Session 13 Feb 2011

Laura said:
Good catch, KJN!

One thing we have been thinking about around here lately is airborne chemicals or pathogens that precipitate out of the stratosphere. Such things can be "dropped off" in the upper atmosphere by exploding comet fragments. You will definitely want to read Psyche's article in the upcoming dot connector about this.

That might suggest, of course, that a warning about dead birds and fish could also be a smoke screen, attributing it to terrorist activity when, in fact, it is "natural." As I've said many times, I think that the whole idea of chemtrails is propagated widely to cover up the far more scary things going on in our atmosphere, on our planet, in our solar system, that all presage very serious earth changes which could include the destruction of 90% of humanity or more. The PTB really want people to "believe in chemtrails" because they then continue to think that the PTB really are in charge and they also do not read the signs accurately. This, of course, spells their doom.

I was thinking about that today and how some people reacted so negatively to the article about Chemtrails. They will like less the idea that nature is capable of creating more harmful virus than the ones any lab or government can.
 
dant said:
What is interesting is the phrase: "not even wrong".

Googling the phrase above shows many links, but the one I liked is:

Excerpt from:_http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/sep/19/ideas.g2 said:
It is comforting that the finest minds in science are as prone as the rest of us to
bitching. But the theoretical physicist Wolfgang Pauli (1900-1958) is in a category
of his own: the withering comment for which he's best known combines utter
contempt on the one hand with philosophical profundity on the other.
"This isn't right," Pauli is supposed to have said of a student's physics paper.
"It's not even wrong."
[...]

One learns something new every day!

FWIW,
Dan

Thanks for this one dant! I was wondering if there was any 'math' behind that phrase :)
Now I can get it even more right, thanks to Pauli indeed. Difficult to get the gist of it only by translating.
 
Laura said:
Doing and EE program is the key to all of this. The individual who is cleared by doing it naturally begins to DO certain things.

There is some of this apparent in some individuals here but it is, as yet, rather spotty.

Anyway, certain DOing then leads to the possibility that connecting of chakras can take place which then leads to the possibility of the dance. Seeking to do the dance before it is time would be self-sabotage.

How does one gauge or determine when these conditions (i.e. 200+ that are connected and cleared) have been met? Also, is this "certain DOing" of things left vague here so as not to influence our own actions? I can imagine if it were spelled out then some of us would unnaturally attempt to do these things before we were truly ready.
 
dantem said:
dant said:
What is interesting is the phrase: "not even wrong".

Googling the phrase above shows many links, but the one I liked is:

Excerpt from:_http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/sep/19/ideas.g2 said:
It is comforting that the finest minds in science are as prone as the rest of us to
bitching. But the theoretical physicist Wolfgang Pauli (1900-1958) is in a category
of his own: the withering comment for which he's best known combines utter
contempt on the one hand with philosophical profundity on the other.
"This isn't right," Pauli is supposed to have said of a student's physics paper.
"It's not even wrong."
[...]

One learns something new every day!

FWIW,
Dan

Thanks for this one dant! I was wondering if there was any 'math' behind that phrase :)
Now I can get it even more right, thanks to Pauli indeed. Difficult to get the gist of it only by translating.

The way Approaching Infinity wrote, it gave me the idea to think of the phrase "not even wrong" to be when one is too biased to be able to have an opportunity to be right or wrong about a certain topic. Once one can be impartial and objective enough, then even if they do not come to the correct conclusion, they are at least able to be "wrong" honestly.

or something like that...
:)

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong said:
Not even wrong (or the full version "That's not right - that's not even wrong") refers to any statement, argument or explanation that is not only incorrect but also fails to meet criteria by which correctness and incorrectness are determined. The phrase implies that not only is someone not making a valid point in a discussion, but they don't even seem to understand the nature of the discussion itself, or the things that need to be understood in order to participate.
 
Q: (Andromeda) Was the thinning of the veil also responsible for the UFO some people saw at PaleoFest?

A: Oh indeed! But here the reason was a network enhancement of perception.

Quick question, was this the picture GRiM took, or another event I am not aware of?
 
Breton said:
Q: (Andromeda) Was the thinning of the veil also responsible for the UFO some people saw at PaleoFest?

A: Oh indeed! But here the reason was a network enhancement of perception.

Quick question, was this the picture GRiM took, or another event I am not aware of?

The only event that I was aware of was GRiM's picture. I assume that was what was meant -- otherwise, I was unaware of any bigger event!
 
ScottD said:
Laura said:
Doing and EE program is the key to all of this. The individual who is cleared by doing it naturally begins to DO certain things.

There is some of this apparent in some individuals here but it is, as yet, rather spotty.

Anyway, certain DOing then leads to the possibility that connecting of chakras can take place which then leads to the possibility of the dance. Seeking to do the dance before it is time would be self-sabotage.

How does one gauge or determine when these conditions (i.e. 200+ that are connected and cleared) have been met? Also, is this "certain DOing" of things left vague here so as not to influence our own actions? I can imagine if it were spelled out then some of us would unnaturally attempt to do these things before we were truly ready.

Things happen organically. Let me try to give an example.

I was driven to try to find the truth. So was Ark. In the course of doing those things that were related to this aim, (me doing Cs, Ark searching in every field for answers and both of us networking to achieve our aim), we met. So, we got together and continued in our search for truth, our search for others who are searching for truth. I wrote, Ark supported me and helped me, Ark wrote, I supported him and helped him; the website came into being, discussion groups formed, others joined us in our search for truth. As this continues, other people may notice what needs to be done for the group aim and begin doing those things. Sometimes I may give hints about what is needed or make suggestions to different people about what they can do for their own awakening.

That's all I can say. As the Cs say, when people have destined missions, they have to awaken to it themselves. The Cs helped me, Ark and I helped each other, and then started helping others.... it's all about helping others... And that's about all I can say without trespassing free will.
 
Laura said:
ScottD said:
Laura said:
Doing and EE program is the key to all of this. The individual who is cleared by doing it naturally begins to DO certain things.

There is some of this apparent in some individuals here but it is, as yet, rather spotty.

Anyway, certain DOing then leads to the possibility that connecting of chakras can take place which then leads to the possibility of the dance. Seeking to do the dance before it is time would be self-sabotage.

How does one gauge or determine when these conditions (i.e. 200+ that are connected and cleared) have been met? Also, is this "certain DOing" of things left vague here so as not to influence our own actions? I can imagine if it were spelled out then some of us would unnaturally attempt to do these things before we were truly ready.

Things happen organically. Let me try to give an example.

I was driven to try to find the truth. So was Ark. In the course of doing those things that were related to this aim, (me doing Cs, Ark searching in every field for answers and both of us networking to achieve our aim), we met. So, we got together and continued in our search for truth, our search for others who are searching for truth. I wrote, Ark supported me and helped me, Ark wrote, I supported him and helped him; the website came into being, discussion groups formed, others joined us in our search for truth. As this continues, other people may notice what needs to be done for the group aim and begin doing those things. Sometimes I may give hints about what is needed or make suggestions to different people about what they can do for their own awakening.

That's all I can say. As the Cs say, when people have destined missions, they have to awaken to it themselves. The Cs helped me, Ark and I helped each other, and then started helping others.... it's all about helping others... And that's about all I can say without trespassing free will.

I hope not to be misunderstood here. Trying to explain my thoughts the best I can and I am asking for discussion.

For many on the forum seeking truth, being led to dance would be a natural occurrence. Right? That is what Laura means by things happening organically...
I am wondering about what effort is supposed to look like if it is organic and unique for each individual. We are asked to Do certain things in order to make progress and be assessed by a criteria of Effort or helping. This helping can be Seen only online for most of us. It's a wonderful thing, this networking, but it's been brought up by many, what happens when the internet goes down? But that it another discussion, perhaps and besides, it hasn't happened yet.
Meanwhile there is Being...
Is it true that you can help others by the effort of working on yourself and raising the FRV (frequency resonance vibration?) What is "spotty effort?"
Speaking for myself, is my effort not enough according to certain criteria? What if I told y'all that one of my gifts and talents is to help people relax and just BE because many people I know are Doing too much and not resting enough or taking time to just BE. How is this to be seen online as something valid as helping? It's true I have not posted asking people to relax and Be . I would like to see an icon of a smiley face relaxing by a tree or some water...something like that. ;)
Also, imho, Being is the feminine side of the masculine, Doing. So there is balance. We must all get some refreshing water from the maiden at the well!
My next question is, does Being" account for anything? It takes a lot of effort to just BE. Sometimes Doing can be overdoing in a way that comes from TRYING too hard to Do the perceived correct things or from trying to fill a void instead of just Being and then letting action come organically out of that Being, right?
If I am understanding what Laura said correctly, one cannot dance with others before the chakras are opened? Or perhaps, does dancing with others open our chakras?


What ScottD said is really important...I think I am trying to expand on this the best I can.

"How does one gauge or determine when these conditions (i.e. 200+ that are connected and cleared) have been met? Also, is this "certain DOing" of things left vague here so as not to influence our own actions? I can imagine if it were spelled out then some of us would unnaturally attempt to do these things before we were truly ready."
 
SolarMother said:
I hope not to be misunderstood here. Trying to explain my thoughts the best I can and I am asking for discussion.

For many on the forum seeking truth, being led to dance would be a natural occurrence. Right? That is what Laura means by things happening organically...
I am wondering about what effort is supposed to look like if it is organic and unique for each individual. We are asked to Do certain things in order to make progress and be assessed by a criteria of Effort or helping. This helping can be Seen only online for most of us. It's a wonderful thing, this networking, but it's been brought up by many, what happens when the internet goes down? But that it another discussion, perhaps and besides, it hasn't happened yet.
Meanwhile there is Being...
Is it true that you can help others by the effort of working on yourself and raising the FRV (frequency resonance vibration?) What is "spotty effort?"
Speaking for myself, is my effort not enough according to certain criteria? What if I told y'all that one of my gifts and talents is to help people relax and just BE because many people I know are Doing too much and not resting enough or taking time to just BE. How is this to be seen online as something valid as helping? It's true I have not posted asking people to relax and Be . I would like to see an icon of a smiley face relaxing by a tree or some water...something like that. ;)
Also, imho, Being is the feminine side of the masculine, Doing. So there is balance. We must all get some refreshing water from the maiden at the well!
My next question is, does Being" account for anything? It takes a lot of effort to just BE. Sometimes Doing can be overdoing in a way that comes from TRYING too hard to Do the perceived correct things or from trying to fill a void instead of just Being and then letting action come organically out of that Being, right?
If I am understanding what Laura said correctly, one cannot dance with others before the chakras are opened? Or perhaps, does dancing with others open our chakras?


What ScottD said is really important...I think I am trying to expand on this the best I can.

"How does one gauge or determine when these conditions (i.e. 200+ that are connected and cleared) have been met? Also, is this "certain DOing" of things left vague here so as not to influence our own actions? I can imagine if it were spelled out then some of us would unnaturally attempt to do these things before we were truly ready."

Solar Mother, I think one aspect of what Laura wrote you are kind of missing is that there is a flavor in what you wrote about you seeking a positive evaluation of your efforts. You are wondering if you are doing the right thing, thinking the right things, etc., or so it seems to me. That of course is STS and internal considering. It's natural in our environment of course, we all want feedback, especially positive feedback. What Laura is referring to, among other things, by "organically," is that one should naturally be seeking to do what needs to be done, without concern for getting approval, or thought of well, or a certificate or something. I think there can be a subtle shift when you start doing in that way that leads to growth.
 
Laura said:
Doing and EE program is the key to all of this. The individual who is cleared by doing it naturally begins to DO certain things.

There is some of this apparent in some individuals here but it is, as yet, rather spotty.

Anyway, certain DOing then leads to the possibility that connecting of chakras can take place which then leads to the possibility of the dance. Seeking to do the dance before it is time would be self-sabotage.

Laura it is normal to feel so much hate and sadness days after EE??????

The program had helped me in a big way but why it has to be in this way??????????????????

It's like feeling what you are going to feel in a long period, in a short period, and it helps obviously because you would see things better but, it's like doing a lot of excercize.
 
Thank you very much for posting this transcript!
I got some emails concerning the sun eruptions but had a feeling that there was something wrong with this warnings and when watching a special day it turned out that nothing VERY special happened. So I am happy to hear that I was on the right track which confirms me to stuck to my own "feelings"!
Thank you again for sharing all that knowledge and for all the tremendous work that already has been done here and helps us to understand what is really going on!
 
SolarMother said:
I hope not to be misunderstood here. Trying to explain my thoughts the best I can and I am asking for discussion.

For many on the forum seeking truth, being led to dance would be a natural occurrence. Right? That is what Laura means by things happening organically...


But there's a whole LOT between seeking truth and dancing like being part of a group seeking truth, networking with said group in order to achieve a certain state of Knowledge and BEing which includes understanding where, when and how dancing might be part of the seeking.

Perhaps a post that I wrote to the first Quantum Future School group will help:

The C's - our 10 % inspiration that must be matched by 90 %
perspiration - have pointed us to "networking" many, many times, but
other than clues, don't give us many exact details.

As time has gone by, as we researched, experimented, learned, gained
experience, we have found that the work of Gurdjieff, supplemented by
Mouravieff and Castaneda, Sufism, and some other bits and pieces, seem
to fit together like puzzle pieces in the framework given by the C's.
This is why, after all this time, we have come to think of the C's
and our "public work" as a TRUE 4th Way Work. Gurdjieff describes a
True Fourth Way Work as follows:

"The fourth way differs from the old and the new ways by the fact that
it is never a permanent way.

"It has no definite forms and there are no institutions connected with
it.

"It appears and disappears governed by some particular laws of its own.

"The fourth way is never without some work of a definite significance,
is never without some undertaking around which and in connection with
which it can alone exist.


"When this work is finished, that is to say, when the aim set before
it has been accomplished, the fourth way disappears, that is, it
disappears from the given place, disappears in its given form,
continuing perhaps in another place in another form.

"Schools of the fourth way exist for the needs of the work which is
being carried out in connection with the proposed undertaking.
They
never exist by themselves as schools for the purpose of education and
instruction.

"Mechanical help cannot be required in any work of the fourth way.

"Only conscious work can be useful in all the undertakings of the
fourth way.

"Mechanical man cannot give conscious work so that the first task of
the people who begin such a work is to create conscious assistants.


"The work itself of schools of the fourth way can have very many forms
and many meanings.

"In the midst of the ordinary conditions of life the only chance a man
has of finding a 'way' is in the possibility of meeting with the
beginning of work of this kind.

"But the chance of meeting with such work as well as the possibility
of profiting by this chance depends upon many circumstances and
conditions.

"The quicker a man grasps the aim of the work which is being executed,
the quicker can he become useful to it and the more will he be able to
get from it for himself.


"But no matter what the fundamental aim of the work is, the schools
continue to exist only while this work is going on.

"When the work is done the schools close.

"The people who began the work leave the stage.

"Those who have learned from them what was possible to learn and have
reached the possibility of continuing on the way independently begin
in one form or another their own personal work."

And that is how we see this work. We live in a particular time, under
particular conditions. The C's came from the future FOR this work, to
seed it, and we are the gardeners.

Gurdjieff's experiences working directly with people towards an
esoteric aim seems almost to have been a "trial run" from which we can
learn in OUR place and time for OUR purposes. Our time is, as we
assess probabilities, a crucial one. Thus, it is a very good thing
that we have the experiences of another whose work was preparatory and
also similar in many ways.

Of course we know that the other "ways," such as those propagated by
religions, or influenced by religions (such as most New Age nonsense),
vehemently deny the Fourth Way even exists.

And then, there is the problem of many of Gurdjieff's students who
didn't get it and think they have the whole banana, when it is clear
that their groups are, exactly as Gurdjieff described, imitations
created by those who saw something, who experienced something, but
never fully penetrated to the core of it. Yes, there are many good
commentaries written by some of his students and students of his
students of a theoretical nature. But just as Gurdjieff himself said,
great books can be written in a state of sleep, and are.

As the years go by and I read and re-read his words, the more I value
them. I still find it humorously ironic that the book that presented
his work to me, Ouspensky's "In Search of the Miraculous," is probably
the only book I nearly destroyed by throwing it against the wall
repeatedly in outrage at all the sacred cows being destroyed. Only
later, when the C's came, when I had been led through my own
initiatory process, did I begin to understand.

Having said that, I am not sure that all of you have it or have read
"In Search of the Miraculous" if you do have it. That being said,
there are certain passages that I would like everyone to read that I
am pasting in below. These excerpts are those that we have learned
through experience apply specifically to this work. Read them, and
read them carefully. I have cut them into conceptual "bites" for
digestion. Each one should be read and fully considered and
understood before you go to the next one.

If, after reading them, you find that you do not belong in this group,
please unsubscribe. There is no point in you wasting your time
working in a group with which you cannot be totally sincere.

Gurdjieff:

"In order to grasp the essence of this teaching it is necessary
clearly to understand the idea that the ways [fakir, monk, yogi] are
the only possible methods for the development of man's hidden
possibilities. This in turn shows how difficult and rare such
development is.

"The development of these possibilities is not a law. The law for man
is existence in the circle of mechanical influences, the state of
'man- machine.'

In the general mass of everyday life, especially modern life, the ways
are a small, quite imperceptible phenomenon which, from the point of
view of life, need not exist at all. But this small phenomenon
contains in itself all that man has for the development of his hidden
possibilities.

The ways are opposed to everyday life, based upon other principles and
subject to other laws. In this consists their power and their
significance.

In everyday life, even in a life filled with scientific,
philosophical, religious, or social interests, there is nothing, and
there can be nothing, which could give the possibilities which are
contained in the ways.

The ways lead, or should lead, man to immortality.

Everyday life, even at its best, leads man to death and can lead to
nothing else. The idea of the ways cannot be understood if the
possibility of man's evolution without their help is admitted.

"As a rule it is hard for man to reconcile himself to this thought; it
seems to him exaggerated, unjust, and absurd.

He has a poor understanding of the meaning of the word 'possibility.'
He fancies that if he has any possibilities in himself they must be
developed and that there must be means for their development in his
environment.

From a total refusal to acknowledge in himself any possibilities
whatever, man generally proceeds forthwith to demand the imperative
and inevitable development of these possibilities.

It is difficult for him to accept the thought that his possibilities
may remain altogether undeveloped and disappear, and that their
development, on the other hand, requires of him tremendous effort and
endurance.

As a matter of fact, if we take all the people who are neither fakirs,
monks, nor yogis, and of whom we may say with confidence that they
never will be either fakirs, monks, or yogis, then we may say with
undoubted certainty that their possibilities cannot be developed and
will not be developed.

This must be clearly understood in order to grasp all that follows.

"In the ordinary conditions of cultured life the position of a man,
even of an intelligent man, who is seeking for knowledge is hopeless,
because, in the circumstances surrounding him, there is nothing
resembling either fakir or yogi schools, while the religions of the
West have degenerated to such an extent that for a long time there has
been nothing alive in them.

Various occult and mystical societies and naive experiments in the
nature of spiritualism, and so on, can give no results whatever.

"And the position would indeed be hopeless if the possibility of yet a
fourth way did not exist.

"The fourth way requires no retirement into the desert, does not
require a man to give up and renounce everything by which he formerly
lived.

The fourth way begins much further on than the way of the yogi.

This means that a man must be prepared for the fourth way and this
preparation must be acquired in ordinary life and be a very serious
one, embracing many different sides.

Furthermore a man must be living in conditions favorable for work on
the fourth way, or, in any case, in conditions which do not render it
impossible.

It must be understood that both in the inner and in the external life
of a man there may be conditions which create insuperable barriers to
the fourth way.

Furthermore, the fourth way has no definite forms like the ways of the
fakir, the monk, and the yogi.

And, first of all, it has to be found. This is the first test.

It is not as well known as the three traditional ways. There are many
people who have never heard of the fourth way and there are others who
deny its existence or possibility.

"At the same time the beginning of the fourth way is easier than the
beginning of the ways of the fakir, the monk, and the yogi.

On the fourth way it is possible to work and to follow this way while
remaining in the usual conditions of life, continuing to do the usual
work, preserving former relations with people, and without renouncing
or giving up anything.


On the contrary, the conditions of life in which a man is placed at
the beginning of his work, in which, so to speak, the work finds him,
are the best possible for him, at any rate at the beginning of the work.

These conditions are natural for him. These conditions are the man
himself because a man's life and its conditions correspond to what he
is. Any conditions different from those created by life would be
artificial for a man and in such artificial conditions the work would
not be able to touch every side of his being at once.

"Thanks to this, the fourth way affects simultaneously every side of
man's being. It is work ore the three rooms at once.

The fakir works on the first room, the monk on the second, the yogi on
the third. In reaching the fourth room the fakir, the monk, and the
yogi leave behind them many things unfinished, and they cannot make
use of what they have attained because they are not masters of all
their functions.

The fakir is master of his body but not of his emotions or his mind;
the monk is master of his emotions but not of his body or his mind;
the yogi is master of his mind but not of his body or his emotions.

"Then the fourth way differs from the other ways in that the principal
demand made upon a man is the demand for understanding. A man must do
nothing that he does not understand, except as an experiment under the
supervision and direction of his teacher.


The more a man understands what he is doing, the greater will be the
results of his efforts. This is a fundamental principle of the fourth
way. The results of work are in proportion to the consciousness of the
work.

No 'faith' is required on the fourth way; on the contrary, faith of
any kind is opposed to the fourth way.

On the fourth way a man must satisfy himself of the truth of what he
is told. And until he is satisfied he must do nothing.

"The method of the fourth way consists in doing something in one room
and simultaneously doing something corresponding to it in the two
other rooms—that is to say, while working on the physical body to work
simultaneously on the mind and the emotions; while working on the mind
to work on the physical body and the emotions; while working on the
emotions to work on the mind and the physical body. [...]

In addition, on the fourth way it is possible to individualize the
work of each separate person, that is to say, each person can do only
what is necessary and not what is useless for him. This is due to the
fact that the fourth way dispenses with a great deal of what is
superfluous and preserved simply through tradition in the other ways.

"So that when a man attains will on the fourth way he can make use of
it because he has acquired control of all his bodily, emotional, and
intellectual functions. And besides, he has saved a great deal of time
by working on the three sides of his being in parallel and
simultaneously.[...]


"The idea of good and evil is sometimes connected with the idea of
truth and falsehood. But just as good and evil do not exist for
ordinary man, neither do truth and falsehood exist.

"Permanent truth and permanent falsehood can exist only for a
permanent man.

If a man himself continually changes, then for him truth and falsehood
will also continually change. And if people are all in different
states at every given moment, their conceptions of truth must be as
varied as their conceptions of good.

A man never notices how he begins to regard as true what yesterday he
considered as false and vice versa. He does not notice these
transitions just as he does not notice the transitions of his own I's
one into another.

"In the life of an ordinary man truth and falsehood have no moral
value of any kind because a man can never keep to one single truth.
His truth changes.

If for a certain time it does not change, it is simply because it is
kept by 'buffers.'

And a man can never tell the truth. Sometimes 'it tells' the truth,
sometimes 'it tells' a lie. Consequently his truth and his falsehood
have no value; neither of them depends upon him, both of them depend upon
accident. And this is equally true when applied to a man's words, to
his thoughts, his feelings, and to his conceptions of truth and
falsehood.

"In order to understand the interrelation of truth and falsehood in
life a man must understand falsehood in himself, the constant
incessant lies he tells himself.

"These lies are created by 'buffers'

In order to destroy the lies in oneself as well as lies told
unconsciously to others, 'buffers' must be destroyed.

But then a man cannot live without 'buffers.'

'Buffers' automatically control a man's actions, words, thoughts, and
feelings. If 'buffers' were to be destroyed all control would
disappear. A man cannot exist without control even though it is only
automatic control.

Only a man who possesses will, that is, conscious control, can live
without 'buffers.
' Consequently, if a man begins to destroy 'buffers'
within himself he must at the same time develop a will.

And as will cannot be created to order in a short space of time a man
may be left with 'buffers' demolished and with a will that is not as
yet sufficiently strengthened.

The only chance he has during this period is to be controlled by
another will which has already been strengthened.

"This is why in school work, which includes the destruction of
'buffers,' a man must be ready to obey another man's will so long as
his own will is not yet fully developed.

Usually this subordination to another man's will is studied before
anything else.

I use the word 'studied' because a man must understand why such
obedience is necessary and he must learn to obey.

The latter is not at all easy.


A man beginning the work of self-study with the object of attaining
control over himself is accustomed to believe in his own decisions.

Even the fact that he has seen the necessity for changing himself
shows him that his decisions are correct and strengthens his belief in
them.

But when he begins to work on himself a man must give up his own
decisions, 'sacrifice his own decisions,' because otherwise the will
of the man who directs his work will not be able to control his actions.

"In schools of the religious way 'obedience' is demanded before
anything else, that is, full and unquestioning submission although
without understanding.

Schools of the fourth way demand understanding before anything else.

Results of efforts are always proportional to understanding.

"Renunciation of his own decisions, subordination to the will of
another, may present insuperable difficulties to a man if he had
failed to realize beforehand that actually he neither sacrifices nor
changes anything in his life, that all his life he has been subject to
some extraneous will and has never had any decisions of his own.

But a man is not conscious of this.

He considers that he has the right of free choice. It is hard for him
to renounce the illusion that he directs and organizes his life himself.

But no work on himself is possible until a man is free from this
illusion.

"He must realize that he does not exist; he must realize that he can
lose nothing because he has nothing to lose; he must realize his
'nothingness' in the full sense of the term.

"This consciousness of one's nothingness alone can conquer the fear of
subordination to the will of another.

However strange it may seem, this fear is actually one of the most
serious obstacles on a man's path.

A man is afraid that he will be made to do things that are opposed to
his principles, views, and ideas.

Moreover, this fear immediately creates in him. the illusion that he
really has principles, views, and convictions which in reality he
never has had and never could have.

A man who has never in his life thought of morality suddenly begins to
fear that he will be made to do something immoral.

A man who has never thought of his health and who has done everything
possible to ruin it begins to fear that he will be made to do
something which will injure it.

A man who has lied to everyone, everywhere, all his life in the most
barefaced manner begins suddenly to fear that he will be made to tell
lies, and so on without end.

I knew a drunkard who was afraid more than anything else that he would
be made to drink.

"The fear of being subordinated to another man's will very often
proves stronger than anything else. A man does not realize that a
subordination to which he consciously agrees is the only way to
acquire a will of his own."
[...]

"The moment when the man who is looking for the way meets a man who
knows the way is called the first threshold or the first step. From
this first threshold the stairway begins.

Between 'life' and the 'way' lies the 'stairway.'

Only by passing along this 'stairway' can a man enter the 'way.'

In addition, the man ascends this stairway with the help of the man
who is his guide; he cannot go up the stairway by himself.

The way begins only where the stairway ends, that is, after the last
threshold on the stairway, on a level much higher than the ordinary
level of life.

"Therefore it is impossible to answer the question, from what does the
way start?

The way starts with something that is not in life at all, and
therefore it is impossible to say from what.

Sometimes it is said: in ascending the stairway a man is not sure of
anything, he may doubt everything, his own powers, whether what he is
doing is right, the guide, his knowledge and his powers.

At the same time, what he attains is very unstable; even if he has
ascended fairly high on the stairway, he may fall down at any moment
and have to begin again from the beginning.

But when he has passed the last threshold and enters the way, all this
changes.

First of all, all doubts he may have about his guide disappear and at
the same time the guide becomes far less necessary
to him than before.

In many respects he may even be independent and know where he is going.

Secondly, he can no longer lose so easily the results of his work and
he cannot find himself again in ordinary life.

Even if he leaves the way, he will be unable to return where he
started from.

"This is almost all that can be said in general about the 'stairway'
and about the 'way,' because there are different ways. ...

And, for instance, on the fourth way there are special conditions
which cannot be on the other ways.

Thus the conditions for ascending the stairway on the fourth way are
that a man cannot ascend to a higher step until he places another man
upon his own step.

The other, in his turn, must put in his place a third man in order to
ascend higher.

Thus, the higher a man ascends the more he depends upon those who are
following him.

If they stop he also stops.


Such situations as this may also occur on the way.

A man may attain something, for instance, some special powers, and may
later on sacrifice these powers in order to raise other people to his
level.

If the people with whom he is working ascend to his level, he will
receive back all that he has sacrificed. But if they do not ascend, he
may lose it altogether.

"There are also various possibilities as regards the teacher's
situation in relation to the esoteric center, namely, he may know more
or he may know less about the esoteric center, he may know exactly
where this center is and how knowledge and help was or is received
from it; or he may know nothing of this and may only know the man from
whom he himself received his knowledge.

In most cases people start precisely from the point that they know
only one step higher than themselves. And only in proportion to their
own development do they begin to see further and to recognize where
what they know came from.

"The results of the work of a man who takes on himself the role of
teacher do not depend on whether or not he knows exactly the origin of
what he teaches, but very much depends on whether or not his ideas
come in actual fact from the esoteric center and whether he himself
understands and can distinguish esoteric ideas, that is, ideas of
objective knowledge, from subjective, scientific, and philosophical
ideas. [...]

[T]he teacher always corresponds to the level of the pupil.

The higher the pupil, the higher can be the teacher.

But a pupil of a level which is not particularly high cannot count on
a teacher of a very high level.

Actually a pupil can never see the level of the teacher. This is a
law. No one can see higher than his own level.


But usually people not only do not know this, but, on the contrary,
the lower they are themselves, the higher the teacher they demand.

The right understanding of this point is already a very considerable
understanding. But it occurs very seldom.

Usually the man himself is not worth a brass farthing but he must have
as teacher no other than Jesus Christ. To less he will not agree.

And it never enters his head that even if he were to meet such a
teacher as Jesus Christ, taking him as he is described in the Gospels,
he would never be able to follow him because it would be necessary to
be on the level of an apostle in order to be a pupil of Jesus Christ.

Here is a definite law. The higher the teacher, the more difficult for
the pupil.

And if the difference in the levels of the teacher and pupil go beyond
a certain limit, then the difficulties in the path of the pupil become
insuperable.

It is exactly in connection with this law that there occurs one of the
fundamental rules of the fourth way.

On the fourth way there is not one teacher. Whoever is the elder, he
is the teacher.


And as the teacher is indispensable to the pupil, so also is the pupil
indispensable to the teacher.

The pupil cannot go on without the teacher, and the teacher cannot go
on without the pupil or pupils.

And this is not a general consideration but an indispensable and quite
concrete rule on which is based the law of a man's ascending. As has
been said before, no one can ascend onto a higher step until he places
another man in his own place.

What a man has received he must immediately give back; only then can
he receive more. Otherwise from him will be taken even what he has
already been given."
[...]

"In properly organized groups no faith is required; what is required
is simply a little trust and even that only for a little while, for
the sooner a man begins to verify all he hears the better it is for
him.[...]

"The struggle against the 'false I,' against one's chief feature or
chief fault, is the most important part of the work, and it must
proceed in deeds, not in words.

For this purpose the teacher gives each man definite tasks which
require, in order to carry them out, the conquest of his chief feature.


When a man carries out these tasks he struggles with himself, works on
himself.

If he avoids the tasks, tries not to carry them out, it means that
either he does not want to or that he cannot work.

"As a rule only very easy tasks are given at the beginning which the
teacher does not even call tasks, and he does not say much about them
but gives them in the form of hints.

If he sees that he is understood and that the tasks are carried out he
passes on to more and more difficult ones.

"More difficult tasks, although they are only subjectively difficult,
are called 'barriers.'

The peculiarity of barriers consists in the fact that, having
surmounted a serious barrier, a man can no longer return to ordinary
sleep, to ordinary life.

And if, having passed the first barrier, he feels afraid of those that
follow and does not go on, he stops so to speak between two barriers
and is unable to move either backwards or forwards.

This is the worst thing that can happen to a man.

Therefore the teacher is usually very careful in the choice of tasks
and barriers, in other words, he takes the risk of giving definite
tasks requiring the conquest of inner barriers only to those people
who have already shown themselves sufficiently strong on small barriers.

"It often happens that, having stopped before some barrier, usually
the smallest and the most simple, people turn against the work,
against the teacher, and against other members of the group, and
accuse them of the very thing that is becoming revealed to them in
themselves.

"Sometimes they repent later and blame themselves, then they again
blame others, then they repent once more, and so on.

But there is nothing that shows up a man better than his attitude
towards the work and the teacher after he has left it.

Sometimes such tests are arranged intentionally.

A man is placed in such a position that he is obliged to leave and he
is fully justified in having a grievance either against the teacher or
against some other person.

And then he is watched to see how he will behave.

A decent man will behave decently even if he thinks that he has been
treated unjustly or wrongly.

But many people in such circumstances show a side of their nature
which otherwise they would never show.

And at times it is a necessary means for exposing a man's nature.

So long as you are good to a man he is good to you. But what will he
be like if you scratch him a little?

"But this is not the chief thing; the chief thing is his own personal
attitude, his own valuation of the ideas which he receives or has
received, and his keeping or losing this valuation.

A man may think for a long time and quite sincerely that he wants to
work and even make great efforts, and then he may throw up everything
and even definitely go against the work; justify himself, invent
various fabrications, deliberately ascribe a wrong meaning to what he
has heard, and so on."

"What happens to them for this?" asked one of the audience.

"Nothing—what could happen to them?" said G. "They are their own
punishment.

And what punishment could be worse? [...]

"You must realize that the teacher takes a very difficult task upon
himself, the cleaning and the repair of human machines.


Of course he accepts only those machines that are within his power to
mend.

If something essential is broken or put out of order in the machine,
then he refuses to take it.


But even such machines, which by their nature could still be cleaned,
become quite hopeless if they begin to tell lies.

A lie to the teacher, even the most insignificant, concealment of any
kind such as the concealment of something another has asked to be kept
secret, or of something the man himself has said to another, at once
puts an end to the work of that man, especially if he has previously
made any efforts.


"Here is something you must bear in mind. Every effort a man makes
increases the demands made upon him.

So long as a man has not made any serious efforts the demands made
upon him are very small, but his efforts immediately increase the
demands made upon him. And the greater the efforts that are made, the
greater the new demands.

"At this stage people very often make a mistake that is constantly
made. They think that the efforts they have previously made, their
former merits, so to speak, give them some kind of rights or
advantages, diminish the demands to be made upon them, and constitute
as it were an excuse should they not work or should they afterwards do
something wrong.


This, of course, is most profoundly false.

Nothing that a man did yesterday excuses him today.

Quite the reverse, if a man did nothing yesterday, no demands are made
upon him today; if he did anything yesterday, it means that he must do
more today.

This certainly does not mean that it is better to do nothing. Whoever
does nothing receives nothing.


"As I have said already, one of the first demands is sincerity.

But there are different kinds of sincerity.

There is clever sincerity and there is stupid sincerity, just as there
is clever insincerity and stupid insincerity.

Both stupid sincerity and stupid insincerity are equally mechanical.

But if a man wishes to learn to be cleverly sincere, he must be
sincere first of all with his teacher and with people who are senior
to him in the work. This will be 'clever sincerity.'

But here it is necessary to note that sincerity must not become 'lack
of considering.'

Lack of considering in relation to the teacher or in relation to those
whom the teacher has appointed, as I have said already, destroys all
possibility of any work.

If he wishes to learn to be cleverly insincere he must be insincere
about the work and he must learn to be silent when he ought to be
silent with people outside it, who can neither understand nor
appreciate it.

But sincerity in the group is an absolute demand, because, if a man
continues to lie in the group in the same way as he lies to himself
and to others in life, he will never learn to distinguish the truth
from a lie.

"The second barrier is very often the conquest of fear.

A man usually has many unnecessary, imaginary fears.

Lies and fears—this is the atmosphere in which an ordinary man lives.

Just as the conquest of lying is individual, so also is the conquest
of fear.

Every man has fears of his own which are peculiar to him alone. These
fears must first be found and then destroyed.

The fears of which I speak are usually connected with the lies among
which a man lives.

You must realize that they have nothing in common with the fear of
spiders or of mice or of a dark room, or with unaccountable nervous
fears.

"The struggle against lying in oneself and the struggle against fears
is the first positive work which a man begins to do.

"One must realize in general that positive efforts and even sacrifices
in the work do not justify or excuse mistakes which may follow.

On the contrary, things that could be forgiven in a man who has made
no efforts and who has sacrificed nothing will not be forgiven in
another who has already made great sacrifices.


"This seems to be unjust, but one must understand the law. There is,
as it were, a separate account kept for every man.

His efforts and sacrifices are written down on one side of the book
and his mistakes and misdeeds on the other side.

What is written down on the positive side can never atone for what is
written down on the negative side.

What is recorded on the negative side can only be wiped out by the
truth, that is to say, by an instant and complete confession to
himself and to others and above all to the teacher.

If a man sees his fault but continues to justify himself, a small
offense may destroy the result of whole years of work and effort.


In the work, therefore, it is often better to admit one's guilt even
when one is not guilty.

But this again is a delicate matter and it must not be exaggerated.
Otherwise the result will again be lying, and lying prompted by fear."
[...]

A group is begun for definite concerted work, for a definite aim.

I should have to trust you in this work and you would have to trust me
and one another. Then it would be a group.

Until there is general work it will only be a preparatory group.

We shall prepare ourselves so as in the course of time to become a
group.

And it is only possible to prepare ourselves to become a group by
trying to imitate a group such as it ought to be, imitating it
inwardly of course, not outwardly.


"What is necessary for this?

First of all you must understand that in a group all are responsible
for one another.


A mistake on the part of one is considered as a mistake on the part of
all.


This is a law. And this law is well founded for, as you will see
later, what one acquires is acquired also by all.

"The rule of common responsibility must be borne well in mind.

It has another side also.

Members of a group are responsible not only for the mistakes of
others, but also for their failures.

The success of one is the success of all.

The failure of one is the failure of all.


A grave mistake on the part of one, such as for instance the breaking
of a fundamental rule, inevitably leads to the dissolution of the
whole group.

"A group must work as one machine.

The parts of the machine must know one another and help one another.


In a group there can be no personal interests opposed to the interests
of others, or opposed to the interests of the work, there can be no
personal sympathies or antipathies which hinder the work.


All the members of a group are friends and brothers, but if one of
them leaves, and especially if he is sent away by the teacher, he
ceases to be a friend and a brother and at once becomes a stranger, as
one who is cut off.

It often becomes a very hard rule, but nevertheless it is necessary.

People may be lifelong friends and may enter a group together.
Afterwards one of them leaves.

The other then has no right to speak to him about the work of the group.

The man who has left feels hurt, he does not understand this, and they
quarrel.

In order to avoid this where relations, such as husband and wife,
mother and daughter, and so on, are concerned, we count them as one,
that is, husband and wife are counted as one member of the group.

Thus if one of them cannot go on with the work and leaves, the other
is considered guilty and must also leave.

"Furthermore, you must remember that I can help you only to the extent
that you help me.


Moreover your help, especially at the beginning, will be reckoned not
by actual results which are almost certain to be nil, but by the
number and the magnitude of your efforts."
 
Quote from: Laura on February 22, 2011, 05:51:22 PM

Doing and EE program is the key to all of this. The individual who is cleared by doing it naturally begins to DO certain things.

There is some of this apparent in some individuals here but it is, as yet, rather spotty.

Anyway, certain DOing then leads to the possibility that connecting of chakras can take place which then leads to the possibility of the dance. Seeking to do the dance before it is time would be self-sabotage.
Things happen organically. Let me try to give an example.

I was driven to try to find the truth. So was Ark. In the course of doing those things that were related to this aim, (me doing Cs, Ark searching in every field for answers and both of us networking to achieve our aim), we met. So, we got together and continued in our search for truth, our search for others who are searching for truth. I wrote, Ark supported me and helped me, Ark wrote, I supported him and helped him; the website came into being, discussion groups formed, others joined us in our search for truth. As this continues, other people may notice what needs to be done for the group aim and begin doing those things. Sometimes I may give hints about what is needed or make suggestions to different people about what they can do for their own awakening.

That's all I can say. As the Cs say, when people have destined missions, they have to awaken to it themselves. The Cs helped me, Ark and I helped each other, and then started helping others.... it's all about helping others... And that's about all I can say without trespassing free will.

before I ''discovered'' cropcircles and through them the C s and Laura I was involved in a bellydance group that developed ''organically''from our play group
for about 10 years.It was run in a non hierarchical style with no leaders/teachers/primadonnas open to any woman or girl in the village who wanted to join
since we are very isolated here in the bush we soon ran out of middle eastern music to dance to so we practically invented tribal fusion back in the 90s
we/I choreographed most of the dances we did among them a chakra dance
a spiral dance a trance dance with live drummers(Zaar)and lots of others
so to come to my point for me to be involved with the dance for FOTCM
would be like coming full circle...that is why I asked if I may start to choreograph as my input/help DOing as that is,I feel ,one of my skills/destined mission was it self sabotage when I did the dancing back then?I refuse to believe that ,it was so good and liberating and educational for everyone of us not just me,it was the second best thing ever to happen to me(first being finding the C s)
it is of cause possible that I got it all wrong and I take the whole dance thing too literally --maybe cyber-techno shamans dance ''together'' by doing so online ,no actual choreography needed
 
rrraven said:
we/I choreographed most of the dances we did among them a chakra dance
a spiral dance a trance dance with live drummers(Zaar)and lots of others
so to come to my point for me to be involved with the dance for FOTCM
would be like coming full circle...that is why I asked if I may start to choreograph as my input/help DOing as that is,I feel ,one of my skills/destined mission was it self sabotage when I did the dancing back then?I refuse to believe that ,it was so good and liberating and educational for everyone of us not just me,it was the second best thing ever to happen to me(first being finding the C s)
it is of cause possible that I got it all wrong and I take the whole dance thing too literally --maybe cyber-techno shamans dance ''together'' by doing so online ,no actual choreography needed

There are dances and there are Dances. You can dance for a lot of reasons. You can dance in a lot of states. Most dancing is done from a state of no knowledge and no being.

Please read my previous post in this thread.
 
Mr. Premise said:
SolarMother said:
I hope not to be misunderstood here. Trying to explain my thoughts the best I can and I am asking for discussion.

For many on the forum seeking truth, being led to dance would be a natural occurrence. Right? That is what Laura means by things happening organically...
I am wondering about what effort is supposed to look like if it is organic and unique for each individual. We are asked to Do certain things in order to make progress and be assessed by a criteria of Effort or helping. This helping can be Seen only online for most of us. It's a wonderful thing, this networking, but it's been brought up by many, what happens when the internet goes down? But that it another discussion, perhaps and besides, it hasn't happened yet.
Meanwhile there is Being...
Is it true that you can help others by the effort of working on yourself and raising the FRV (frequency resonance vibration?) What is "spotty effort?"
Speaking for myself, is my effort not enough according to certain criteria? What if I told y'all that one of my gifts and talents is to help people relax and just BE because many people I know are Doing too much and not resting enough or taking time to just BE. How is this to be seen online as something valid as helping? It's true I have not posted asking people to relax and Be . I would like to see an icon of a smiley face relaxing by a tree or some water...something like that. ;)
Also, imho, Being is the feminine side of the masculine, Doing. So there is balance. We must all get some refreshing water from the maiden at the well!
My next question is, does Being" account for anything? It takes a lot of effort to just BE. Sometimes Doing can be overdoing in a way that comes from TRYING too hard to Do the perceived correct things or from trying to fill a void instead of just Being and then letting action come organically out of that Being, right?
If I am understanding what Laura said correctly, one cannot dance with others before the chakras are opened? Or perhaps, does dancing with others open our chakras?


What ScottD said is really important...I think I am trying to expand on this the best I can.

"How does one gauge or determine when these conditions (i.e. 200+ that are connected and cleared) have been met? Also, is this "certain DOing" of things left vague here so as not to influence our own actions? I can imagine if it were spelled out then some of us would unnaturally attempt to do these things before we were truly ready."

Solar Mother, I think one aspect of what Laura wrote you are kind of missing is that there is a flavor in what you wrote about you seeking a positive evaluation of your efforts. You are wondering if you are doing the right thing, thinking the right things, etc., or so it seems to me. That of course is STS and internal considering. It's natural in our environment of course, we all want feedback, especially positive feedback. What Laura is referring to, among other things, by "organically," is that one should naturally be seeking to do what needs to be done, without concern for getting approval, or thought of well, or a certificate or something. I think there can be a subtle shift when you start doing in that way that leads to growth.

Mr Premise, thank you for the illumination. This must be a case of one or more of my 'i's' doing what you described above, as I did not know I was doing this 'seeking of positive evaluation of my efforts.' I was confused about the individual and unique work of each person, but it sounds like there is no such thing.
I think I See (a glimmer?) of the STS of this internal considering in what I consider to be my uniqueness or individuality--- wondering if I am doing OK, or where I fit in, what I can offer, and on and on. It's all a lie, is the bottom line. Constant lies...that is god-awful depressing. Learning is not always FUN.
I did read ISOTM, but I am sure I did not understand it. What Laura posted will be very helpful. Back to work and learning what Being and Doing really is.
 
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