Author Topic: Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality  (Read 9948 times)

Online zak

  • Jedi Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 353
Re: Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality
« Reply #180 on: January 08, 2017, 03:53:59 PM »
(....)                                                                                                                                                                                                          (...)
 In practice, it seems to me to be pretty lofty goal; good luck making it work in 3D. The potentials exist, but without some rather dramatic changes, it seems like something intended for another world.

What is really interesting it's that "dramatic changes" are occuring.
And to our level of human being "we must be the change we want to see in the world". Again all is  about lesson in a 3rd density context
into a STS classroom, and the only way/key to get out is awareness / knowledge / light / love.
It seems a repetitive decorum all along the forum, but it's a big and faraway clue that invites us "to be" the change.

Windmill knight:
Quote
Quote
Citation de: luc le Aujourd'hui à 02:27:10 pm

    I think it is possible. I know I did many things that went totally against my mechanical inclinations/'wants' simply because I knew it is better for my wife, and ultimately for myself. Of course, I screw up as well - a lot. But as I said, I think caring for your partner can be a very strong motivation to change for the better and do what 'it' doesn't like - not because we expect anything in return, but simply because it's the right thing. Interestingly, in my experience, this often leads to very good feelings after the fact and in the long run - even though I didn't expect it at all!

Absolutely. I think being in a relationship is a great opportunity for creativity and learning certain lessons that we would otherwise not have, which is one reason why I think it's so important to figure out what's the best, most genuine type of relationship available to us. Another reason is that if we get it wrong, a relationship can also turn out to be very destructive - although we'll still get a lesson, for sure, just a different one.

The most of the time it's not the "GIVING" that matter but "THE SHARING".
It must be patient with both hands, without weaken
and courageously wait, and wait, and still work,
the eyes screwed to the invisible, intimately, so that Hope cries and tears, flowing over the flesh,
 it gently sculpts the serene face of the man who loves.

"Cluny"

Offline Lilyalic

  • Dagobah Resident
  • *******
  • Posts: 960
  • sorrow is the ground for growth
Re: Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality
« Reply #181 on: January 08, 2017, 06:16:32 PM »
So how does anyone expect to reverse that order that you mentioned...

I think it's definitely possible. I'm sure it's happened to a lesser or greater extent with members here just through their years of being involved in the Work.

I had a real-time example of how the "stimulus -> thought/feeling" type of situation has changed in me and I'm sure with others, when I went to the supermarket this morning with this thread fresh in my mind.

Remember before we got into diet and health in a serious way? Remember walking around a supermarket, seeing all the cookies and desserts and cereals and chips and sodas and milkshakes? Those things to be 'gotten' and 'had' for your 'pleasure'. Do peeps here look at them the same way any more? How do those of you who take their health seriously feel now when going out to buy groceries? We don't even walk down most of the aisles. If we walk past a stand with candy on it, I'm sure for a lot of us it would have about the same effect as walking past a stand with magazines, or electrical equipment or toilet paper.

How did we do it? We learned about it, thought about it, stopped doing it. We changed our fundamental attitude towards food.

I'm kinda riffing here, but I think there's something in this.

I think that's a valid point T.C.
I see cookies etc, most of the time, with a "ugh" feeling or thought. More like "that's junk, it'll make me ill" or something along those lines.
Yet there are times when I think "I just wish I could eat a cookie!" so I'm guessing the same struggle happens with attraction also.
I guess it's about rewiring your brain, in those situations to think or feel differently when physically attracted to somebody else. Or going through the motions of seeing past their physical attraction and your personal projections as Joe mentioned.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 06:19:00 PM by Lilyalic »
He who has the will of a Lion, will not have the fate of a Mouse

Offline voyageur

  • The Living Force
  • ********
  • Posts: 4,843
Re: Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality
« Reply #182 on: January 08, 2017, 10:42:26 PM »
As for this thread that rapidly evolved in the last few days concerning Ariana Grande (great posts by people), I did not know who she was and read with interest looking at the broader issues and the work. I’m reminded, thought, that Ariana is young and wants to promote her carrier as a singer. However, behind what she does on stage is a machine that wants her to be choreographed exactly as they see fit.  Given the lyrics and her dress, and given the knowledge of what the promoters know of what audiences want (or what they have imbued audience’s to want), Ariana is following their script and it may not be who she is? Did she write the lyrics? If so, why, to what aim? She takes offense, naturally, to being objectified by the “observing” public and cannot see the elephant in the room, the promoters and her agreement to being promoted as such.

Her promoters help drive her actions and she becomes caught up in it, having to defend herself while the promoters rake in the profits of this exposure. Many promoters know that controversy helps promote, too.

Ariana says she is a victim, and indeed she is. The promoters will use near anything and anybody to promote, and if not Ariana, than it will be someone else. It could be said that the true victims are the non-observers, both women and men who choose not to observe - society at large, who must function together in a greater hysterical society that is being more and more transformed from behind their everyday reality. What the promoters leak out in these forms of expression and manipulations become exponentially adapted in social media and inculcated into reality whereby people must interact with the social fallout in it’s many forms.

I’ve know a few women whereby when they tried to seek out promoters for their art, and the promoters first discussion was on how to market them, not their voice, not their lyric’s and abilities, it was their dress – how to reveal; dump that attire and wear only this or that. In a sense, they are setting up the artist to be objectified as they see fit, as they see the people in the market; which consists of what people can gather by observation. Some artists will say, no thanks bud, and walk away, while others will follow what they have been told to do – they become highly managed and must react to what happens through their own and promoted actions. This is no different on movie sets, other than its not real-time, with a producer/director whose aim is to manipulate the viewer and exploit the actor, if they are not strong enough to resist the extremes of what is being asked of them. The actor might say, in these cases, that it was simply an act, and it is an act. Ariana will say it was an act also, and it is an act.

Print advertising, pornography and other media messages each have promoters who set the scene and the actors, artists and the more exploited (pornography) bring to the observer a projected fantasy that can be instilled as reality. The false reality to want, to identify with and to lust after. Media promoted is a manipulation by degrees.

As for the observers, the promoters, using vehicles such as Ariana or anything else that fits, bank on the observer paying to observe, to purchasing that which is being promoted. As long as people agree to keep purchasing, they will continue to guild peoples observations and manipulate their emotional psychology. The more this becomes instilled, the more people who want to observe will pay and demand of these extremes.

Adaryn’s post here http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,43414.msg694789.html#msg694789 brings up some good points and links to the C’s discussion on sexuality.

Another thing noted was after someone sent me episode 2 of John Berger’s film ‘Ways of Seeing’ (1972) whereby he looks at oil painting canvas art and how the artist promotes it – and this has historical aspects. This dealt with the woman (often nude) canvass and the mostly, yet not all, men observers and what is going on in the observers heads and how they have been lead to this thinking.  Berger interviews a group of women after they viewed the film for their thinking. There is a post here on the forum concerning this film starting with episode 1. http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,41308.msg640960.html#msg640960

Lastly, Pashalis notes G’s comments below that are perhaps worth repeating:


Here is what Gurdjieff had to say about ordinary people, outside of the work:

Quote from: ISOTM
"I think I understand what you mean," I said. "And I have often thought how little there is in the world that can stand against this form of mechanization and choose its own path."

"This is just where you make your greatest mistake," said G. "You think there is something that chooses its own path, something that can stand against mechanization; you think that not everything is equally mechanical."

"Why, of course not!" I said. "Art, poetry, thought, are phenomena of quite a different order."

"Of exactly the same order," said G. "These activities are just as mechanical as everything else. Men are machines and nothing but mechanical actions can be expected of machines."

"Very well," I said. "But are there no people who are not machines?"

"It may be that there are," said G., "only not those people you see. And you do not know them. That is what I want you to understand.

and this:

Quote from: ISOTM
"Man's possibilities are very great. You cannot conceive even a shadow of what man is capable of attaining. But nothing can be attained in sleep. In the consciousness of a sleeping man his illusions, his 'dreams' are mixed with reality. He lives in a subjective world and he can never escape from it. And this is the reason why he can never make use of all the powers he possesses and why he always lives in only a small part of himself.

c.a. also discussed this a little concerning “handlers” in this thread here http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,43414.135.html
"When the passions of the past blend with the prejudices of the present, human reality is reduced to a picture of black and white."
Marc Bloch, 'The Historian's Craft'

Offline BHelmet

  • Jedi Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 357
Re: Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality
« Reply #183 on: January 11, 2017, 05:02:20 AM »
As for this thread that rapidly evolved in the last few days concerning Ariana Grande (great posts by people),

and, interestingly, as that happened, this thread has almost immediately dropped off the front page of the forum into oblivion. It is easy to bag on a big hypocritical target that is out in the public eye like Ariana Grande who is easy to gossip about, but what of the question of the appropriateness of our own expressions of sexuality? This is a fertile ( :rolleyes:) topic for discussion.

Just what IS "sexuality"? Certainly there is the element of pleasure/gratification for the self and a type of feeding in an STS world that most people here are rightfully leery of getting sucked into. But, I think there is more to it than that. The very term "sexuality" is one of those things, I would wager, that most people immediately think they have a knowledge of, or an idea of, but it may be one of those unexamined blind spots.

So, what IS sexual expression? (Open question.) Part of it is some kind of communication too. Is it just a dance of attraction and titillation or more than that? Is it even possible to NOT express oneself sexually in this world? Does my state of being always communicate on a sexual level? Even if I am just picking out the best looking package of bacon in the meat department?

Just had a thought - perhaps what is so irritating (to me) about Ariana and a lot of her type is that her sexual expression is on a very shallow, immature level. She calls it her art but her lack of depth and knowledge and real self awareness makes her sexual display....simplistic, one dimensional and ...kind of boring actually. More paint-by-the-numbers rather than real art. Oops! I slipped back into bagging on an easy target.

RE this idea of dance art. Let me tell a little story. Coincidently, it was the first time I took my wife on a date to meet my parents! We went to a flamenco dance kind of place. All the younger girls (20's to early 30's), who were beautiful and shapely, came out and went through the motions, did their thing -  OK whatever - they acted as though they didn't have to try - they were inexperienced but thought they were hot stuff. The last dancer was MUCH older - maybe late 40's. She was absolutely riveting, intense, focused, involved and self-aware of every movement and took the dance to a totally different level (more like 4 or 5 levels above where the young beauties were - she just smoked 'em) The room became electrically charged. There was a massive qualitative difference in the expression and being of the dancers. Not sure where I am going with that other than to say I think there is more going on than meets the eye with this stuff.

Quote from: ISOTM
"Man's possibilities are very great. You cannot conceive even a shadow of what man is capable of attaining. But nothing can be attained in sleep. In the consciousness of a sleeping man his illusions, his 'dreams' are mixed with reality. He lives in a subjective world and he can never escape from it. And this is the reason why he can never make use of all the powers he possesses and why he always lives in only a small part of himself.

Offline fabric

  • Ambassador
  • ********
  • Posts: 778
Re: Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality
« Reply #184 on: January 11, 2017, 10:14:27 AM »
I recently watched this lecture from Jordan Peterson, it's part of a series (have yet to watch the others but after this one I’ll be checking them out) but in this one he talks about nihilism and ties in some concepts from Jung, Nietzsche and in one part he goes into archetypes which I found relevant to this discussion. I don't think anything new is being said that hasn't been mentioned but an interesting take nonetheless. One could say this archetype or ‘meme’ as he said is part of the laws man is subject to. In terms of the work, a person working towards being under the influence of as least many as possible laws, this one is one of the more apparent ones that we can actually do something about. The quoted bit starts at 30:37 though the whole lecture is worth watching.


Quote from: Jordan Peterson

https://youtu.be/Hw7NvWvwVCA?t=30m37s

So one of the things Jung did was he deeply studied the substructures of thought. So for Jung but you know we talked about Piaget a bit and we said for Piaget you kind of built your brain from your body upward. Brilliant idea, so smart.  But Jung has a lot of Piaget in him, it's more implicit but for Jung, not only are substructures of your thought biological and so therefore based in your body, but your body was also cultural and historical. Partly because you're an evolved creature so god only knows what's in there. 3.5 billion years’ worth of weirdness that you can draw on or that can move you where it wants to move you but also you're being shaped by cultural dynamics all the time. Human beings in particular, like we're just watching each other like mad all the time to see what we're up to, what people think of us, how we should behaving. Are we being boring? Are people attracted to us? It's like we're social right to the core and that's another way that you can understand an archetype. Part of the archetype is that we are social to the core so we're interested in other people, and more if your extraverted and less if you're introverted but that doesn't matter.

By the standards of say, solitary animals, we're so social it's just unbelievable. And that's built-in. What's built in is that you find that interesting. That's the archetype. The archetype is whatever it is that makes you find that interesting. It's beyond your control. But if you're extroverted you're interested in people. You don't decide that, it decided it. For you. The question is, what is it? Your brain, your limbic system, whatever the hell that means. We don't know what that means. We have no idea how your brain produces consciousness. I'm dead serious we haven't got a clue!  And what that indicates to me since we've been hacking away at it for say 400 years, is that the way we think about consciousness is wrong we're, not getting anywhere. We've gone a long way with lots of things, we're not getting anywhere with consciousness.

Ok so back to the archetypes... cause I can tell you how these things arise to some degree. So you're interested in other people. You're interested in them because they're unbelievably useful resources, right? Because they don't think they have resources that you want. Plus you want even subtle things from them; you want their attention, you want to play with them. There's all sorts of things that you need and want from other people so the social interactions are incredibly valuable and informative.

But the information is interesting because part of what every single person is constantly broadcasting to every other person is how to behave. So now if you meet someone and let's say you find them interesting. Well I can tell you that the more ideal they are, assuming you're not too warped, the more ideal they are, the more you're gonna be interested in them. Cause that actually is what defines ideal. As you become ideal, you can say that is also the same as becoming high status, as you become ideal, then you're interesting to people. So that's interesting because what that means is that you can read off people's interest to find out when you're deviating from the ideal and they don't even know what the ideal is.

The ideal is that to which their attention is inexorably drawn. And they're always telling you when you should fall short of the ideal, always. It's being broadcast at you all the time and then your imagination back there tries to figure out, just what is this ideal? Cause your imagination is watching you in a Piagenian sense noticing what you do and then trying to figure out what that is. So you'll have fantasies about the ideal - that often happens in a romantic relationship especially at the beginning of it. You know, you project your idealization onto the person that you're romantically attracted to. That's the projection of an archetype. So Jung would say the woman will project an animus onto the man. The animus is her conceptualization of what the ideal man is.

It’s unconscious because it's rooted in fantasy. And the man will be in concordance with that projection in some areas, those are the areas where she likes him by the way, and will be discordant in other areas. And that's the areas where she constantly disappoints him as the relationship develops. So the projection is there in part to help the person understand who it is that they're dealing with because when you meet someone you have to assume something about them. It's the same as projection. You have to assume something about them and then if you find them fascinating, which is what happens if you fall in love, maybe it's because they smell good or they're symmetrical or something, you immediately assume that- oh those things really matter - you immediately assume that they embody the ideal. It's an over simplification but over simplification has a basis, and the basis is, if it's interesting to me it must be close to the ideal. Well yeah, except the person that you're going out with, attracted to, is warped and bent and flawed and twisted and you know, in three hundred ways and you'll find that out soon enough, just as they will about you, and that often just blows the relationship into bits cause the person will say, "Well, she wasn't who I thought she was."

Well, whoever said she was who you thought she was? Where did you get the misapprehension that she was going to be who you thought she was! God, what do you know? You're led around by your sense of smell and your ability to detect symmetry. It's like, yeah, that's not very sophisticated! So those are - the anima and animus are two primary Union archetypes and they're very complex but that kinda gets up surface. The ideal that I was describing... so people are broadcasting information to each other which be ideal, be ideal, be ideal - it's like be my ideal, obviously, but let's say if I took a thousand ideals and then averaged them or extracted out the common ideal, the ideal was common to all of them, that would be a savior figure. That's what a savior figure is! And now and then someone comes along who acts quite a bit like that. And poof! You've got yourself a religion.

Offline Azur

  • Dagobah Resident
  • *******
  • Posts: 869
  • Un peu plus haut, Un peu plus loin
Re: Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality
« Reply #185 on: January 11, 2017, 11:31:23 AM »
I agree with your analogy to food consumption. From our experiments with diet, changing to something better is simply a matter of "just do it". Kinda like Glenda to Dorothy: "You always had the power to go back home. The magic slippers will take you home in two seconds". But then, it's all a big school, and progress needs will and strength. Those who have learned lessons can move on. Those who keep playing in the dirt get dirty.

 :) We came down here to play in the dirt. The Work is a simple reminder of that. "Progress" in this School is remembering who/what you are/were and interfacing with this small reality, willfully or not. It teaches you things through your limitations; or perceived limitations.

Those magic slippers "taking you home" might mean two things: checking out of the meat suit after going through the motions of inane living; or remembering that you can always go home, but while you're here, you might as well have a good look around, or try to, while buried under huge limitations, and pushing through them.

There are 'limits' on every front. And some from fronts that we might not even be aware of yet. Lots of dirt.

So it goes...

Push on! That's why we're here. Don't forget it.

 :flowers:
"What concerns me is not the way things are, but rather the way people think things are"  -- Epictetus AD 55-c.135

Light your candle before Night, or it takes you -- Greek saying

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -- Tennyson

Children of tomorrow live in the tears that fall today. -- Butler

Offline Neil

  • Jedi Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 390
Re: Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality
« Reply #186 on: January 12, 2017, 04:49:23 AM »
Quote from: Bhelmet
and, interestingly, as that happened, this thread has almost immediately dropped off the front page of the forum into oblivion. It is easy to bag on a big hypocritical target that is out in the public eye like Ariana Grande who is easy to gossip about, but what of the question of the appropriateness of our own expressions of sexuality? This is a fertile ( :rolleyes:) topic for discussion.
I seem to remember something said about this which might offer a middle ground between the perfect love the Cassiopaeans described in my previous post and reality. I recall one of the newer sessions saying something about sex should always be playful and innocent or something along that line, but I can't seem to find the transcript, so my phrasing must not be quite right. Perhaps that is basically an archetypal description of "the lovers" in an STO world, and then people can express it according to their awareness and receivership capacity, thereby bringing the mass consciousness into alignment with an ascending spiral.

Personally, I don't have a problem with sex in art in moderation, when there is a literary purpose for it. In an alternate reality, Hollywood could actually be used to promote wholesome values instead of the filth Ariana Grande is peddling. I see it as a law of three thing. Hardcore puritanical avoidance of the subject is going to create problems for some people because it creates a complex about "sin" whereas the liberalistic "anything goes" mentality destroys intimacy by commoditizing it and depriving it of any meaning or worthwhile purpose. The media could be used to inspire via objective art, instead of creating sexual psychopaths.

We come seeking answers, we leave having truth.

Offline genero81

  • Jedi Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 357
  • The voice of Seeing is a most inexplicable thing
Re: Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality
« Reply #187 on: January 12, 2017, 06:26:24 PM »
From ISOTM:

"And yet the sex center is very important for the general activity, and particularly for the inner growth of the organism, because, working with 'hydrogen' 12, it can receive a very fine food of impressions, such as none of the ordinary centers can receive.

The fine food of impressions is very important for the manufacture of the higher 'hydrogens.'

But when the sex center works with energy that is not its own, that is, with the comparatively low 'hydrogens' 48 and 24, its impressions become much coarser and it ceases to play the role in the organism which it could play.

At the same time union with, and the use of its energy by, the thinking center creates far too great an imagination on the subject of sex, and in addition a tendency to be satisfied with this imagination. Union with the emotional center creates sentimentality or, on the contrary, jealousy, cruelty. This is again a picture of the 'abuse of sex.'"

"What must be done to struggle against the 'abuse of sex'?" asked somebody present.

G. laughed.

"I was just waiting for that question," he said. "But you already ought to understand that it is just as impossible to explain to a man who has not yet begun to work on himself and does not know the structure of the machine what the 'abuse of sex' means, as it is to say what must be done to avoid these abuses.

Right work on oneself begins with the creation of a permanent center of gravity. When a permanent center of gravity has been created everything else begins to be disposed and distributed in subordination to it.

The question comes to this: From what and how can a permanent center of gravity be created?

 And to this may be replied that only a man's attitude to the work, to school, his valuation of the work, and his realization of the mechanicalness and aimlessness of everything else can create in him a permanent center of gravity."


This seems to me to be the crux of the matter. I'm thinking that sex drive in a broken machine (ie wrong work of centers) is the primary mechanism of the general law which keeps mankind available as "food for the moon." Driving all manner of wrong ideas, assumptions, fantasies, etc.

Great thread
"For I am Light without shadow, while you are mixed light, as a result of your possibility. If you relate yourself to Me, I receive you; and if you relate yourself to nonexistence, it receives you, for you are between Being and nonexistence, and you are between Good and evil." Ibn al-Arabi

Offline Thinkingfinger​s

  • Jedi Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 339
Re: Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality
« Reply #188 on: January 12, 2017, 08:04:13 PM »
From ISOTM:

......

The question comes to this: From what and how can a permanent center of gravity be created?

 And to this may be replied that only a man's attitude to the work, to school, his valuation of the work, and his realization of the mechanicalness and aimlessness of everything else can create in him a permanent center of gravity."


This seems to me to be the crux of the matter. I'm thinking that sex drive in a broken machine (ie wrong work of centers) is the primary mechanism of the general law which keeps mankind available as "food for the moon." Driving all manner of wrong ideas, assumptions, fantasies, etc.

Great thread

I could be wrong but I'm also beginning to think that this is the case, malfunction of the machine. That our sexual drive is another program we inherited from this sex-driven world(with it's roots in our biology). Working on our machine and reprogramming our centers to work appropriately in regards to the work should also align our sexual center's function accordingly. Of course there should be some discussion and research on how two people go about the process of courtship, weather it be biological or learnt, so as to learn how our mechanical urges manifest themselves as we try to feed ourself in sts manner.

Maybe one thing I think people should look out for is their intent and anticipation(although we should know better) they have in meeting and getting closer to another. And in doing so work on not associating with any urges and interact like a child would with another child(as laura mentioned).

For those who are really struggling with their machine maybe learning the manner of courtship mechanics will help them discover when their urges take over and more so to recognize what actions lead to sexual gratification and how to stop them cold on their tracks.
“We often think we express negative emotions, not because we cannot help it, but because we "should" express them.”
― P.D. Ouspensky, The Fourth Way

“Every minute of every day, the universe sits across the dance floor, making eyes at us in the hopes that we will ask it to dance. Do we declare that we first must have proof that the universe is real and safe, or do we just shut up and dance, and see what happens?

Offline BHelmet

  • Jedi Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 357
Re: Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality
« Reply #189 on: January 12, 2017, 09:28:51 PM »
I am re-thinking this a bit. Appropriate or not, Ariana Grande's expression of sexuality IS american culture. Of course this is not 'organic' culture (from the grassroots up but instead it is promoted and created from the top down). There are many examples of public display/dance that celebrate sexuality in a more artistic and healthy way. Hula is a very feminine form of expression and Tahitian dance - while way more energetic and expressive - is still more 'fun' than 'come on let me entice you to be overcome by the basest instincts' (while also degrading the feminine archetype as well as debasing what is possible in a sexual union between the sexes)

But Ariana's method and style is what is being promoted in the US (and by way of implication) around the world. It is what it is. Like the C's said - we are the most heavily propagandized country around, and whether it be fake political lies from CNN and the CIA or psychic/social programming from Hollywood and the entertainment industry, ours is a top-down controlled society. A not so brave new world. Sigh - it feels like the negative bombardment - a world going mad. It may be a silver lining, to paraphrase Gurdjieff, that as the world descends into chaotic madness, great progress can be made in esoteric work, but, it feels depressing at the moment to me.


Offline nicklebleu

  • The Living Force
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,410
  • Surfing Reality ...
Re: Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality
« Reply #190 on: January 13, 2017, 01:40:12 PM »
I am re-thinking this a bit. Appropriate or not, Ariana Grande's expression of sexuality IS american culture. Of course this is not 'organic' culture (from the grassroots up but instead it is promoted and created from the top down). There are many examples of public display/dance that celebrate sexuality in a more artistic and healthy way. Hula is a very feminine form of expression and Tahitian dance - while way more energetic and expressive - is still more 'fun' than 'come on let me entice you to be overcome by the basest instincts' (while also degrading the feminine archetype as well as debasing what is possible in a sexual union between the sexes)

I agree - and Flamenco or Argentine Tango come to mind - both very formal, but at the same time very sensual.
Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Ulysses - Tennyson

Offline DianaRose94

  • Padawan Learner
  • ***
  • Posts: 92
Re: Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality
« Reply #191 on: January 13, 2017, 04:06:13 PM »
I am re-thinking this a bit. Appropriate or not, Ariana Grande's expression of sexuality IS american culture. Of course this is not 'organic' culture (from the grassroots up but instead it is promoted and created from the top down). There are many examples of public display/dance that celebrate sexuality in a more artistic and healthy way. Hula is a very feminine form of expression and Tahitian dance - while way more energetic and expressive - is still more 'fun' than 'come on let me entice you to be overcome by the basest instincts' (while also degrading the feminine archetype as well as debasing what is possible in a sexual union between the sexes)

But Ariana's method and style is what is being promoted in the US (and by way of implication) around the world. It is what it is. Like the C's said - we are the most heavily propagandized country around, and whether it be fake political lies from CNN and the CIA or psychic/social programming from Hollywood and the entertainment industry, ours is a top-down controlled society. A not so brave new world. Sigh - it feels like the negative bombardment - a world going mad. It may be a silver lining, to paraphrase Gurdjieff, that as the world descends into chaotic madness, great progress can be made in esoteric work, but, it feels depressing at the moment to me.


I had this in mind as well. There's this thing called twerking which is inspired from a West African dance. This dance is sensual but yet it never come as close as the explicit sexual move that twerking is.
Peace, Love and Light

Offline josev

  • Padawan Learner
  • ***
  • Posts: 61
  • It is what you choose to do, not what you MUST do
Re: Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality
« Reply #192 on: January 18, 2017, 09:46:00 AM »
Hi everyone! I just read the whole thread and I found it very instructive. Someone said maybe people who don't do the work won't understand or won't be interested in addressing the issue of sexuality as discussed here but there are several points here that could be helpful for some. Perhaps someone could make one publishable in Sott with the contributions, both individual and global perspective could be useful. I would have offered myself if I thought I could do it decently :D

---

Recently I saw a short video of Camila Paglia who commented on the subject of dress, female freedom and equality with man, I think that could be extrapolated to other things. Here is: https://youtu.be/udWNkPhffUQ

More or less she says: There are great responsibilities that come with freedom ... and one is that you must take responsibility for you own defense ... of the dangers of the world ... the primitive human energy and psychotics. We want freedom but at the same time we want the government or someone to protect us from the consequences of that freedom

---

I also think that the political correct issue, the fight for sexual freedom (or sexual depravation) or the fight against "traditional values" serves geopolitically to the empire. Among my acquaintances I see many who sympathize with the US besides its foreign policy only for Obama and the opposite with Russia, because "they hate freedom and are religious, homophobic and all the retrograde that is left of the world".

Kinda makes you wonder what's really going on here. It almost seems like divide and conquer on an epic scale. Destroy what it means to be a woman, destroy what it means to be a man - oh heck just destroy gender completely - and then let everyone get really, REALLY pissed off at each other because everyone is ignoring some aspect of reality and not considering each other at all.
So, especially in the context of the Work and especially for this "hot button" issue, we should strive to avoid The Snowflake Effect at all costs. Primarily, that just means thinking critically at all times, considering all sides, and not letting how we feel in the moment color everyone and everything.
 

I recently met the definition of cultural Marxism, leaving aside if the term is adequate, I think it describes the main points of that goal to divide and conquer that's going on this days (in the Spanish version there are more details)
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism

Offline josev

  • Padawan Learner
  • ***
  • Posts: 61
  • It is what you choose to do, not what you MUST do
Re: Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality
« Reply #193 on: January 18, 2017, 10:26:29 AM »
It seems that sexual energy, without fully understanding all that it encompasses, is an important part of all the suffering and chaos in humans on a general and individual level (I do not know whether the energy itself or the misuse, if indeed we can used it in a good way, for what I learned so far I vote "no" for sex at least) :D

This is what caught my attention, also other passages of G. and C's on the subject of sexual energy and made me think about my life, the decisions I made and how it developed. I'll write next time, maybe I should write in another post

For starters, a couple of things Gurdjieff said come to mind. The first was along the lines of, "All social interaction is motivated by sex." Now, exactly what G. meant by sex, only a handful of people probably know, but in the context of how he said it and how I read it, it seemed to me that he meant the literal act of having sex.
The other thing he said was that "Man's evolution goes against nature."
<snip>
Good post, T.C.
I just want to add to your point here:
...by suggesting that there is variation in the 'moral cohesiveness' of society over time. So yes, "there's nothing new under the Sun" - these 'natural' conditions we find ourselves in today manifest repeatedly over time - but they do not appear to be the long-term norm. Fischer, in The Great Wave: Price Revolutions and the Rhythm of History, illustrates that divorce rates, STDs, rapes, other violent crimes, etc. in Europe remained relatively stable before 'exploding' at certain points in history. He's an economic historian, so his primary focus was on economic factors like interest rates and commodity prices. He couldn't help but notice, however, that a whole array of social and climatological factors are correlated with them. That suppression, as you call it, apparently made for stable growth and (relatively) healthier society, until such time as whatever factor(s) no-longer-suppresses people's drives quickly leads to widespread degradation in 'the world of A influences' - sometimes with catastrophic consequences for the society/civilization in question.

Like other religious episodes I read of Laura's investigations, this thought sex is evil seems to contain more truth than lies, but it is so "outlandish" that ensures endless wars XD

Ok, I really don't see it so black but I'd like to learn more about this.

Offline ajseph 21

  • Jedi
  • ****
  • Posts: 199
Re: Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality
« Reply #194 on: January 27, 2017, 03:14:22 PM »
Another great topic for sure and a question just popped in my head.. With all of this said what role does sexual abuse have to play in the expression of sexuality? Its been said that its rampant in our society and maybe a lot of this gender theory and guilt/ shame and even hypersexuality has something to do with it. Or at least it may make the programming easier. Any thoughts?