Jordan Peterson: Gender Pronouns and Free Speech War

obyvatel said:
That message is quite practical. This is the same message that Carl Jung gave. Jung studied Asian cultures and had a good understanding of them. He warned against the tendency in the west to uncritically integrate customs and practices from eastern cultures because the western culture had become stagnant and diseased. The revivification of a culture is best accomplished organically through home-grown heroes. It is important for such heroes to have a broader understanding of reality and learn from other cultures, but not transplant them. The reason for this is the nature of the collective unconscious that operates at the social level. And this is as true for the west as it is for the east. Pathocratic cultures in Asia cannot be reformed and revivified through a whole-sale import of western social mores and values.

Very interesting. This may also shed some light on the debate about multiculturalism, which is another darling of the liberals. Maybe the demand to let people in to our culture with a different cultural background, and the assumption that this is somehow good and will in itself revivify our own culture, is another illusion: instead of bravely standing up within our culture, we again cry for external factors to make things right again, as if an influx of immigrants will somehow lead to 'more tolerance'. What if real tolerance is hard work, embracing the truth and protect those who speak it? Would those who argue in favor of multiculturalism and 'cultural mixture' also stand up, at the risk of losing their own reputation and being attacked, for Jordan Peterson and his right to refuse the human right tribunals and Gender nonsense? It doesn't seem so.

Liberal thinking is full of contradictions, which ties in to what Łobaczewski called the hysterization cycle, where a society completely loses its psychological knowledge and gets lost. For example, they argue in favor of Muslim immigration, thus incorporating people with a cultural background that goes against their own values such as equality of women and men etc.; they preach tolerance while persecuting people with different opinions like Peterson etc. It's a complete, illogical mess.

We don't solve our problems in the West by crying for external factors to do the job, be it immigrants, multiculturalism, or changes in the law to make society more tolerant/egalitarian - this has the opposite effect. Western society needs to be strengthened from within by enacting the hero archetype and focusing on its own cultural identity and what to make of it. I guess this is one of the reasons why Trump's message "America first" resonated so powerfully with people.

This is all very fascinating and challenging for me as someone who was socialized in the die-hard liberal milieu.
 
[quote author= luc]Very interesting. This may also shed some light on the debate about multiculturalism, which is another darling of the liberals. [/quote]

If the 'Liberal' status quo ever sincerely cared about integration. Why not stop the House of Saud from financing their death cult of Wahhabism throughout Europe and elsewhere.

Why covertly recruit deluded youngsters to carry out false flag attacks.

They preach tolerance, but covertly nourish radicalism. Just shows that the 'Liberal' agenda doesn't care about multiculturalism.


They don't preach 'tolerance' in favor of multiculturalism. They preach 'tolerance' in favor of their own evil social engineering plan.

Which means that ultimately anyone who will refuse their sick open asylum of crazies and pedophilia paradise will be marked as 'intolerant' and 'racist' and if needs be removed from society. Either by detention or through death.


As I see it, there are different timelines possible and it remains to be seen which one will succeed. The Extreme left and Extreme right both feed each other and while they do the moderate middle keeps fading away.

Besides if Dutch MSM tells me anything, the only good Muslims out there these days seems to be the 'moderate' opposition in Syria.
 
[quote author= luc]We don't solve our problems in the West by crying for external factors to do the job, be it immigrants, multiculturalism, or changes in the law to make society more tolerant/egalitarian - this has the opposite effect. Western society needs to be strengthened from within by enacting the hero archetype and focusing on its own cultural identity and what to make of it.[/quote]

I think I missed your point luc. You meant the average Liberal? Not the status quo variety?

Well, if you want multiculturalism to succeed I think we have to look at Russia for example, Putin succeeded in defeating radical Islam (Chechen–Russian conflict) because he knew that his best allies is the Muslim community itself whose vast majority is also against barbarism. That's why he appointed people like Ramzan Kadyrov.

Putin defeated radical Islam because he allied with the Muslim community. Both fight extremism together because together they share the same value's of true tolerance.


Now if you look at the West, Whenever the Muslim community contacts the authorities about radicalization between their mids, nothing happens.

For example, many months ago in the Netherlands Muslim families sued the Dutch Government because they warned the authorities over and over that they lost control over their children who where planning to join ISIS, Begging if the authorities could stop them. The police and secret service did nothing with this information or so was told.

(I bet the secret service marked them as potential usefull idiots to carry out attack)


Multiculturalism is in jeopardy whenever radicalisation is allowed to spread. And in that case even nourished. And if you miss that and keep proclaiming that 'tolerance' is the answer like those Liberals you are only proofing the 'extreme Right' 'correct.'.

If you want multiculturalism to succeed. Russia is a fine example. Ally yourself with the Muslim community and fight extremism together. Syria is also a good example. The Assad family never allowed radical parties such as the Muslim brotherhood to become a political power. When it's Christmas you can find Assad in church. And when it's Ramadan he will celebrate it in a Mosque. He treats every religion as his friend and Allies against extremism.

OSIT.
 
Puck said:
I woke up this morning with this gender nonsense on my mind, oddly enough. I've concluded that what is really bothering me about the non-pronouns, even the use of 'they' - is that it's a confusion of the language and blurring of lines that are essential. In other words, having gender distinctions, male and female, is a good thing. It helps us identify ourselves and others - it's a literal requirement for propagation of the species.
.... Deliberate blurring of the language in this case is like blurring of reality

Yes, the ONLY criterion for "male" or "female" is the person's reproductive status. This is 'reality', as it is. It seems to me that all the confusion and turmoil created by the twisting of the meanings and their usage of words is to enhance and utilize the use of selection and substitution, buffers and filters in as many people as possible to mess up their ability to think in any way that resembles 'reality'.

How any person 'feels' about themselves is an entirely different matter and has absolutely nothing to do with their reproductive status.

Like, some days I feel more African American than I do Italian American, that doesn't mean I start telling people that I'm not-white. They'd look at me like I'm nuts!

Well, most of us have a small percentage of 'African; in our genome. Lots of us also have some Neanderthal in us too. Why does any of these slight differences between us make any real difference? I, personally, always try to remember the C's description of humanity: "individuated electromagnetic wave=reading units". All the other 'minor differences' between us then seem to fade into a much lesser importance.

But with this gender nonsense people can make up any story they like and if you don't believe them it's oppression!

Yes, it's pretty sad, but we need to keep in mind that this is 'man in his normal state', and consider what is the result.
 
Richard S said:
Puck said:
I woke up this morning with this gender nonsense on my mind, oddly enough. I've concluded that what is really bothering me about the non-pronouns, even the use of 'they' - is that it's a confusion of the language and blurring of lines that are essential. In other words, having gender distinctions, male and female, is a good thing. It helps us identify ourselves and others - it's a literal requirement for propagation of the species.
.... Deliberate blurring of the language in this case is like blurring of reality

Yes, the ONLY criterion for "male" or "female" is the person's reproductive status. This is 'reality', as it is. It seems to me that all the confusion and turmoil created by the twisting of the meanings and their usage of words is to enhance and utilize the use of selection and substitution, buffers and filters in as many people as possible to mess up their ability to think in any way that resembles 'reality'.

A common derogatory term for a trans person online is "Trap", which I think comes directly from people assuming a person's sex by their gender presentation, only to learn otherwise later on that they're trans. Often I've heard trans people complain "what's between my legs is none of your business", or something to that effect. Realistically though, that's what ALL this gendering is predicated on communicating. It's not "weird" or "rude" - it's completely normal, if strange to think about consciously. It may provoke a lot of anxiety in the person who is inter-sexed or trans, but with the right psychological intervention they really should be fine with it, or find resolution. I wonder if people who went naked in prehistory had these types of confusions... my guess is no.

Mind you, I do think some things can be OVER-gendered. Even earplugs for noise protection are marketed separately to men and women (even though they're identical in all but maybe color). There's also indoeuropean languages in general, where even bridges and onions and pockets all have genders (sometimes even neuter ALONGSIDE masculine and feminine). I really have to wonder what was going on in the heads of the proto-indoeuropeans.

Like, some days I feel more African American than I do Italian American, that doesn't mean I start telling people that I'm not-white. They'd look at me like I'm nuts!

Maybe you're trans-racial like Shawn King? :rolleyes:
 
truth seeker said:
Heather said:
I thought to flesh out a bit more ideas associated with Jung and the suffering associated with trauma...
Thanks for posting the Kalsched videos, I thought they were interesting. I've listened to Van der Kolk's audiobook version of "The Body Keeps the Score" and thought it was really good.

And thanks for mentioning the audiobook version of Van der Kolk's "The Body Keeps the Score." I'm always interested in things I can listen to as I tend to other things at home so I'll have a listen.
 
Richard S said:
Yes, the ONLY criterion for "male" or "female" is the person's reproductive status. This is 'reality', as it is. It seems to me that all the confusion and turmoil created by the twisting of the meanings and their usage of words is to enhance and utilize the use of selection and substitution, buffers and filters in as many people as possible to mess up their ability to think in any way that resembles 'reality'.

Well, there are Trans people, that is, men who strongly feel they are 'in the wrong body' and live as women and vice-versa. It is rare, but it exists. Notice however that these people transition from one gender to the other - that is, they feel either male or female. This whole 'non-binary' gender thing is the problem - that people just make up all kinds of ridiculous 'genders' based on subjective moods and fashion.

It's interesting to note that Peterson brings up a study (if I remember correctly) by a psychologist that shows that if children show some 'Gender confusion', with proper psychological help I think 60% of them turn out homosexual later, and 90% keep their gender identity (male or female). This makes all the PC gender thing, where even children are encouraged to 'feel whatever they want' in terms of gender, even more dangerous and ridiculous.
 
Possibility of Being said:
Joe said:
In the above video, near the start, where he comments on the fact that Trudeau praised Castro and then says he 'tweeted' the story about Cuba selling the blood of executed prisoners to the viet cong in 1967; I could be wrong of course, but that story sounds to me like an example of hysterical US Cold War propaganda. Strange that Peterson would not be skeptical of such an unlikely tale.

I tend to agree with you Luc, that his apparent lack of awareness of the deeper more nuanced truth about the political/military history of the west is a bit of a blind spot.

That may, or may not be true, or only to some extent, but similar practice is known outside of Cuba as well.

In 2005, WSJ carried an article on Castro, opening with this quote:
"On May 27, [1966,] 166 Cubans -- civilians and members of the military -- were executed and submitted to medical procedures of blood extraction of an average of seven pints per person. This blood is sold to Communist Vietnam at a rate of $50 per pint with the dual purpose of obtaining hard currency and contributing to the Vietcong Communist aggression.

"A pint of blood is equivalent to half a liter. Extracting this amount of blood from a person sentenced to death produces cerebral anemia and a state of unconsciousness and paralysis. Once the blood is extracted, the person is taken by two militiamen on a stretcher to the location where the execution takes place."

-- InterAmerican Human Rights Commission, April 7, 1967

With the rest of your post notwithstanding, what came to mind the other night was this InterAmerican Human Rights Commission (IACHR) who is quoted as saying the above. Then, in 1967, it was chaired by the American, Durwood Sandifer. Somewhere it was read that they opened up hotlines to incoming HR information (cause they were criticized at one point), so they likely were parroting ex pat Cuban's (maybe). When one considers the type of lens that was being applied to Latin America, the Soviets etc., things were being overlooked, under reported or propagandized (like we see today from NGO's and HR groups). So it seems that it is possible that what was said is accounted for in the latter comment on propaganda to keep the masses in fear of their created nemesis, the communists, and closer to home, Cuba and Castro - vilification the statuesque.

Considering the U.S. policy in Latin America during these times, while under the so called watchful eye of the IACHR then (not much of a peep), who could believe what they said when invasions were so clear, from the Dominican Republic, to a new sponsored Brazilian regime and later with Chile's overthrow of Salvador Allende etcetera etcetera.
 
Peterson tweeted some words of wisdom - it started with advice to one of his followers:

J.P.: Marshall your arguments and don't put up with any nonsense.

@jordanbpeterson marshaling my arguments- starting with learning from your book "Maps of Meaning"

Reply J.P.: Write a bit about what you think every day. Ask yourself a hard question. Try to answer it. I'll tweet an example.

Then he tweeted the following:

What shall I do with a torn nation? Stitch it back together with words of truth.

What shall I do in the face of evil? Let its onslaughts strip me of all deadwood.

What shall I do in the face of despair? Consider how one small thing might be made better.

What shall I do to tame my ego? Always remember that it is better to learn than to know.

What shall I do with a lying man? Let him speak so that he may reveal himself.

What shall I do with the most difficult of questions? Consider them the gateway to the path of life.

What shall I do when I ruin my rivers? Seek for the living water and let it cleanse the Earth.

What shall I do with the fact of aging? Replace the potential of my youth with the accomplishments of my maturity.

What shall I do when my loved one sickens? Strive to be useful in the face of your suffering.

What shall I do when no one wants to listen? Strive to speak the words that all long to hear.

What shall I do when everyone's against me? Listen and learn and rise to fight once more.

What shall I do when my wisdom goes unheeded? Wait in utter silence til the audience appears.

What shall I do with the poor man's plight? Strive through right example to lift his broken heart.

What shall I do with my newfound pen of light? Write down all the words you want inscribed on your soul.

What shall I do when the great crowd beckons? Stand tall and utter my broken truths.

What shall I do when my enemy succeeds? Aim a little higher and be grateful for the lesson.

What shall I say to a faithless brother? The King of the Damned is a poor judge of Being.

How shall I deal with the enlightened one? Replace him with the true seeker of enlightenment.
 
luc said:
This is all very fascinating and challenging for me as someone who was socialized in the die-hard liberal milieu.

It's pretty interesting for sure. I'm sure it also gives you an insight into the nature of ideology, and how easily and more or less subconsciously one can be adopted. Kind of scary when you really think about it.
 
whitecoast said:
Mind you, I do think some things can be OVER-gendered. Even earplugs for noise protection are marketed separately to men and women (even though they're identical in all but maybe color). There's also indoeuropean languages in general, where even bridges and onions and pockets all have genders (sometimes even neuter ALONGSIDE masculine and feminine). I really have to wonder what was going on in the heads of the proto-indoeuropeans.

What might have been going on in their heads was the clear knowledge that not only were the vast majority of all species on this planet either male or female, but the distinction between male and female was fundamentally natural and should be classified as such in order to understand and appreciate the essential differences and essences of both in order to be able to live life more in harmony with nature.
 
I recommend watching this (relatively short) new video by Peterson, where he speaks about the current law that sets up 'human rights tribunals' and also reads an assessment by a lawyer about their powers. Very scary. You can start at 7:00 if you don't have much time:


https://youtu.be/mbAKQrClN8A


I find this very interesting - wouldn't many people on the left, including those who are now protesting 'against the system' and so on, embrace such tribunals? Kind of - 'now, we finally can make sure our human rights are respected!'

If you watch the video, it's clear that these tribunals are a psychopath's dream come true - finally, they can declare what they are and force people to accept them. They don't need to bother with evidence but can just declare 'they feel hurt' to convict people. They can send people to 're-education' and basically do whatever they want. The total Orwellian nightmare.

Now I was thinking - Hillary probably would have gone in that direction as well if she had won, and the fact that many Trump supporters would have freaked out would have helped to set-up and spread such tribunals and similar concepts. You know, all this right-wing violence and hate-speech must be punished! And the left cheers...

With Trump's victory, such plans aren't so straight-forward anymore, but this won't stop them from trying I guess.
 
''I Am a Man Who Wants to Be Pregnant'' :

http://www.experienceproject.com/groups/Am-A-Man-Who-Wants-To-Be-Pregnant/218530


In case anyone ever felt the need for such a support group, here it is. Lots of gender confused people.

I am a male who wishes he could get pregnant. Actually, wishing is a word too light I think. I want to be pregnant, it's been my core desire for years. I want to be pregnant so bad it hurts. I glare at my flat, womb less stomach at times and cry.

Pregnancy is such a beautiful part of life that I would give anything to experience. To feel children inside me kicking and moving. Feeling all the signs of pregnancy have a huge preggo belly. Oh how I would do and try anything for this to happen to me. I want to be so pregnant I can barely move.

Even though I know I will never have the joy of feeling life grow inside of me; or the pain of child birth; or the transcendental bliss of holding my child to my breast as she suckles; I can still have fun trying to get pregnant.

I've always loved the concept of being pregnant as a man. I have always loved to do roleplays and write about it, and I have started dressing up with a big pregnant belly too. If anyone wants to message me to roleplay or just talk about it I'd love to

I am currently dressed as a pregnant female. I'm nine months along. I love it!!! I'm only doing it for a month though and I really wish it was for a full nine months. This is the greatest experience of my life. I never new I would like dressing in women's clothes but its great.

Enough said.
 
bjorn said:
''I Am a Man Who Wants to Be Pregnant'' :

http://www.experienceproject.com/groups/Am-A-Man-Who-Wants-To-Be-Pregnant/218530


In case anyone ever felt the need for such a support group, here it is. Lots of gender confused people.

I am a male who wishes he could get pregnant. Actually, wishing is a word too light I think. I want to be pregnant, it's been my core desire for years. I want to be pregnant so bad it hurts. I glare at my flat, womb less stomach at times and cry.

Pregnancy is such a beautiful part of life that I would give anything to experience. To feel children inside me kicking and moving. Feeling all the signs of pregnancy have a huge preggo belly. Oh how I would do and try anything for this to happen to me. I want to be so pregnant I can barely move.

Even though I know I will never have the joy of feeling life grow inside of me; or the pain of child birth; or the transcendental bliss of holding my child to my breast as she suckles; I can still have fun trying to get pregnant.

I've always loved the concept of being pregnant as a man. I have always loved to do roleplays and write about it, and I have started dressing up with a big pregnant belly too. If anyone wants to message me to roleplay or just talk about it I'd love to

I am currently dressed as a pregnant female. I'm nine months along. I love it!!! I'm only doing it for a month though and I really wish it was for a full nine months. This is the greatest experience of my life. I never new I would like dressing in women's clothes but its great.

Enough said.


Geez! :O


https://youtu.be/VXVZfLEcPdM
 
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