How to think outside of the box

Thank you, its very challenging for me :)

In the mainstream Christian religion for example, every human is a sinner but there has been an external savior who has done all the hard work sacrificing himself thereby redeeming humanity. So the payoff in that box is that personal responsibility for spiritual progress is removed. All that is needed is belief in the doctrine.

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Would you accept to explain me what is to understand in the concept of "personal responsability" I did not really get it; it seems kind of "vague" to me, even "cloaked", but I read it several times here on the forum lately.

Then, I am trying to understand the larger sentence : how "personal responsibility for spiritual progress is removed".

I would like to understand how it is that when joining most of the spiritual groups, one will find himself in such a pool (a teaching promulgating unconscious or conscious payoff).

I think I can "feel" that there are many people who do things they ought not to do, like all the "white magic" stuff, Wicca and so. You guys keep teaching us how this is actually wishful thinking, because when "casting spells" or "love bombing" to someone, it would not respect the other's personal boundaries, as the other person is not being asked if she wants this active action on his head - or not.

I understood as well, with the concept of "payoff", that one allowing himself in such practices would be kind of expecting a result, a payoff, a "positive" or a "negative" result.

It's really cool to read about it, as it helps to make a very clear and precise sorting of "things". When sometimes meeting people with strong convictions in their spiritual group, it is helpful to be able to immediately spot when one is facing payoff-related systems.

But still, I was not yet able to make the sentence "personal responsibility for spiritual progress is removed" match with this understanding. Is it in the sense "I will do whatever thing helps me to progress without looking at the consequences"? But, in this case, it is not spiritual progression, isn't it?

Is it because that person has a payoff, "spiritual progression"?

I can see as well the concept of "expectation" relating to it when I look at it this way.

Thanks to all of you.

PS: is "Let's go out of the payoff zone" a payoff expectation ?!

Here is some information found when researching the "payoff" concept in the transcripts:


Session 30 March 2002

Q: (V) Okay, so he is a tool of 4th density STS... what is the payoff for Frank, what does he think the payoff is?

A: He is lost in the illusion of his own importance. He believes that others agree with his assessment.

Q: (V) You know, that doesn't seem like a real worthwhile payoff to me. I guess that's what separates the wheat from chaff. For self-aggrandizement - getting what you want - to be more important than growing and learning. It seems like a cheap payoff.

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Session 15 April 2000

The psychology of the human being cannot have changed all that much over the many thousands of years from then to now, and it is true that people do not do anything without a powerful motivation; what I call the "payoff." What could be the payoff to haul these things around on greased logs as they are depicted? To create a monument or to bury their kings? To get naked and dance in the moonlight?

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Session 4 April 2015 (Comment)

Laura said:

If ya'll have been keeping up on the study of psychopathology, this would not be at all surprising nor difficult to understand. Nobody does anything without a "payoff". Yes, it is hard to understand what psychopaths get out of what they do, but with effort and application, you can begin to understand it. The twist is, they can NEVER understand normal humans.

Understanding psychopaths really, really, is important. Without this understanding, you can't "see behind the curtain" or connect the dots. We all tend to project our motivations onto others and it is particularly bad when you do that in the direction of a psychopath. I'm guilty of it again and again because, like everyone else, it was really hard for me to grok and I had to spend about ten years studying it from every angle to really get it hammered into my brain.

Probably every aspect of our lives is influenced by psychopaths so there is very good reason to study them as unpleasant as it may be. And it is decidedly unpleasant, repellant, disturbing, and all of that. But without doing so, we are at their mercy.

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know_yourself said:

Would you accept to explain me what is to understand in the concept of "personal responsability" I did not really get it; it seems kind of "vague" to me, even "cloaked", but I read it several times here on the forum lately.

Then, I am trying to understand the larger sentence : how "personal responsibility for spiritual progress is removed".

I would like to understand how it is that when joining most of the spiritual groups, one will find himself in such a pool (a teaching promulgating unconscious or conscious payoff).

I think I can "feel" that there are many people who do things they ought not to do, like all the "white magic" stuff, Wicca and so. You guys keep teaching us how this is actually wishful thinking, because when "casting spells" or "love bombing" to someone, it would not respect the other's personal boundaries, as the other person is not being asked if she wants this active action on his head - or not.

I understood as well, with the concept of "payoff", that one allowing himself in such practices would be kind of expecting a result, a payoff, a "positive" or a "negative" result.

It's really cool to read about it, as it helps to make a very clear and precise sorting of "things". When sometimes meeting people with strong convictions in their spiritual group, it is helpful to be able to immediately spot when one is facing payoff-related systems.

But still, I was not yet able to make the sentence "personal responsibility for spiritual progress is removed" match with this understanding. Is it in the sense "I will do whatever thing helps me to progress without looking at the consequences"? But, in this case, it is not spiritual progression, isn't it?

Is it because that person has a payoff, "spiritual progression"?

I can see as well the concept of "expectation" relating to it when I look at it this way.

Click to expand...

At the outset, let me clarify that the belief in savior is in no way restricted to mainstream Christianity but is seen in other religions as well. I just picked the example because the majority of forumites are from this background and it would be more familiar to them. If picking the example I did has offended anyone, it was not my intention to offend.

By "responsibility for spiritual progress" I mean every individual is responsible for learning more about the nature of reality we inhabit, adapt to the reality in an intelligent and creative way and be an active participant in life. The term "active" is not just in terms of externally visible activity. Proselytizers are very active externally and it comes from an attitude of already knowing how the world is, how it is going to be and convert everyone else see their point of view. In the attitude of people who believe in an external savior, there is a lack of questioning and active seeking of how reality works. So "active" means constant inner alertness as well, accepting a state of limited knowledge and working towards improved understanding. Empirical observation shows that belief in a savior often hinders such an attitude.

Now, coming to the question whether any idea of spiritual progress is rooted in a payoff of some kind. To me the answer is yes, in most cases. If there is no payoff, why do anything at our level ? Here "level" indicates the present state of consciousness (being) and understanding (doing). As being and doing grows, one is able to engage more and more with reality in a way that is a natural expression of his/her essence, which goes hand in hand with an understanding of what is needed from a wider, more cosmic perspective. But to start on the path, a payoff is often needed. From what I have studied so far, the desire to "be free of suffering" can be one example of a strong payoff. This desire can be skillfully cultivated for the benefit of self and others. There can be other examples of payoffs as well.

[quote author=know_yourself]
PS: is "Let's go out of the payoff zone" a payoff expectation ?!
[/quote]

Like I wrote in a previous post in this thread, I do not consider "payoff" or desire or expectation to be bad. The important thing is to be consciously aware of the payoff and act in ways that are skillful (and virtuous, but I understand virtue as a skill). It is how we understand and use the payoff that appeals to us in a way that helps ourselves and others that is important. Spiritual journey of the kind we are interested in here necessarily involves welfare of self and others. And that path is built out of skillful desires - at least that is my current understanding.

Does this clarify?

Yes :)

Thank you very much