What's your goal?

daco said:

I have my goal in life,to go and become zen monk (becouse of what G said that man must find a group of people to work and help others in the path),but for me it is very hard to do this,first of all I,m still young,I have time to think about this becouse if someday I go to the monastery it is the final decision and there is no back.
Besides becoming a zen monk,the real goal is to become master of oneself (without that nothing can be achieved),to be free,to gain will,awareness and to DO.

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Just out of curiosity, what exactly is a Zen Monk and why would you want to go to the monastery?
I think becoming master of oneself might take a lifetime as it is a daily challenge and battle in a sense. The Fourth Way is quite different from the Monk life as it is practiced out there "into the world" and not somewhere quiet and isolated.

When G. mentioned to find a group of people, because one can't do the Work alone, I personally understood that this forum is such a place. Because we all do the Work and try to help each other. And I don't think monks practice the Work (the Fourth Way) in a monastery, they usually go by the Way of the Monk.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is a Zen Monk and why would you want to go to the monastery?

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It is hard to explain in intellectual way,I just following my instinct,it is like a blink.
I think that zen is not just a way of the monk,that they dont work only on emotions,they work on intellect too (koans for example),for moving-sexual-instinctive center I dont know,but main think is that there is a group of people who works on themselves.

The Fourth Way is quite different from the Monk life as it is practiced out there "into the world" and not somewhere quiet and isolated.

When G. mentioned to find a group of people, because one can't do the Work alone, I personally understood that this forum is such a place. Because we all do the Work and try to help each other. And I don't think monks practice the Work (the Fourth Way) in a monastery, they usually go by the Way of the Monk.

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Yes this forum is such a place but it is only a forum we communicate through writings but in real life we dont know each others we are not in real contact and I think that real contact is a must to work together and try to wake up,through the forums we cannot doing real work (just opinion),where is the teacher for example?
For me real contact is crucial for work,people must live together and work together and that is one of the reasons why I have goal to become zen monk,monastery offers that,but beside that there is a lot of questions.
Now my life have basicly no mean at all,I dont live I die every day slowly and I can feel it in myself it bothers me every day,I want to change and becouse of this I want to go and become zen monk.

Here where I,m there is no people to talk about fourth way or Gurdjieff ideas or Cs experiment,Laura work,here I,m all alone in all of this,becouse that I want to find a group of people which goals are somewhat similiar to my own and that is why I think to become zen monk (I know that this is the way of the monk and that there only work on emotions but beside that my opinion is that there exist people who are on the path and that there exist real masters).

The Fourth Way is quite different from the Monk life as it is practiced out there "into the world" and not somewhere quiet and isolated.

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I dont think it is isolated,it is organized,there is people who work,man is not alone.
The fourth way is good but to do fourth way man must find a group of people to do this in practice not just in theory,my opinion is that all of the fourth way schools dont have real teacher who have been in real group Like Gurdjieff.Gurdjieff is the only one who brought teaching to the west,he was in real group.

daco said:

I have my goal in life,to go and become zen monk (becouse of what G said that man must find a group of people to work and help others in the path),but for me it is very hard to do this,first of all I,m still young,I have time to think about this becouse if someday I go to the monastery it is the final decision and there is no back.
Besides becoming a zen monk,the real goal is to become master of oneself (without that nothing can be achieved),to be free,to gain will,awareness and to DO.

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you misunderstood G, all you ever need is already in your environment,the forum here is the tool that can guide you through the challenges you will have to face in your life.

What you are looking for is an escape from reality, your environment right now is your school, it is a reflection of your life, the place were you belong, this is were you must start. If you have read G you must know that self-observation is one of the major keys in mastering oneself, but ofcourse you can not do this alone, you will have doubts about yourself and you will need to talk and communicate about your experiences so others can give you advice.

You can do this here in a private section and still have your ''normal'' life, because your daily life is where you will have to practice the work, you do not need to go to monastery.

there is no people to talk about

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Now my life have basicly no mean at all

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I die every day slowly and I can feel it in myself it bothers me every day

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I,m all alone in all of this

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I think that real contact is a must to work together

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Could it be that you want to go to the monastery because you feel lonely not because you want to master yourself, ever thought about that? could it be that you that you want to escape your current life because you feel alone?

Daco, there are a lot of people on this forum who are and feel really lonely because they need someone to talk to, someone who can understand them, but yet all of these people don't run away to an isolated island where they can find friends.

I have felt the exact same way as you did in the past and I can promise you that you will learn a lot from your loneliness as you are percieving at the moment, in reality you are never alone my friend.

Do not see your loneliness as your enemy, instead see it as a gift, a challenge. who knows what the future might bring you? maybe you will stumble upon someone who has the same dreams and goals as you have and that day would just be another gift as is today.

But lets work on ourselves today, work on our health, increasing our knowledge and in the procces sharing our experience and helping others.

you misunderstood G, all you ever need is already in your environment,the forum here is the tool that can guide you through the challenges you will have to face in your life.

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I know that what you wrote,it seems that you dont understand what I try to tell,if a man want to change himself he must find a group of people,alone man cant do nothing and there is question of teacher,without it there cannot be real work,to gain his own will man must have teacher first.

You can do this here in a private section and still have your ''normal'' life, because your daily life is where you will have to practice the work, you do not need to go to monastery.

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I want to go to the monastery becouse of couple of things,there is a group of people who search,there is a teacher who helps and it is up to you to seek and teacher just shows the door,man alone must go through it but alone he cannot do this.
To do the fourth way you must have real teacher (the master of oneself) without it it is not real work that is the second think.

What you are looking for is an escape from reality, your environment right now is your school, it is a reflection of your life, the place were you belong, this is were you must start. If you have read G you must know that self-observation is one of the major keys in mastering oneself, but ofcourse you can not do this alone, you will have doubts about yourself and you will need to talk and communicate about your experiences so others can give you advice.

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I partly agree with this,but I dont think that doing the work alone and communicating with others on forum about the work is enough,the teacher play important role in work on oneself,but to find it that is the real question and my opinion is that real teachers exist in zen.

Could it be that you want to go to the monastery because you feel lonely not because you want to master yourself, ever thought about that? could it be that you that you want to escape your current life because you feel alone?

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NO,no,you dont understand me at all,I,m not alone,I have social life and friends,what you wrote I though about it before.I,m empty and becouse of this I want to change myself I,m not alone like you wrote here just empty and this is horrible to see it in yourself,that you are empty,if you ever feel that you will know what I,m talking about.

Daco, there are a lot of people on this forum who are and feel really lonely because they need someone to talk to, someone who can understand them, but yet all of these people don't run away to an isolated island where they can find friends.

I have felt the exact same way as you did in the past and I can promise you that you will learn a lot from your loneliness as you are percieving at the moment, in reality you are never alone my friend.

Do not see your loneliness as your enemy, instead see it as a gift, a challenge. who knows what the future might bring you? maybe you will stumble upon someone who has the same dreams and goals as you have and that day would just be another gift as is today.

But lets work on ourselves today, work on our health, increasing our knowledge and in the procces sharing our experience and helping others.

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You misunderstand me,to express what I want to tell is in this video (from Meetings With Remarkable Men) and you will see that this what you wrote is not about loneliness at all it is about something else but it is hard to explain it,but is not easy to describe it myself in writings becouse of language and its barriers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9o9GkxtOh4

Here where I,m there is no people to talk about fourth way or Gurdjieff ideas or Cs experiment,Laura work,here I,m all alone in all of this,becouse that I want to find a group of people which goals are somewhat similiar to my own and that is why I think to become zen monk

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@Bo
I wrote this,sorry for my english but I want to explain this,I just wanted to tell that I,m here alone in all of this in work but it has nothing to do with loneliness I didnt express myself like I want,it is about emptiness inside of me and becouse of this I want to change,I can feel it in myself.
I hope I explained it now.

daco,

We all are doing the Work. We apply it when we go to school, when we go to work, when we go outside, with our family etc. This way we can observe our different I's etc. and work on them.
We come here, to this forum, to ask if we're doing it the right way, for help and advice.

The teachers are the moderators, Laura and Ark. And we're also open to learn from each other.

There are the three ways:
Way of the monk, the fakir and the yogi. G.'s way is the Fourth Way. See:

http://cassiopedia.org/glossary/4th_Wayhttp://cassiopedia.org/glossary/4th_Way

The 4th Way differs from these in that it seeks to simultaneously develop all three sides and to do so in the environment of ordinary life, whereas the three first ways all require from the beginning a complete abandoning of daily life and a seclusion into a monastic environment. The 4th Way is sometimes therefore called the way of the 'sly man.' All the 4 ways may lead to the same understandings and may bring their practitioner from the 'outer circle' of humanity to the 'exoteric' and later 'mesoteric' and 'esoteric' circles .

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You do not need physical contact with those who do the Work. All you need is a way to make contact in a safe and observed environment.

daco said:

I want to go to the monastery becouse of couple of things...my opinion is that real teachers exist in zen...somewhat similiar to my own and that is why I think to become zen monk

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Sounds like you should go to a monastery, then. I'm not sure, though, why you appear to be looking for approval for that here. Why have you not already gone? Why are you asking for approval here where you think there is no teacher? It is your life, it is your decision. If you are not able to see the teachers here, then, you should do what you choose to do - it's your life, daco and all there is is lessons.

I see, okay

the teacher play important role in work on oneself

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ofcourse, a teacher is very important.

I think that real contact is a must to work together and try to wake up,through the forums we cannot doing real work (just opinion),where is the teacher for example?

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on the forum you can see that people are really growing as a being, their improvement in health, their increase of understanding about themselves, you see all of this through their interaction on this forum, REAL work is done, because they walk through the door, they APPLY the knowledge they get from the forum, this forum has spent a lot of years reading and analyzing the fourth way and also working on those foundations, gradually this forum itself has become the teacher, it has become a house for those who want an understanding, and the real founder of this forum is Laura&Ark, she is the real teacher, this is her house. What do you think you will gain from talking to someone in person then talking here? I can understand that there are benefits, but there is not much difference with writing here and having a teacher in person if the individual that seeks to change is really sincere about it.

The teacher mirrors the student in order for him to see his illusion and thus giving him the ability to understand himself in new ways, this same thing also happens on this forum in the ''private'' section.

If you can't do real work through the advices that one gets through the forum it simply means that you can't apply advice to your life,you can't walk through the door, then you are not sincere in doing any work.

through the forums we cannot doing real work (just opinion)

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Opinion? because of an opinion you think that this forum does not provide the neccesary tools for devolpment? don't you think that's really subjective?

Hello Daco

Many times i feel the same that i am alone and i don't have anybody to talk i know that feeling because we live in some other countries where religion is hard and people don't want to hear about this "stories". But i don't give that feel to be with me because i have this forum and people on this forum and they read my posts and help me to be open and that is all what i have in this moment and i am appreciated on this friendship, it is all i have in this STS world where i love to be because they learn like me and the real teacher in this world don't expose self and that becomes real teacher's, beside Laura, Ark you can listen what Anart have to say about your problem, he is really good in "teaching", he do it with hard and smart comments and here you can find many other people with smart words just need to search a bit. Really is hard for me to express my feelings in true meaning of this in English.
The point is that they give us a hand to stand up and we must walk alone.

ark said:

We have the topic "What's your work?" But perhaps it is also interesting to exchange our views on the "meaning of our lives". So, what's your's in your life?

Is it "happiness"? But our enemies also want to be "happy" - just in a different way. Is it happiness of other people? But if we give them happiness, according to how we see it, then they may not be able to find the true meaning of their lives?

So what is your goal in this life?

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Can i say if is not to much to learn how to escape this prison.

daco said:

the real goal is to become master of oneself (without that nothing can be achieved),to be free,to gain will,awareness and to DO.

Click to expand...

daco said:

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is a Zen Monk and why would you want to go to the monastery?

Click to expand...

It is hard to explain in intellectual way,I just following my instinct,it is like a blink.
I think that zen is not just a way of the monk,that they dont work only on emotions,they work on intellect too (koans for example),for moving-sexual-instinctive center I dont know,but main think is that there is a group of people who works on themselves.

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Hi daco. You seem to be unsure exactly what results a monk's life produces. How can you be so sure this is what you want to do? Could there be something else going on?

I sometimes seem to have unusual ways of looking at things, but to me, a monk's life is just symbolic of the concentration needed to excel at self-knowledge and self-growth.

Also to me, the Fourth Way Work has evolved beyond the necessity for such a Way of life; but, as always, I could have missed something.

As mentioned above, seems to want to escape from something, Daco. You can change your life without having to go anywhere. What "I" wants to leave, flee? Why? That is an ascetic or a monk does not make you free, which is probably what you want. Ask yourself questions: why do I feel what I feel? What happens that I like to change? That I have fear, anger ...?

Just a suggestion. As you said Anart, you do what you want, not need anyone's approval.

I had a partner who was very interested in zen buddhism. We used to go almost every weekend to one of the two temples they had. While their life may seem idyllic, it's not. Although I did feel that some members were genuinely practicing, the monastery did have their fair share of scandals and some of the more narcissistic members would act as though they were better than others. I even felt the head teacher was quite full of himself.

People seemed to be afraid to question him on anything. When I started to see this, I began backing away. If the person leading this group was so afraid of being questioned and didn't talk openly about his past mistakes, how was I supposed to trust him to know what was best for me?

The thing I felt most lacking is that there really was no objective network to give instant feedback. For the most part, everyone deferred to a teacher. How objective can one person be?

Also, living in a monastery can be used as a safety net. A comfortable, quiet place to be to escape from life.

All that said, I realize that zen as practiced in America is different than how it is practiced in other countries although I'm not sure what those differences are.