The Experiment

edgitarra

Jedi Council Member
While reading "You are not so smart" I got to a part where there was described an experiment with some students held in a prison. Half of them were "guardians" and half of them were "prisoners". It was an behavioral experiment. I found a movie based on this experiment. It is called "The Experiment" :) and the main character is Adrien Brody. I do not wish to spoil the plot so I will just recommend this movie. A good piece about human behavior.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0997152/
 
Hi edgitarra,

This movie is the remake of the german version called "Das Experiment" released in 2001.
I haven't seen the version with Adrien Brody but this remake is also based on the events that happened during the Stanford prison experiment.

I don't know if you were aware of this before seeing the film ?
 
Stanford Prison Experiment (2015)

Tonight I got to see the movie named after the Stanford Prison Experiment.

It was very emotional seeing how people fell into place, reminding me of Bob Altemeyer's authoritarians.

Some dots were connected in seeing what personality conditions allowed for the horrible mistreatment of the prisoners and their lack of unity. It's not just needing them to fight with violence, but with the correct attitude of a righteous feeling that they don't deserve it and should be considered. Not what our society has done and still does, which is to accept injustice as "the way it is".

Traits of Confident people thread:
The students didn't seem confident enough to stand up for what they wanted. Knowing it was an experiment, they tried to say when things went out of hand being against the official rules. However, due to the guards who quickly seized authority, they lost their feeling to the right of the contract they signed. Anyone who has been afraid to stand up for their OWN authority, ends up serving others' authority.

On Anger thread:
Anger is useful, especially in cases like this which was full of gaslighting and constant line crossing (in terms of the contract agreed upon by the participants). Anger can be a real suffering that leads you to face perceived danger and stand up for what you feel you deserve.

David Jacobs interview on abductions:
Jacobs mentioned how many people were terrified and felt powerless in abductions. A lot of them didn't fight back after seeing they "couldn't win", like the participants. Even the ones who found peace with the situation were eventually targeted. There is no way to hide from it.
Yet Jacobs explained how fighting back- using anger properly in that case, got them out of the situation. The abductors, much like the guards only have as much power as you concede to them.

Malcolm X speeches/writings:
Malcolm X explained that you can't always speak to someone if they don't speak your language of logic and reason. If they are setting you up to be lynched, you can't stop them that way, you have to fight back. That does not mean lynching them back, but to do what is needed to prevent you from being lynched and to help those who are going to be lynched. The prisoners didn't stand up for eachother, they quickly hid in their own bubbles, hoping the punishments would go to someone else. JUST LIKE OUR SOCIETY DOES.

Argh, it was a tough movie to watch but I can say a good reminder of what might happen if things get worse and worse. I am reminded of a show I saw on violence and video games. Violence was found not to cause violent behavior (unless you dissasociate and not feel it they found). But what did cause violent behavior was frustration (via a rigged to fail Tetris game). Interesting when we think about transmarginal inhibition- the dogs who got angry and fought were harder to break down.
 
Re: Stanford Prison Experiment (2015)

Divide By Zero said:
Tonight I got to see the movie named after the Stanford Prison Experiment.

It was very emotional seeing how people fell into place, reminding me of Bob Altemeyer's authoritarians.

Some dots were connected in seeing what personality conditions allowed for the horrible mistreatment of the prisoners and their lack of unity. It's not just needing them to fight with violence, but with the correct attitude of a righteous feeling that they don't deserve it and should be considered. Not what our society has done and still does, which is to accept injustice as "the way it is".

Traits of Confident people thread:
The students didn't seem confident enough to stand up for what they wanted. Knowing it was an experiment, they tried to say when things went out of hand being against the official rules. However, due to the guards who quickly seized authority, they lost their feeling to the right of the contract they signed. Anyone who has been afraid to stand up for their OWN authority, ends up serving others' authority.

On Anger thread:
Anger is useful, especially in cases like this which was full of gaslighting and constant line crossing (in terms of the contract agreed upon by the participants). Anger can be a real suffering that leads you to face perceived danger and stand up for what you feel you deserve.

David Jacobs interview on abductions:
Jacobs mentioned how many people were terrified and felt powerless in abductions. A lot of them didn't fight back after seeing they "couldn't win", like the participants. Even the ones who found peace with the situation were eventually targeted. There is no way to hide from it.
Yet Jacobs explained how fighting back- using anger properly in that case, got them out of the situation. The abductors, much like the guards only have as much power as you concede to them.

Malcolm X speeches/writings:
Malcolm X explained that you can't always speak to someone if they don't speak your language of logic and reason. If they are setting you up to be lynched, you can't stop them that way, you have to fight back. That does not mean lynching them back, but to do what is needed to prevent you from being lynched and to help those who are going to be lynched. The prisoners didn't stand up for eachother, they quickly hid in their own bubbles, hoping the punishments would go to someone else. JUST LIKE OUR SOCIETY DOES.

Argh, it was a tough movie to watch but I can say a good reminder of what might happen if things get worse and worse. I am reminded of a show I saw on violence and video games. Violence was found not to cause violent behavior (unless you dissasociate and not feel it they found). But what did cause violent behavior was frustration (via a rigged to fail Tetris game). Interesting when we think about transmarginal inhibition- the dogs who got angry and fought were harder to break down.

Hi,
It's been awhile since I saw that movie and it was very interesting as well as shocking.
If I may ask you some questions; knowing all that you know now, if you were appointed to join this experiment, how would you react? Also, would knowing that it's only an "experiment"; knowing it's not going to last to long,would that effect or change your behavior? Also, I would like to know, what do you think "G" would do in handling such an experiment?
 
Hi, It's been awhile since I saw that movie and it was very interesting as well as shocking. If I may ask you some questions; knowing all that you know now, if you were appointed to join this experiment, how would you react? Also, would knowing that it's only an "experiment"; knowing it's not going to last to long,would that effect or change your behavior? Also, I would like to know, what do you think "G" would do in handling such an experiment?


Good questions, similar to what my girlfriend and I talked about.


Remember how many times the guys repeated that it was an experiment, but they still fell into line, no matter how stupid the situation became?

It seems like it was human nature, to just deal with the situation and "not make waves".


The guy who was very quiet and obedient even got tortured by the guards, so what is the point of being obedient?


https://www.sott.net/article/136090-Transmarginal-Inhibition


We see in this article that the "angry" choleric type was the hardest to crack. But, it kind of makes you wonder, were the guards that turned crazy choleric too?


No, I don't think so. They were actually one of the more passive types, fitting into a role.


That's just the basics on what dangers come about in "being quiet" in the face of injustice and torture. What's the point of "surviving" the experiment, even if it's just a "game"?


I can only think that authoritarian followers are afraid to make waves, because they don't feel deep down this anger of injustice.




I'll be honest here with my impressions during the movie, both emotional and logical. Mostly emotional when it got too far.... I've always been like this, even when I was a kid watching movies with my mother about horrible people. It's so sad how many people just take abuse. I thought I was weak for not having the patience they had.




If I were a prisoner:
I'd get so angry I couldn't sit and take it. Maybe I'd be beaten up like some were. Maybe I'd beat someone up out of rage. In my life I've been in less fights than you can count on one hand, but half the time it was because I could get angry and say "I won't back down" (as the Tom Petty song goes). I always felt I was wrong for being not able to hold back, but that's just this lie that society tells us to be quiet and take the pain. No, I have free will for a reason, even if it is to get into more trouble.
What the guy did to get out was good, he showed a sickness that the "warden" could not deny. He didn't care about being labeled a chicken or wussy, he was smart to get out!




If I were a guard:
I haven't ever been in a guard situation, but I was in management before. I was dragged into someone else's game to discipline a guy. I stood my ground with my facts, that I have no facts to corroborate the argument of the "trigger happy" supervisor. Again, like transmarginal inhibition and the study of authoritarian followers show, people rather go with the flow and not hurt the feelings and desires of those in charge (or in control). I felt that the livelihood of that worker being targeted was more important than some selfish showing off of my colleague who wanted a notch on his belt.


If I were in that prison, I might have stepped in front to stop things, even if that means a fight- knowing that the guard hitting a guard would be a big problem for the seemingly psychopathic acting warden/professor at the time. He really got on my nerves by being so rigid. Maybe it was by design, but I think he did lose himself there and became what he wanted to stop until his colleague (forget her name, sorry) called him out on his irrational judgments.




The former prisoner who was on the board also set off bells in my head when he was explaining how this is how things were done, and how they will be done. Some of my former co workers used to express their past torturous working conditions as justification for perpetuating it. Most seemed to accept that, I did not, because again "I am too weak to take something that doesn't have to be that way".


Maybe this is the difference between general anger and righteous anger. If we know things can be done better, anger is justified when authority willfully ignores it. But general anger gets mixed into it, like some of the current post modernist millennial thinking that everything should be roses and butterflies. No, sometimes work sucks and has to suck. Some things are dirty any way you try to do it, no way to sugar coat it.


And then we have the other extreme, the right winger mentality- expressed by the southern accent stereotype guards in the movie: Prisoners are crap and need to be treated as sub human.


This is a good exercise because it reminds me of why this whole current political "turmoil" in the USA seems pointless. It still divides people, like has been done for centuries. The ones who try to unite- MLK, Malcolm X, JFK, etc end up getting killed. I think maybe that's a scary yet true karmic lesson, you try to fix the problems of earth, you get taken off this planet.
 
Divide By Zero said:
Hi, It's been awhile since I saw that movie and it was very interesting as well as shocking. If I may ask you some questions; knowing all that you know now, if you were appointed to join this experiment, how would you react? Also, would knowing that it's only an "experiment"; knowing it's not going to last to long,would that effect or change your behavior? Also, I would like to know, what do you think "G" would do in handling such an experiment?


Good questions, similar to what my girlfriend and I talked about.


Remember how many times the guys repeated that it was an experiment, but they still fell into line, no matter how stupid the situation became?

It seems like it was human nature, to just deal with the situation and "not make waves".


The guy who was very quiet and obedient even got tortured by the guards, so what is the point of being obedient?


https://www.sott.net/article/136090-Transmarginal-Inhibition


We see in this article that the "angry" choleric type was the hardest to crack. But, it kind of makes you wonder, were the guards that turned crazy choleric too?


No, I don't think so. They were actually one of the more passive types, fitting into a role.


That's just the basics on what dangers come about in "being quiet" in the face of injustice and torture. What's the point of "surviving" the experiment, even if it's just a "game"?


I can only think that authoritarian followers are afraid to make waves, because they don't feel deep down this anger of injustice.




I'll be honest here with my impressions during the movie, both emotional and logical. Mostly emotional when it got too far.... I've always been like this, even when I was a kid watching movies with my mother about horrible people. It's so sad how many people just take abuse. I thought I was weak for not having the patience they had.




If I were a prisoner:
I'd get so angry I couldn't sit and take it. Maybe I'd be beaten up like some were. Maybe I'd beat someone up out of rage. In my life I've been in less fights than you can count on one hand, but half the time it was because I could get angry and say "I won't back down" (as the Tom Petty song goes). I always felt I was wrong for being not able to hold back, but that's just this lie that society tells us to be quiet and take the pain. No, I have free will for a reason, even if it is to get into more trouble.
What the guy did to get out was good, he showed a sickness that the "warden" could not deny. He didn't care about being labeled a chicken or wussy, he was smart to get out!




If I were a guard:
I haven't ever been in a guard situation, but I was in management before. I was dragged into someone else's game to discipline a guy. I stood my ground with my facts, that I have no facts to corroborate the argument of the "trigger happy" supervisor. Again, like transmarginal inhibition and the study of authoritarian followers show, people rather go with the flow and not hurt the feelings and desires of those in charge (or in control). I felt that the livelihood of that worker being targeted was more important than some selfish showing off of my colleague who wanted a notch on his belt.


If I were in that prison, I might have stepped in front to stop things, even if that means a fight- knowing that the guard hitting a guard would be a big problem for the seemingly psychopathic acting warden/professor at the time. He really got on my nerves by being so rigid. Maybe it was by design, but I think he did lose himself there and became what he wanted to stop until his colleague (forget her name, sorry) called him out on his irrational judgments.




The former prisoner who was on the board also set off bells in my head when he was explaining how this is how things were done, and how they will be done. Some of my former co workers used to express their past torturous working conditions as justification for perpetuating it. Most seemed to accept that, I did not, because again "I am too weak to take something that doesn't have to be that way".


Maybe this is the difference between general anger and righteous anger. If we know things can be done better, anger is justified when authority willfully ignores it. But general anger gets mixed into it, like some of the current post modernist millennial thinking that everything should be roses and butterflies. No, sometimes work sucks and has to suck. Some things are dirty any way you try to do it, no way to sugar coat it.


And then we have the other extreme, the right winger mentality- expressed by the southern accent stereotype guards in the movie: Prisoners are crap and need to be treated as sub human.


This is a good exercise because it reminds me of why this whole current political "turmoil" in the USA seems pointless. It still divides people, like has been done for centuries. The ones who try to unite- MLK, Malcolm X, JFK, etc end up getting killed. I think maybe that's a scary yet true karmic lesson, you try to fix the problems of earth, you get taken off this planet.

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions. You gave me more food for thought. The transmarginal Inhibition article was very interesting and yet horrifying. I may be mistaken, but it sure feels like we're in a world where Transmarginal Inhibition is the norm, and psychopaths pushing it to be Ultra Transmarginal Inhibition,osit. G must have known about these kinds of study and thus, created the fourth way? but what exactly did he accomplish? Did he die like any other human machine or was there something I'm not seen? And did he communicate with any divine spirit; like how we have the cassiopean?
I got more questions than understanding the answers :(
 
okiron said:
Thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions. You gave me more food for thought. The transmarginal Inhibition article was very interesting and yet horrifying. I may be mistaken, but it sure feels like we're in a world where Transmarginal Inhibition is the norm, and psychopaths pushing it to be Ultra Transmarginal Inhibition,osit. G must have known about these kinds of study and thus, created the fourth way? but what exactly did he accomplish? Did he die like any other human machine or was there something I'm not seen? And did he communicate with any divine spirit; like how we have the cassiopean?
I got more questions than understanding the answers :(


I don't think he did communicate with the divine. Through learning about various traditions, he saw something which at the time was not developed yet- cognitive psychology! Seeing how our machine works is basically psychology.
When I think of the "evil rulers" I think of them figuring out the most they can on how to manipulate us, like Pavlov did with the dogs, for example.
 
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