Milgram experiment re-enacted

Beau

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This is a video of a re-enactment of Stanley Milgram's experiment in people's response to authority figures. It was done on the TV show The Heist. I thought the first two comments below the video were quite worth reading as well (as opposed to most youtube comments).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6GxIuljT3w
 
Here are the final results of the overall experiment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p958woXcYcI
 
nf3 said:
Here are the final results of the overall experiment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p958woXcYcI
WOW! very impressive manipulation technique and disturbing how suggestible people can be mind-controlled to commit such crimes.
 
The second video is very interesting. It reminds me of a lot of the psychological programing thrown out in public at targets of Gang Stalking. Very interesting.
 
_http://www.cracked.com/article_16239_5-psychological-experiments-that-prove-humanity-doomed.html

I think most or all of these experiments have been mentioned in various threads at different times, but seeing them all together serves as a good reminder on the sad state of humanity.

Even disregarding for a moment everything else we've already learned about human nature from the studies of psychopathy and their effects on others, just looking at these experiments alone makes it very difficult to have any kind of "faith" in humanity. The experiments also help to put things like war in perspective - just a buch of naive and mindless sheep being utterly brainwashed by lies and self-appointed "authority" figures into senselesly slaughtering one another, while under the illusion that's all somehow justified, necessary, and/or beneficial.

I don't think these experiments prove that we're all psychopaths. I think they do show how very ponerized the common person is, how horribly undeveloped our empathy and emotional center truly is and on the other side of that coin how utterly irrelevant and weak/meaningless our subjective/artificial "morality" truly is.

The article also makes a good point about what a typical "non-comformist" is and how they are as delusional and no different than all those "conformists" that they laugh at. Also our illusions about our own "goodness" and "independence" and "freedom" are just that, illusions.

Gurdjieff is absolutely right - we don't DO anything at all. We are machines, and there is an overwhelming amount of evidence throughout all of history (not just a few psychological experiments) that proves this to be the case. And there is no possibility of neither personal nor global change until we understand this, and understand it well.
 
A rethinking of the famous Milgram Experiments

_http://www.alternet.org/story/126492/questioning_authority%3A_a_rethinking_of_the_infamous_milgram_experiments

Between 1963 and 1974, Dr. Stanley Milgram conducted a series of experiments that would become one of the most famous social psychology studies of the 20th century. His focus was how average people respond to authority, and what he revealed stunned and disturbed people the world over.

Under the pretense of an experiment on "learning" and "memory," Milgram placed test subjects in a lab rigged with fake gadgetry, where a man in a lab coat instructed them to administer electrical shocks to a fellow test subject (actually an actor) seated in another room in "a kind of miniature electric chair."

Participants were told they were the "teachers" in the scenario and given a list of questions with which to quiz their counterparts (the "learners"). If the respondent answered incorrectly to a question, he got an electric shock as punishment.

The shocks were light at first -- 15 volts -- and became stronger incrementally, until they reached 450 volts -- a level labeled "Danger: Severe Shock." The actors were never actually electrocuted, but they pretended they were. They groaned, shouted, and, as the current became stronger, begged for relief. Meanwhile, the man in the lab coat coolly told the test subjects to keep going.

To people's horror, Milgram discovered that a solid majority of his subjects -- roughly two-thirds -- were willing to administer the highest levels of shock to their counterparts. This was as true among the first set of his test subjects (Yale undergrads), to subsequent "ordinary" participants as described by Milgram ("professionals, white-collar workers, unemployed persons and industrial workers"), to test subjects abroad, from Munich to South Africa. It was also as true for women as it was for men (although female subjects reported a higher degree of anxiety afterward).

For people who learned of the study, this became devastating proof, not only of human beings' slavish compliance in the face of authority, but of our willingness to do horrible things to other people. The study has been used to explain everything from Nazi Germany to the torture at Abu Ghraib.

But what if Milgram's obedience studies tell us something else, something just as essential, not about our obedience to authority, but what it takes for people to resist it? Now, for the first time in decades, a psychologist has replicated Milgram's famous study (with some critical changes).

The bad news: His results are statistically identical to Milgram's. The good news: Contrary to popular perception, the lesson it teaches us is not that human beings are a breed of latent torturers. "Actually," says Dr. Jerry Burger, the psychologist who led the exercise, "what I think is that the real lesson of the demonstration is quite the opposite."

Replicating Milgram: 'I Can't Tell You Why I Listened to Him and Kept Going'

Burger works at Santa Clara University in Santa Clara, Calif. Like many in his field, he has long been interested in Milgram.

"Everybody who works in my area has his or her own ideas about why Milgram's participants did what they did," he says. And many have ideas about what they would change if they did the study themselves. "I have kind of had ideas like that forever … but it's pretty much been considered to be out of bounds for research. I think we all kind of assumed no one was every going to be able to do this study again."

Indeed, Milgram's obedience study was deeply controversial in its time. His deceptive methodology would later be criticized as unethical, and stiffer regulations concerning the psychological well-being of participants in such studies would follow. Thus, despite its enduring role in the popular imagination -- and relevance to the events of the day -- Milgram's study would remain firmly entrenched in its time and place.

Then, in 2004, the Abu Ghraib scandal broke. In the analysis that followed, many pointed to Milgram's findings as a way to understand what could have led otherwise-average soldiers to act so cruelly. At ABC News, producers decided they wanted to do an investigative report on this question.

"I think what they had in mind at first was some sort of journalistic stunt," Burger recalls "… to set up the Milgram study themselves." But ABC was advised not undertake such a project lightly. "Someone told them, 'If you want to do some sort of exploration of obedience, you need to talk to someone who works in the field,' " says Burger. "Somehow my name surfaced in this conversation."

When ABC called him, "I told them, 'No you can't replicate Milgram,' but I thought it was great that they wanted to explore these questions. … I was not interested in helping them put on some kind of stunt (but), it was something that I always wanted to do. And if ABC would foot the bill …"

It took months to set up the project -- recruiting and vetting participants, getting insurance, consulting lawyers, etc. When it came to conduct the experiment, Burger had implemented significant changes to Milgram's original study. One crucial adjustment had been to establish a threshold that did not exist under Milgram. Burger calls it the "150-volt solution."

"You can't put people through what Milgram did," says Burger. Revisiting descriptions of his subjects, he says, "you see that people were suffering tremendously." They believed they were torturing people, that people were "presumably even dying on the other side of the wall."

Thus, based on Milgram's original data, which showed that the majority of the participants who administered 150-volt shocks to their subjects were willing to go all the way to the highest levels, Burger decided that he would stop participants at the 150-volt mark, "the point of no return."

When the ABC special aired in January 2007, it took a predictably sensationalist approach. "A Touch of Evil" was the title, and foreboding music provided a dark backdrop.

The segment showed men and women of various ages, ethnicities and professions doing the same thing -- administering what they believed were electric shocks to a person in another room.

Often the participants would be startled by the shouts behind the wall, turning to look to the man in the lab coat with nervous expressions. But at his behest, they continued, even amid protests from the actor. ("Get me out of here, I told you I had heart trouble. My heart's starting to bother me now.")

In the end, 70 percent of the subjects reached the 150-volt mark -- a statistic basically identical to Milgram's. Unlike in Milgram's experiment, however, Burger told his subjects immediately after their time was up that the whole thing had been staged.

"I can't tell you why I listened to him and kept going," one participant told his ABC interviewer. "I should have just said no."

In the media and the blogosphere, the response to Burger's study has played into the notion that Milgram's findings, as true now as they were a generation ago, point to some intrinsic capacity for evil in human beings. It was more or less summed up by one blog's headline, which Burger noted, chuckling: "This Just In: We Still Suck."

'Under the Right Circumstances, People Will Act In Surprising and Unsettling Ways'

Although Milgram's research is understood mainly through the lens of "obedience," Burger believes that authority is actually not the definitive factor in the situation.

Just as important, if not more so, are the combination of factors that make up the scenario and which make subjects so dependent on authority. For example, despite being shown the "learner" strapped in before the experiment begins, participants are operating on relatively little information.

"They want to be a good participator, they don't know, 'should I stop, should I not,' " says Burger, "… Except there's a person in the room that's an expert, who knows all about the study, the equipment, etc … and he's acting like, well, this is nothing unusual … If the only information you have is telling you that this is the right thing to do -- of course you do it."

Participants are also absolved of any real sense of personal responsibility. "I was doing my job," is a common refrain. Burger notes, "when people don't feel responsible, that can lead to some very unsettling behaviors." And then, there's the high pressure created by the limited window of time participants have to choose whether to shock their "learner."

"Imagine if Milgram had allowed those people to take 30 minutes and think about it," says Burger. "They don't have time, and the experimenter doesn't allow them time. In fact, if the person pauses, the experimenter steps in and says, 'Please continue.' "

But perhaps the most important enabling factor is the fact that the volts go up in little by little.

"Milgram set this up so that people responded in small increments," says Burger. "They didn't start with 150 volts, they started with 15 and worked their way up … That is a very powerful way to change attitudes and behaviors." Most people, after all, don't start with extreme behaviors right off the bat.

"People didn't start by drinking Jim Jones' poison Kool-Aid," Burger says. "They probably started by donating money, or going to a meeting … you probably see that in most examples where you're scratching you head and saying, 'How can they do that?' "


In Burger's opinion, the significance of Milgram's findings are widely misunderstood. "The point is not 'look how bad people are.' … What we fail to recognize is the power of the situation and [that] under the right circumstances, people will act in surprising and sometimes unsettling ways."

Indeed, what these factors demonstrate is not how easily people will harm another person, but how quickly people will cede their own authority to another person when they feel isolated, pressured and powerless. The more controlled an environment, the more vulnerable a person is.

What Does It Take to Resist Authority?

Long before his most famous experiment, Stanley Milgram was interested in phenomena showing that people placed in the right situation will often do the wrong thing.

Writing in The Nation magazine in 1964 about a case in which a New York woman named Kitty Genovese was killed within earshot of 38 neighbors, none of whom intervened, Milgram wrote, "We are all certain that we would have done better." But, he argued, it is a mistake to "infer ethical values from the actual behavior of people in concrete situations."

"…We must ask, did the witnesses remain passive because they thought it was the right thing to do, or did they refrain from action despite what they thought or felt they should do? We cannot take it for granted that people always do what they consider right. It would be more fruitful to inquire why, in general and in this particular case, there is so marked a discrepancy between values and behavior."

One lens through which to understand this is politics, a profession notorious for its moral corrosiveness. In his book, Conservatives Without Conscience, John Dean, Richard Nixon's White House counsel, wrote about the Milgram experiment to explore how members of the Bush administration could be so complicit in the immoral policies of the so-called war on terror.

In a 2006 interview with Thom Hartmann, Dean explained:

"I looked at this because I was trying to understand, how do people who work at the CIA and know that they're part of a system that is torturing people in the Eastern European secret prisons -- and they're supporting that system, they're providing information or bringing it out of it -- how they do that every day?
"How do the people who work at NSA who were turning that huge electronic apparatus of surveillance on their neighbors and their friends, where's their conscience?
"And then I realized that this is a perfect example of the Milgram experiment at work. They're under authority figures. What they are doing is, they're haven't lost their conscience -- they have given their conscience to another agent, and so they feel very comfortable in doing it."


If Milgram's experiment showed a sort of moral death by a thousand cuts, the decisions, compromises and rationalizations that politicians make on a daily basis from their Washington offices that seem otherwise unfathomable indeed seem easier to explain, if not justifiable. After all, unlike the participants in Milgram's original study, who were paid $5 for their time (and notoriety), politicians in the White House or on Capitol Hill build their careers on decisions that can destroy human beings. Whether in Iraq or at Guantanamo, the suffering on the other side of those walls is real.

But Milgram has much to teach us, too, about what it takes to resist powerful governments and their destructive policies. It's not easy, and the stakes can be high.

Writing about war resisters in The Nation in 1970, Milgram noted, "Americans who are unwilling to kill for their country are thrown into jail. And our generation learns, as every generation has, that society rewards and punishes its members not in the degree to which each fulfills the dictates of individual conscience but in the degree to which the actions are perceived by authority to serve the needs of the larger social system. It has always been so."

But while Milgram so effectively demonstrated the challenge of defying authority, he also showed that subjects were far more likely to do it when they saw other people doing it. He wrote in The Perils of Obedience, "The rebellious action of others severely undermines authority."

"In one variation, three teachers (two actors and a real subject) administered a test and shocks. When the two actors disobeyed the experimenter and refused to go beyond a certain shock level, 36 of 40 subjects joined their disobedient peers and refused as well."

Put in a political context, this is perhaps the most important lesson Milgram has to teach us. The best hope people have of resisting an oppressive system is to validate their experiences alongside other people. There is no more basic antidote to authoritarianism than support, solidarity and community.

Milgram wrote, "When an individual wishes to stand in opposition to authority, he does best to find support for his position from others in his group. The mutual support provided by men for each other is the strongest bulwark we have against the excesses of authority."
 
Re: A rethinking of the famous Milgram Experiments

Recently Australia became the world's sixth highest arms importer.

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/apr/03/australias-arms-imports-surge-after-costly?CMP=ema_632

When you consider that Australian's pay for this through tax, and many do so despite their moral conviction not to participate in war, there's a sense of being complicit and so led to act outside of our own moral parameters as Milgram's experiments shows (under the certain conditions). This condition it seems also gives us the impression that we have no responsibility for this, that it is an authority that makes the decisions for us and we can just passively contribute money (tax) under threat of punishment for not doing so. In a lot of ways its a similar thing replicated across the world.
 
Re: A rethinking of the famous Milgram Experiments

alkhemst said:
Recently Australia became the world's sixth highest arms importer.

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/apr/03/australias-arms-imports-surge-after-costly?CMP=ema_632

When you consider that Australian's pay for this through tax, and many do so despite their moral conviction not to participate in war, there's a sense of being complicit and so led to act outside of our own moral parameters as Milgram's experiments shows (under the certain conditions). This condition it seems also gives us the impression that we have no responsibility for this, that it is an authority that makes the decisions for us and we can just passively contribute money (tax) under threat of punishment for not doing so. In a lot of ways its a similar thing replicated across the world.

I find this interesting, since Australians do not have "The right to bear arms", and all shooters are tightly regulated. Maybe the type of arms they are importing are of the military type for use in overseas countries where Oz is currently engaged.
 
Re: A rethinking of the famous Milgram Experiments

MusicMan said:
alkhemst said:
Recently Australia became the world's sixth highest arms importer.

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/apr/03/australias-arms-imports-surge-after-costly?CMP=ema_632

When you consider that Australian's pay for this through tax, and many do so despite their moral conviction not to participate in war, there's a sense of being complicit and so led to act outside of our own moral parameters as Milgram's experiments shows (under the certain conditions). This condition it seems also gives us the impression that we have no responsibility for this, that it is an authority that makes the decisions for us and we can just passively contribute money (tax) under threat of punishment for not doing so. In a lot of ways its a similar thing replicated across the world.

I find this interesting, since Australians do not have "The right to bear arms", and all shooters are tightly regulated. Maybe the type of arms they are importing are of the military type for use in overseas countries where Oz is currently engaged.

Its just for military, there's a bit of paranoia in the MSM around being prepared for China as if its an imminent aggressor, and so we need to increase military spending. In the end its just more of tje same old military industrial complex playing out stronger down under.
 
Researchers have replicated Milgram experiment

Researchers have replicated a notorious social experiment that claimed to explain the rise of fascism

Remember that study from psychology class where participants were willing to shock people with excessively high voltage, just because a researcher told them to?

Well, a new paper published March 14 just announced that the famous Milgram Experiment has been replicated in Poland over 50 years since its inception in the US. It’s been replicated before, but this is the first time any effort to do so has involved both men and women in shock-giving and shock-receiving roles. The goal: to evaluate whether participants are more or less likely to shock a woman than a man.

The social psychologists at SWPS University of Social Sciences and Humanities in Poland were driven to undertake this project in part because of the “the unique history of the countries in the region” the authors write. Poland’s history of fascist German occupation, “made the issue of obedience towards authority seem exceptionally interesting to us.”

Unfortunately, they found that since World War II, people have remained, shall we say, shockingly compliant.

Stanley Milgram, a Yale University psychologist who studied justifications for acts of genocide during the Nuremberg War Criminal Trials, began experiments on obedience in 1961, a year after Adolf Eichmann’s trial in Jerusalem. He sought to answer this question: “Could it be that Eichmann and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could we call them all accomplices?”
Milgram tested how willing participants playing the role of a “teacher” would be to deliver increasingly intense electric shocks to a person playing a “learner,” at the encouragement of a researcher. Milgram’s participants—all men—believed they were shocking a real person, as recorded shouts of pain were played, though no one was actually shocked. This deception, and the psychological danger it subjected participants to, has incited extensive ethical criticism.

Milgram’s obedience experiments included many variations and over 700 participants—some of whom refused to inflict shock entirely, under any circumstance. But arguably the most famous version was Experiment No. 2, undertaken in 1974.

In No. 2, Milgram used a shock operator with 10 buttons, instead of the 30 used in his other experiments—in other words, it didn’t go to as high a shock level. Of the 40 participants in this experiment, 34—or 85%—were willing to administer level-10 shock. Milgram’s researcher then asked these 34 participants to use the 30-button operator, to see how high they’d go; 26 of the 34—or about 65%—went on to administer the potentially fatal level-30 shock.

This is also the experiment recently replicated in Poland—with a few key differences.

The SWPS social psychologists recruited 80 participants (40 men, 40 women), between 18 and 69 years old. Importantly, unlike previous Milgram replications, this study put women in the shock-receiving, or “learner” role. “We thought that shocking a woman with electricity is a more urgent violation of cultural norms than shocking a man with electricity,” Dariusz Doliński, a co-author of the study, writes via email. “Traditional European and North American norms (collectively ‘Western’) assume that men are obliged to behave nobly toward women, and thus to avoid causing them harm, both in word and in deed.”

In an effort towards a more ethical study design, the shock machine the Polish researchers used had only 10 buttons. And while participants in the recent Poland study believed they were shocking real people—the researchers exhorted them with prompts like “It is absolutely essential that you continue”—they also signed an informed-consent form stating that they could interrupt participation at any moment. The right to withdraw was not explicitly stated in Milgram’s experiments.

While the ethics of the methodology may have improved since Milgram, our willingness to obey has not. A striking 90% of participants were willing to shock the “learner” to level 10, the highest level in the experiment. These results align with those of Milgram’s 1974 Experiment No. 2.

Whether or not the gender of the “learner” mattered remains unclear. “Although the number of people refusing to carry out the commands of the experimenter was three times greater when the student was a woman, the small sample size does not allow us to draw excessively far-reaching conclusions,” the study explains.

Powerful as the results may be, this study, like all Milgram replicas, ought to be viewed skeptically. “One thing is certain,” the authors write in the study, “since the original experiments by Stanley Milgram, we have yet to find a successful way of reconciling realism with care for the wellbeing of study participants.”

Making participants deliver what they believe to be fatal shocks is clearly problematic, says Dave Nussbaum, an adjunct assistant professor of behavioral science at University of Chicago. And while this study used lower voltage levels to mitigate the potential psychological damage on participants, “that makes the results a bit less impressive, in that what they’re doing to the ‘learner’ is much less dangerous,” Nussbaum says.

Moreover, while Milgram explicitly attributed his findings to human obedience to authority, some psychologists question whether the study was really designed to study obedience, or whether, unbeknownst to Milgram, it was actually gauging other factors, like participants’ willingness to “help science;” this study does little to resolve these debates. And while Milgram’s experiments have been replicated many times, most have been in industrialized Western cultures, so we should be cautious before assigning universal social traits.

Ultimately, the most jarring element of this study is not that people are willing to electrocute an innocent human being just as frequently today as in post-WWII America—it’s that we expect humanity to behave differently. The painful cognitive dissonance is that we never think that we (and our loved ones) would ever obey inhumane demands—but if the majority of participants are willing to, that means we (and our loved ones) probably would, too. Social situations clearly influence and direct our behavior, sometimes for the worst. So the big takeaway question, relevant in today’s political climate more than ever, is this: How can we resist?

Source: _https://qz.com/932110/researchers-have-replicated-a-notorious-social-experiment-that-claimed-to-explain-the-rise-of-fascism/
 
Ultimately, the most jarring element of this study is not that people are willing to electrocute an innocent human being just as frequently today as in post-WWII America—it’s that we expect humanity to behave differently. The painful cognitive dissonance is that we never think that we (and our loved ones) would ever obey inhumane demands—but if the majority of participants are willing to, that means we (and our loved ones) probably would, too. Social situations clearly influence and direct our behavior, sometimes for the worst. So the big takeaway question, relevant in today’s political climate more than ever, is this: How can we resist?

Yes. Despite other scientists nitpicking about "does it really measure obedience", or "they knew it was not severe enough to seriously hurt the other person", the essence of the experimental findings provide a glimpse of a reality we would rather not acknowledge.

In instances of genocide/ethnic cleansing across the world this unsettling reality is exposed. People turn on their neighbors and butcher them in a frenzy that defies belief and then go back to their usual lives when things calm down again. Prolonged hystericization of society due to ponerization resulting in collective mob rampage can be designated as proximal cause. But the most basic level of prevention starts with taking individual, not collective, responsibility. Asking the question whether one personally is capable of acting in such ways can be a place to start. If the answer is a categorical denial " I will never do that!", chances of there being significant blind spots goes up. On the contrary, if one is aware to what degree one is capable of going down that path, then he/she has a better chance of avoiding it. Knowing one is capable of evil, even great evil, makes one heedful. And these Milgram like experiments are a good starting point in that regard. Thanks for sharing Altair.
 
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