Catalonia Independence Referendum - Democracy or Unity?

thorbiorn said:
There was today:
_http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/10/20/59e9b76c22601d8f428b4583.html said:
Rajoy and Sánchez agree that there's elections in Catalonia in January[...] The president of the Government, Mariano Rajoy, and the leader of the opposition, Pedro Sanchez, have agreed that the elections in Catalonia, making necessary the application of article 155 of the Constitution are "in the shortest possible time", [...] The first to recognize it has been the former minister Carmen Calvo, one of the main negotiators of the Socialist Party with the Government to apply article 155 in Catalonia. Calvo has said this morning on TVE that the Executive and PSOE have agreed that the regional elections are in January.[...]

The main goal of the application of article 155 is to bring the self-government of Catalonia to the terrain of legality, to ensure the general interest of citizens and, finally, to call elections.[...]
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How will they run elections ?

By banning the independence parties ?

What if the Independence parties win an overwhelming Majority ?

The constitution of 1973 giving power to franco's cronies under a Restored Monarchy
was done literally under Threat.

A latin term Vi Coactus ,
describes that such a contract signed under duress is VOID at Law.
 
From reply 37 del apprenti de forgeron:

"So? In SH is also named Hendaya / Hendaia and talks about the meeting of Canseliet with Fulcanelli in Seville".

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Hi, l apprenti de forgeron.

What does "Hendayas", "Canseliet with Fulcanelli in Seville" have to do with the meaning of what I am telling? In that writing I am explaining the reason why I have been interested in the history of Catalonia.

I did not intend to make direct connection with the matter of the alchemists

To be more exact, if I referred to that chapter of "La onda", which is actually linked, but in a tangential way to Hendaya, it was simply to say how that reading of Laura led me or motivated me to look for more information about Catalonia.
 
thorbiorn said:
True, and even without the participation of Spanish people in general, the excuse to justify sending in the army could be created by a fairly small group. Is it unthinkable that there are such groups within Spanish society that silently, without involving the central government are capable? Thus the central government may not even wish such an outcome, they would just be forced to act due to the initiative of other actors. It is also possible that such actions will be attempted but fail, just like the two Spanish military planes/[plans] that crashed recently.
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Yes. And in any case the foreign elites can intervene to increase the chaos making an attack like the one happened in Las Ramblas lacking little time for plebiscite.

SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
How will they run elections ?

By banning the independence parties ?

What if the Independence parties win an overwhelming Majority ?

The constitution of 1973 giving power to franco's cronies under a Restored Monarchy
was done literally under Threat.

A latin term Vi Coactus ,
describes that such a contract signed under duress is VOID at Law.
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The central government is losing its way, not only because they are corrupt, but because they are cowards - like all other politicians in Spain. The problem are THE AUTONOMIES that were formed by "the transition" and the false constitution (or constitution of the state parties) that with the "Coffee for all" divided Spain in 17 mini-states to give positions to all the politicians. What is at stake now is the constitution of the parties, where the francoists, the socialists and the separatist agreed to form a state with a zombie king. Well, if Spain really had a leader, at least a shadow of what Putin is, it is easily solved: the autonomies are erased and annulled. This ends soon with separatism, since without state funding it would only be left as the ideas of the oligarchs of certain regions and nothing more. The whole question of separatism started because separatists were allowed to run regions and educate and make propaganda with public money. That is, money from all the Spanish people to finance the destruction of Spain!. We will have to see what happens, because both the PP and the PSOE all they want is to agree with the seditious and to follow the circus more calmly. But the separatist leaders do not want to agree if they can not do so, because they want to have their own state to control the trade and, especially, to have a new judicial body to erase and annul all their robberies and crimes that can at any moment to show up and thus leading them to prison.
To paraphrase Putin who said "You should have thought about that before" on Kosovo, one could say to the corrupt ones that made a secret constitution with their backs to the Spanish people: "you should have thought about the generation of the autonomies before". Now the elimination of autonomies are necessary or Spain is destroyed: in the short term by the seditious or in the medium term by the economic collapse by the corruption and waste of money involving state autonomies.

caballero reyes said:
From reply 37 del apprenti de forgeron:

"So? In SH is also named Hendaya / Hendaia and talks about the meeting of Canseliet with Fulcanelli in Seville".

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Hi, l apprenti de forgeron.

What does "Hendayas", "Canseliet with Fulcanelli in Seville" have to do with the meaning of what I am telling? In that writing I am explaining the reason why I have been interested in the history of Catalonia.

I did not intend to make direct connection with the matter of the alchemists

To be more exact, if I referred to that chapter of "La onda", which is actually linked, but in a tangential way to Hendaya, it was simply to say how that reading of Laura led me or motivated me to look for more information about Catalonia.
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I said the above because the history of Catalonia is united to the history of the other Iberians.

Edit: grammar.
 
An interesting article on RT about some of the apparent similarities between the run-up of the manufactured maidan crises and what happens in Catalonia now:

https://www.rt.com/news/407015-catalan-democracy-video-maidan-ukraine/

Here is what Putin had to say about the Catalonia situation in his speech a couple of days at Valdai:

Putin said:
The situation in Spain clearly shows how fragile stability can be even in a prosperous and established state. Who could have expected, even just recently, that the discussion of the status of Catalonia, which has a long history, would result in an acute political crisis?

Russia's position here is known. Everything that is happening is an internal matter for Spain and must be settled based on Spanish law in accordance with democratic traditions. We are aware that the country’s leadership is taking steps towards this end.

In the case of Catalonia, we saw the European Union and a number of other states unanimously condemn the supporters of independence.

You know, in this regard, I cannot help but note that more thought should have gone into this earlier. What, no one was aware of these centuries-old disagreements in Europe? They were, were they not? Of course, they were. However, at one point they actually welcomed the disintegration of a number of states in Europe without hiding their joy.

Why were they so unthinking, driven by fleeting political considerations and their desire to please – I will put it bluntly – their big brother in Washington, in providing their unconditional support to the secession of Kosovo, thus provoking similar processes in other regions of Europe and the world?

You may remember that when Crimea also declared its independence, and then – following the referendum – its decision to become part of Russia, this was not welcomed for some reason. Now we have Catalonia. There is a similar issue in another region, Kurdistan. Perhaps this list is far from exhaustive. But we have to ask ourselves, what are we going to do? What should we think about it?

It turns out that some of our colleagues think there are ”good“ fighters for independence and freedom and there are ”separatists“ who are not entitled to defend their rights, even with the use of democratic mechanisms.

As we always say in similar cases, such double standards – and this is a vivid example of double standards – pose serious danger to the stable development of Europe and other continents, and to the advancement of integration processes across the world.

At one time the apologists for globalisation were trying to convince us that universal economic interdependence was a guarantee against conflicts and geopolitical rivalry. Alas, this did not happen. Moreover, the nature of the contradictions grew more complicated, becoming multilayer and nonlinear.

Indeed, while interconnectedness is a restraining and stabilising factor, we are also witnessing an increasing number of examples of politics crudely interfering with economic, market relations. Quite recently there were warnings that this was unacceptable, counterproductive and must be prevented. Now those who made such warnings are doing all this themselves. Some do not even conceal that they are using political pretexts to promote their strictly commercial interests. For instance, the recent package of sanctions adopted by the US Congress is openly aimed at ousting Russia from European energy markets and compelling Europe to buy more expensive US-produced LNG although the scale of its production is still too small.

Attempts are being made to create obstacles in the way of our efforts to forge new energy routes – South Stream and Nord Stream – even though diversifying logistics is economically efficient, beneficial for Europe and promotes its security.

Let me repeat: it is only natural that each state has its own political, economic and other interests. The question is the means by which they are protected and promoted.

In the modern world, it is impossible to make a strategic gain at the expense of others. Such a policy based on self-assurance, egotism and claims to exceptionalism will not bring any respect or true greatness. It will evoke natural and justified rejection and resistance. As a result, we will see the continued growth of tensions and discord instead of trying to establish together a steady and stable international order and address the technological, environmental, climate and humanitarian challenges confronting the entire human race today.
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Later Putin answered in more detail after the following question:

Rein Muellerson: Thank you. My question is to President Putin. In your speech, you mentioned Catalonia. My observations suggest that, normally, independence is achieved then and there, where some major powers or at least regional players are interested in this independence or in case no one pays attention to this.

In your speech in March 2014 with respect to Crimea, where, by the way, I was a month ago and I must say I really enjoyed it, you cited the advisory opinion of the International Court on Kosovo. The declaration of Kosovo's independence indeed violates international law. The aerial bombings of Serbia due to Kosovo were also in breach of international law.

It seems to me that Kosovo opened up Pandora's box. The independence of the Kurds in Iraq meets the aspirations of no one but the Kurds and perhaps also the Israeli interests. However, this is not enough. The whole of Europe and the European Union are worried about Catalan independence. Madrid is using force, relatively moderate force, against supporters of an independent Catalonia.

My question to you is as follows. Apart from following the principle of non-interference in the internal affairs of other states, how could Russia help resolve similar conflicts so as, on the one hand, not to encourage the “parade of sovereignties,” while, on the other hand, helping ethnic groups and minorities, whose aspirations are not met by the authorities? What would be Russia's position in such cases?

One thing I cannot help mentioning. You spoke of the “turbulent” 90s and I recalled how Andrei Kozyrev once told President Nixon that Russia had no national interests, only common human interests. Nixon shook his head.

Thank you.
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Here is what Putin answered:

Putin said:
Vladimir Putin: This shows that Nixon has a head, while Mr Kozyrev, unfortunately, has not. He has a cranium but no head as such.

As for the “parade of sovereignties,” as you said, and our attitude towards this… Actually, I believe, on a global scale, the creation of mono-ethnic states is not a panacea against possible conflicts, but just the opposite. Because after various partitions and sovereignties, the creation of mono-ethnic states might lead to clashes in the fight for the realisation of the interests of the newly established mono-ethnic states. That is what is likely to happen.

This is why people who live in a unified state within common boundaries have a greater chance that their state will pursue a balanced policy. Look at Russia. Muslims constitute nearly 10 percent of our population, which is a lot. They are not foreigners or migrants. Russia is their only homeland, and they see it as their homeland. What has this encouraged us to do? I suggested that we seek observer status at the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation. This influences our domestic and foreign policies, and makes our policy better balanced and attentive to this part of the international community. The same is true for other countries.

As for the ruling of the UN court, I have it. I did not cite it so as not to waste your time. I read the ruling because I knew that we would touch on this matter. You are experts, and so you know everything about it. However, I would like to remind you. On November 8, 2008, the UN General Assembly adopted Resolution 63/3. Question: Does the unilateral declaration of independence by Kosovo’s temporary institutions comply with international law? This question was forwarded to the International Court of Justice in The Hague.

On July 22, 2010, after two years of deliberations, the Hague Court issued an Advisory Opinion that the declaration of independence of Kosovo adopted on February 17, 2008 did not violate international law. The court ruling concerns not just Kosovo, but also the applicability of international law to the declaration of independence by any part of any state in principle. In this sense, you are absolutely right that this broad interpretation does not apply to Kosovo. It was a ruling that opened Pandora’s box. Yes, you are absolutely right about this. Bull’s eye.

Look at what the court ruling of July 22, 2010, says. Paragraph 79: “The practice of States in these latter cases does not point to the emergence in international law of a new rule prohibiting the making of a declaration of independence in such cases.” Paragraph 81: “No general prohibition against unilateral declarations of independence may be inferred from the practice of the [UN] Security Council.” Paragraph 84: “the Court considers that general international law contains no applicable prohibition of declarations of independence. Accordingly, it concludes that the declaration of independence of 17 February 2008 did not violate general international law.” Here it is, in black and white.

How all the Western countries pushed for it and pressurised this International Court in the Hague! We know for certain that the US had a written recommendation for the International Court. The State Department wrote, “The principle of territorial integrity does not exclude the establishment of new states in the territory of existing states.” Below: “Declarations of independence can (and often do) violate domestic legislation. However, this does not mean that it is a violation of international law.” Further, “In many cases, including Kosovo, the circumstances of the Declaration of Independence can mean fundamental respect of international law on the part of the new state.”

Germany: “This is a matter of peoples’ right to self-determination. International law pertaining to the territorial integrity of states does not apply to such peoples.” They decided to declare independence, well, good for them. And the integrity principles do not apply to this state.

The United Kingdom: “Secession, or the declaration of independence, does not contradict international law in itself.”

France: “It (international law) does not allow, but does not forbid it (secession or separation) in general.” So here you are.

Then there was the reaction to this Court ruling. Here is what Ms Clinton wrote (somebody may have worked with her) after the ruling: “Kosovo is an independent state, and its territory is inviolable. We call on all states not to become overly focused on Kosovo’s status and make their own constructive contribution to supporting peace and stability in the Balkans. We urge the countries that have not yet recognised Kosovo to do so.”

Germany: “The consultative ruling of the International Court confirms our legal assessment of the legitimacy of Kosovo’s declaration of independence. It reinforces our opinion that the independence and territorial integrity of the Republic of Kosovo are undeniable.”

France: “The independence of Kosovo is irreversible. The ruling of the International Court, which terminated the legal debates on the matter, has become a milestone and will allow all parties to dedicate themselves to other important issues to be resolved.”

Now, “other important issues” have arisen today, and today, when these “other important issues” have arisen, including in Catalonia, nobody likes it. Nobody! This is exactly what I called double standards. This example is the Pandora’s box that has been opened, and the genie that was let out of the bottle.

What is our position on this case? I said, I was saying, if you listened carefully, I was saying that we hoped that the problem would be resolved based on Spanish legislation and Constitution. I believe this is the end of it. The end of it. However, of course, we have to be careful in such issues and very sensitive to everything that is going on. We hope that everything will be resolved within the framework of democratic institutions and procedures; there will be no more political prisoners and so on. However, this is an internal issue of a country. I think this is enough.

Thank you.
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I think Putin pretty much nailed what is happening in Catalonia and especially in what he said here:

"Actually, I believe, on a global scale, the creation of mono-ethnic states is not a panacea against possible conflicts, but just the opposite. Because after various partitions and sovereignties, the creation of mono-ethnic states might lead to clashes in the fight for the realisation of the interests of the newly established mono-ethnic states. That is what is likely to happen.
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And that this seems to be a goal of some forces around the globe. It is also pretty much in accord to what was discussed on the SOTT Radio Show about Catalonia, Kurdistan and other separation movements all around the world today. Putin mentions crimea in a different context (according to international law) and the justified reasons of the people there to resist tyrannical overloads.

Let me repeat: it is only natural that each state has its own political, economic and other interests. The question is the means by which they are protected and promoted.

[...]

In the modern world, it is impossible to make a strategic gain at the expense of others. Such a policy based on self-assurance, egotism and claims to exceptionalism will not bring any respect or true greatness.It will evoke natural and justified rejection and resistance.
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Pretty much what the SOTT guys gathered at the end of the show. This separation business we see today, has at least in part (but not in all cases: see crimea for example) a definite (artificially fueled) flavour of identity politics, which goal it is to destabilize countries and create resentment and friction between the populations. Russia is a good example (as was brought up on SOTT too) how such artificially fueled conflicts can be solved within the framework of the existing country by negotiating with local minorities for better conditions, replacing corrupt officials, and building a good and fair social and infrastructure. Chechnya is a good example there. The West tried to destabilize russia by fueling a separation movement in Chechnya (and other parts of russia). That already started before Putin got into power, then, in a fairly short time, he managed to pacify those regions by investing heavily in dialog, economy and social and infrastructure building campaigns. He managed to make everyone happy (or at least much happier then before) there by fair and equal treatment. The result was that the people didn't feel a need anymore to be separated from Russia, but on the contrary, where happy to be a part of it and contributing usefully to the whole, which is russia.

I think we don't have to look far to see how such things can be mastered without destroying whole nations and their ethnic and cultural history and background: russia. A population that is being stripped of their history and cultural background, by nefarious global players, is a population strongly at risk for chaos and bloody violence, as well as loosing an objective look at reality. People like that are also much easier to control. Unfortunately, that is what we see today, pretty much globally, with a few exceptions like russia, a country that tries hard to stay on rational course, and so far is doing a pretty amazing job, considering the manifold difficulties it is facing.
 
Pashalis said:
And that this seems to be a goal of some forces around the globe. It is also pretty much in accord to what was discussed on the SOTT Radio Show about Catalonia, Kurdistan and other separation movements all around the world today. Putin mentions crimea in a different context (according to international law) and the justified reasons of the people there to resist tyrannical overloads.
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So a question might be
at what point , and who will judge that Madrids actions have become
Tyrranical , thus Justifying a call for Independence.

Also I would point out that the 1978 constitution was a choice between the continuation of a fascist Junta,

or the same men change from Uniform to Suits ,
and call themselves a democracy Under a King
who was himself democratically OUSTED by the Spanish people.

It is perhaps no surprise that Putin does not want to mention the Spanish republic of the 1930's.
( Not a Good time for russia with the Famine and the Great Terror )
after the part stalin played in destroying it.
 
SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
Pashalis said:
And that this seems to be a goal of some forces around the globe. It is also pretty much in accord to what was discussed on the SOTT Radio Show about Catalonia, Kurdistan and other separation movements all around the world today. Putin mentions crimea in a different context (according to international law) and the justified reasons of the people there to resist tyrannical overloads.
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So a question might be
at what point , and who will judge that Madrids actions have become
Tyrranical , thus Justifying a call for Independence.

Also I would point out that the 1978 constitution was a choice between the continuation of a fascist Junta,

or the same men change from Uniform to Suits ,
and call themselves a democracy Under a King
who was himself democratically OUSTED by the Spanish people.

It is perhaps no surprise that Putin does not want to mention the Spanish republic of the 1930's.
( Not a Good time for russia with the Famine and the Great Terror )
after the part stalin played in destroying it.
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Hello SocietyoftheSpectacle, with all due respect I would like to tell you that, in my opinion, your emotions are running wild on this subject and I infer after reading all your comments in this thread that you are in the pro independence side.

I do not find that wrong per se but please be aware that this is not a black and white subject and imo there are more angles to have a look on.

Here https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,36274.msg735121.html#msg735121 you decide to insert a Estelada flag to end a post in which you recognize it's been an emotional day. I do not think it is a good thing to insert in a public non political forum like this because some people could think that this sott forum is pro independence by association. At the same time there can be people who can feel disturbed because you have not used the Senyera flag which is the official one. This is not my case. I am spanish but thanks to the info I have been gathering through the years specially here and in Sott news I am not pro flags but pro knowledge.

SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
Catalans I have spoken to,
Really just want a Good Accountable Govt.
Something many believe they can only get by breaking from madrid
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I find this comment quite naive but maybe you have not read a must book like Political Ponerology and articles about psychopaths. IMO whoever is thinking today, in 2017, that we just need a Good Accountable Govt. is either dreaming or living in La La Land. Of course I would like that too, but it is not possible in the conditions we are living today, fully rounded by Snakes in Suits on charge of every important position of power.

SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
I Live in Barcelona, and Know of at least one old lady who did not vote for fear of the Police.
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So? That was not a problem, some people could vote twice.

SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
It is to be conjectured that these Companies who are so quick to take the Francoist Madrid Side, might well have sent a friendly memo to their workers reminding them of the facial recognition technology that exists today, and that it would be illegal and disobedient to vote.
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What does this mean? Why do you speak about Franco who died more that 40 years ago? I am 39 years old and I don't care about Franco, why do you? Even if the actual government and its opposition are the ones who are been mostly governing Spain since Franco's death, do you think the conditions are the same than then?

SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
One of the best Video backgrounds i have seen is the one below. Incidentally , to appreciate the contempt spanish have for catalans. I was told this story by a guy at the independence rally on tuesday.
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I am Spanish. I live in La Rioja, one of the smallest communities. I do not have contempt for catalans. I agree there has been a lot of propaganda these last 10 years on msm and it is very difficult either for a catalan or for another spanish citizen to not have an opinion about the subject. Sometimes this opinion is emotional and sometimes is well balanced, but be careful of extremisms and generalizations.

SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
When mario Rajoy had to appear before the Judges to give evidence in a Corruption scandal he said,
" Dont look in my pockets ,
look in the catalans pockets"

The case concerned a PP ruling party Slush Fund based in switzerland.
An odd remark then, typical of spanish arrogance .
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Probably the quote referred to the 3% ilegal funding case in Catalonia's main political party CIU. BTW, I know spanish people who are arrogant and many who are not, either if they are from La Rioja, Madrid or Catalonia.
SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
Alternative political parties in Spain are sponsored and/or courtesy of Soros money.

has anyone got any proof of this ,
other than a 1 off payment of 25'000 euros to a think tank.
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Maybe you should do the search by yourself. Es.sott.net is a good start.

SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
Russia Today is just trying to Stir trouble,
It's what they do,
and is almost as bad as Julian Assanges Tweet , recommending Catalunya
Mobilise it's 1 million fighting age men.

It's sad bu inevitable to see big interests trying to push from the sides.
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FYI, this is the comment that motivated me to write you these comments. Here I infer you are a long way wrong or so blinded that you cannot see reality any more. I am following RT regularly and I do not see that they like to "stir trouble" but the opposite by giving light in the form of objective info in some subjects. I agree with you that Assange's tweets are provocateurs.

SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
Im sorry ,
I'll explain.
I thought the Statement showed Julian Assange was trying to make trouble.
War mongering a little.

Laura appeared a little sceptical that Julian and RT would stir trouble,
So I posted Julians Tweet.

I have only heard calls for total non violence by catalans.
Today I was speaking to an 80 year old lady and she described the pressure of FEAR everyone was under to
sign the referendum of 1974.

Restoring the King after he was democratically OUSTED in 1933.

Simply put , I dont trust Julian assange.
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I think Laura had the same thought I had about you comment about RT, not about Assange's tweet.

Again you bring to the present past things like 1974, 1933, pressure of Fear, everyone, and a twist like "I have only heard calls for total non violence by catalans." I could watch on TV 3 Guardia Civil cars quite broken by pro independence catalan people.

SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
How will they run elections ?
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We will see it.

SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
By banning the independence parties ?
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Who knows? We will see it.

SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
What if the Independence parties win an overwhelming Majority ?
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What if not? What if the elections are rigged as some people think it is what happened in Scotland? In any case, we will see it.

SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
The constitution of 1973 giving power to franco's cronies under a Restored Monarchy
was done literally under Threat.
A latin term Vi Coactus ,
describes that such a contract signed under duress is VOID at Law.
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I think the Constitution was signed in 1978, the year I was born. Again you use a very emotional word like Threat.

SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
So a question might be
at what point , and who will judge that Madrids actions have become
Tyrranical , thus Justifying a call for Independence.

Also I would point out that the 1978 constitution was a choice between the continuation of a fascist Junta,

or the same men change from Uniform to Suits ,
and call themselves a democracy Under a King
who was himself democratically OUSTED by the Spanish people.

It is perhaps no surprise that Putin does not want to mention the Spanish republic of the 1930's.
( Not a Good time for russia with the Famine and the Great Terror )
after the part stalin played in destroying it.
Click to expand...

Again you use very emotional words: Tyrannical, fascist Junta. And I do not remember in my 39 years that the King has been democratically ousted by the Spanish people.

And you finish with a comment about Putin not talking about 1930's matter in Spain. Are you for real?

Well, and I will finish, from the bottom of my heart I recommend you to read as much as you can about the Catalonia subject on es.sott.net.

You can start with https://es.sott.net/article/55496-El-Maidan-catalan-Como-la-oligarquia-catalana-esta-usando-el-independentismo-para-controlar-a-los-catalanes
and all its links.

Maybe you will be able to read all of it to the end or maybe you will discover that you have a Sacred Cow, it is your decision. Have a nice day.
 
These are the details of application of Article 155:

https://www.rt.com/news/407388-spain-catalonia-independence-rajoy/

The Spanish government will administer Catalonia directly from Madrid subject to approval by the Senate, Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said at a press conference. He added that Madrid wants to curb the powers of the Catalan parliament.

Rajoy declared on Saturday that the government wants to dissolve the Catalan parliament and call a snap election to restore order in the region.

He said Madrid is not revoking Catalonia’s autonomy but merely removing local leaders whose actions were against the law. Rajoy said the government was seeking unprecedented constitutional authority to ”restore order” in Catalonia.

There is no country in the world ready to allow this kind of situation within its borders,” Rajoy said, as cited by AP. “It is my wish to call elections as soon as normality is restored.” The Popular Party led by the Prime Minister controls the majority of the Senate, and Rajoy himself has the backing of major opposition parties.

The government did not initially want or intend to rule Catalonia directly, according to Rajoy, but took this unprecedented step to ensure that public services and the economy remain functional.

Rajoy requested the Senate authorize him to dissolve the Catalan government. Central government ministers will assume the powers of Catalonia’s officials, Rajoy said.

The snap election will take place in six months, the Prime Minister said. The measures taken by Madrid are expected to be approved now by Spain's Upper House (the Senate) on October 27.

His cabinet has invoked Article 155 of the Spanish Constitution which allows Madrid to intervene and impose direct rule when one of Spain’s seventeen autonomous regions does not abide by the law. The measures will remain in effect until a new Catalan government can take office.

Reacting to the announcement, Catalonia’s vice president Oriol Junqueras promised to meet supporters at a protest “against totalitarianism” planned to take place in Barcelona on Saturday afternoon.

“Today more than ever, let’s defend democracy and civil and political rights,” he tweeted.

Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont is expected take part in a protest later in the day and address the Spanish government's decision in a speech. Earlier, Puigdemont had threatened to call a vote in the regional parliament for an open declaration of independence from Spain.

Barcelona’s mayor Ada Colau, who is herself opposed to independence, also criticized the central government, calling its actions “a serious attack” on Catalan autonomy.

In Madrid Pablo Echenique, of the far-left PODEMOS opposition party, called for the ousting of Rajoy and his conservative government.

Amid the lingering dispute, Spain’s secret services said on Friday that a number of government websites suffered from hack attacks in recent weeks with cyber assailants posting slogans in support of Catalan independence.

On Saturday, a spokeswoman for Spain’s Constitutional Court told AP the body's website has been hit by a cyberattack which came at the time when social media accounts linked to the Anonymous hacktivist group launched a campaign to “free Catalonia.”
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Application of Article 155: The "very serious magnitude" of the economic impact of the independence

[google translation]

_http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/10/21/59eb20e446163fd13e8b462c.html
The Government warns that one of its main objectives is to curb the economic effects of "very serious magnitude" that the claimed independence of Catalonia would have for all of Spain [Read in PDF the arguments of the Government to apply article 155].

Thus, in the document of 11 pages in which the application of article 155 motivates the application that from the commercial point of view, the independence claims would mean for Catalonia the abandonment of the European Union and the exit of the World Trade Organization, becoming thus a third world country for the purpose of commercial relations and to which, therefore, the autonomous Common Customs Tariff duties would be applied, in addition to customs border controls.

All this would mean an enormous loss of competitiveness, growth and employment for an economy like Catalan whose foreign trade accounts for 70% of its GDP.

In addition, from the financial point of view Catalonia would immediately emerge from the Economic and Monetary Union losing all the benefits and protection of the facilities offered by the European Central Bank. As a consequence, it would be unavoidable for credit institutions to relocate outside their territory.

According to government reports, "capital outflows, together with the worsening of the balance of trade, would result in a flow of euros to the rest of Spain and the world that would prevent the de facto use of the euro as currency. Even the creation of a currency and its own central bank would be impracticable due to the high level of public deficit. Monetary expansion, disproportionate inflation and credit crunch would be irremediable, with consequent effects on consumption and investment".

From the point of view of public funding, the report continues, "budgetary tensions would be evident".

On the revenue side, "tax collection capacity would be very limited, both functional and effective, due to the erosion of tax bases in a context of economic contraction, the foreseeable displacement of people and social domiciles and the lack of transfers of Spain and the European Union. "

On the contrary, "expenses" would be increased by having to assume those hitherto borne by the Spanish State, which would oblige to issue public debt in the markets, a fact that would be increasingly heavy in a context of recession in which, in addition to the public sector, the financial sector would simultaneously be demanding funding. "

In short, independence "would mean isolating an economy that is now fully integrated in Spain and the EU." This would lead to an impoverishment of "between 25 and 30%" which would lead to an "unsustainable" economic situation.
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Miguel Ángel said:
SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
Catalans I have spoken to,
Really just want a Good Accountable Govt.
Something many believe they can only get by breaking from madrid
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I find this comment quite naive but maybe you have not read a must book like Political Ponerology and articles about psychopaths. IMO whoever is thinking today, in 2017, that we just need a Good Accountable Govt. is either dreaming or living in La La Land. Of course I would like that too, but it is not possible in the conditions we are living today, fully rounded by Snakes in Suits on charge of every important position of power.
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I have to agree with Miguel Angel's post here, which is a good analysis of the situation I think. We live in a time where ideologies are appearing everywhere. Is this a result of living so long under a pathocracy and the general degradation of real quality of life around the world, and particularly in the West? Maybe, but it is a pretty serious problem because all of these ideologies, in one way or another, aim to upend the 'status quo' and install...well what? Some ideal society? But how is that to be done in our current globalized world dominated by a pathocracy that will not stop at anything to maintain power.

The point here is that Catalan (or any other) independence is not a bad idea in itself or in theory, but in practice, in our current world, it seems that it will lead to a serious kickback from the established authorities and serious problems for the Catalan people and perhaps many Spaniards too as a result of serious economic consequences. So is willing to stand up and say "Independence NOW!" with all of that in mind? It is a difficult situation, and I don't think anyone here, with what we have about the world over the years, should be falling into the trap of being caught up in ideological thinking rather than thinking the issue through and attempting to be objective about any specific issue/situation.
 
Pashalis said:
Pretty much what the SOTT guys gathered at the end of the show. This separation business we see today, has at least in part (but not in all cases: see crimea for example) a definite (artificially fueled) flavour of identity politics, which goal it is to destabilize countries and create resentment and friction between the populations. Russia is a good example (as was brought up on SOTT too) how such artificially fueled conflicts can be solved within the framework of the existing country by negotiating with local minorities for better conditions, replacing corrupt officials, and building a good and fair social and infrastructure. Chechnya is a good example there. The West tried to destabilize russia by fueling a separation movement in Chechnya (and other parts of russia). That already started before Putin got into power, then, in a fairly short time, he managed to pacify those regions by investing heavily in dialog, economy and social and infrastructure building campaigns. He managed to make everyone happy (or at least much happier then before) there by fair and equal treatment. The result was that the people didn't feel a need anymore to be separated from Russia, but on the contrary, where happy to be a part of it and contributing usefully to the whole, which is russia.
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Yes, Chechnya is a good example. The biggest mistake of the current Spanish authorities is that they are trying to speak with the Catalans from the position of brutal power. They need to establish a civilized dialog, to find a mutually acceptable compromise. Otherwise the situation will only continue to deteriorate.

Speaking of Chechnya, it was basically ruined in the 90s during the Yeltsin's era. And Russia was one step from losing Chechnya entirely. But Putin managed to persuade the Chechen leaders to negotiate and reach agreement. Today Chechnya is one of the most prosperous republics of the Russian Federation. I think the central Spanish government really needs to work in that direction too, if they genuinely want to find a lasting solution.
 
Siberia said:
Yes, Chechnya is a good example. The biggest mistake of the current Spanish authorities is that they are trying to speak with the Catalans from the position of brutal power. They need to establish a civilized dialog, to find a mutually acceptable compromise. Otherwise the situation will only continue to deteriorate.

Speaking of Chechnya, it was basically ruined in the 90s during the Yeltsin's era. And Russia was one step from losing Chechnya entirely. But Putin managed to persuade the Chechen leaders to negotiate and reach agreement. Today Chechnya is one of the most prosperous republics of the Russian Federation. I think the central Spanish government really needs to work in that direction too, if they genuinely want to find a lasting solution.
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The Spanish government has MUCH to learn from Putin and his example! They should take to heart Putin's message in the Valdai club regarding Catalonia and Kosovo, and how the EU should have thought it twice before pleasing Washington.

Unfortunately, unlike Chechnya back then, Catalonia is the richest province in Spain, at least before the Catalonian Referendum. One of the pet theories out there was that this whole chaos was all a show and that behind the scenes, both elites had an agreement that was going to be made "public" in due time. Basically, that Spain would have to pay the Catalonians to be "first class citizens". Here is one article (a twitter rant) with more information [google translation]:

https://es.sott.net/article/55354-Roberto-Centeno-denuncia-Espanoles-en-pie-Rajoy-prepara-una-traicion-sin-limites

Roberto Centeno denounces: "Spaniards on foot! Rajoy prepares a betrayal without limits"

We publish the twitter of Roberto Centeno, Professor of Economics, the following shocking complaint:

The worst fears have been confirmed, the traitor Puigdemont declares independence based on a referendum that the coward Rajoy promised "urbi et orbi" that would never be realized, but that was made, and whose figures absolutely no one has contrasted, no one has checked how many voted , how many voted several times, or what they voted for. Such a gigantic fraud, so brutal that it would be unimaginable in any other country.

In the words of D. Antonio García Trevijano, the greatest political thinker in the Spanish language of all times, whose Political Theory books are the only ones of a current European thinker found in the Library of Congress of the USA, "never in the history of European nations there has been a President of Government as cowardly and as traitorous as Mariano Rajoy, who has not moved a finger before an open and public coup, or the persecution, intimidation and daily attack on the basic human rights of non-nationalist Catalans. "

Well, based on absolutely fraudulent figures, Puigdemont who remains at liberty despite the fact that he should have been arrested, has proclaimed the Catalan Republic - and now what does the King say ?, or is he going to be silent before the rupture of Spain ? - but then he has temporarily suspended it because he wants to negotiate. And what are you going to negotiate ?. A well-known journalist with preferential access to Moncloa has confirmed to me this afternoon what many feared but given the immensity of the betrayal that they suppose we refused to believe, Rajoy is preparing the greatest felony of the History of Spain since that of Count D. Julian on the third day of the battle of Guadalete when the Arabs who had already had 16,000 casualties were about to be defeated, as were the seditious Catalans with the massive departure of companies and giant demonstrations in Catalonia and in all Spanish cities.

Rajoy has offered to Puigdemont, which is why he has temporarily suspended the execution of the unilateral declaration of independence, a "limited" constitutional reform, in which: first, Catalonia will be recognized as a nation, something that has never been all its history, and it will be established that Spain, one of the oldest nations in Europe and the world, is not a nation but a nation within nation. Second, Catalonia will be provided with a financing model similar to the Basque quota. Third, a Catalan Tax Agency will be created from Spain, the second and third points will be a scourge for Spanish taxpayers and retirees of more than 60,000 million euros, since the quota and the Basque Tax Agency (the Provincial Council) suppose a quota of 20,000 million euros annually - equal to the pension deficit - and the Catalan GDP is more than three times the Basque.

Fourth, the Spanish state guarantees pensions in Catalonia, the highest in Spain with a deficit of 21.5%, which will be covered by Social Security. Fifth, the high point of the felony, Catalonia will have an external representation as an independent nation, will have its own embassies different from the Spanish ones, and as such will be integrated in all the international organisms, the EU, the Eurozone, the UN, etc. . Sixth, of the public debt of Spain that corresponds to assume an 18.9% equivalent to 300,000 million euros, they assume only a symbolic amount, as they said "the debt will be eaten by Spain with potatoes."

Not even if Spain had lost a war against Catalonia, the conditions that the traitor Rajoy will offer them would be imposed on us. Rajoy has agreed this with the traitor Sánchez, with the felons of the Episcopal Conference, and counts with the support of We can whose main objective is the destruction of Spain. And almost all means will support it.

We will start selling as a negotiation, when there is absolutely nothing to negotiate, and we will not explain the content until it is too late. That is why I shout from here: Spaniards on foot! If they went out into the street against the break of Spain with more reason, they must do it to avoid the ruin of Spain, the ruin of their children and that of the children of their children.
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A rant from start to finish. But some might ask if this leaked document is true and if true, is that what the Catalonian elite wants to negotiate?

This was published over a week ago. Some members of Mariano's Rajoy party went on twitter to say that it was false, or words to that effect, and that nobody should repost it. If anything, the rant reflects something that is in the mind of people: This whole mess is costing and will cost the Spanish (and Catalonians, unbeknown to some of them) even more money, regardless of the outcome. Like an economic war that can turn into a bloody mess. I guess we'll wait and see.

In the mean time, here is more details of the application of Article 155:

_https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/21/inenglish/1508587023_487115.html

In a news conference following a two-hour Cabinet meeting on Saturday, Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy announced that Catalan premier Carles Puigdemont, his deputy and all the members of the Catalan government will be removed as part of emergency measures to restore the law in the breakaway region.

He also said that elections will be held in Catalonia as soon as possible within the next six months. “It is my wish to call elections as soon as normality is restored,” said Rajoy.

Both these measures are a result of invoking Article 155 of the Spanish Constitution, an obscure provision allowing the central government to take direct control of a region’s affairs if the latter is in breach of the law.

This is the first time since the Constitution was ratified in 1978 that such powers have been invoked, and Rajoy said he had done everything possible to prevent this situation, but that he is now forced to act.

“There is no country in the world ready to allow this kind of situation within its borders,” said Rajoy, in reply to a question about whether he fears a backlash of pro-independence sentiment when the measures are rolled out.

The measures will not be implemented yet, as they still require approval by the Spanish Senate next week, Rajoy said.

The measures were drafted with support from the Socialist Party (PSOE) and Ciudadanos, Rajoy added.

Rajoy said that the decision to apply Article 155 is aimed at: restoring adherence to the law in the region; for elections to be held with normality; ensure institutional neutrality; maintain social wellbeing and economic growth; and ensuring that the rights and freedoms of all Catalans are respected.

“The autonomy of Catalonia is not being suspended,” he continued. “The people who have put it in risk are being suspended.

“The government had many chances before to apply Article 155,” he continued, “but we preferred to act with prudence, responsibility and common sense, trying to bring about a change of course. Things could not have been done worse than they have been done by the Generalitat in Catalonia in recent times.

“It was not our wish nor our intention to apply Article 155,” he told the press. “We are doing so because no government, of any democratic country, can accept that the law be ignored, that the law be violated, that the law be changed and that all of this is done with the intention of imposing their criteria on everyone else.”

He added: “These measures have been agreed with the PSOE and Ciudadanos. I thank them for their support, which I don’t interpret as support for the government, but rather support for the rule of law.”

The activation of Article 155 of the Constitution has only one precedent in the history of Spanish democracy: in 1989, when the government of Felipe González threatened to use it in the Canary Islands, but he managed to stop the fiscal rebellion of the then-regional government before taking the matter to the Senate.

The current process in the Senate will take a week to pass, which will give one last window of opportunity for the institutional conflict between Madrid and the Catalan regional government to be resolved without the latter’s powers being suspended.

The PP, PSOE and Ciudadanos all believe that the calling of early elections by Puigdemont would be the best response to the rising political, institutional and social tensions currently seen in Catalonia. But the regional premier has so far rejected that option, and is instead threatening to declare independence unilaterally in the Catalan parliament.

What’s more, Rajoy today stressed that only the Senate can now stop the application of Article 155. As such, the countdown has begun: the measures mediated by the Cabinet to take over the competencies of the Generalitat will go into full force in less than a week.

Control of public broadcasters

Óscar López-Fonseca, Madrid

The possible application of Article 155 in Catalonia next week will have immediate consequences in the regional interior department, starting with the removal of its chief, Joaquim Forn, from his position. The Spanish Interior Ministry will take control of the regional police department, the Mossos d’Esquadra, and will prepare to relieve from his post its current chief, Josep Lluís Trapero, who is currently being investigated by the Spanish High Court for offenses of sedition.

What’s more, the Civil Guard will assume control of the region’s Telecommunications and Information Technology Center (CTTI), a move considered to be the key to stopping the creation of parallel state structures by pro-independence forces.

Sources consulted by EL PAÍS have also suggested that the general director of the Mossos, Pere Soler, will also have to leave his role. Soler appears in Civil Guard recordings giving instructions so that the Mossos protected some of the key figures behind the October 1 illegal referendum. The government could also take control of the regional public television and radio networks in Catalonia in order to guarantee the transmission of “verified, objective and balanced information.”
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Needless to say, the Catalonians will react to this.
 
I'm borrowing this from my friend who posted on the facebook some week ago:

Catalonia:
https://youtu.be/wouNL14tAks

Venezuela:
https://youtu.be/jA5rxdMN_ds

Hong Kong:
https://youtu.be/0vvxlGUki7U

Ukraine:
https://youtu.be/Hvds2AIiWLA





Edit: Oops. I just saw the whole RT news which is similar.
 

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To make things clear, I don't think RT is "stirring trouble". I don't think Assange is doing that deliberately either, though I could be wrong. He seems to be rather naive about some things. It seems to me to be rather obvious that Spain's troubles vis a vis Catalonia are due to the same factors that operated in the Balkans, in some ME states, and now in the US; that is, Soros interference. Soros is also interfering in the larger EU situation but that is connected to the ME situation: make lots of refugees, flood EU with them, create chaos.

The Crimea situation was a bit different: it was a reaction to the Soros/US/CIA interference in Ukraine. Crimea really was just "going home". Same for Donbass: it wants to go home to Russia. Or so it seems to me. And that is pretty much where it belongs all things considered.

Catalonia, on the other hand, like California or ISIS is just cutting its own throat with the independence maneuver. And Spain is certainly not reacting well so things have just escalated.
 
Laura said:
To make things clear, I don't think RT is "stirring trouble". I don't think Assange is doing that deliberately either, though I could be wrong. He seems to be rather naive about some things. It seems to me to be rather obvious that Spain's troubles vis a vis Catalonia are due to the same factors that operated in the Balkans, in some ME states, and now in the US; that is, Soros interference. Soros is also interfering in the larger EU situation but that is connected to the ME situation: make lots of refugees, flood EU with them, create chaos.

The Crimea situation was a bit different: it was a reaction to the Soros/US/CIA interference in Ukraine. Crimea really was just "going home". Same for Donbass: it wants to go home to Russia. Or so it seems to me. And that is pretty much where it belongs all things considered.

Catalonia, on the other hand, like California or ISIS is just cutting its own throat with the independence maneuver. And Spain is certainly not reacting well so things have just escalated.
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Yes, and I think people are manipulated, again, into ideology-driven black and white thinking. You really need to look at the specific situations and at the current historical/economical/political context.

If you think that "all governments are evil" and "all centralized states are a work of evil" etc., you will then automatically embrace the dissolution of states in the name of "freedom" and "independence". But in today's interconnected world and in the current geopolitical situation, how could it be good to break Europe into little ethnic kingdoms? It seems this only increases chaos and suffering and binds large resources that could be used more productively.

I think, but could be wrong, that the Brexit situation falls into that category as well. It may not have been planned by the PTB that way, but it may be another expression of chaos manifesting itself. The EU is certainly not a very friendly or democratic organization, but I'm not sure if breaking away from it completely is a good answer. We kind of need to be pragmatic here and work with the situation we are in; even though we may think Europe would be better off with no EU at all, it is what we have now. And it seems to me Britain shot itself in the foot with the Brexit - a country that largely depends on the finance industry and economical integration cannot just saw off the branch it's sitting on. From what I hear from various sources, Germany might benefit a lot from this - many international companies are already considering moving their European HQs from Britain to Germany, not to mention the finance industry considering strengthening their presences in Frankfurt, because that makes it a lot easier for them to operate EU-wide (less legal hassle, free movement of services and workers etc.)

Crimea is totally different, because its succession was a reaction to Western aggression. Also, it was not about ethnic independence, but coming home, as Laura pointed out. Putin seems to be in favor of strictly respecting the integrity of states and sees the dangers in so-called "independence movements". It's just that he had no choice in Crimea and so used the West's own twisting of international law to make the necessary move. He would never have done this if it wasn't for the nazi-takeover in Ukraine, even though Russia would have benefited anyway by the integration of parts of Ukraine and the Ukrainians there would have welcomed it themselves.
 
I think the ultimate question for cases like this should be: Is this good for the people? Sometimes independence is good for the people, sometimes it's very bad. For Crimeans, it was absolutely good for them because otherwise they would be ruled by the disastrous neo-nazi friendly, NATO puppet government of Kiev. Instead they are prospering under Putin's Russia.

For the Brits, getting out of Europe was, in my opinion, just a different type of bad. If they didn't like regulations coming out of Brussels, they are going to hate going back to being ruled exclusively by the local British elite, and to possibly have much more American influence at home.

For the Kurds, it is a terrible idea at this point in time, because they are being used as pawns by US-Israel to hurt the local competition: Syria, Irak, Turkey and Iran. All those countries would become their neighbours and all of them would be hostile to Kurdistan. Some of them are also in very good terms with Russia. On top of that the Kurds can expect to have on their land a US military base or ten, and a heavy political influence from US-Israel. Is it worth it? Of course not.

For Catalonia, the region currently has possibly the highest standard of living of all Spain. Do they really want to risk it for the sake of nationalism, and do they really think that being an EU state on their own will get them a better deal? And that is assuming they can achieve this independence smoothly and that they can remain in fairly good terms with Spain, which is not going to happen. In fact, I don't see that independence happening any time soon. The local leadership knows it, so all they are trying to do is to bargain for an even better deal for Catalonia. However, Madrid also knows this, so they have decided to play hard ball by making use of Article 155 and thus give them no deal at all. We can expect to see at least much more unrest on the streets along with police oppression and violence. Was this really necessary?

Finally, like others have pointed out, it is worth remembering the hints that the Cs have given more than once in the sense that the US/CIA/Deep State (of which Soros is one operative) want to 'divide and conquer' Europe by creating enough chaos (e.g. with Muslim immigration) so that it can later intervene directly and 'save the day' on their terms. Much what they were trying to do in Syria. How could it be good to break Europe into little ethnic kingdoms? It wouldn't for Europeans, but for vultures overseas it would be a meal on a platter.
 
Pictures and videos of yesterdays demonstration in the streets of Barcelona:

https://www.rt.com/news/407412-catalonia-spain-reaction-powers/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=RSS
 
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