Cassiopaea Forum

Science => Outer Space and "Inner Space" Sciences => Topic started by: RyanX on September 04, 2009, 07:58:57 PM

Title: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: RyanX on September 04, 2009, 07:58:57 PM
Iconoclast's question to the C's regarding water got me thinking about all things water and some of the past research I had done on this topic.  Anyways, I thought the theory of Primary Water probably deserved it's own thread. 

The Hydrological Cycle

Most scientists today understand that the water we use and drink comes from the hydrological cycle.  This is the cycle that involves evaporation, precipitation and then ultimately the accumulation in underground aquifers.  It is said that these aquifers that we drill into to obtain our water are supplied solely by water from this hydrological cycle.  This is why we are told to conserve our water supplies because the recharge rate of these aquifers from precipitation has a finite limit.  Not only that, but since the precipitation has to move through the sky, surface and into the ground, it is going to pick up any pollutants it encounters along the way, thus polluting the aquifers too.  This means water supply is not only a factor, but water quality is as well.  This is why fresh water is a highly contested resource at the moment worldwide.  I'm sure most people are familiar with this story in some form.

Primary Water Theory

There is some evidence to suggest that not all of the water in the world is subjected to the hydrological cycle.  Some of the earth's water may exist outside of this cycle, buried deep underground.  Water of this sort has been dubbed "Primary Water" because it is suspected that it originates through some chemical process deep within the earth.  So what evidence to we have that such a source of water might exist:

_http://merlib.org/node/5063

Quote
In 1896, Adolf Erik Nordenskjold, a Stockholm professor of mineralogy and Arctic explorer, published an essay, "About Drilling for Water in Primary Rocks,"8 which was to win him a nomination for the Nobel Prize in physics, though he died before the prize was actually awarded. Nordenskjold had spent years on rocky promontories on and islands off the Swedish coast, organizing the drilling of wells for pilotage stations that were forced to import water or capture rain. The impetus for his effort came from his father, Nils, who was Chief of Mining in Finland. He had told his son, with some awe, that while salt water never penetrated iron mines on the Finnish coast, even when they were below sea level, fresh water was always present on the rocky floors of the same mines!

Quote
The eminent mining geologist, Josiah Edward Spurr, in his two-volume treatise published in 1923, called attention to the fact that the existence of water as an essential component of igneous magmas had long been recognized. The existence was clearly shown by the vast clouds of water droplets that condense from the emitted vapor during volcanic eruptions. The fundamental idea that there is a thermodynamic cycle within the Earth that both produces and is fueled by water was still of concern at least up to 1942, when Oscar Meinzer, formerly head of the Groundwater Division of the U.S. Geological Survey in his book Hydrology (published in 1942), espoused the view that waters of internal origin are tangible additions to the Earth's water supply.

Fifteen years before the publication of his book, Meinzer in a long essay referred to huge springs in the United States that yield 5,000 gallons or more per minute. This phenomenon is not confined to the United States. One incredibly productive water source flowing out of limestone is the Ain Figeh spring that alone supplies water for the over one million residents of Damascus, Syria, and is also the principal source for the Barada River. A report on this spring by the World Bank reads:
The principal emergence for the spring which has been enclosed in a structure since Roman Times resembles an underground river several meters across which flows up and out of the limestone formation of the mountain. The total flow has averaged about 132,000 gallons per minute. The quality is very good, its temperature and pH are relatively constant (14 degrees centigrade and 7.9, respectively), its taste and color are excellent, and bacterial contamination at the source is practically non-existent.11
(The same report is equivocal about the origin of the massive amount of water that has been flowing from this spring for millennia.)

Quote
Engineers digging tunnels have also frequently been faced with an outrush of water from what had to be considered an anomalous or mysterious source, given the depth at which it was contacted. Typical was the Tecolote tunnel in the United States, which runs 6.4 miles through the Santa Ynez Mountains to transport water from the Cachuma Reservoir to Santa Barbara, California. In the drilling process, the work was impeded by subterranean water flows of 9,000 gallons per minute, some of which was cool and fresh, some hot and mineralized. What the city of Santa Barbara could have saved by now in water supply expenses by drilling to tap such water (at a cost orders of magnitude less expensive than the 1957 completion price of the tunnel, $40 million) is a matter for conjecture. This issue is at the core of financial considerations in development schemes generally.

Quote
Another anomalous episode, one of the strangest to occur in the annals of construction engineering, took place in Manhattan in 1955. An engineering firm had begun excavating for the addition to the Harlem Hospital at the intersection of 5th Avenue and 136th Street. On St. Valentine's Day, while removing a layer of hard rock only twelve feet below ground, workers were suddenly confronted with an enormous out-pouring of water, which rapidly began to fill the vast excavation. Pumps hurried to the site labored day and night at a rate of 2,000 gallons per minute to keep the working area free of water.
Particularly puzzling to engineers was that during the cold winter months the water maintained a constant temperature of 68°F and was so pure that hospital chemists who analyzed it certified it could be drunk without chlorination or other chemical treatment! A billion and a quarter gallons were pumped out of the hole until twelve stories of structural steel had been erected and several lower floors were decked with concrete slabs, which provided enough weight to hold down the foundation of the new building against hydrostatic pressure from this mysterious water.
Despite the fact that New York City has repeatedly been faced with serious water shortages over the past decades, no effort has been made to utilize the more than three million gallons a day that came out of the granite of Gotham's body near the Harlem Hospital, or to drill for more such sources. Trying to explain this over thirty years ago, Michael Salzman, then a professor at the University of California's School of Commerce, who had served as an engineer with the U.S. Navy's Hydrographic Office, pointedly wrote: "There can be but one reason why this water, despite its purity and constant flow, is not used, and that lies in the many fears associated with it, since its existence cannot be explained by conventional hydrologic practice."

Quote
[Stephen] Riess (1898-1985) was a Bavarian-born mining engineer and geologist who emigrated to the United States in 1923. While working in a deep mine at high elevation in the 1930s, after a load of dynamite had been set off in the bottom of it, Riess was amazed to see water come gushing out in such quantities that pumps installed to remove it at the rate of 25,000 gallons per minute could not make a dent in the flow. Staring forth into the valley below, Riess asked himself how water that supposedly had trickled into the Earth as rain could rise through hard rock into the shafts and tunnels of a mine nearly at the top of a mountain range.

The temperature and purity of the water suggested to Riess it must have a completely different origin than ordinary groundwater. Since none of the textbooks he had studied had referred to what seemed to confront him as an entirely anomalous phenomenon, he decided to look into it further. In 1957, after Riess had been working on the problem nearly two decades, Encyclopedia Britannica's Book of the Year ran the following statement: Stephan Riess of California formulated a theory that "new water" which never existed before, is constantly being formed within the earth by the combination of elemental hydrogen and oxygen and that this water finds its way to the surface, and can be located and tapped, to constitute a steady and unfailing new supply.

Stephen Riess then went on to make quite a name for himself in the field of water exploration.  It seems that he has discovered a number of such "primary water" sources in the course of his career.  A couple examples of ones that are still in use today are:

_http://www.geomantica.com/geom31.htm#13

Quote
Escondido, California
Riess and his successor, Morad Eghbal, each located several wells in the late 1970's on private property both for the personal use of the owner as well as for the commercial water development for surrounding towns that needed to purchase water. These well are in operation and producing today.

Cottonwood, Idaho
The city of Cottonwood was running out of water and the traditional, professional geologists the city had hired to find water declared that there was no hope of success. The city then turned to Stephan Riess, Riess immediately located two wells for them. The first generated more than 250 gallons per minute. The second, produced over 500 gallons pre minute. At the city's request, Riess returned to locate a third well for Cottonwood's future expansion. This well produced over 550 gallons per minute. All three wells continue to supply the city of Cottonwood today.

Another interesting fact about Riess was his work for the Israeli Government:

_http://merlib.org/node/5063

Quote
By 1958, Riess' exploits came to the attention of the Israeli government, which invited the mining engineer and geologist for an official visit to find water for the then-new city of Eilat on the Red Sea's Gulf of Aqaba. After a flight to Tel Aviv, he met with Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion and his advisors, who urged him to go ahead with his search as soon as possible. Less enthusiastic were a group of leading Israeli geologists, who, like their American counterparts, vigorously opposed Riess' theory and methodology of water development. "Only after a protracted session during which I explained it," Riess would later . relate, "did they agree that my proposal had merit." This was confirmed by Israel's chief water geologist at the time, Arie Issarof, who in a letter, wrote: "As a geologist who is occupied with water research in arid zones, I am fully aware of the limitations of our orthodox methods, in geohydrological possibilities which may be opening up before us while applying these methods. I decided, encouraged by my superiors, to cooperate with Mr. Riess' research for primary waters in our arid zones." High in the mountainous country along the Israel-Jordan border, Riess located the first of several wells about a mile and a half from Eilat itself. As Meir Ben-Dov wrote in the Jerusalem Post:

The site chosen is where a fivemeter- wide cleft, running vertically through the mountain, is crossed at right angles by a similar cleft, hardly twenty centimeters across. The bowels of the earth in erupting have filled these clefts with an igneous intrusion of a sort, soapy-feeling, mottled brown rock called gabbro. The drill slowly worked its way downward, alternately in igneous intrusion and again in granite as the cleft in the rock snaked its way downward.

During the work, problems linked to cave-ins and the jamming of drill pieces beyond the Israeli drilling team's experience were finally solved when Riess' associate, Jim Scott, who had worked with him on many wells over the vears, was sent to Israel to supervise operations.
On May 29, 1959, the Jerusalem Post published an estimate that the amount of water struck in the Riess located wells was enough to supply a city of more than 100,000 persons including industry, air-conditioning, parks, gardens, and a dozen outlying villages. Analysis of the water, stated the newspaper, revealed that the Eilatis, used to drinking water with 3,000 parts per million of dissolved mineral salts (TDS), now had a supply with only 1/6 that amount of TDS. For his work in Israel, Ben-Gurion presented Riess with a medal and his wife with a sterling silverbound copy of the Talmud in English.

To me, this shows that the elite know that this theory has merit.  Perhaps mainstream hydrology is more or less a ponerized front, acting to keep us in the dark regarding other water sources that may bring more health and freedom to the world?  For the most part mainstream hydrology is correct in it's assumptions about where to look for water, but they have neglected to study some pretty important anomalies as the above shows.

Possible Mechanism of Generating Primary Water

So the next big question is how could water form beneath the surface of the earth and what other evidence shows that this "Primary water", as Riess and other have supposedly tapped into, actually originates from deep within the earth?

_http://www.eric.com.au/docs/water/primary/eric_primary_water.doc

Quote
If our planet did not have the ability to store oxygen in the deep reaches of its mantle there would probably be no life on its surface. This is the conclusion reached by scientists at the University of Bonn who have subjected the mineral majorite to close laboratory examination. Majorite normally occurs only at a depth of several hundred kilometres under very high pressures and temperatures. The Bonn researchers have now succeeded in demonstrating that under these conditions the mineral stores oxygen and performs an important function as an oxygen reservoir. Near the Earth's surface the structure breaks down, releasing oxygen, which then binds with hydrogen from the earth's interior to form water. Without this mechanism our "Blue Planet" might well be as dry and inhospitable as Mars. The findings of the Bonn-based scientists have been published in the journal "Nature" (doi:10.1038/nature06183).  Further information is at _http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-09/uob-lrf092407.php

Quote
Also, Japanese researchers say Molten rocks deep in the Earth’s interior may be surprisingly wet. From laboratory experiments, they have concluded there may be more H2O deep underground than in all oceans, lakes, and rivers combined.  The scientists first heated "mineral cocktails" to a white-hot 1600 degrees Celsius (2900 degrees Fahrenheit) and squeezed them until the pressure reached more than three million pounds per square inch (200,000 kilograms per square centimetres). Then they cooked the samples for an hour. The experiments replicated the environment and conditions deep in the Earth. Based on what they witnessed in their lab, the researchers concluded that more water probably exists deep within the Earth than is present on Earth's surface—as much as five times more.  "Our results suggest that the lower mantle can potentially store considerable amounts of water," said Motohiko Murakami of the Tokyo Institute of Technology, where the experiments were conducted.  "The presence of water in the crystal structure of [deep-Earth] minerals would be expected to soften the minerals and change their flow behaviour," he added. That, in turn, could affect how the innards of the planet mix and shift over time, and could indirectly affect conditions and forces near the surface, such as plate tectonics. Further information is at 
_http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/03/0307_0307_waterworld.html

As far as what Stephen Riess believed:

Quote
Research undertaken by Stephen Riess in 1934 showed enormous quantities of virgin water could be obtained from crystalline rocks. This involved a combination of geothermal heat and a process known as triboluminescence, a glow which electrons in the rocks discharge as a result of friction or violent pressure, that can actually release oxygen and hydrogen gases in certain ore-bearing rocks. This process, called cold oxidation, can form virgin or primary water. Riess as able to tap straight into formations of hard desert rock of the right composition and produce as much as 8,000 litres per minute.

Conclusions

It seems that there is enough evidence to conclude that there may be deep underground sources of water that defy mainstream hydrology theory.  However, the source of these waters and how they are formed or accumulated is largely unknown.  Based on Stephen Riess's work for the Israeli government, I suspect that it is known in some circles that water can be obtained from such sources, but it is largely hidden from most of humanity.  So as people fight over the remaining poisoned surface waters of the world, perhaps the elite are sitting in their bunkers deep underground drinking water that has been untouched by their pollutants?  Something to consider, I suppose.

I find a lot of similarities between the Primary Water theory and the Abiotic Petroleum theory.  It seems that mainstream science wants to hang on to the assumption that the Earth is simply a dead rock floating through space that accidentally managed to spawn life.  Water couldn't have sprang forth from the earth itself, it had to be deposited by comets or externally somehow.  That's not to say some water didn't arrive here externally, but to say this is the only way is quite a limited assumption.  The theory of Primary Water, like the Abiotic Petroleum theory suggests that perhaps the Earth has it's own internal mechanisms for supplying its needs and the needs of its lifeforms. 

I would be interested to hear how geologists or hydrologists reconcile some of these groundwater anomalies with the current theories on groundwater.  Maybe this is all wishful thinking to believe that there is some largely untapped, unpolluted source of water still left in the world.  Even if such a water source exists, it might be that for the vast majority of people this sort of water will remain forever out of reach due to geological, economic or political factors.  I think it is worthwhile to consider the possibility though.
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: shellycheval on September 05, 2009, 03:25:18 AM
Very interesting--never heard of such a theory before, yet it makes sense.  I am drawn to the idea that that earth is able to provide for our needs.  Thanks for posting.
shellycheval
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: Rhansen on September 05, 2009, 05:25:46 AM
Quote
He had told his son, with some awe, that while salt water never penetrated iron mines on the Finnish coast, even when they were below sea level, fresh water was always present on the rocky floors of the same mines!
This isn't necessarily unusual. My understanding is that the salt water table is on a curve as it were. For example I drilled a municipal well on the northeast coast of Guyana back in 1990. We were located several feet below sea level and only a few hundred yards from the seawall. The salt water ceased at around 450 feet below ground surface, so that  portion of the hole was grouted (sealed) off. Drilling then continued to approx. 970 feet where fresh water was obtained in a sand formation.

One logistical problem I can see with tapping an artesian aquifer that produces upward of thousands of gallons per minute is how to control/contain/divert the flow. There could be some catastrophic erosion damage in a matter of minutes.
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: Iconoclast on September 05, 2009, 12:03:07 PM
thanks for the input, RyanX!

if i understand viktor schauberger correctly, he makes a distinction between 'immature' and 'mature' water. and water that doesn't spring forth of its own accord and has to be drilled for, is immature.


he said this about high altitude springs:

Quote
Good, high mountain springs do not gush out of the ground due to excess
mechanical pressure (as has hitherto been assumed), but because of the
effects of negative pressure (suction)
. In the final analysis these are due to
processes of material transformation - combination of mechanical and physical
effects related to the non-compressibility of water at +4°C. This explains
the phenomenon of high-altitude springs that rise on mountain peaks or at
great heights, which are caused to rise to the surface through the action of
physical opposites.


have you ever looked into schauberger's theories? any comment?
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: RyanX on September 05, 2009, 04:32:15 PM
Quote
He had told his son, with some awe, that while salt water never penetrated iron mines on the Finnish coast, even when they were below sea level, fresh water was always present on the rocky floors of the same mines!
This isn't necessarily unusual. My understanding is that the salt water table is on a curve as it were. For example I drilled a municipal well on the northeast coast of Guyana back in 1990. We were located several feet below sea level and only a few hundred yards from the seawall. The salt water ceased at around 450 feet below ground surface, so that  portion of the hole was grouted (sealed) off. Drilling then continued to approx. 970 feet where fresh water was obtained in a sand formation.

One logistical problem I can see with tapping an artesian aquifer that produces upward of thousands of gallons per minute is how to control/contain/divert the flow. There could be some catastrophic erosion damage in a matter of minutes.


Rhansen,

Even this kind of amazes me that fresh water at such a depth can be obtained below the salt water.  If we are to believe the hydrological cycle, then doesn't water have to go from the sky to the surface to the aquifers?  In that case, wouldn't one suspect that the salt water would eventually penetrate the fresh water below?  In those cases, I don't know where the fresh water is coming from and I'm not sure if the current theories adequately explain it.  It certainly doesn't come from the salt water above, so it seems like it has to come from below somehow, or maybe some underground river?  All one can say is that the water at that deeper level had to come from some place other than the water that seeps from the surface directly above.  This, to me, seems contrary to the hydrological cycle theories.

I'm just speculating here and I think a lot of hydrology is mostly speculation anyways.  It's just knowing what works and where to find the water in a given area.  Every locale is a little different.

Then again, my knowledge of drilling is limited.  I tried attempting to drill a 120' well last fall with a group of friends.  We had constructed a home-made rig, but soon discovered that it didn't have the power to penetrate to any significant depth in hardpan and thick red clay.  I did a lot of research prior to this as to what depth the water was in my area, but it turned out technology (and money) was our limiting factor.  It sounds like you have much more professional experience in this area. 

From experience, I know what you mean about drilling and cave ins.  I don't know how one would deal with that problem unless they were already drilling through a pretty solid formation.  I think that may have been the case with some or all of Riess's wells from what I have gathered.   Even with those, I'm guessing they had to seal off sections as they went along just to keep some of the upper aquifers from contaminating the water below.  It would be interesting to hear a more detailed log of his drilling operations.

Quote from: Iconoclast
have you ever looked into schauberger's theories? any comment?

Iconoclast,

Yes, I have read a book on Schauberger, which I believe was a translated collection of his works.  I forget the name of the book offhand.  I do recall his mention of mature and immature water.  I can't recall if this immature water is exactly in line with the Riess school of Primary water, but it seems there were some similarities.  Your post got me thinking about Schauberger too.  After I get home this weekend, I want to go back over some of Schauberger's work to review.  I'll be able to write something a little more detailed once I do that.

Ryan
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: Rhansen on September 05, 2009, 06:49:25 PM
Quote
I tried attempting to drill a 120' well last fall with a group of friends.  We had constructed a home-made rig, but soon discovered that it didn't have the power to penetrate to any significant depth in hardpan and thick red clay.
I have never been around any home made drilling equipment but I think it would be difficult to build an inexpensive rotary rig that had much capability. Adding water to the borehole will help decrease tool friction and help to penetrate dense clays etc.
I think your best option would be to try a cable tool design (if you haven't already), or to try to rent appropriate drilling equipment.
links:
_http://www.consallen.com/forager/cable-tool/
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6N0x8BnOKE
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: SeekinTruth on September 08, 2009, 06:02:58 AM
Lots of interesting info. Thanks for posting RyanX.
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: Parallel on November 30, 2009, 01:47:40 PM
Swiss water diviner Hans Rieder seems to have a connection to these flows, no mention of primary water directly but the description matches.
_http://www.goldenmean.info/georg/
a german tv programme (dubbed to english) of an eritrean water project, scroll to midpage.
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: voyageur on April 24, 2014, 08:56:13 AM
Have reviewed again a little more intently, Viktor Schauberger's documentary film featuring his grandson in  - Comprehend and Copy Nature:


https://youtu.be/ItsSYwTSnTY?feature=player_detailpage

There were a number of things of particular interest:

1. In stream restoration work.

I've done a bit of this in time and never once did the understanding of what he did register in terms of hydrodynamics.  There are some good studies being done in Europe, however, I never see these principles applied in North America. It makes so much sense to ensure restored (degraded) streams are done by convex versus concave traditional methods, especially to foster good fish habitat and abate stream bank erosion - optimum stream health.

2. The overall impact of sloppy forestry.

The ability of woodland soils to absorb moisture are well documented and the lack therein (deforestation) effects. There was also recently an article on SotT concerning trees and their electrical connections, which may tie to some of his work.

3. Using cooper implements.

There are a number of examples shown where cooper tools are used. One such is a agricultural plow that he designed that ensures microorganisms are protected. No tests were observed as it seems there is only one prototype. The implement, in theory, is supposed to act like a mole in the soil.

4. Bending cooper pipe.

There are a number of ways to do this and it can be done by creating a jig and applying heat.

5. Funneling water (vortex).

Many examples; taking distilled water and adding to it (living water). Reducing algae in water. Salt water distillation (this was not well expanded upon with results, yet showed one trial example). etc.

6. His implosion device

Which seems to have been stolen (patents) just before he died; however, it was said he sold them at the 11th hour; highly unlikely.

There is also, Walter Schauberger, Victors son, the engineer who designs some very interesting things - one can read further here on his PKS (Pythagoras Kepler System) page _http://www.pks.or.at/menu_en.html



Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: Iconoclast on April 24, 2014, 10:05:02 AM
3. Using cooper implements.

There are a number of examples shown where cooper tools are used. One such is a agricultural plow that he designed that ensures microorganisms are protected. No tests were observed as it seems there is only one prototype. The implement, in theory, is supposed to act like a mole in the soil.

(https://farmhack.net/sites/default/files/golden%20plough.jpg)

from:
_http://eko-bg.com/1/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=96:copper-plated-pough-viktor-schauberger&catid=37:application&Itemid=55&lang=bg

Quote
This boost to soil fertility was decisively confirmed in field trials carried out in the vicinity of Salzburg in 1948 and 1949. Here fields were ploughed in strips, using steel and copper-plated ploughs alternately. The difference between the two types of plough and their effect became quite apparent. Where the copper-plated plough had been used, i.e. where there were no rust residues and where the water content and other energies of the soil had been increased, the corn stood about 6-8 inches higher with a much fuller head.

Some yields in the strips ploughed with copper-plated implements increased by up to 40% in comparison with the control strips where conventional steel ploughs were used. This remarkable increase could only be attributed to the use of copper in lieu of steel, because all other factors of soil chemistry, orientation, furrow width, etc., were identical.

In  one  experiment,  extraordinarily large ears of rye were grown carrying up to 104 grains each; a truly stupendous production, as is shown in fig. 19.3. In another parallel experiment at Kitzbuhel in the Tyrol high quality, well-formed potatoes were produced weighing up to 430 grams, nearly half a kilo, containing as many as 20 'eyes', those portions of the potato that can be cut off and planted separately from which to grow the next crop (fig. 19.4). With such potatoes more food would be made available, not only on account of their larger size, but also because of the greater number of 'eyes', and fewer potatoes would be required for replanting

[...]

Despite the obvious and proven benefits to the nation that would accrue from the use of this plough, it never went into production for, owing to the success of his Salzburg field trials, Viktor Schauberger once again came up against the corruption of politicians and the concerted opposition of entrenched interests. During the period immediately after the war copper was was a scarce commodity in Austria and, having been unsuccessful in obtaining further supplies through normal channels, Viktor approached the Ministry of Agriculture.

There he was told by the Minister that more copper sheet would only be made available to him if he compensated the Minister financially for the losses he would suffer if he supported Viktor, because at that time the Minister was receiving large bribes from various manufacturers of artificial fertiliser to promote the use of their products.

Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: itellsya on April 24, 2014, 08:04:32 PM
From my foray into Schauberger - 1 book and a few documentaries/lectures - i remember the following:

- Water travels in a spiral - the shape of rivers reflect this and should be adhered or they will die - see any river in a city which has been forced into a straight line, thus interfering with the natural flow

- Dead rivers can be revitalized by encouraging the 'bends', this promotes the 'vortex' motion it travels - possibly oxygenating it?

- Cold water is 'structured' where as warm water is 'lazy' - an example was the water in rivers which isn't shaded will become sluggish, when reaching the shaded bend it speeds up and has more structure - it is through cold water (optimal is 4degrees C?) that provides a 'structure' for the fish to 'balance' themselves

- tools which aren't copper 'cut' the energy structure, where as copper (due to electro magnetic effect?) reinforces resulting in increased productivity

- a drinking straw was designed using this vortex idea which 'cleaned' the water

That's all i can remember for the moment. I had hoped Scahuberger would be mentioned in this discussion :D and i'll go back over the information here and see what else comes up. I am so interested in if/how this can be applied practically. I didn't watch the 'wolves help rivers' clip, is it perhaps relevant here?

The back story is that he designed a log flume for some 'king of Germany' and he successfully demonstrated he could get all the logs down undamaged. As per Iconoclast, i remember corruption interfered with his progress...

edit: spelling

Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: voyageur on April 25, 2014, 06:19:43 AM


from:
_http://eko-bg.com/1/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=96:copper-plated-pough-viktor-schauberger&catid=37:application&Itemid=55&lang=bg


Thank you, Iconoclast. Interesting page, was trying to find the Fig.(s) mentioned, yet could not. It seemed when he was talking about either steel or cooper plated, they were of the same design (shown in your example), yet I'm not absolutely sure if he was just making a comparison to his design in cooper plating against a regular steel plough?

Moving somewhat away from massive soil tilled agricultural benefits for society, especially as our diets, seeds, land and animals (soils/erosion/ecosystems) have changed dramatically for ill, not to mention our statesman's insatiable drive for war over crop production and land values, agriculture does produces some interesting and beneficial foods also used as cleansing medicines. From the above where you quoted, the following was interesting also describing positive electrical conductivities vs. detriments to soils/water:

Quote
In Viktor's view the use of steel ploughs had many detrimental effects on the soil. As the steel ploughshares are drawn rapidly through the soil, minute ferro-electric and ferro-magnetic currents are generated in the interaction of hard steel against soil which decompose the nutrient-laden water molecules in the ground in a manner analogous to electrolysis, thereby discharging the soil's potential and reducing the surface-tension of the water molecule. This not only destroys the soil's subtler energies, but converts the nutritive elements or removes them from the mature water molecule. This was demonstrated in the discussion of the true facts of electrolysis in chapter 8, in which the end product of the process is pure juvenile water, which, as we have seen, is of little benefit to any organism.

In addition, small particles of steel are abraded from the shear-surfaces of the ploughshare, covering the ground with a thin film of rust. As we saw mentioned in the chapter on water supply with steel pipes, this provides an ideal breeding ground for the propagation of pathogenic bacteria, harmful to both soil and crops. This extra deposition of iron also increases the overall iron content of the ground and it is a known fact that soils high in iron are less water-retentive than soils where iron is not present, whereas soils high in copper have the capacity to retain greater quantities of water.

As an aside, here again above is that iron issue, this time in soil - made me think of the hemochromatosis thread.

Quote
Furthermore, as they move, the plough-shares produce considerable warming friction and soil-crushing pressure-waves in the ground, due to the relatively steep angle of the share. This destroys the delicate soil capillaries responsible for the delivery of nutrients and water to the surface as well as some of the micro-organisms that process them, thereby cutting off the normal supply from below and, in consequence, soil fertility drops markedly.

The application of fertiliser, natural and artificial, and other factors for the moment apart, the overall action of iron or steel ploughs is therefore extremely destructive of the natural balance of energies and potencies, to say nothing of soil moisture, and is yet another serious aberration in humanity's treatment of Nature, for as Viktor laments: Wherever we look, the dreadful disintegration of the bridges of life, the capillaries and the bodies they have created, is evident, which has been caused by the mechanical and mindless work of Man, who has torn away the soul from the Earth's blood - water.

Indeed.

In your link from above, noticed a small link to bronze or cooper tools for the home gardener, too: _http://www.implementations.co.uk/site/home
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: Iconoclast on April 25, 2014, 09:55:58 AM
voyageur: you are right of course - the stated agricultural experiments were done with a standard-shaped plow plated with copper, not schauberger's "golden plow" (which he designed later IIRC). i imagine the results would have been even better.
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: Mikey on April 27, 2014, 07:28:26 PM
Have reviewed again a little more intently, Viktor Schauberger's documentary film featuring his grandson in  - Comprehend and Copy Nature:

Interesting video! I came across Schauberger several years ago when this video was not yet available, and for me it contained additional data. The following occurs to me:

You can read about Schauberger's technology all over the internet, but as is usual, connected with a lot of disinformation. It is said that he built or helped building flying saucers / UFOs for the Nazis (just another variation on the famous UFO/Nazi myth), or that his turbine was a free energy machine.

The first myth undoubtedly stems from the fact that his turbine has a round shape and looks like a flying saucer. Maybe also the anecdote that during one of the first tests of the turbine it was damaged and allegedly 'flew apart'. One can easily see how such things could be spun into the UFO ridiculousness that we hear today.

Second (and this is only speculation on my part) I doubt that he had a working 'free energy machine'; this could also have been 'inferred' by wishful thinking of disinfo agents. He went to America to get support for his work. If he had succeded before, he would not have needed support from so far away. Basically, all that happened in America was that he was robbed of his intellectual property rights within a couple of months. He died a few days after he returned to his home. I bet this was a setup of rather dark forces (the usual suspects  which prevent useful information to be disseminated to a wider audience). Certainly Schauberger would have benefitted from reading Political Ponerology, if it had been available. I believe (again, just my current impression which might not be true) that his Repulsine was nothing more than a highly effective turbine due to low resistance due to geometry natural to the 'hidden laws' of flowing water. And it could not safely do more than approx. 2000 rpm before the test center (see video) stopped accelerating to not damage it.

This is NOT to say that Schauberger should be ignored. His ideas and technologies are highly interesting and deserve true, open research and wide dissemination in the world.
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: Pashalis on April 27, 2014, 10:20:34 PM
Here is the german version:


https://youtu.be/lBvSWdcfwD8
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: voyageur on April 27, 2014, 11:08:09 PM
voyageur: you are right of course - the stated agricultural experiments were done with a standard-shaped plow plated with copper, not schauberger's "golden plow" (which he designed later IIRC). i imagine the results would have been even better.

Ok, thanks, so the standard plow it was. It would have been interesting to assess those results from his GP plow. As an operational device, one thing I could see as hampering in some types of soils, would be the GP clogging up with stones or heavy organic matter.


Second (and this is only speculation on my part) I doubt that he had a working 'free energy machine'; this could also have been 'inferred' by wishful thinking of disinfo agents. He went to America to get support for his work. If he had succeded before, he would not have needed support from so far away. Basically, all that happened in America was that he was robbed of his intellectual property rights within a couple of months. He died a few days after he returned to his home. I bet this was a setup of rather dark forces (the usual suspects  which prevent useful information to be disseminated to a wider audience). Certainly Schauberger would have benefitted from reading Political Ponerology, if it had been available. I believe (again, just my current impression which might not be true) that his Repulsine was nothing more than a highly effective turbine due to low resistance due to geometry natural to the 'hidden laws' of flowing water. And it could not safely do more than approx. 2000 rpm before the test center (see video) stopped accelerating to not damage it.

This is NOT to say that Schauberger should be ignored. His ideas and technologies are highly interesting and deserve true, open research and wide dissemination in the world.

Have to agree here with your points. Perhaps with future engineering practices and materials, it (his Repulsine) could be seen as something that would be deemed exclusive enough to ensure the patents were secured just in case.
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: Iconoclast on April 28, 2014, 09:17:55 AM
i think the repulsine/flying saucer and a possible free energy device are the LEAST interesting things about schauberger.
his findings on the nature and movement of water, forrestry and agriculture are far more interesting.
he certainly changed the way i think about water/nature forever and i'm very thankful for that.
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: voyageur on April 29, 2014, 07:06:46 AM
i think the repulsine/flying saucer and a possible free energy device are the LEAST interesting things about schauberger.
his findings on the nature and movement of water, forrestry and agriculture are far more interesting.
he certainly changed the way i think about water/nature forever and i'm very thankful for that.

These were the main things that caught my interest with him, too, which of course starts to look into the spinning effects, gravity and the properties of water etc. It really is a fascinating subject and one that is not well studied it seems, since Victor put pen to paper and designed some very neat projects and theories. Water course and fluid dynamics (re fish habitat, drinking and stability) seems to be something not well utilized in practices, which is a shame, as the simplicity of its nature and environment, and the care it deserves, makes perfect sense. Nature shows us her secrets if one cares to observe as he did.

I've a feeling that some of our very old ancestors, reaching back many thousands of years, knew a great deal about water and its nature.
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: James R on May 02, 2014, 12:03:40 PM
Hi RyanX,

I have a little to add to your questions about Stephen Reiss.  My wife and I met him out of curiosity spurred by an article in the Los Angeles Times by Michael Salzman.  Salzman authored a book based on the work experience of Reiss as a mining engineer in Nevada.  Reiss was a most interesting fellow, and met us at the door while smoking what I would describe as a cigarillo (a cigarette size and shape with a tobacco leaf exterior.  He and his wife, Iris, welcomed us into his house in Ojai, California located on Sulpher Mountain Rd.  The house was located, as you would expect, at the top of the mountain where Reiss had drilled a well to supply him, his wife and a neighboring property with water.  He told us, during our conversation with him, that he was training his son-in-law to prospect for water using his methods.  Unfortunately I don't remember his son-in-laws name.  If you're really interested, and you're in the general area, you might find out more about Stephen Reiss by visiting Ojai.  Perhaps the Ojai Valley Chamber of Commerce might be able to provide you with information by contacting them over the Internet.

One of the things we learned about him was that he was educated in Switzerland, and that one of his professors there was Albert Einstein.  Another professor, as he explained it, had shown in his laboratory how to produce crude oil, demonstrating how the Earth does so.  It is NOT the result of dead dinosaurs.  He also mentioned some of the wells he had drilled, one in the city of Simi Valley and another at the home of the Sparlettes Water Company owner in Ramona, CA.

The book about Stephen Reiss, which I have a copy of, is called "new water for a thirsty world" by Michael Salzman.  I believe you can still get used copies of it if you search the Internet.

Perhaps if you answer this post with some questions I'll be able to remember some other details.

Here in California, currently, there is a water shortfall that could be alleviated using Reiss' methods.  However, back when Reiss had proposed an alternative to the Feather River Project the politicians, just like today, were captured by lobbyists and had no interest in his methods.

To get a better understanding of the forces of nature, I would recommend anyone reading this, visit any of the YouTube presentations made by Neal Adams on the Expanding Earth.  He is a comic book artist that has a penchant for science, as well as the visualization capabilities that accompany his trade as an artist.  To me that does a lot to explain how the Earth formed oceans and how water, in general, came into being.  The Earth has stretch marks in undersea formations that lend credence to his theories (see Google Earth), which also occur on the Moon and Mars.  He has expanded his theories to planets, like Mars and our Moon, based on photographic images from space flights, to show evidence that they are also expanding and have the same stretch marks on their surfaces.  It would seem that when planets get to a certain size they naturally begin to form water through transmutation into the constituent elements of Hydrogen and Oxygen, as well as the other elements on the Periodic Table.  Obviously this story does not align with NASA's, and other private space companies, objectives to garner public money as funding in their space exploration activities.

Contrary to what NASA and those involved in space exploration would have us believe, if planets and spacial bodies expand over millions of years at some point Mars will naturally create an atmosphere and oceans.  But at the present we should be more interested in expanding Earth's water resources and take care of other Earth-like problems.  The escapist class is millions of years in advance of any reason to explore Mars with humans who will not have the ability to return to Earth.
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: voyageur on May 03, 2014, 07:40:49 AM
Hello James R,

Thanks for your post, and welcome to the Forum.

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In the meantime, it's a good idea to bookmark the Cassiopaea Esoteric Glossary (http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php), as it is a very useful reference that can be used when you encounter concepts/terminology that you may not be familiar with. It should be consulted before posting questions on the forum.

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Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: monotonic on May 08, 2014, 10:22:06 AM
I stumbled upon this page looking through alternative energy information and there are some interesting statements:

Quote from: http://www.hasslberger.com/tecno/tecno_2.htm
Water is an accumulator of energy

There is some evidence that the decrease of water temperature that is a consequence of vortex motion provides the energy to the water that we then see as kinetic energy in the form of increased water velocity. In this way a vortex would transform heat (which is random molecular motion) into dynamic energy (which is motion in a certain direction). Schauberger stressed the fact that water could store enormous amounts of energy by being heated up.

Could this be something that could apply to any kind of vortex, not just water? IE if you are spinning, or you have a spiral in your yard or something, could this be related to the mechanism with which energy is channeled?

This caught my eye because to me it is plausible that a self-organizing flow like a vortex could have an effect at the atomic level to organize atomic motion which would otherwise occur as heat.

Quote from: http://www.hasslberger.com/tecno/tecno_2.htm
It seems that best results were achieved with copper pipes, and that this material caused less resistance to the water's flow than even the smooth glass pipes used as comparison. But the most important datum emerging from these experiments is, that by using a certain spiral configured pipe, based on the form of the kudu antelope's horn, the friction in this pipe decreased with an increase in velocity and at a certain point, the water flowed with a negative resistance.

There are references given in the article to books where this information comes from. I wonder how hard it would be to get a copper pipe from the hardware store and try this experiment? It would certainly be useful in house plumbing to use smaller pipes for a given flow of water.
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: Iconoclast on May 09, 2014, 10:26:04 AM
the vortex or 'planetary/primordeal' motion as schauberger called it is indeed powerful and omnipresent.
here is a video visualizing the vortex motion of the solar system. (remember that in addition to the paths shown in the video, the planets themselves do a corkscrew motion on their orbits as well!)

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jHsq36_NTU

another visualization of the various movements of the earth
(https://treeyopermacultureedu.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/slide03.jpg)
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: voyageur on May 09, 2014, 11:08:40 PM
...(remember that in addition to the paths shown in the video, the planets themselves do a corkscrew motion on their orbits as well!)

Indeed, not to mention all the other planetary bodies doing the same around their suns within our galactic plane, and then all the other galaxies and their children spinning simultaneously in whatever it is that it all moves and spins within.

Amazing systems.

Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: MusicMan on August 10, 2014, 12:20:12 PM
When I was reading the works of Victor Schauberger, I was impressed not so much by the vortices, but by what caused them. He noted that the natural movement of water, and indeed other substances, including solids.. is in the form of BRAIDING. Imagine how a woman's hair is braided and you get the idea - left, right and under, left right and over.
Hence you have the meandering river systems.
This is applied to gases as well, check out "Cloud Streets" on Google, and you see some amazing pictures of earth's clouds from space, as air moves over mountains/islands it forms 'streets' of vortices.
So do rivers moving over rocks, and the more viscous continents, as they move over the magma beneath.
It is interesting that these systems form 'Strange Attractors' and these in turn are Fractal in nature, and can be related to macro systems and to micro systems.
You can see this in the shapes of the continents, and in the movement of masses of air in larger weather systems, as well as oceanic gyres (which seem to collect all the rubbish in the oceans)
I'm sure Ark the physicist would love this stuff.
I wonder if entangled photons are actually 'cloud streets' in microminiature.
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: monotonic on August 15, 2014, 07:13:16 PM
If a vortex of water really does exhibit negative resistance, then it could be used with resonators such as specially sized cavities or vessels to generate waves of sound or at any rate motion. It would be the mechanical equivalent to a negative resistance oscillator.
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: MusicMan on August 16, 2014, 12:41:16 PM
I watched a vortex of water once, it was a water spout off the New South Wales coast: It was quite silent, mind you I was a mile or two away from it.
Contrarily, I watched waves of water hitting a blowhole at Kiama on the same coastline. The water generated a lot of noise, and the ground shook as it exploded into the air after passing through the blowhole.
This can be harnessed, and I know the Brits have designed and operate wave powered generators off the British coastline.
Other vortices of water I have witnessed have been tidal whirlpools generated in the mouth of Port Phillip Bay near Melbourne. Even though I was on an aircraft carrier at the time, they still called the ship to action stations as the ship passed through, just in case of any mishaps, so I guess there is a bit of power involved with water vortices.
As for negative resistance, I'll leave that to the mathematicians and theoretical physicists.

Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: Niall on September 16, 2015, 02:56:54 PM
I read this article (http://www.sott.net/article/301911-Abiotic-Petroleum-and-Primary-Water-Are-shortages-of-oil-and-water-manufactured-scarcity), where it says:

Quote
The primary water theory is similar in the sense that it surmises that fresh water is available in vast quantities deep beneath the Earth's surface. Scientific American says the amounts of water trapped in this "distinct layer in the deep Earth" are comparable to "the sort of mass of water that's present in all the world's oceans."

...and thought 'no way!'

But then I saw this article, also published on Sott today:

Do Earth's oceans come from below? Saturn's Enceladus joins list of moons with subsurface ocean covering entire body (http://www.sott.net/article/301920-Do-Earths-oceans-come-from-below-Saturns-Enceladus-joins-list-of-moons-with-subsurface-ocean-covering-entire-body)

Quote
Enceladus isn't the only moon in the solar system to harbor a subsurface sea. Titan, one of Saturn's 60-plus moons, is believed to have a global ocean. There is also evidence of seas on the Jupiter moons of Callisto, Ganymede, and Europa.
Title: Re: The Theory of Primary Water
Post by: domi on September 17, 2015, 02:10:20 AM
I read this article (http://www.sott.net/article/301911-Abiotic-Petroleum-and-Primary-Water-Are-shortages-of-oil-and-water-manufactured-scarcity), where it says:

Quote
The primary water theory is similar in the sense that it surmises that fresh water is available in vast quantities deep beneath the Earth's surface. Scientific American says the amounts of water trapped in this "distinct layer in the deep Earth" are comparable to "the sort of mass of water that's present in all the world's oceans."

...and thought 'no way!'

But then I saw this article, also published on Sott today:

Do Earth's oceans come from below? Saturn's Enceladus joins list of moons with subsurface ocean covering entire body (http://www.sott.net/article/301920-Do-Earths-oceans-come-from-below-Saturns-Enceladus-joins-list-of-moons-with-subsurface-ocean-covering-entire-body)

Quote
Enceladus isn't the only moon in the solar system to harbor a subsurface sea. Titan, one of Saturn's 60-plus moons, is believed to have a global ocean. There is also evidence of seas on the Jupiter moons of Callisto, Ganymede, and Europa.

Subsurface water also makes underground bases viable. I'm sure the ptb have already figured this out.
Same for adiabatic oil (edit)