Helping others and networking

Alada said:

It seems one of the problems we all face (or maybe it's just me ) is that we're generally terrified of others and what they will think. We're terrified of doing wrong, of making mistakes, of being embarrassed, of putting our foot in it, of admitting mistakes (in both the past, and especially the present), of being chastised, of being rejected, of being made a fool, of being regarded an idiot, and so on...

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Thank you for starting this thread, Alada. I can relate to the above, too.

Another similar problem I find myself is that I do cherry picking all the time consciously and unconsciously. When there are a lot of things to do on a plate, writing a post or working on things that takes more energy is left unfinished and becomes the least priority. If this gets habitual, it would keep becoming harder and harder to break it.

Thanks to this network now we can connect with others, find a help to change these habits as well as to learn how to think and do things differently. By participating in it, we are giving opportunities to experience and learn to ourselves AND to others both. Of course, it’s always easier said than done though.

Alada said:

It's so very often the little things, like working on such habits, which can add up to make a big difference in the end. Worth remembering with that thought though, that the difference can take effect both in a negative or positive direction, so we really have to pay attention to the little things I think. It changes where we go.

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Good reminder. When there are more eyes available to look one after another, we have more chance to get notice to the little things when they come up and navigate through by finding the optimal solution for situation.

13 Twirling Triskeles said:

One consideration I have sometimes is when I foresee that I may not be able to make time to respond to any replies given to my posts or replies. And that consideration can make me forego posting. Alternatively, I could simply add to my post that I may not be able to respond in a timely manner - and that I will attempt to do so when I can.

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Yes, I think it’s is okay to post short and let people know that you are going to take time and respond later. :)

Azur said:

Alada said:

RedFox said:

Without the checks and balances, it can be easy to bounce from one end of the stick to the other. Never actually knowing what the right responce is, or learning from the interaction.

[...]

It seems to be working out how to find balance between the two allows you to get past the block on not posting, and just posting to relieve the pressure. I'm still not entirely sure how to do that well yet, sometimes I just want an instruction manual!

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Sometimes when it's like that I think it's okay, and maybe even better, to sit on a post and wait, hold back if there is doubt or just a feeling that something isn't quite right. Our inner state can change greatly from day to day (which is part of the problem), so holding off even for a day or so can show you that: Yes, this post/thought/feeling is silly, I'll put that to one side and explore what was going on in myself there. Or, you come back to a thought and see that it is actually reasonable, where there was uncertainty before.

In my experience at least, problems and glitches can stem very often from negative emotions, and the thoughts that can spring from them. To talk very generally, that end of the stick can tend to have a certain feel or 'taste' to it. It's the first clue I think that it might be better to hold fire, at least until we're sure we have a much firmer grip on the reigns.

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Quite right. I've never been eloquent in expressing feelings or what I see, via the written word. I imagine it's hard for most people, too.

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I have the same difficulty, too so I understand. I think there is no easy way around it. Practice makes perfect. FWIW

Azur said:

So there's also a filter/program at work when reading and posting.

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Yes there are definitely filters and programs running when we read I think.

By way of example, I got a shock quite a while back when reading a post here that I thought came from a poster whose messages I always seemed to have a difficulty with and always received them as if written in an 'angry' tone (I tend to sound the words mentally when reading, rather than being able to read an absorb the text at speed without doing that). The shock came when I realised that I read the post using the 'voice' of another poster to whom I always seemed to give a friendly tone when reading them. It was a shock!

If I read the post again using the first 'angry' tone, the whole thing changed, and what I saw was that the program which was running got in the way of being able to receive the information that was there.

When you spot that running, you can then change the tone and see what might be there. Especially helpful when we others are trying to help us and emotional programs start running, we don't hear whats being said.

When you can't spot it running, but know the habit and are not sure, then there's always the network to ask and check if the perception is correct or not. The lesson seems to be that yes, our thinking gets skewed when emotions get in the way, but proper networking can help to correct for that, provided we get the horses under control.

Aya said:

Another similar problem I find myself is that I do cherry picking all the time consciously and unconsciously. When there are a lot of things to do on a plate, writing a post or working on things that takes more energy is left unfinished and becomes the least priority. If this gets habitual, it would keep becoming harder and harder to break it.

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Finishing things is a good one to work on I think. Again, it might seem like a small thing, but in work terms there is a lot there. Tasks and projects at a certain point need a final push to complete them. It's at that point that need to learn to apply determination and will to get to the end. It requires a conscious effort, otherwise again we're back on the easy automatic path where nothing changes. Even if starting the next thing gives the illusion that it has. So it seems to me.

Alada said:

Azur said:

So there's also a filter/program at work when reading and posting.

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Yes there are definitely filters and programs running when we read I think.

By way of example, I got a shock quite a while back when reading a post here that I thought came from a poster whose messages I always seemed to have a difficulty with and always received them as if written in an 'angry' tone (I tend to sound the words mentally when reading, rather than being able to read an absorb the text at speed without doing that). The shock came when I realised that I read the post using the 'voice' of another poster to whom I always seemed to give a friendly tone when reading them. It was a shock!

If I read the post again using the first 'angry' tone, the whole thing changed, and what I saw was that the program which was running got in the way of being able to receive the information that was there.

When you spot that running, you can then change the tone and see what might be there. Especially helpful when we others are trying to help us and emotional programs start running, we don't hear whats being said.

When you can't spot it running, but know the habit and are not sure, then there's always the network to ask and check if the perception is correct or not. The lesson seems to be that yes, our thinking gets skewed when emotions get in the way, but proper networking can help to correct for that, provided we get the horses under control.

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You've melted quite a bit of ice with this post.

Thank you for listening, and thank you for the warmth. The Work can be a cold, lonely road sometimes.

Azur said:

You've melted quite a bit of ice with this post.

Thank you for listening, and thank you for the warmth. The Work can be a cold, lonely road sometimes.

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Well I know what you mean and have sometimes felt that way, but really I think that often that comes from us standing in our own way. Up to us to work on it and make sure it doesn't remain so! It's the commune aspect of communication which helps there I think. Which brings thoughts back to networking effectively and working out what the programs are that get in the way of that.

Alada said:

Such a recapitulation to find examples in ourselves is necessary I think, so that the next time the program tries to run there can be a 'stop' moment, an opportunity for us to add a conscious shock, do what "it" doesn't like and move ourselves on from the usual automatic response (or in this case, lack of response).
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The more we can learn to resist inaction, begin helping others and networking where we can, the more we can change our paths I think. And as the Cs have said many times: Networking works!

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Thank you for posting this, Alada. It was a timely reminder. What I have noticed is that it takes continual ‘stalking’ of myself because the urge to stay silent is so ingrained in me, yet I very much want to be more active on the Forum – it’s quite a struggle between the I’s. What I have found is that when I push through the program and keep doing so, it does get easier. If I begin to slack off, making excuses to myself, such as ‘not having anything to say’, I lose ground and the momentum against the program stalls; and getting going again can be even more difficult.

I do sometimes read posts and take some time to think about them and as Odyssey said, try to feel what that person is going through. And often I find that by the time I think of an appropriate response many others have already said more or less the same thing, which then causes me to hold back. But I need to remember that sometimes people need to hear things a few times and spoken in different ways to help them fully comprehend the point.

aleana said:

What I have found is that when I push through the program and keep doing so, it does get easier. If I begin to slack off, making excuses to myself, such as ‘not having anything to say’, I lose ground and the momentum against the program stalls; and getting going again can be even more difficult.

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Yep, recognise that one. Maybe we have to go through the cycle a few times of stalling and then seeing how hard it is to come back a few times in order to really get it. The shock then of realising what may be lost if we allow ourselves to go in the that direction again can help then, provided we remember our aim.

We have to accept the fact too, that what we wish to do is difficult, involves great struggle, great effort, not being lazy. To help, I try to remind myself of this little snippet form In Search of the Miraculous:

[quote author=Gurdjieff]
In addition to these fundamental demands it is of course presumed that the members of the group must work. If they merely frequent the group and do no work but merely imagine that they are working, or if they regard as work their mere presence in the group, or, as often happens, if they look upon their presence in the group as a pastime, if they make pleasant acquaintances, and so on, then their presence in the group likewise becomes completely useless. And the sooner they are sent away or leave of their own accord the better it will be for them and for the others.[/quote]

There is still a part of me which flinches when I read the above, but it is a fact. I need then to find the part which can deal with that fact (not flinch from it), and get on with the work. Or so I think.

Woodsman said:

Oxajil said:

Even if nobody responds, there have been many times when people read a post and think it's helpful. There are also lurkers that read posts that are helpful to them in some way, and sometimes even encourage them to sign up and join the discussion or others. Hope this helps a bit. For what it's worth, I haven't replied to your posts in the tobacco thread for example, but I remember reading some of them and finding them interesting.

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We must also remember that even if an idea seems plain or mundane to its author, that author is the holder of a unique and vital perspective in the universe, especially if they have been doing the work, which naturally causes them to differentiate from the template human. So long as a thought is earnestly considered and carries the external consideration required to be understandable to others, its very presence serves to channel power into the network, and further be magnified across hundreds of potential reader's minds, where it might chance to stimulate new thoughts and thus returned power. A true perpetual motion machine. Contrast that against keeping it locked up in just the author's own head.

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Hi Woodsman, the post you wrote above on the perpetual motion machine gave me a great mental impression.. it was cool!

I am afraid to admit that I do easily fall into apathy and laziness. This thread is a good alarm clock as it reaches straight to the heart. One thing that bothers me about posting is the inability to be spontaneous. I find that the need to check and correct my post, or double back and rewrite things takes away from the "authenticity" of what I write. There's so much impression management that goes on in my head that I'm ashamed to admit it. However as I write this I feel myself getting calmer and more able to project my mind in a coherent way. It seems like, when I do start composing, things are being arranged from the subconscious and pushed out to the conscious working memory in a more orderly fashion.

I like the point you made, Alada, about the mind-voices and how we start to get a picture of what a member is like through their posts. For me, I tend to like looking at people's post counts to give me an idea of "where they are" in the Work. This seems judgmental. By focusing on this, the percieved value of members posts will be skewed towards members with higher post counts and seniority thus potentially losing beneficial input from members who post less. This, I suppose, overrides empathy, which should be the way we build connections with one another even in this virtual realm.

Well about the point in the first paragraph, I find that when I write, my thinking process becomes more deeply engaged (ie. system 2 thinking) and the faults in my thoughts become more apparent. It is as though there is a self-correcting mechanism that works as you proceed to interface with others especially within this group. So there seems to be an aspect of external considering at play. If posting and communication of feeling and thoughts was not done in a regular basis, ie. putting effort into exercising discretion and external considering, that would mean more routine, self-centered, fearful thoughts becoming the norm. There is no threat to the predator being discovered, a no stress life. Nothing new to see here folks, move on!

I would have to resign myself to being circumspect about my posting, rather than doing it off-the-cuff. It could be due to the "brain damage" which I suffered while growing up with pathology, which makes the mind so fickle and scattered. However I am sure that will be moments where I will have instantaneous insights that may be of immediate use to others.

Also the point about self-aggrandizement is a good one. It seems that there is a balancing act to be performed when trying to impart your point of view. It feels good to be able to voice out your opinion in a way that is not skewed towards either side of self-aggrandizement or self-deprecation. It seems to promote a calm and balanced state of mind. That's my two cents :D

Alada said:

Yep, recognise that one. Maybe we have to go through the cycle a few times of stalling and then seeing how hard it is to come back a few times in order to really get it. The shock then of realising what may be lost if we allow ourselves to go in the that direction again can help then, provided we remember our aim.

We have to accept the fact too, that what we wish to do is difficult, involves great struggle, great effort, not being lazy. To help, I try to remind myself of this little snippet form In Search of the Miraculous:

[quote author=Gurdjieff]
In addition to these fundamental demands it is of course presumed that the members of the group must work. If they merely frequent the group and do no work but merely imagine that they are working, or if they regard as work their mere presence in the group, or, as often happens, if they look upon their presence in the group as a pastime, if they make pleasant acquaintances, and so on, then their presence in the group likewise becomes completely useless. And the sooner they are sent away or leave of their own accord the better it will be for them and for the others.

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There is still a part of me which flinches when I read the above, but it is a fact. I need then to find the part which can deal with that fact (not flinch from it), and get on with the work. Or so I think.
[/quote]

I've played the Fool too many times for imagined gains; the above applies to me these last few years. You've put the finger on it.

Alada said:

There is still a part of me which flinches when I read the above, but it is a fact. I need then to find the part which can deal with that fact (not flinch from it), and get on with the work. Or so I think.

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Well said I think. Speaking of 'flinching', in my experience it is very important to deal with this feeling, because it really can keep us from doing the right thing - it makes us want to hide under the blanket, shut the world out, blame others/the universe for our misery etc.

What I do when I notice I 'flinch' (for whatever reason - an unpleasant email comes in, I'm confronted with a task I didn't see coming that I don't like, I feel afraid of being criticised/ridiculed etc.), is that I deliberately try to deeply feel this flinching, embracing the pain so to say, while not focusing so much on the thoughts but the sensation. Kind of a 'bring it on' attitude - let me feel everything, fill my whole body with this feeling, and observe. I think if we practice this, we can recognize the 'taste' of this flinching sensation and lose our fear of it - next time, we may be able to say "hi Flinch, is it you again? I'm not afraid, I know how you make me feel, and I can take it and still think function". Osit.

Alada said:

aleana said:

What I have found is that when I push through the program and keep doing so, it does get easier. If I begin to slack off, making excuses to myself, such as ‘not having anything to say’, I lose ground and the momentum against the program stalls; and getting going again can be even more difficult.

Click to expand...

Yep, recognise that one. Maybe we have to go through the cycle a few times of stalling and then seeing how hard it is to come back a few times in order to really get it. The shock then of realising what may be lost if we allow ourselves to go in the that direction again can help then, provided we remember our aim.

We have to accept the fact too, that what we wish to do is difficult, involves great struggle, great effort, not being lazy. To help, I try to remind myself of this little snippet form In Search of the Miraculous:

[quote author=Gurdjieff]
In addition to these fundamental demands it is of course presumed that the members of the group must work. If they merely frequent the group and do no work but merely imagine that they are working, or if they regard as work their mere presence in the group, or, as often happens, if they look upon their presence in the group as a pastime, if they make pleasant acquaintances, and so on, then their presence in the group likewise becomes completely useless. And the sooner they are sent away or leave of their own accord the better it will be for them and for the others.

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There is still a part of me which flinches when I read the above, but it is a fact. I need then to find the part which can deal with that fact (not flinch from it), and get on with the work. Or so I think.
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The same thing is happening to me. Its a some kind of force inside me that is stopping me from doing .

For example when i started to post on this forum i was a real struggle for me and on some occasions it still is.
But the determination to do it and post it was very strong . It was a real battle inside me. On one side my will to post and participate and on othe side were programs inside me that were stopping me to do that.

There are many programs and they still are there like fear from what other my think, fear if the post will be just a noise or it will help somebody . And as much As i was thinking and observing I was discovering more and more programs.
And then i thought that if I want to post something I will post. If I thing I have some issue and I need help then I will post. If I can help someone with some my information or observation then I will post

And As time passed it became more and more easy or natural to do that. Sometimes there are times that all my programs hit so hard that it is getting a very hard to do it but i keep strugling with them.

Its not just about posting. I took that as one very good example in my case, but its simillar in many other activities.

But even if I make mistakes, even if some of the posts are noise then i can receive response from other members and learn how to not do that in the future.

And other programs can kick in those moments.Not accepting the responce , or threat it like an attack or insult.

So as I can see i either cases we can be aware of the program , wich is beneficial for us.

Alada said:

[quote author=Gurdjieff]
In addition to these fundamental demands it is of course presumed that the members of the group must work. If they merely frequent the group and do no work but merely imagine that they are working, or if they regard as work their mere presence in the group, or, as often happens, if they look upon their presence in the group as a pastime, if they make pleasant acquaintances, and so on, then their presence in the group likewise becomes completely useless. And the sooner they are sent away or leave of their own accord the better it will be for them and for the others.

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There is still a part of me which flinches when I read the above, but it is a fact. I need then to find the part which can deal with that fact (not flinch from it), and get on with the work. Or so I think.
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That made me flinch too when I read it – it was a needed shock to the system to force me to consider what is lost every time I let that program win thereby weakening my resolve and strengthening the predator within. It really is a force to work against – it sometimes feels like a physical barrier I am going up against. Sometimes it is easier to work against and other days it feels near impossible, but I have found that when I push against it during those times when it IS most difficult, I gain more strength by the effort.

I also have to remind myself how often things that others have said made distinct impressions on me, and it’s often the way they were phrased that made the message hit home. A sincere desire to help and the feeling you convey in that state can make a big difference.

Konstantin said:

But even if I make mistakes, even if some of the posts are noise then i can receive response from other members and learn how to not do that in the future.

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Exactly. Often we can self-justify with this or that reason for not doing, sometimes it]s through laziness, other times I think we lie to ourselves as a way to just avoid that feeling. But as you say, when we make mistakes there is an opportunity to learn, as long as we don't flinch.

aleana said:

Sometimes it is easier to work against and other days it feels near impossible, but I have found that when I push against it during those times when it IS most difficult, I gain more strength by the effort.

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Yes, just as as Gurdjieff said (to paraphrase), the more difficult the conditions, the more productive can be the Work. Provided we remember the Work.

Thanks Alada for this thread,

It seems one of the problems we all face (or maybe it's just me ) is that we're generally terrified of others and what they will think. We're terrified of doing wrong, of making mistakes, of being embarrassed, of putting our foot in it, of admitting mistakes (in both the past, and especially the present), of being chastised, of being rejected, of being made a fool, of being regarded an idiot, and so on...

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The above, upon reflection, is something that has entered my mind for sure, the other thing I feel is that I'm not "qualified" enough, that other members of the forum would know better, so rather than adding noise, better that someone else with more knowledge answers.

My make nice program is something I have been working on of late and it seems a big part of it is avoidance. Avoid confrontation, avoid looking stupid etc

Often we can self-justify with this or that reason for not doing, sometimes it]s through laziness, other times I think we lie to ourselves as a way to just avoid that feeling. But as you say, when we make mistakes there is an opportunity to learn

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So yes, that hit home too, it's ok to be wrong and make mistakes, that way you can be called on it and learn what you need to do to correct it.

aleana said:

Sometimes it is easier to work against and other days it feels near impossible, but I have found that when I push against it during those times when it IS most difficult, I gain more strength by the effort.

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Also from me, thank you Aleana for opening this thread, as posting here on the forum is an ongoing struggle for me. And reading through all the input makes me conscious of so many different aspects of my programs.

The quote above is now a guideline for me to remember that in the end all excuses are just excuses, to allow the predators mind to stop participation, networking and maybe helping others.

I noticed that often I do want to post and when I start to "rethink" of what and how to write selfdoubt clicks in and the downward spiral begins. In the end I am worn out, even if it's just a little. Every time I give in to giving up I enforce the neuronal paths of failure in my brain. My programs try to avoid feeling fear and in the end I have fed exactly this fear.

Through this thread I learn how to observe my relationship to posting as part of self remembering. There is a lot to discover for me. It really lights it up and makes observable.

Odyssey said:

Feeling stupid, not wanting to say the wrong thing (whatever that is), measuring yourself against some imaginary standard and much more can stand in the way.

bjorn said:

And yes, you probably will say things from time to time that were not as clever as you thought it was. But that's life, there is no escaping that.

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Absolutely.

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That's one of the main issues I have with participating in any conversation or discussion, not just here in the forum. I need to write the perfect post, make the perfect comment, be untouchable. To me it sometimes feels like being a monster or silly fool wearing the costume of a decent human. I think it has something to do with the way I judge myself, the way I have been judged in my childhood. If I were to just express myself right away, the way I truly am, everyone would be shocked and reject me for what I am. That is the underlying fear, isn't it? This imagination is exaggerated. It's the fearful child in me, that thinks it can't handle any friction, any irritation or controversy, the consequences of being myself. So in order to get approved, to avoid friction, to avoid myself really, I tend to find ways to please others, mirror their interests, their likes and dislikes and be the one they like in order to hide my 'monstrosity'. I know better by now. Still I find myself experiencing that same fear every now and then. I try to counteract this fear but also embrace it as a consequence of past influences. It's not enough to just know that this 'pleasing-program' is not justified anymore. I need to practice it and convince my inner child that times have changed, that I can handle friction, take responsibility for my deeds and learn from my mistakes. Better call it experience. I'm not that helpless child anymore. I try to do my best in any given moment and stand by my results instead of trying to be perfect and hide my shortcomings.

This thread is very encouraging in that regard, to see that others also struggle with similar issues. I want to grow and learn to be more helpful to others and be part of a more healthy environment/ community.