The Believing Brain and C's clues...
- Thread starter Divide by Zero
- Start date
Divide by Zero
The Living Force
sedenion said:
Why do you need to validate the belief system? I can listen to a Christian's ideas and not have to validate his ideas. I go by the data, what I feel is right. In the past there were people in the group who had a high status and were saying wrong things, if we just validated what they said on beliefs- there would be a block from finding the truth.
Have you wondered why you become sad and why being serious about it makes anxiety? If you check the psychology part of the forum, there are books that explain that sometimes our own minds will produce this anxiety in order to keep us away from things.
My girlfriend many times would shut down and not want to talk about things because of her inner anxiety. Better to make it outer here so you can be serious about it.
Earlier you explained your self-esteem as being dependent on doing very well. That's a danger. I had that too, all through school with a mother who expected 90% at least.
You know how I stopped it?
One day I got so sick and tired (and angry!) of pushing hard to meet unrealistic standards. My anger finally awoken to the unfairness of the system. I am a good person, who cares about the system! There a small self-esteem of my own self was born. I had to feel compassion for myself, that I am only human, not a superhuman perfect being! Sometimes anger flips a person to not want to do anything, as my girlfriend went through. But the fine line of balance is to see that there is a standard we should strive for, just not the mechanical one that was pushed onto us by society (Pierre mentioned that about studies and so on).
A good song about this is here: http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/radiohead/optimistic.html
"If you try the best you can
The best you can is good enough"
And that depends on what you deem is your best, not what we or society thinks. That's how to build self-esteem.
We take things seriously because we don't want to fall asleep thinking that everything is perfect. That's different than the perfectionism program, which takes things seriously in order to keep feeding the narcissism- the predator's mind. On the opposite side, to not be serious means to avoid the main problem. We are trying to figure out how to not do the mechanical things that humanity (that includes us) does. To think that is the only way to be, in itself is a belief that is limiting.
The spot analogy isn't the same. Sometimes you have a spot that you keep ignoring and it grows into skin cancer. It's not so black and white. Sometimes we need to notice the spot and take action.
Not hide deficits. To face the deficit and accept it is what matters when they do the group mirror. It's our subconscious brain that tries to hide things. To accept a fault is not hiding it, but to face it and realize that we all have faults! Fear of judgement happens, but it's also rooted in perfectionism and fear of lack of self. If you think that without that deficit you don't exist deep down, you will fall apart. In some cases, people become that deficit... people become obsessed about "consentual" sexual sadism and masochism for example. Many times it is due to damage that is the only way they can see. We can say the same about perfectionism, abused emotionally to be perfect and put down when not- we see everyone judging us to be perfect and expect the same of others. Maybe that's how you are judging the group now?
Divide By Zero said:
I don't need... and in this case, as you can see, i don't validate. And this provok some misunderstanding, because belief systems are conflicting. Like when you speak with a fundamentalist christians and you say to him that Yahweh was an alien and its "glory" a flying saucer...
My intent here, is to explain how a belief systems that appear normal and neutral, can in fact being harmful. If i believe you are a poor guy, and try to help you with all the compassion i can (acting with you like you were a poor guy), the double-edge of this belief, is that i will implicitely force you to adhere to my belief, so you will finally believe you are a poor guy.
Divide By Zero said:
Because the interaction of belief system and value systems.
Divide By Zero said:
( this history of "books", realy being a running gag
)Divide By Zero said:
Yes, fear is a protection mechanism, it is relevant in some case, and sometimes it is paralysing.
Divide By Zero said:
My self-esteem is a complex thing... what if i told you i prefer to have an average low self-esteem because this is reassuring for me ?
Divide By Zero said:
(ok, let's go www.my-life.com, attach your belt https://youtu.be/pMejtjXD53E?t=55s )
You right, the problem for me is that my anger is not oriented against "the system", but against the whole universe, because i know "the system" is nothing but a result of the laws of this universe. Then, as you see, even from Cassiopaeans, the story still the same: There is winers and losers, the univers is a contest, you must "work", you have to "fight"... Then i say: I never asked to be included in this contest, i don't want to participate...
However, i continue my life, as a tourrist... "let's see what this world will invent... let's see how this world is upside-down, perverse, and stupid...let's see how the universe will treat me, let's see if there is somewhere a true justice, or if all that is just a kind bad joke..." I also can redirect my anger against myself, which does not solve the problem... The fact is, that there is something i can't digest... me, this world, both, i don't care, i am tired to ask myself where is the problem, i prefer to simply admit that i am "not compatible" with this univers, and maybe "not compatible" with "be"... If that should ends by my disintegration, that's ok for me: the univers is a big wasting, so, i would be another garbage to be recycled, wasted on the altar of the "great perfection project" of "God"... If God find funny to wast and destroy souls by puting them in that perfectly devious world, to see, who will "survive" the great butchery, who am i, to be against God ? Amen. You see, this is why i don't like to speak about myself, myself is something i would prefer to forget and i live better without stir all that kind of consideration about "self"... "work on self", "true self", "destiny of the self", "self my ass"... Maybe i will change my point of view, a day... maybe i will see all this big wasting as a marvelous piece of art despite what it appear.
Divide By Zero said:
Take a look outside, you will be awakened
ok, i stops bad jokes... You see, it is so obvious to me that everythings is a perpetual unjustice that what i need is to dedramatize and take things with some humor and lightness... fortunately, i kept my sens of humor... Divide By Zero said:
This group is composed of many different individuals. Too early now to make a "group set" judgment.
A
Archaea
Guest
Take a look outside, you will be awakened
Hi sedenion, you could love your sense of humor more than you love yourself. There you go, I figured it out, now you can start the work. I hope you enjoy the books.
With regards to emotional blocks, I think that maybe they can be created from the belief that only physical reality is objective, while our emotional reality is subjective and therefore not real. If our emotional reality is not real then our emotions don't really exist. If society at large then places judgments on what emotions are acceptable and are not acceptable, people will then start suppressing the emotions they believe are unacceptable and this'll cause emotional blocks.
If emotions do have an objective reality, however, then in order to move past our emotional blocks we need to accept our emotions as a part of ourselves. FWIW Seth says that emotions are our connection to the multidimensional reality and are therefore more objective than physical reality. There's also this quote from the C's which I think is relevant:
I've been thinking about this some more. My understanding ATM is that we learn by associations, so if we have the set of associations:
1) A is associated with B
2) B is associated with C
3) A is not associated with C
Then, using logic, 1) and 2) and 3) = false. i.e. it's not true. So someone who has these associations in their brain would be believing a lie or false information. There's this quote from the C's as well:
I think if we were to look at all the things the C's and other reputable channeling sources have said regarding beliefs and how they work we'd end up with a more or less alternative belief system, like what DBZ said. This means that if we are going to hold on to our socially taught beliefs then we have to be prepared to disintegrate, assuming of course that we all have the subconscious belief set that is logically incompatible with what we're taught by the STS system and logically compatible with the STO system.
Just some thoughts FWIW.
obyvatel
The Living Force
[quote author=sedenion]
You see, this is why i don't like to speak about myself, myself is something i would prefer to forget and i live better without stir all that kind of consideration about "self"... "work on self", "true self", "destiny of the self", "self my ass"...
[/quote]
Maybe Sedenion does not indeed like to speak about himself. Yet, what is happening in different threads? He gets hauled into talking about himself. He repeats himself - he does not wish to read what others suggest, he does not need anyone's help, he does not ..... yet all these things keep happening. It seems very difficult to stay on topic in the threads where he posts and NOT make it about him.
I am wondering why? Maybe people here in the forum are determined to help him because they think he is really asking for help. Maybe we are all here because we feel "broken" or at the very least "need improvement" . Otherwise why would we talk about "work on self". So we project our brokenness or "needs improvement" on Sedenion who is not broken and does not wish for improvement. That is one possible way for the "projection matrix" to work. But I believe Sedenion read the forum guidelines when he signed up for a "self work" forum. Maybe he tries to
[quote author=Sedenion]
My intent here, is to explain how a belief systems that appear normal and neutral, can in fact being harmful.
[/quote]
show us our chosen folly. Sedenion admits that he has been to other forums and gets banned. I would say his way of interaction provokes certain type of responses from people - not only from "self work loving" people in this forum but others as well. Sedenion knows and appears to derive a certain enjoyment from this. Why would he do it otherwise in internet forums? Why would he come and join a forum that includes in its mission statement "work on self" and write what he does? That is in some ways the essence of trolling and he also admits that he is a troll, though a nice one.
Assuming he is not "just a troll", another possibility of how the projection matrix could work comes to mind. Sedenion's drawing out less than favorable responses from others and perhaps reveling in it could be a form of projective identification. It is a complex psychological phenomenon. In simple terms, one represses certain emotions and unconsciously projects them on others who are then prone to act in response to the projection.
Sedenion is not broken, not asking for help, not wishing to talk about himself -- yet others are forcing him to all this stuff. I wonder if a form of projective identification is at work here?
You see, this is why i don't like to speak about myself, myself is something i would prefer to forget and i live better without stir all that kind of consideration about "self"... "work on self", "true self", "destiny of the self", "self my ass"...
[/quote]
Maybe Sedenion does not indeed like to speak about himself. Yet, what is happening in different threads? He gets hauled into talking about himself. He repeats himself - he does not wish to read what others suggest, he does not need anyone's help, he does not ..... yet all these things keep happening. It seems very difficult to stay on topic in the threads where he posts and NOT make it about him.
I am wondering why? Maybe people here in the forum are determined to help him because they think he is really asking for help. Maybe we are all here because we feel "broken" or at the very least "need improvement" . Otherwise why would we talk about "work on self". So we project our brokenness or "needs improvement" on Sedenion who is not broken and does not wish for improvement. That is one possible way for the "projection matrix" to work. But I believe Sedenion read the forum guidelines when he signed up for a "self work" forum. Maybe he tries to
[quote author=Sedenion]
My intent here, is to explain how a belief systems that appear normal and neutral, can in fact being harmful.
[/quote]
show us our chosen folly. Sedenion admits that he has been to other forums and gets banned. I would say his way of interaction provokes certain type of responses from people - not only from "self work loving" people in this forum but others as well. Sedenion knows and appears to derive a certain enjoyment from this. Why would he do it otherwise in internet forums? Why would he come and join a forum that includes in its mission statement "work on self" and write what he does? That is in some ways the essence of trolling and he also admits that he is a troll, though a nice one.
Assuming he is not "just a troll", another possibility of how the projection matrix could work comes to mind. Sedenion's drawing out less than favorable responses from others and perhaps reveling in it could be a form of projective identification. It is a complex psychological phenomenon. In simple terms, one represses certain emotions and unconsciously projects them on others who are then prone to act in response to the projection.
Sedenion is not broken, not asking for help, not wishing to talk about himself -- yet others are forcing him to all this stuff. I wonder if a form of projective identification is at work here?
obyvatel said:
Maybe you pointed here something interesting, and this is a good first approach of how the "projection matrix" can work. However, things are complexe, there is many individuals with their own "projection matrices" here, all with their own idiosyncrasy. But a first thing is obvious: As you said, the belief system of this forum implicitely begin with the assumption that we are all broken (or, not ourselves, etc) and we all need help and "work on self"... that indeed induct a biases, that lead to some patterns. It is like creating a theater set (a bar, or church, or, any particular place) and putting ourselves into: once we are in the theater set, we feel the need to act to fit with the theater set: if the theater set is a bar, then you will see barmen, drunk guys, etc... if the theater set is a church, you will see preacher, pastor, devoted, etc... then you can see what happen with me, as a guy that comes in a theater set, and dont acts exactly to fit the theater set and others actors... it seem to act strangely, he don't have the good behavior, something is wrong... "why this guy is dancing ? we are not on a dance floor, there is no music, we are in a bar, why he don't go ask the barman for something to drink ? Is this guy crazy ?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuxWRI_tH3Y
For who want to help me, before the "projection matrix" process, you can think about this "theater set" problem... maybe, for some, giving help (or try to), is a way for them to "exist", to be "someone" in the "theater set"... a way to fit the "theater set". This is also a way to implictely force me to fit the "theater set", to act conformity with the "movie" we are playing... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2snTkaD64U
obyvatel said:
To be precise, sedenion don't care... sedenion was banned from many forum because he pushed for. Same for jobs... Sedenion can do what others expect to, sedenion can act accordingly some common rules, like, "do not provoke or criticize the hierarchy", yes, sedenion is able to apply some strategies to have no problems, to be viewed as a "good guy" by everyone, sedenion can be "transparent"... or, sedenion can act other way, be not strictly agreable to everyone, say what he have to say to the "hierarchy", doing things that he know that would generate conflicts, etc...
obyvatel said:
Hu... what a complex theory... The way to use "how others projects onto ourself" is way more simple: this happen all the time, so, what you have to do, is to sort what belongs to us and what belongs to others. With that, you can begin to know others with some accuracy (obviously, you need to know yourself with good accuracy)
obyvatel said:
Maybe things are much more simple... maybe sedenion is only here for some interactions, he sees an lighted house, and thinked "ho, let's go to the party, let's see who are these people, let's see how we can have some fun and win-win relationship in an unusual way, if this is possible". Obviously, there is some obstacles for sedenion: people are speaking all the time about books instead of their own experience and point of view (they acts like booksellers), they take things very seriously, so the "game-like" interaction is not easy (a clown trying to make people smile at a burial ceremony... what a chalenge), all posts of sedenion needs moderation approval to be published, because the moderation is paranoid or i don't know, sedenion is not a natural english speaker which reduce some "sensors" efficency... etc...
Divide by Zero
The Living Force
Sedenion, I see why I got pulled into this. Like you, I don't just follow the crowd.
Forums, work, here, etc.
BUT, your examples are really not something to be proud of. You seem to sound like you have the emotion, but lack the self-analysis of that emotional drive. I am judging of course, because you haven't shared openly, so I only go by shadows.
Forums: Well, I disagree on forums too- in a technical car mechanics forum I openly challenged the ideas of a highly rated mechanic. But, I did not get banned- even though he saw me as a threat, because you have to do it with respect and honesty.
Just to be banned sometimes gives people an ego. There were 3 or so people on that forum that kept coming back to brag how cool they were for being banned. Like you seem to do, they didn't really challenge specific details, just put things down in general. I don't think you have much to offer anymore. Sorry I expected more.
Jobs: You have to compromise, not everyone chooses to be aware. But, I also have a right to draw a line and not get pulled into drama or jealousy games.
But the key is to set limits, with a Healthy type of narcissism. That's why we said read psychology?!?! But no, you don't like to read or whatever.. I don't feel like trying to convince you, but you don't have to convince me- I can and have judged you already. At least I'm honest.
Remember on the other thread I score high on trusting. But if someone plays games with my trust they do get judged. That's "my way" and some of it checks out with BOOKS.
Forums, work, here, etc.
BUT, your examples are really not something to be proud of. You seem to sound like you have the emotion, but lack the self-analysis of that emotional drive. I am judging of course, because you haven't shared openly, so I only go by shadows.
Forums: Well, I disagree on forums too- in a technical car mechanics forum I openly challenged the ideas of a highly rated mechanic. But, I did not get banned- even though he saw me as a threat, because you have to do it with respect and honesty.
Just to be banned sometimes gives people an ego. There were 3 or so people on that forum that kept coming back to brag how cool they were for being banned. Like you seem to do, they didn't really challenge specific details, just put things down in general. I don't think you have much to offer anymore. Sorry I expected more.
Jobs: You have to compromise, not everyone chooses to be aware. But, I also have a right to draw a line and not get pulled into drama or jealousy games.
But the key is to set limits, with a Healthy type of narcissism. That's why we said read psychology?!?! But no, you don't like to read or whatever.. I don't feel like trying to convince you, but you don't have to convince me- I can and have judged you already. At least I'm honest.
Remember on the other thread I score high on trusting. But if someone plays games with my trust they do get judged. That's "my way" and some of it checks out with BOOKS.
Phill4
The Living Force
I don't see why it can't be a win-win situation.
A missunderstanding or just not liking to be demanded books doesn't have to be the end of it.
Quiet frankly, i have not read half, probably a lesser percentage of the material here which is ALOT, yes, and also i do, more often then not, share my experiences and try "personal experiments" as i mentioned to you in the jellybean thread. I felt i needed to clarify as someone whose been around that well, i didn't feel it as imposing because... I don't think you were accurate because... I believe you should consider this because....
The same way you have been clarifying, with what you think.
But there needs to be a middled ground, what do you think of the idea that what you call the projection matrix and my reference of belief center are two pieces of the same structure of perception?
The point with that is, we may be talking the same thing but in "different language",
The terminology is a form of language. And the problem with not understanding mutual terminology leads to worng assumptions, as you have experienced and i have experienced with you. Meaning, (ok that's not what i mean) type of replies.
The idea of the the believing syste and the work on the self mentioned earlier, indeed, needs clarification as part of a (personal experiment) and (personal experience) not some book,
The idea having personal biases in general IS a problem for me, and as you i have identified my problem an anxiety in origin, I don't know for you, but it has been aburden that i have done lots to get rid off, my anxiety taking all kinds of forms and seeing and perceiving things through a dark shade all the time..
Being this a problem of perception on my part, how can it not influence how i just have (what i call bad luck) etc etc.. isn't this subjective?
Subject only to how i see everything as bad?
Anyhow, suffice to say it consumed me but gave me clues as to the believing brain itself, the concept we call belief center, and all of that in actual practice.
Indeed it is a projection of how we perceive ourselves broken, as an instintive reaction to want to understand and question weather im right or wrong, 3 years ago, i would not have been able to hold a conversation with you as the anxiety levels were so bad i would spike off the roof, so when you say something like "you are preaching" i can help to ask "am i?" How am i? Why am i? If not why is this perception happening? If so how can i get a better understanding of the situation? Etc etc
That is happening inside me. And more.
In any case clues came when certain mayor events forced my out of my shell, and THEN, THEN i realized my "crooked" perspective had a full hand in twisting everything being perceived to made me see things through a dark glass. And how my belief system mechanism triggered all kinds of negative associations to self-fullfiling bad outcomes that were only existent in my mind... It is what i call an emotional bloackage, something somewhere i couldn't deal with. What is it??
This is yet another concept which is called emotional work, i search this method as means to comprehend why my perception was what i considered twisted and irrational in spite of intellect, and how to fix it.
How do our beliefs change events? Which is one of the questions of this thread, well there is certanly alot to say without getting to far into the details and just develope conceptual analisys in the conversation.
And this is pretty much a quick explanation of how and why i came to certain conclussions, through my own experiences.
On a side note, clinging on "they are forcing help uppon me", and all the other stuff argument, well, if you want to keep dancing alone, by all means. I'm not tangoing with the whole "they want to help me oh nooo!!!. I don't wanna be helped" stuff. You are tangoing alone with that in this bar Sorry... Your perception and your own biases make it look everytime as though it is the forum is this, the admin is this, the work is this and the rest, and you said it is your "unchangable" self, sooooo whose choice is that that YOU perceive things that way? Yours ofcourse as admitedly put.
Ok... We got the intro.. What now?
Are you ready to argue some more about how the mods "force me inmediate seclusion from my perception of self and identity" in every argument? Or ready to get some aswers about the projection matrix and the belief center?
as i have said before if you are ready to discuss any topic, as long as it is with some consistency, impartail and don't take the argument off a cliff , sure at least i am available.
A missunderstanding or just not liking to be demanded books doesn't have to be the end of it.
Quiet frankly, i have not read half, probably a lesser percentage of the material here which is ALOT, yes, and also i do, more often then not, share my experiences and try "personal experiments" as i mentioned to you in the jellybean thread. I felt i needed to clarify as someone whose been around that well, i didn't feel it as imposing because... I don't think you were accurate because... I believe you should consider this because....
The same way you have been clarifying, with what you think.
But there needs to be a middled ground, what do you think of the idea that what you call the projection matrix and my reference of belief center are two pieces of the same structure of perception?
The point with that is, we may be talking the same thing but in "different language",
The terminology is a form of language. And the problem with not understanding mutual terminology leads to worng assumptions, as you have experienced and i have experienced with you. Meaning, (ok that's not what i mean) type of replies.
The idea of the the believing syste and the work on the self mentioned earlier, indeed, needs clarification as part of a (personal experiment) and (personal experience) not some book,
The idea having personal biases in general IS a problem for me, and as you i have identified my problem an anxiety in origin, I don't know for you, but it has been aburden that i have done lots to get rid off, my anxiety taking all kinds of forms and seeing and perceiving things through a dark shade all the time..
Being this a problem of perception on my part, how can it not influence how i just have (what i call bad luck) etc etc.. isn't this subjective?
Subject only to how i see everything as bad?
Anyhow, suffice to say it consumed me but gave me clues as to the believing brain itself, the concept we call belief center, and all of that in actual practice.
Indeed it is a projection of how we perceive ourselves broken, as an instintive reaction to want to understand and question weather im right or wrong, 3 years ago, i would not have been able to hold a conversation with you as the anxiety levels were so bad i would spike off the roof, so when you say something like "you are preaching" i can help to ask "am i?" How am i? Why am i? If not why is this perception happening? If so how can i get a better understanding of the situation? Etc etc
That is happening inside me. And more.
In any case clues came when certain mayor events forced my out of my shell, and THEN, THEN i realized my "crooked" perspective had a full hand in twisting everything being perceived to made me see things through a dark glass. And how my belief system mechanism triggered all kinds of negative associations to self-fullfiling bad outcomes that were only existent in my mind... It is what i call an emotional bloackage, something somewhere i couldn't deal with. What is it??
This is yet another concept which is called emotional work, i search this method as means to comprehend why my perception was what i considered twisted and irrational in spite of intellect, and how to fix it.
How do our beliefs change events? Which is one of the questions of this thread, well there is certanly alot to say without getting to far into the details and just develope conceptual analisys in the conversation.
And this is pretty much a quick explanation of how and why i came to certain conclussions, through my own experiences.
On a side note, clinging on "they are forcing help uppon me", and all the other stuff argument, well, if you want to keep dancing alone, by all means. I'm not tangoing with the whole "they want to help me oh nooo!!!. I don't wanna be helped" stuff. You are tangoing alone with that in this bar Sorry... Your perception and your own biases make it look everytime as though it is the forum is this, the admin is this, the work is this and the rest, and you said it is your "unchangable" self, sooooo whose choice is that that YOU perceive things that way? Yours ofcourse as admitedly put.
Ok... We got the intro.. What now?
Are you ready to argue some more about how the mods "force me inmediate seclusion from my perception of self and identity" in every argument? Or ready to get some aswers about the projection matrix and the belief center?
as i have said before if you are ready to discuss any topic, as long as it is with some consistency, impartail and don't take the argument off a cliff , sure at least i am available.
Based on what he has written, Sedenion seems to think that it is a good idea, or a productive approach, to come to this forum (or any forum) and provide a 'critique' of the forum in general and what he assumes is the "belief system" of the forum and its members. He also feels competent to critique the intentions of the moderators in moderating his posts (that they are afraid, he thinks). So Sedenion takes the approach of the "outsider", under the (convenient for him) assumption that to do so is beneficial for everyone here because it challenges us and our "belief system".
These are all assumptions, and wrong assumptions at that.
For someone to accurately 'critique' a system such as exists on this forum, they would either have to honestly engage in or with that system for a protracted length of time in order to understand enough about it to critique it accurately, or they would have to already have gained sufficient knowledge of their own that would make an accurate and useful critique possible.
Anyone can critique anything as an 'outsider'. I can stand all day long nitpicking the work of a man digging a ditch, how he holds the shovel wrong, how he misses things, how he slouches when digging, thereby endangering his back etc. etc. But until I spend a long enough time beside him, working at the same task, most of my 'critiques' would be either wrong or useless (or both), and probably eventually rather annoying to the man digging the ditch.
But when it comes to this forum and the premises under which it operates - which involves the individual efforts and experiences of many different people attempting to understand themselves and the world - the idea of anyone not actually doing the same work being able to accurately 'critique' it is even more implausible.
The critiquing process in a system such as ours by necessity comes from the people actively engaged in the work. Members read books for example, not because they are mandated or "sold" but because they themselves are invested in pursuing their own work and actively seeking information that will help them in the work to which they have committed themselves.
When a book or theory is read or adopted by a member or members, they explore it, think about it, test out any principles and then report back on the usefulness or otherwise of the information. What is useful is defined here as whatever furthers understanding that makes the lives of individuals members objectively better, helping them to handle life's problems with more grace and success, improving their relationships. If Sedenion's interaction with others here so far is taken as symptomatic of his relationships in real life, then it seems he might have a lot of work to do in that area, IF he were interested in improving his relationships. If he is not, (which seems to be the case) then it would seem that he is a "wrong fit", for this forum.
So I think Sedenion came here with lots of assumptions, and he is disinclined to leave those assumptions "at the door", possibly because he likes those assumptions, they make him feel safe, because he is afraid of things that don't make him feel safe (he has said as much himself).
In this, he makes an error, because one of the core premises of the work of this forum is that the only way to improve one's understanding of ourselves and life in general, is to face fears, to face the uncomfortable, to give up, if necessary, some dearly held beliefs and assumptions in the interest of growth and progress. So basically, Sedenion seems to be in the
although he believes he can stick around and be entertained and have some "fun". We like fun, but we do not see it as an end in itself.
These are all assumptions, and wrong assumptions at that.
For someone to accurately 'critique' a system such as exists on this forum, they would either have to honestly engage in or with that system for a protracted length of time in order to understand enough about it to critique it accurately, or they would have to already have gained sufficient knowledge of their own that would make an accurate and useful critique possible.
Anyone can critique anything as an 'outsider'. I can stand all day long nitpicking the work of a man digging a ditch, how he holds the shovel wrong, how he misses things, how he slouches when digging, thereby endangering his back etc. etc. But until I spend a long enough time beside him, working at the same task, most of my 'critiques' would be either wrong or useless (or both), and probably eventually rather annoying to the man digging the ditch.
But when it comes to this forum and the premises under which it operates - which involves the individual efforts and experiences of many different people attempting to understand themselves and the world - the idea of anyone not actually doing the same work being able to accurately 'critique' it is even more implausible.
The critiquing process in a system such as ours by necessity comes from the people actively engaged in the work. Members read books for example, not because they are mandated or "sold" but because they themselves are invested in pursuing their own work and actively seeking information that will help them in the work to which they have committed themselves.
When a book or theory is read or adopted by a member or members, they explore it, think about it, test out any principles and then report back on the usefulness or otherwise of the information. What is useful is defined here as whatever furthers understanding that makes the lives of individuals members objectively better, helping them to handle life's problems with more grace and success, improving their relationships. If Sedenion's interaction with others here so far is taken as symptomatic of his relationships in real life, then it seems he might have a lot of work to do in that area, IF he were interested in improving his relationships. If he is not, (which seems to be the case) then it would seem that he is a "wrong fit", for this forum.
So I think Sedenion came here with lots of assumptions, and he is disinclined to leave those assumptions "at the door", possibly because he likes those assumptions, they make him feel safe, because he is afraid of things that don't make him feel safe (he has said as much himself).
In this, he makes an error, because one of the core premises of the work of this forum is that the only way to improve one's understanding of ourselves and life in general, is to face fears, to face the uncomfortable, to give up, if necessary, some dearly held beliefs and assumptions in the interest of growth and progress. So basically, Sedenion seems to be in the
although he believes he can stick around and be entertained and have some "fun". We like fun, but we do not see it as an end in itself.
sedenion said:
That looks like the attitude of someone who has no concern for other people, who are just things to be toyed with. No respect for them as individuals; just 100% infatuated with themselves and if them getting what they want is disruptive to the targets, so much the better as the dumb victims deserve it and they'll be all the better off for it.
A
Archaea
Guest
Why did sedenion stop posting? Did he get banned?
Also Joe posted this on the confidence thread:
What are these reasons, or what would one of these reasons be?
Also Joe posted this on the confidence thread:
What are these reasons, or what would one of these reasons be?
Divide by Zero
The Living Force
Sedenion could have just stopped posting. I mentioned in one of the threads how I've seen disruptive behavior and subsequent banning as "joyful" or giving credibility to such people.
Archaea, I'm not sure of the reasons now but I do recall some lurkers joining and causing issues.
Some were from the Vinny Bridges camp IIRC, trying to make the work look useless- as in their own black magic narcissism, they felt they figured it out, haha.
Since we're all working on our own issues, there have been times when certain pathological personalities come in and cause a ruckus when it comes to learning.
The moderators are not always perfect, but they sometimes spot devious behavior.
And then it's not always consciously devious. I like to think in terms of analogies.
Let's say you have the group as a homogeneous mixture that has a general property.
If you drop a certain reactive element or compound in the mixture, huge havoc can occur, merely by the huge difference.
Also, as Laura stated in the other thread, if you come in to a chess club and don't feel like playing chess- you are essentially disrespecting the club and trying to cause a disruption.
I'm not sure if you follow sott.net article comments, but there's certain people there too that like to brag about being at the edge of being banned- ready to blame sott. One such is "ned ludd" who half the time writes off topic rants that are shown as "wisdom" but are phrased in such a passive agressive manner that remind me of the riddler from Batman. He even joked about how smart his riddles are.
The traits of confident people thread has been helpful in helping me see something in dealing with such people. We're afraid to talk behind their backs as Laura has discovered as a program of "no rumors" despite them spreading rumors! We're afraid to be upfront about our own expectations and needs. We're afraid to be critical, because they cry like butterflies or pass the blame.
I shared some of the insights with a long time close friend who deals a lot more with pathological types- some in his own family. He's a wolf with a good heart and I feel emotionally compatible with- but his ideas are different.
I noticed after talking to him the other day that yes, it connects to belief!!!!
It's gaslighting/manipulation by those who sadly could have a proper self-esteem that acknowledges we all have faults and limits. If we refuse that and have a false belief, it feels the false ego- narcissism.
But with the proper understanding and confidence, it's a "belief" in healthy narcissism, which is dynamic and open to change.
Archaea, I'm not sure of the reasons now but I do recall some lurkers joining and causing issues.
Some were from the Vinny Bridges camp IIRC, trying to make the work look useless- as in their own black magic narcissism, they felt they figured it out, haha.
Since we're all working on our own issues, there have been times when certain pathological personalities come in and cause a ruckus when it comes to learning.
The moderators are not always perfect, but they sometimes spot devious behavior.
And then it's not always consciously devious. I like to think in terms of analogies.
Let's say you have the group as a homogeneous mixture that has a general property.
If you drop a certain reactive element or compound in the mixture, huge havoc can occur, merely by the huge difference.
Also, as Laura stated in the other thread, if you come in to a chess club and don't feel like playing chess- you are essentially disrespecting the club and trying to cause a disruption.
I'm not sure if you follow sott.net article comments, but there's certain people there too that like to brag about being at the edge of being banned- ready to blame sott. One such is "ned ludd" who half the time writes off topic rants that are shown as "wisdom" but are phrased in such a passive agressive manner that remind me of the riddler from Batman. He even joked about how smart his riddles are.
The traits of confident people thread has been helpful in helping me see something in dealing with such people. We're afraid to talk behind their backs as Laura has discovered as a program of "no rumors" despite them spreading rumors! We're afraid to be upfront about our own expectations and needs. We're afraid to be critical, because they cry like butterflies or pass the blame.
I shared some of the insights with a long time close friend who deals a lot more with pathological types- some in his own family. He's a wolf with a good heart and I feel emotionally compatible with- but his ideas are different.
I noticed after talking to him the other day that yes, it connects to belief!!!!
It's gaslighting/manipulation by those who sadly could have a proper self-esteem that acknowledges we all have faults and limits. If we refuse that and have a false belief, it feels the false ego- narcissism.
But with the proper understanding and confidence, it's a "belief" in healthy narcissism, which is dynamic and open to change.
Archaea said:
It's like the law of deviation from an aim or goal, the law of entropy, and how one has to act against the little Sedenion's in our own minds.
Any system that exists and functions has to be constantly maintained, otherwise it will gradually break down over time.
Gurdjieff talked about how a person can start out with an aim, but if they don't understand the law of octaves and the law of intervals (yes, cryptic), then they'll end up going in the completely opposite direction eventually, if they don't use shocks and efforts at the right opportunities. At best, they will just come full circle back to where they began.
If you're in a library, there are rules to follow. The people who go to the library are there to study in an atmosphere of peace and quiet. If a drunkard stumbles in, whiskey bottle in hand, looking for a good time and to act the fool and make people laugh, then the owners of the library have a right to maintain the peace and order of the environment to the benefit of those who are there to use the library in the way it was intended.
If you have a vision for your garden, you have to constantly be aware and awake to any little shoots that spring up through the soil of plants, trees, weeds, flowers that aren't where you want them and will upset the harmony. You nip them in the bud or pull them out from the roots, and you do this constantly, otherwise, if you just left it through some notion of all plants having the right to grow anywhere, your garden will turn into a jungle.
There's nothing inherently wrong with a jungle, but it's not what you wanted on your property.
In healthy boundary setting, no must mean NO. And if you don't demonstrate this, and you give an inch, then people will end up taking a mile. Through this process, you determine the difference between the kinds of people you have in your life who are good for you, and you prune out the ones that are bad for you.