrian oil fields it controls.

"The person in charge of the oil shipment sells the oil to the highest bidder," the colonel added. Competition between organised gangs has reached fever pitch, and the assassination of mafia leaders has become commonplace. The highest bidder pays between 10 and 25 percent of the oil's value in cash - US dollars - and the remainder is paid later, according to the colonel.

The drivers hand over their vehicles to other drivers who carry permits and papers to cross the border into Turkey with the shipment, the Iraqi intelligence officer said. The original drivers are given empty lorries to drive back to IS-controlled areas.

Before crossing any borders, the mafias transfer the crude oil to privately owned rudimentary refineries, where the oil is heated and again loaded onto lorries to transfer them across the Ibrahim Khalil border crossing into Turkey. The rudimentary refining, according to the colonel, is performed because Turkish authorities do not allow crude oil to cross the border if it is not licensed by the Iraqi government.

The initial refining stage is conducted to obtain documents that would pass the oil off as oil by-products, which are allowed through the border. According to the intelligence officer, border officials receive large bribes from local Iraqi smuggling gangs and privately owned refineries. Once in Turkey, the lorries continue to the town of Silopi, where the oil is delivered to a person who goes by the aliases of Dr Farid, Hajji Farid and Uncle Farid.

Once inside Turkey, IS oil is indistinguishable from oil sold by the Kurdistan Regional Government, as both are sold as "illegal", "source unknown" or "unlicensed" oil. The companies that buy the KRG oil also buy IS-smuggled oil, according to the colonel.

The route to Israel

After paying drivers, middlemen and bribes, IS' profit is $15 to $18 a barrel. The group currently makes $19 million on average each month, according to the intelligence officer. Uncle Farid owns a licensed import-export business that he uses to broker deals between the smuggling mafias that buy IS oil and the three oil companies that export the oil to Israel. Al-Araby has the names of these companies and details of their illegal trades. One of these companies is also supported by a very high-profile Western official.

The companies compete to buy the smuggled oil and then transfer it to Israel through the Turkish ports of Mersin, Dortyol and Ceyhan, according to the colonel.

According to a European official at an international oil company who met with al-Araby in a Gulf capital, Israel refines the oil only "once or twice" because it does not have advanced refineries. It exports the oil to Mediterranean countries - where the oil "gains a semi-legitimate status" for $30 to $35 a barrel.

"Israel has in one way or another become the main marketer of IS oil. Without them, most IS-produced oil would have remained going between Iraq, Syria and Turkey. Even the three companies would not receive the oil if they did not have a buyer in Israel," said the industry official.

Delivery and paymentAl-Araby has discovered that IS uses a variety of ways to receive payments for its smuggled oil - in a manner similar to other international criminal networks. First, IS receives a cash payment worth 10 to 25 percent of the oil's value upon sale to the criminal gangs operating around the Turkish border.

Second, payments from oil trading companies are deposited in a private Turkish bank account belonging to an anonymous Iraqi person, through someone such as Uncle Farid, and then transferred to Mosul and Raqqa, laundered through a number of currency exchange companies.

Third, oil payments are used to buy cars that are exported to Iraq, where they are sold by IS operatives in Baghdad and southern cities, and the funds transferred internally to the IS treasury.
 
http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151127/1030863563/turkish-jets-ambush-russian-su-24.html#ixzz3sivhVL9K

Turkish Jets Ambushed Russian Su-24 - Russian Air Force Command

Turkish warplanes made an ambush for the Russian Su-24M bombers, otherwise they would not have had enough time to take off from an airbase and reach the area, Col. Gen. Viktor Bondarev said Friday.

Turkey had been tracking the Russian Su-24 for 34 minutes before shooting it down, Bondarev said. Turkish fighter jets were warned about Russian warplanes beforehand and waited in ambush prior to the attack.

​"The radar surveillance data confirms that two F-16 fighter jets were patrolling the flight zone for an hour an 45 minutes at an altitude of 2,400 meters [some 7,800 feet], which speaks of a deliberate action and their readiness to attack from an ambush over the Turkish territory," Bondarev told reporters in Moscow.

According to Bondarev, the Russian pilots have not received any warnings from the Turkish pilots on the designated radio frequency.

​​The Turkish plane spent 40 seconds in the Syrian airspace, entering it for two kilometers, the commander said.

"According to radar tracking data, it was the Turkish warplane that crossed into the Syrian airspace for about 40 seconds to a depth of 2 kilometers [6,560 feet], while the Russian fighter-bomber never violated the Turkish border", he said.

​According to the Syrian Air Defense data, "an object moving at a speed of 810 kmph from Turkey was registered".

The Su-24 was downed at a distance of 5,5 kilometers to the south of the Turkish border immediately after it had attacked terrorists.

"At 10.24 Moscow time the crew carried out bombing and after it the plane was shot down by an air-to-air missile launched by a Turkish Air Force F-16 that had taken off from the 8th Diyarbakir airbase on the Turkish territory."

Bondarev added that a Turkish F-16 fighter jet was guided to its intended target from the ground and launched an air-to-air missile while the Russian warplane was readying to carry out a second attack on terrorist positions.

"The method of guidance of F-16 aircraft into effective engagement zone directly, but not along the pursuit course curve shows that the fighter jet was directed from a ground control station," Bondarev told reporters.

The fighter jet stopped maneuvers in the area of patrolling and commenced missile launching a minute and 40 seconds before the Su-24 maximum proximity to the Syrian-Turkish border, Bondarev added.

"After approaching the Su-24M at a distance of launching a missile (5-7 kilometers), which proves that the F-16 was in the Syrian airspace, the fighter jet made a sharp descending manoeuvre to the right and disappeared from the radars."

The launch of a missile was confirmed by the crew of the second Russian Su-24.

"[The crew] observed a plume of a white smoke and reported it."

Turkey downed the Russian plane on November 24 over Syria. One of the pilots was killed by fire from the ground, the second one was rescued.

The rescue operation to save the second pilot was conducted professionally, the commander said. The survivor was being hunted down by "well-equipped groups" of militants. After the pilot had been evacuated, Russian "bombers delivered massive, crushing airstrikes" on the area, the commander elaborated.

​The attack on the plane was filmed by radicals who knew where and when they could "get that exclusive footage", Bondarev added. The readiness of Turkish media to cover the accident was surprising, as the video of the missile striking the Su-24 was uploaded to YouTube by a private Turkish TV-channel just 1,5 hours after the accident.
 
Erdogan is a real sicko. He threatened his own people with terror if his party would not get the majority to change the constitution to bring the presidency system like in US. Turkey's current system is parliamentary democracy, similar to Germany as an example. And Erdogan is in a similar position like Joachim Gauck, which means his authority and responsibilities are pretty much limited and symbolic (according to Turkish constitution), and it has always been like this until him. But since the juridical system + 95% of media are taken over and manipulated by him and since 45-50% of the Turkish population (which is the low educated, poor and religious part most of which living on welfare from government) is madly manipulated and fanatically support him, he trespass the constitution practically and acts like a president with full authority. But he wants it to be legal in other words he wants to change the constitution to fullfill his obsessive presidency ambition.

Anyway his exact words during a rally before June elections were : "Give me 400 chairs in parliament (which is a little more than than needed number to change the constitution) and let this issue resolve in peace."

Then his governing party lost parliamentary majority in June elections. After that, more than 700 people died in several terror attacks in Turkey.

Using the fear in public (Problem-Reaction-Solution) in November elections he got the parliamentary majority back. His governing party does not have the sufficient number to change the constitution but with a few support from other members of parliament he is planning to solve it with a referendum. That's why he will escalate the problem with Russia publicly further to arouse nationalistic feelings among public and gain further support to guarantee the referendum in other words his damn presidency.

I am sure Putin is well aware about this little agenda but as i see some Russian embassies and official offices publishing pictures and tweets humiliating general Turkish public which i find strategically not right and may serving Erdogan's agenda by creating nationalistic reaction among some portion of anti-Erdogan front most of which doesn't approve downing of the Russian jet.

Assad for example always distinguished Erdogan (and his party) from general Turkish public in his statements, which is nice but also wise because most of the population did not approve a war with Syria that might be one of the reasons that mad Erdogan could not attempted to force the army directly enter Syria.
 
NATO Review (where the experts (of destruction) come to talk)
NATO/OTAN 2012Turkey: interview with Defense Minister Yilmaz :pinocchio:
_http://www.nato.int/docu/review/2012/Turkey-Greece/Turkey-Defence-Yilmaz/EN/index.htm

NATO's role in conflict between Turkey and Russia CNN (94 likes-259 dislikes) Some people are seeing reality about western news at what it does best :pinocchio:
Published on Nov 25, 2015
Former U.S. Ambassador to NATO Ivo Daalder speaks with CNN's Hala Gorani about the role NATO can play to end the conflict between Turkey and Russia.
_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cjE487p31U

The Voice of sanity

‘US, NATO testing Russia's patience’
PressTV News Videos
Published on Nov 26, 2015
Turkey’s move in targeting a Russian aircraft over Syria was a “dangerous” and “provocative” event that might lead to a war between the US, NATO and Russia, says an American analyst.

https://youtu.be/SQIwjarqx_I
 
Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Aeneas said:
RedFox said:
fwiw this may add to the above
http://russia-insider.com/en/curb-your-enthusiasm-russia-not-winning-syria/ri11485
Curb Your Enthusiasm, Russia Is Not Winning in Syria
A counterview to consider. With a Russian-Turkish crisis that Russia can't benefit from, and few territorial gains in Syria, this opponent of US global hegemony feels Russia's Syria intervention was a bad idea that will hurt Russia in the long term

Despite all you've heard about Russia's great airstrikes and “Putin going full beast”, the Russian position in Syria and the world is looking weaker by the day.

First off, the main supply line of the Russian force in Syria, and in fact the entire Syrian army, which is fighting almost exclusively with Russian munitions, hangs on the Bosporus and Dardanelles. The required volumes of jet fuel, ammo, etc., simply cannot be brought in by air.



I don't really feel to comment as there are so many things about this article that doesn't fit with reality, like him calling Assads people goons and dishing Assad.

(...)

The author lives in a fantasy world without a real grasp of what kind of people rule in Washington. They are psychopaths and will never ever recognize Russia as an equal and with equal respect. That is not part of the make-up of psychopaths. Cancer cells don't live in co-existance with normal healthy cells, they devour them until the patient dies.

It is however still interesting to see what others think even if they are on some other planet :P


This commenter did a good job of addressing the numerous and quite ridiculous claims in the article:

This is one of the most amusingly bizarre articles I've yet seen at RI. It's a candidate for the humour section.

Claim #1
=== the main supply line of the Russian force in Syria, and in fact the entire Syrian army, which is fighting almost exclusively with Russian munitions, hangs on the Bosporus and Dardanelles. ===

Answer #1
Wrong. The long way past Gibraltar exists, even if it is much less convenient. Another potential landroute via Iran and Iraq exists which can potentially be used.

Hysteria #2
=== In a state of war or near-war with Turkey, or say a Russian cut-off of gas supplies to that nation as retaliation for the SU-24 downing, Ankara would have not only perhaps the legal right but certainly U.S. approval to shut down this lifeline. ===

Answer #2
Russia isn't cutting off Turkish gas, nor is it going to war with Turkey. Don't be silly.

Fantasy #3
=== Assad would then probably collapse within weeks and the Russian force ===

Answer #3
As others pointed out, Assad lasted for years without Russian help and wasn't about to collapse, even if the trend has been negative for his forces.

Strawman argument #4
=== Russia can do nothing militarily against Turkey ===

Answer #4
Russia isn't at war with Turkey, nor planning to go to war with Turkey, nor does it "need to do something militarily against Turkey".

Claim #5
=== destruction of the tourist plane over Sinai has led Moscow to ban direct flights to Egypt, potentially throwing a big wrench into Russian-Egyptian relations ===

Answer #5
Russian and Egyptian relations are doing just great.

Strawman #6
=== This is a terrible swamp Russia is sinking into. ===

Answer #6
Lots of hyperbole leading to the 'terrible swamp' statement. Touted 'solutions', which represents the views of civilian commentators aren't the actions of the Russian State so the writer is inventing quagmires which don't exist.

Claim #7
=== Only someone who has spent too long playing too many computer games could have thought that the Iranians and just 6000 Hezbollah and what pathetic ragtag bits remain of the Syrian army were ever going to chase the rebels or Nusra or ISIS out of Syria. ===

Answer #7
The numbers quoted by the writer are questionable. Besides, 'rebels' cannot sustain themselves without supplies. The writer himself made the point that the Syrian Govt are dependent upon Russian weapons shipments. It works both ways. When border access is limited and supply dumps and columns are thinned out, as has been happening, 'rebels' hurt too.

Claim #8
=== But for Assad to recover that territory? Forget it! No one in the region will allow it, even if Assad had the manpower for it, which he does not at this point. ===

Answer #8
Speculative, questionable conclusion.

Claim #9
=== This permanent catastrophe would have sapped any remaining will on Uncle Sam's part to intervene in the region. ===

Answer #9
The writer ascends into the stratosphere of the absurd with this gem of a claim. No further explanation necessary.

Statement #10
=== In fact, after colossal, nation-destroying failures in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and of course Ukraine—which saw Washington's chaos devouring our world like “The Nothing” from The Neverending Story—it could have been the very last straw, the end of U.S. Global Dominion. But now, all the Empire needs to do is sit back and watch Russia screw up and exhaust itself. ===

Answer #10
The writer fails to comprehend that the nation-destroying tactics of the US is entirely intentional and logical, in order to accomplish the goals it is pursuing. It is sometimes described as the 'arc of chaos'. The writer appears to be unaware of this.

Statement #11
=== For Russia, the only benefit I see is its air force gaining experience waging a US-style extended bombing campaign as well as impressing countries such as India ===

Answer #11
The writer doesn't see much, which explains why his article reads like a rejected Tom Clancy novel.

The benefits for Russia are obvious. ISIS and Al-Qaeda won't be staying put in Syria if left to their own devices. They'll move on to Iran, to Central Asia and to Russia itself. This isn't a war of idle convenience or amusement for Russia, because there are legitimate security implications for it if it does not act now. Stop the terrorists in Syria before they come to Central Asia and Russia.

Statement #12
=== Only the delusional think the Russian air force will kill them all, or even enough to make a difference. ===

Answer #12
Nobody claims the Ru AF will kill them all, and the numbers being killed are already making a noticeable difference.

Statement #13
=== Just as with the 9/11 attackers and their ilk, the only real solution is stopping them at the border or at the airport immigration control booth. ===

Answer #13
Stopping their sponsors and obliterating their safe havens is much more effective.

Claim #14
=== The “we have to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here” approach is pure fantasy imported from America. ===

Answer #14
The writer gets himself tangled up in a laughable ball of confusion here because while that original claim was indeed a US fantasy, it is very real for the situation in Russia and Central Asia, where many of the terrorist recruits originate from.

Statement #15
=== It pains me to see wise Russia parroting failed Bush-era mantras straight out of Fox News. ===

Answer #15
That's an example of projection

Statement #16
=== Russia should have stayed home. Now it is in a hopeless situation that is rolling downhill at dizzying speed. ===

Answer #16
Russia cannot afford to stay home because what is happening in Syria will affect Russia's internal security as well as Russia's geopolitical interests.
The situation is not hopeless, by any means. The writer's conclusions are hysterical, premature and inaccurate.

Thanks for the laughs, all the same :D
 
Syria's border with Turkey allows IS fighters to enter and leave Syria, and oil to leave Syria, and also supplies for IS to enter Syria.

Most of the border is controlled by the Syrian Kurds though, which just leaves a couple of short stretches in the control of the Syrian rebels, IS or Al-Nusra, I would estimate from the map below perhaps 250km of the 900 km Syria/Turkey border are in control of the latter groups. So the area where the Russian fighter was shot down is significant not just because it is close to the Syrian-Turkish border, but is something of a strategic hot-spot as an area not under Kurdish control. The map below is from Wikipedia and is titled "Military situation in the Syrian Civil War as of 25 November 2015". (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Protection_Units)

This is a short July 2015 video from Al-Jazeera about the Syria-Turkey border:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPUShgXG7pk
 

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There's something fundamentally 'wrong' about the way Turkey has gone and thrown themselves under the Russian bus. :( I've been thinking about what 'mechanisms' and the logistics would be needed to achieve this, but a lot of that would necessarily have to be hidden by those responsible. I think there may be missing pieces of a puzzle here. Probably most likely linked with Israel. They're good as such type of things.

I was wondering why this happened (apart from the fact Erdogan seems to be acting like a world class idiot) and then I remembered how my family react to 'news', i.e. how they get their minds manipulated, via their emotions.

'The Public' needs a 'Bad Guy'..... in order to support any type of military action. Turkey may be in the process of being set up as said 'bad guy'. Allowing the US to dodge that bullet in the minds of 'The Public'. Perception, on the part of the 'Western Public', seems to be very important to these guys. They would cheerfully sacrifice their own in order to control it.
 
Ruth said:
There's something fundamentally 'wrong' about the way Turkey has gone and thrown themselves under the Russian bus. :( I've been thinking about what 'mechanisms' and the logistics would be needed to achieve this, but a lot of that would necessarily have to be hidden by those responsible. I think there may be missing pieces of a puzzle here. Probably most likely linked with Israel. They're good as such type of things.

I was wondering why this happened (apart from the fact Erdogan seems to be acting like a world class idiot) and then I remembered how my family react to 'news', i.e. how they get their minds manipulated, via their emotions.

'The Public' needs a 'Bad Guy'..... in order to support any type of military action. Turkey may be in the process of being set up as said 'bad guy'. Allowing the US to dodge that bullet in the minds of 'The Public'. Perception, on the part of the 'Western Public', seems to be very important to these guys. They would cheerfully sacrifice their own in order to control it.
:

I think you may be on to something, Ruth.

The US has found themselves in a very difficult position because of Russia's action. They are in danger of having their part of the horrid situation in the Middle East becoming obvious to too many people. Putin has really torn back the curtain.

So maybe the US and the Western powers are venturing a new narrative. "See what the Turks did? They're the ones who are behind ISIS." It might seem the them that this would fool enough of the world to complete a diversion. A real stab in Turkey's back.

Of course, Putin won't be fooled.

We'll see if they get away with it. Oh the convolutions of twisted minds.

Mac
 
Just saw this on RT, video's of the S-400 deployment in the Khmeimim air base :

No US airstrikes in Syria since Russia deployed S-400 systems

https://www.rt.com/news/323815-syria-s-400-us-airstrikes/

It's such a relief that only Russia is in possession of the S-400, and the Empire has no equivalent air defence system.
 
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/88169.htm
The tension that was created after the shooting down of a Russian jet fighter by Turkish warplanes has led several Greeks to refer to Elder Paisios‘ prophecies about war between Russia and Turkey.

The ascetic monk Paisios, who became Saint Paisios by the Holy Synod of the Greek Orthodox Church in January, was known for his prophecies and predictions. One of them was that Istanbul, once the capital of the Byzantine Empire Constantinople, will become Greek again.

Specifically, Paisios wrote: “Events will start that will culminate with us taking back Constantinople. Constantinople will be given to us. There will be war between Russia and Turkey. In the beginning the Turks will believe they are winning, but this will lead to their destruction. The Russians, eventually, will win and take over Constantinople. After that it will be ours. They will be forced to give it to us.”

The text reads further, “(The Turks) will be destroyed. They will be eradicated because they are a nation that was built without God’s blessing. One third of the Turks will go back to where they came from, the depths of Turkey. One third will be saved because they will become Christians, and the other third will be killed in this war.” This is based on the Saint Kosmas prophecy.

Saint Paisios reposed on July 12, 1994. One of the things he wrote was, “I wanted nothing else but God to keep me alive for a few more years so I could see my country expand. And it will expand…”

“Turkey will be dissected. This will be to our benefit as a nation. This way our villages will be liberated, our enslaved homelands. Constantinople will be liberated, will become Greek again. Hagia Sophia will open again,” the text reads.

“Turkey will be dissected in 3 or 4 parts. The countdown has begun. We will take the lands that belong to us, the Armenians will take theirs and the Kurds their own. The Kurdish issue is at the works,” the text continues.

Paisios wrote further: “As long as there is faith and hope in God, a lot of people will rejoice. All that will happen in these years. The time has come.”

Saint Paisios the Athonite was born Arsenios Eznepidis in July 1924, in Farasa Cappadocia. His father was called Prodromos and his mother Evlampia. He had eight siblings. On August 7, 1924, a week before the Greeks of Farasa returned to the homeland, he was baptized by the parish priest, Arsenios, whom the Orthodox Church recognized as a saint. Arsenios insisted and gave him his name “to leave a monk in his place,” as he said.

Five weeks after the boy’s christening, on September 14, 1924, the Eznepidis family, along with other refugees, arrived at Piraeus and then went to Corfu, where they stayed for eighteen months. The family then moved to Igoumenitsa and then to Konitsa where Arsenios finished elementary school and got his diploma with “excellent conduct.” Ever since he was a child, he was writing down the miracles of Saint Arsenios. He had an inclination towards monasticism and wanted to become a monk.

Arsenios went to Mount Athos to become a monk in 1949, right after his discharge from the army. He stayed for one night at the Monastery of Saint John the Theologian in Karyes and then slept in the hermitage of Saint Panteleimon, in the cell of the Virgin Mary, where he met father Cyril, abbot of the monastery, and followed him faithfully. After spending time in various retreats of Mount Athos and Sinai, he moved to Koutloumousio monastery until he became seriously ill and passed away in the summer of 1994.

He was buried in the Holy Monastery of Saint John the Theologian in Souroti, Thessaloniki. Since then, every year on July 11 to July 12, the anniversary of his death, there is a vigil in the Sanctuary Retreat, with thousands of believers attending.

Elder Paisios wrote four books, published by the Holy Monastery Saint John the Theologian: Saint Arsenios the Cappadocian (1991), Elder Hadji-Georgis the Athonite, 1809-1886 (1986), Athonite Fathers and Athonite Matters (1993) and Letters (1994).

Elder Paisios became known for a number of controversial political statements and prophecies. These include the prediction that a war with Turkey will lead to a restoration of a Greater Greece that includes Albania, Macedonia and Byzantium (Istanbul), and the mass conversion of Turks from Islam to Orthodox Christianity. Many Greeks compare Paisios to Nostradamus.

Elder Paisios - The Prophecies about Constantinople and Turkey Russia war (English subs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4qpT_ow3sc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Paisios_of_Mount_Athos

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/88174.html (parts of speech with links in russian language only)
 
Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan voiced "sadness" on Saturday over the downing of a Russian fighter jet by Turkish forces, saying he wished it had not happened.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/erdogan-expresses-sadness-russian-jet-shot-151128112138694.html
 
casper said:
Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan voiced "sadness" on Saturday over the downing of a Russian fighter jet by Turkish forces, saying he wished it had not happened.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/erdogan-expresses-sadness-russian-jet-shot-151128112138694.html

The airplane commander's family undoubtedly feels sadness as well.

Thomas
 
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