Donald Trump wins 2016 US presidential election

Aragorn said:

1) How do they actually do the recount?

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I've wondered about this too. One would assume that buried somewhere deep within the programming, a suspicious algorithm could be found. However, if there's no paper trail, how do you determine what the votes actually were? Some kind of polling? What about privacy concerns? Maybe that's what Hillary is primarily concerned with, instead of flipping the election she wants to remove evidence that she was "assisted." Her campaign has been very subdued on the possibilities of this recount. Does Stein actually have access to the expertise to figure all of this out? She has really bet the farm on there being hacked machines, and if she can't deliver she might as well be a Hillary dupe because all she is doing is furthering their agenda of divisiveness.

Aragorn said:

Why didn't the Soros/Clinton gang start this fundraising for a recount themselves?

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I think the elite are very flabbergasted by the way things have turned out, and are kind of grasping at straws to find a magic bullet that works. Plan A was to rig the election for Hillary. A color revolution has been in the works for awhile now, but it had to be stepped up a bit to become a viable plan B. I'm sure Soros is a little uncomfortable about its possibilities of success as well. Coopting Jill Stein is a plan C or D scenario, and her outsider status does provide them with some cover to try another approach. Furthermore, if it doesn't work, and the original numbers are simply upheld, Stein just becomes an additional agent for chaos and can be rolled into plan B. I'm not even really sure that the funding was approved by his inner circle, it may have been just some "Hillary hopefuls" further down the chain. He may just be forced to react to emergent circumstances due to the complex web of interrelationships. I don't know; this movie we're watching is quite the thriller.

In another very interesting twist we have this

realDonaldTrump said:

In addition to winning the Electoral College in a landslide, I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally

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This is the first time he has spoken of voter fraud since he won, that I am aware of. Since he's probably right I wonder if he's going to make any effort to prove this or if he has too many other important things to do. This kind of manipulation was probably predominantly in California. If he follows through, it would really go a long way to further eliminating the credibility of the American political establishment and take a lot of wind out of the sails of the Purple Revolution. If he won the popular vote as well as the electoral college by a landslide, what are Soros' poor revolutionaries going to do? I'm hoping he gets involved in the next episode!

If he won the popular vote as well as the electoral college by a landslide, what are Soros' poor revolutionaries going to do? I'm hoping he gets involved in the next episode!

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I just hope that, if this recount gets legs, Trump's people will also be present to keep the recount impartial. It would be too easy to find phantom Hillary ballots squirreled away in closets somewhere.

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Breaking News
From: CNN Breaking News <CNNBreakingNews@mail.cnn.com>
To: no-reply@siteservices.cnn.com


President-elect Donald Trump won Michigan's 16 electoral votes, state officials say, bringing the final electoral tally to Trump 306, Hillary Clinton 232.

Clinton currently leads the popular vote by more than 2 million, and that margin is expected to grow.


----------------------------------------------
Get complete coverage of breaking news on CNN TV, CNN.com and CNN Mobile.
Watch CNN live or On Demand from your computer or mobile device using CNNgo.
----------------------------------------------

Laura said:

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Breaking News
From: CNN Breaking News <CNNBreakingNews@mail.cnn.com>
To: no-reply@siteservices.cnn.com


President-elect Donald Trump won Michigan's 16 electoral votes, state officials say, bringing the final electoral tally to Trump 306, Hillary Clinton 232.

Clinton currently leads the popular vote by more than 2 million, and that margin is expected to grow.


----------------------------------------------
Get complete coverage of breaking news on CNN TV, CNN.com and CNN Mobile.
Watch CNN live or On Demand from your computer or mobile device using CNNgo.
----------------------------------------------

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Thanks for the heads up. I thought I was crazy as I went to the CNN site and could not find the story. I changed the Edition at the top from US to International, and there it was, on the first page.

Aragorn said:

1) How do they actually do the recount?

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The recount petition filed by Stein in Wisconsin sheds a little light on this I think. You can read it here:
https://www.scribd.com/document/332302650/2016-11-25-JS

Here are some selected quotes:
"Wisconsin uses two forms of electronic voting machines--optical scan and direct-recording (DRE)--both of which are susceptible to compromise."

"A hand count of paper ballots, including those used in optical scan machines, and a review of the paper record from DRE machines are necessary to make this determination..."

I didn't think "voting machines" HAD a "paper record"... I thought that was one of the objections to them (and as I understand it, Stein has been an outspoken critic of the machines). But since she is requesting it, they must have one?

I was generally inclined to think her motivation had to do with electronic voting and the legitimacy of our elections in general, ie, to drive change for future elections and not so much about overturning this one. But now I'm not so sure.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-27/democrats-real-strategy-launching-recounts

Is This The Democrats' Real Strategy In Launching Recounts?
by Tyler Durden

One theory is that Stein is simply hoping to disrupt the electoral college process to push the 2016 election into the hands Congress while drawing the legitimacy of Trump's presidency into question.

As Edward Foley, an expert in election law at Moritz College of Law at Ohio State University, pointed out to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, electors from around the country have to meet by December 19th to cast their electoral college votes. To the extent recounts in WI, MI and PA have not been completed by that time, which experts assign a high probability that they will not, there is a chance that the electoral votes from those three states wouldn't be counted leaving neither candidate with the required electoral votes to win the presidency (electoral count would be Trump 260 versus Hillary 232).

If the electoral college process fails to select a President then the election would be left in the hands of Congress to decide. Given that the Senate and House are both controlled by Republicans, in theory they would then choose Trump/Pence, though in this election cycle nothing is a certainty. Moreover, even if Trump/Pence are chosen, the whole process of being appointed by Congress, combined with a loss of the popular vote, would then cast a dark shadow over their administration.

Wisconsin's recount will likely begin late next week, once the state has tallied a cost estimate and received payment from Stein's campaign, said Michael Haas, administrator of the Wisconsin Elections Commission.

Political scientist Barry Burden, the director of the Elections Research Center at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, said it would be extremely difficult to complete the recount on time.

"You may potentially have the state electoral votes at stake if it doesn't get done by then," said Haas.

A lawyer with Stein's campaign has said it wants the recount done by hand. That would take longer and require a judge's order, Haas said.

Perhaps the most important deadline is Dec. 19, when electors around the country must meet to cast their Electoral College votes, said Edward Foley, an expert in election law at Moritz College of Law at Ohio State University.

"That is a hard deadline and if a state were to miss that deadline, it would be technically in jeopardy of not having its electoral votes counted," he said.

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Of course, if this theory is even partially true then it's extremely disturbing on a variety of levels. That a person with absolutely no standing. in terms of personal damages, and no presentation of credible evidence of wrongdoing could unilaterally disrupt a presidential election is not only a failure of Stein's personal character but it's a failure of our election rules and procedures that such reckless behavior would be permitted.

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Wisconsin denied the hand count today, but Stein has threatened to sue, which I presume could drag the whole thing out even longer and making deadlines even more difficult to reach? Even if this is not her intent, she has to be aware that her requests carry this as a risk?

Pashalis said:

Laura said:

griffin said:

Remember, in the 2000 election, a bitter legal controversy over recounting votes in Florida moved to the US Supreme Court, where the bare majority of five Republican justices selected George W. Bush to be president. If recounts can put the election outcome in question, something similar might happen.

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And god help the world if that demon becomes president after being shown she isn't wanted... oy.

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Indeed!

Quite interesting development in regards to Jill Stein and that recount issue and to what it might lead to.

There are several scenarios I can think of, for why Jill did what she did there. But first off, it is important to notice that in those states, where the recount should take place now (and Jill pushed for), Trump won, and if the recount shows another result (aka. Killary "won"), that could lead to Killary actually "winning" the precedency (several articles point that out). Are we supposed to think that Jill wasn't aware that this move can lead to exactly that? Is she really that clueless? We have seen the same thing in the Bush/Gore election, where at the end Bush won, even though Gore likely won the real election.

So here are a couple of scenarios for why Jill might have done that:
(...)
Just some ideas.

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Yeah, these are plausible possibilities. There may be another one - Jill is aware that the votes were manipulated and wants to expose the corrupt system that led to this outcome. She could merely be using the Hillary bandwagon to achieve this purpose - no friends in politics, I wouldn't think.

Either way, as others have already mentioned, this recount business is rather puzzling. And methinks there is a slight chance of the "man behind the curtain" becoming exposed as a result of this exercise. Sure, that female psychopath could get back in - but maybe, just maybe, the outcome will be unexpectedly different.

What if the recount reveals even more votes for Trump? Or that absentee votes were used to falsify the election results after the fact? Could that happen? The submission does, in fact, allege manipulation of absentee votes by "foreign operators" - what if "domestic operators" made a mistake?

On the other hand, this could be an opportunity to game the votes even further and swing the pendulum towards HK. Though maybe this is where the fun will start - oh, the possibilities here! Guess we will have to wait and see on that one.

Personally, I don't think that the recount will make much difference - it may make the matters worse for the Clintons, if anything. It is certainly fascinating to observe, though.

Some more ideas.

Lawyers for Donald Trump have formally complained about the state of Michigan’s pending recount of votes.

Trump Lawyers Object to Vote Recount in US State of Michigan, Halting Process
https://sputniknews.com/us/201612021048078981-trump-layers-halt-michigan-recount/

Lawyers for Donald Trump have formally complained about the state of Michigan’s pending recount of votes from the US presidential election last month, casting doubt as to whether the process will occur, the Michigan secretary of state’s office announced in a press release.

“The Michigan Bureau of Elections today received an objection from representatives of Donald J. Trump regarding the presidential election recount that was filed yesterday by Green Party nominee Jill Stein,” Thursday’s release stated. Under state law, the elections bureau must address the Trump complaint within five days, and it is scheduled to consider a resolution on Friday, according to the release. If the bureau rejects the complaint, the recount will begin on the second business day following the decision, the release explained. Accepting the complaint would mean the recount won’t happen.

Because of the Trump team’s objection, a recount that had been scheduled for Friday to Sunday in some of Michigan’s 83 counties has been postponed, according to the secretary of state’s office.

Green Party candidate Jill Stein formally requested on Wednesday that Michigan undertake a recount of votes cast for the November 8 election, although the New York City doctor received fewer than 51,000 votes, or about 1 percent of the statewide total. In addition to Michigan, Stein and her party have launched donor-backed campaigns for recounts in the states of Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, both of which Trump also won. If the results for Trump remain intact in all three states, as is expected, the incoming president would have 306 votes in the Electoral College, compared with 232 for Clinton. A total of 270 electoral votes are needed to win the presidency.

Trump won in the state by about 10,700 votes over Hillary Clinton

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The Trump Campaign Will Try to Block the Green Party’s Recount Effort in Michigan
http://time.com/4588614/trump-campaign-block-green-party-recount-michigan/

(LANSING, Mich.) — Michigan’s elections board on Friday will consider President-elect Donald Trump’s request to block a hand recount of all 4.8 million ballots cast in the state he won by about 10,700 votes over Hillary Clinton.

Lawyers for the Trump campaign argued Thursday that Green Party nominee Jill Stein, a “bottom-dwelling candidate,” cannot seek the expensive, time-consuming recount because she was not “aggrieved” to the point where potential miscounting of votes could have cost her the election. She garnered just 1 percent in Michigan.

They also said in their objection that Stein waited until the last minute to file her recount petition Wednesday, making it impossible to finish by a Dec. 13 deadline.

Stein countered that Trump’s “cynical efforts to delay the recount and create unnecessary costs for taxpayers are shameful and outrageous.” His objections suspended the planned Friday start of the recount until next week.

A recount is already underway in Wisconsin, which Trump won by roughly 22,000 votes and where the first reporting of numbers was expected Friday. In Pennsylvania, a hearing was scheduled for Monday on Stein’s push to secure a court-ordered statewide recount, a legal maneuver that has never been tried, according to one of the attorneys who filed it.

Recounts were not expected to flip nearly enough votes to change the outcome in any of the states.

The Wisconsin recount doesn’t carry nearly the same drama as the Florida recount in 2000, when the outcome of the presidential race between Al Gore and George W. Bush hung in the balance.

“This is certainly not Bush v. Gore,” said Mike Haas, Wisconsin’s chief elections administrator.

Even so, the campaigns for Trump, Clinton and Stein all had observers spread throughout the state to watch the process.

The recount will have to move quickly. The federal deadline to certify the vote to avoid having the fate of Wisconsin’s 10 electoral votes decided by Congress is Dec. 13. Even if that were to happen, the votes would almost certainly go to Trump, since Republicans control both chambers of Congress.

Stein has argued, without evidence, that irregularities in the votes in all three states suggest that there could have been tampering with the vote, perhaps through a well-coordinated, highly complex cyberattack.

“Verifying the vote through this recount is the only way to confirm that every vote has been counted securely and accurately and is not compromised by machine or human error, or by tampering or hacking,” Stein said.

Stein’s critics, including the Wisconsin Republican Party, contend that she is a little-known candidate who is merely trying to raise her profile while raising millions of dollars.

The Wisconsin recount was estimated to cost about $3.9 million. Stein paid $973,250 for the requested recount in Michigan. Michigan’s Republican secretary of state, Ruth Johnson, has said a recount could cost $5 million total.

Insanely Funny Trump Christmas Parody “Most Wonderful Time in 8 Years”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl2ryKu2UVA (3:40 min.)

Published on Dec 1, 2016

Goodbye Obama! This wonderful, hilarious Christmas song parody says it all! - - Based on a song Andy Williams made famous "It's the Most Wonderful Time of the Year" Hillary makes an appearance as the Abominable Snowman in the end... Singer, songwriter and Entertainer Dana Kamide wrote the lyrics and performed the lead vocals and produced the video. Democrats got Shellacked in last 3 elections. Yet Obama and the media still trying to make up stories why Donald Trump was elected instead of admit that for the last 8-10 years their policies have FAILED AMERICA! Here are the lyrics:

It's the most wonderful time in 8 years
Yet some kids are protesting
while Trump fans investing their time with good cheer
Sing It's the most wonderful time in 8 years

It's the hap-happiest voting season of all
With each staff member Trump picks, Democrats up to their old tricks …Just trashing them all
but It's the hap- happiest election season of all

There’ll be one party hosting All three branches toasting
but how low now will the press go
There'll spin misguided stories Trying to steal Trump’s glory
from a playbook written, long long ago

It's the most wonderful time in 8 years
There'll be much more enjoyment a lot less unemployment
Cuz Trump will be near
It's the most wonderful time in 8 years (go up)

Hillary’s party’s not hosing they’re no longer toasting,
Beyonce, Kanye, Cop Killers, Racists and the Muslim Brotherhood
They ignored true stories of Hillary who wasn’t sorry
for her crimes now and long ago

Now It's the most wonderful time in 8 Years
We’ll deport all the criminals, Taxes will be minimal
Bad trade deals disappear
It's the most wonderful time
yes the most wonderful time
Oh the most wonderful time… in 8 years!

Looks like Jill may be abandoning the recount effort in Pennsylvania... She's set to make an announcement on Monday. It seems odd it was stopped over $1,000,000 when she's raised around $7,000,000?

_http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2016/12/03/green-party-drops-statewide-pennsylvania-recount/#.WENPLDBX8bI.twitter

HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP/KDKA) – Green Party-backed voters dropped a court case Saturday night that had sought to force a statewide recount of Pennsylvania’s Nov. 8 presidential election, won by Republican Donald Trump, in what Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein had framed as an effort to explore whether voting machines and systems had been hacked and the election result manipulated.

The decision came two days before a court hearing was scheduled in the case. Saturday’s court filing to withdraw the case said the Green Party-backed voters who filed the case “are regular citizens of ordinary means” and cannot afford the $1 million bond ordered by the court by 5 p.m. Monday. However, Green Party-backed efforts to force recounts and analyze election software in scattered precincts were continuing.

Stein planned to make an announcement about the Pennsylvania recount Monday outside the Trump Tower in New York.

The court case had been part of an effort spearheaded by Stein to force recounts in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, three states with a history of backing Democrats for president that were narrowly and unexpectedly won by Trump over Democrat Hillary Clinton.

A recount began Thursday in Wisconsin, while a recount could begin next week in Michigan. Trump’s victory in Pennsylvania was particularly stunning: the state’s fifth-most electoral votes are a key stepping stone to the White House, and no Republican presidential candidate had captured the state since 1988.

Stein had said the purpose of Pennsylvania’s recount was to ensure “our votes are safe and secure,” considering hackers’ probing of election targets in other states and hackers’ accessing of the emails of the Democratic National Committee and several Clinton staffers. U.S. security officials have said they believe Russian hackers orchestrated the email hacks, something Russia has denied.

Stein’s lawyers, however, had offered no evidence of hacking in Pennsylvania’s election. They sought unsuccessfully in recent days to get various counties to allow a forensic examination of their election system software.

Lawyers for Trump and the state Republican Party argued there was no evidence, or even an allegation, that tampering with Pennsylvania’s voting systems had occurred. Further, Pennsylvania law does not allow a court-ordered recount, they argued, and a lawyer for the Green Party had acknowledged that the effort was without precedent in Pennsylvania.

A statement from the Pennsylvania GOP sent Saturday night read, in part:

“The filing of a discontinuance of the Election Contest by Jill Stein’s petitioners tonight is a recognition that their Election Contest was completely without merit, and meant solely for purposes to delay the Electoral College vote in Pennsylvania for President-Elect Trump…Candidate Jill Stein’s allegations created the false allusion that some unidentified foreign government hacked our state’s voting systems when absolutely no such proof existed. We believe that she always knew that she had no such proof.”

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An updated count Friday by state election officials shows Trump’s lead shrinking to 49,000 from 71,000 over Democrat Hillary Clinton. Trump’s lead is 0.8 percent, down from over 1 percent, out of 6 million votes cast. That’s shy of Pennsylvania’s 0.5 percent trigger for an automatic statewide recount.

(TM and © Copyright 2015 CBS Radio Inc. and its relevant subsidiaries. CBS RADIO and EYE Logo TM and Copyright 2015 CBS Broadcasting Inc. Used under license. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.)

Well, so much for abandoning the PA recount. Instead, she's taking the dropped state case to federal court. She says, "The people deserve answers." What people? I didn't know anyone took a recount in PA as a serious question. Oh, she's probably referring to the Killary supporters who have given her more money in a few weeks than she could raise in an entire campaign. And then she turns around and says, "the Green Party-backed voters who filed the case (are) "regular citizens of ordinary means" who cannot afford the $1 million bond." Gimme a fricking break. She's really turned out to be a disappointment.

Jill Stein to take Pennsylvania recount to federal courts
_http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/12/04/stein-drops-state-case-pennsylvania-recount-aims-federal-court/94946560/

A Green Party-backed campaign will take its fight for a statewide recount of Pennsylvania’s votes in the presidential election to the federal courts after it dropped a case in the state courts.

“We are committed to this fight to protect the civil and voting rights of all Americans,” Jonathan Abady, lead counsel for the recount campaign, said in a statement. “Over the past several days, it has become clear that the barriers to verifying the vote in Pennsylvania are so pervasive and that the state court system is so ill-equipped to address this problem that we must seek federal court intervention.”

Green Party-backed recount efforts continued in some precincts over the weekend, despite the state case being dropped.

The recount campaign, led by Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein, cited financial difficulties when deciding to withdraw the case. The court filing described the Green Party-backed voters who filed the case "regular citizens of ordinary means" who cannot afford the $1 million bond ordered by the court by Monday, the Associated Press reported.

Instead, the campaign plans to push for the statewide recount in federal court on Monday, demanding a recount on constitutional grounds.

On Saturday night, Stein tweeted that "On Monday, I will escalate #Recount2016 in PA and file to demand a statewide recount on constitutional grounds. The people deserve answers."

Donald Trump, who won the electoral vote on Election Day, has a 70,638-vote lead in Pennsylvania.

Stein claims electronic voting systems are at risk of hacking in Pennsylvania, as well as Michigan and Wisconsin, but she hasn't provided evidence.

The Republican Party pushed back against the state court case, asking the court to dismiss it. Lawrence Tabas, a GOP lawyer, claimed the recount campaign is only interested in putting off the Electoral College vote for President-elect Donald Trump, the Associated Press reported.

It's not clear what Stein's motive is in pushing for a recount, but she and her supporters have inched closer to their $7 million fundraising goal, though at the time Stein believed the Pennsylvania recount would cost $500,000, excluding the $2-3 million in legal fees. Stein and her supporters have raised more than $6.9 million for recount efforts in the three states.

Pennsylvania's automatic statewide recount trigger is 0.5%, according to the Associated Press. Stein drew less than 1% of the votes cast.

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I cannot believe how many so-called spiritual seekers and researchers here support Trump, a man that epitomizes SERVICE TO SELF and during his campaign scapegoated racial, religious and sexual minorities, plus demeaning half the human race (women). I am simply appalled. Nothing that Hillary has done can compare to the damage Trump will inflict on the USA. Have you seen his cabinet choices? A white supremacist, Wall Street Insiders, including a Goldman Sachs executive, a woman to head public education who does not believe in public education nor child labor laws. Every single one hates gay people and has campaigned against their equal rights under the US Constitution in the past. Tony Perkins (Family Research Institute) is a recognized HATE GROUP. A retired general who wants war with Iran. OMG, people! How can any of this be possibly construed as a spiritual choice?

"Bringing jobs back to the USA". Yes, by paying Carrier 7 MILLION dollars of your tax money, he saved 800 jobs. So any company that wants a free handout from the government may simply threaten Trump that they will leave unless they get a similar deal at our expense. THIS is what you wanted? He plans to just bribe companies to stay? Why hasn't he brought back his own manufacturing jobs to the USA? Why hasn't his lovely wife brought back her manufacturing jobs to the USA?

Listen, this is an area where I could feel such anger and acrimony over such short sighted voting that I would leave. Since I want to be here more than 2 days, I will leave this very disappointing thread. I honestly thought Laura's "gang" would be more aware.

lilies said:

Laura said:

[..]
We could very well be heading into a Hitler re-run with the USA as the Fourth Reich. That only means a period of niceness followed by horror. With Hillary, we prolly would have faced atomic bombs all over the place from Russia PDQ.
[..]

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When events turned and everybody tried to explain the election results I had a similar hunch:
- Calm with Trump creating jobs and building a wall, building a big military, then going Hitler.

That future-scenario __again__ is another place, where I don't want to go and possibly I'm not alone, so people, who want a nicer world might navigate consciously and unconsciously toward making choices - at critical junctions in the timeline - that will result in the whole tribe ending up in a better, mitigated version of "Trump-going-Hitler" timeline branch. Or just skillfully avoiding that all-together and ending up in a "Trump-becoming-a-Little-Putin" timeline.

Looking at the history - say from 1900 (A.D.) - and consequences this group experienced, there were chances that Hitler and his cronies get assassinated, attempts were made by rebel groups. It is possible that the worst-case "Trump-goes-Hitler"-scenario will derail by these types of small attempts succeeding: could be anything, a people-power media event, *a successful neighborhood watch movement gaining lot of traction pulling the flow of history elsewhere, where we experience a little bit better reality, than the worst case scenario we were consciously wanting to avoid.

This new reality - the 'No-Hillary'-one we are in now - seems to be acceptable enough for a lessons-learning environment that also gives us better tools and energy and power to build a better world. By successfully navigating these timelines we might be creating that New World. Little by little.

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*DAPL protesters proclaim victory as pipeline forced to change route – statement
https://www.rt.com/usa/369177-dapl-pipeline-lake-rerouted/

Putin: Trump is smart, will soon be aware of different level of responsibility
https://www.rt.com/news/369143-putin-trump-smart-responsibility/

[..]Attempts to create a unipolar world have not succeeded. We are living in a different dimension. [..]

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Indeed! Putin's words put me in a jubilant mood. Lets pull at the oars so we gradually sail toward Putin's goal and our dream through the branches of timeline(s), until we reach a version, where our (un)elected officials will have had to practice on themselves Fulcanelli's amazing Mellowing of Manners. Where such People Power victories gain a lot of traction.

chandlersdad said:

I cannot believe how many so-called spiritual seekers and researchers here support Trump, a man that epitomizes SERVICE TO SELF and during his campaign scapegoated racial, religious and sexual minorities, plus demeaning half the human race (women). I am simply appalled.

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Those of us who are not immediately bashing Trump's election are doing so for a number of reasons. First, the election of Killary would have been very, very bad, much worse than the election of Trump. Second, we realize that what a politician says during a campaign very often does not epitomize what he actually does once elected. See Obama, Barack. So there is that to consider, which means that I, at least, have a wait-and-see attitude when it comes to Trump. The guy hasn't even stepped in office yet to make a decision, and already precious liberal snowflakes are freaking out. It's a little ridiculous.

chandlersdad said:

Nothing that Hillary has done can compare to the damage Trump will inflict on the USA.

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Here I would vehemently disagree with you. This woman is a psychopath. Did you not see what happened when she was secretary of state? Did you not see her cackling like a demon over the outright murder of Gaddafi? Did you not hear her campaign promises to establish a no fly zone over Syria, effectively creating the same scenario which led to the indiscriminate bombing of the Libyan people and the destruction of their infrastructure? Her desire for war would have led to WW3 and probably nuclear war with Russia. Plus, she and her husband have literally left a trail of bodies in their wake in their psychopathic lust for power and money. Anyone even faintly aware of her and her true history would know that her election as president would have led to terrible suffering for many, many people. The same thing could happen under Trump, but he has no history. We knew where we were going with Killary. With Trump, the future is a little less up in the air. No one is able to compare what someone with a history running the American foreign policy would do versus someone who never has. On top of that, Trump has talked about making changes to foreign policy that actually make sense and would be good for the world! So what's wrong with being patient and not immediately freaking out over something that hasn't even happened yet?

chandlersdad said:

Have you seen his cabinet choices? A white supremacist, Wall Street Insiders, including a Goldman Sachs executive, a woman to head public education who does not believe in public education nor child labor laws. Every single one hates gay people and has campaigned against their equal rights under the US Constitution in the past. Tony Perkins (Family Research Institute) is a recognized HATE GROUP. A retired general who wants war with Iran. OMG, people! How can any of this be possibly construed as a spiritual choice?

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Who's construing this as a "spiritual choice"? I think the majority of forum members who aren't completely freaking out over Trump's election are doing so because they are being level-headed and are momentarily basking in the reality that the people of the US chose a different reality than the one Killary was going to give us.

In regards to Trump's Cabinet, I thought Paul Craig Roberts wrote a very level-headed and wise article about that subject recently. I think most people would do well to heed his words and not do what you are essentially doing, flying into hysterics over something that has not even come to pass yet:

Paul Craig Roberts: Trump's appointment decisions deserve a chance to prove themselves

We do not know what the appointments mean except, as Trump discovered once he confronted the task of forming a government, that there is no one but insiders to appoint. For the most part that is correct. Outsiders are a poor match for insiders who tend to eat them alive. Ronald Reagan's California crew were a poor match for George H.W. Bush's insiders. The Reagan part of the government had a hell of a time delivering results that Reagan wanted.

[...]

Does Trump's choice of Steve Mnuchin as Treasury Secretary mean that Goldman Sachs will again be in charge of US economic policy? Possibly, but we do not know. We will have to wait and see. Mnuchin left Goldman Sachs 14 years ago. He has been making movies in Hollywood and started his own investment firm. Many people have worked for Goldman Sachs and the New York Banks who have become devastating critics of the banks. Read Nomi Prins' books and visit Pam Martens website, Wall Street on Parade. My sometimes coauthor Dave Kranzler is a former Wall Streeter.

[...]

What about the hot-headed generals announced as National Security Advisor and Secretary of Defense? Both seem to be death on Iran, which is stupid and unfortunate. However, keep in mind that Gen. Flynn is the one who blew the whistle on the Obama regime for rejecting the advice of the DIA and sending ISIS to overthrow Assad. Flynn said that ISIS was a "willful decision" of the Obama administration, not some unexpected event.

And keep in mind that Gen. Mattis is the one who told Trump that torture does not work, which caused Trump to back off his endorsement of torture.

So both of these generals, as bad as they may be, are an improvement on what came before. Both have shown independence from the neoconservative line that supports ISIS and torture.

[...]

The problem with beating up on an administration before it exists and has a record is that the result can be that the administration becomes deaf to all criticism. It is much better to give the new president a chance and to hold his feet to the fire on the main issues.

Trump alone among all the presidential candidates said that he saw no point in fomenting conflict with Russia. Trump alone questioned NATO's continued existence 25 years after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Trump alone said that he would work to bring middle class jobs back to America.

And Trump said that he would enforce immigration laws. Is this racism or is this a defense of citizenship? How is the US a country if there is no difference between illegal aliens and citizens?

Commentators of all stripes are making a mistake to damn in advance the only government that campaigned on peace with Russia, restoring middle class jobs, and respect for the country's borders. We should seize on these promises and hold the Trump administration to them. We should also work to make Trump aware of the serious adverse consequences of environmental degradation.

Who is blowing these opportunities? Trump? Mnuchin? Flynn? Mattis?

Or us?

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chandlersdad said:

"Bringing jobs back to the USA". Yes, by paying Carrier 7 MILLION dollars of your tax money, he saved 800 jobs. So any company that wants a free handout from the government may simply threaten Trump that they will leave unless they get a similar deal at our expense. THIS is what you wanted? He plans to just bribe companies to stay? Why hasn't he brought back his own manufacturing jobs to the USA? Why hasn't his lovely wife brought back her manufacturing jobs to the USA?

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Dude, he hasn't even been sworn in as president. How could he possibly bring back manufacturing jobs, or enact any other kind of change yet? Why can't you at least wait until he's president and actually DOES something before freaking out? I would think someone that reads this forum would have a little more cognitive ability to actually THINK and not fly off the handle about things which have not even come to pass yet. It seems your "anger and acrimony" over his election as president has left you unable to think in anything other than black and white terms on this issue, a problem that seems endemic among many other liberal Americans who just can't fathom not getting what they wanted in the presidential election.