Alzheimer and Soul development

[irjO]

Today I shared with my grandmother, sadly she suffers from Alzheimer's disease and is in an advanced stage, plus she hardly sees as she lost sight for years, it really breaks my heart when I see her, she simply is acting like a little girl again with her emotions and having vague memories .. I can not imagine being in that state and at least know what could it feel .. Having investigated Alzheimer's disease data and how it works, I've always had a doubt that over time I have looked somehow without getting an accurate answer ..

What happens to the soul when a person suffers from this disease so advanced? I mean, if the person with this disease dies, his soul returns to its normal state of memories into the 5th density? or just go back in their lessons from that life? .. perhaps this question also applies to those who lose their memory permanently too i guess ..

I searched a bit on the forum and got the following:

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic, 17420.msg155421.html # msg155421

There is the mention of the death of several centers before physical death and that is something but i doesn't quite answer my question, so the question that i would like to ask to the Cs (and the rest of the forum) would be: Can affect Alzheimer disease the soul of an individual in any way?

 

[Kaigen]

:) I can`t answer your question, but did you know about Coconuts oil?

_http://mental-health.helium.com/how-to/12340-how-to-treat-dementia-and-alzheimer-with-coconut-oil

 

[irjO]

:) I can`t answer your question, but did you know about Coconuts oil?

_http://mental-health.helium.com/how-to/12340-how-to-treat-dementia-and-alzheimer-with-coconut-oil

Sure! I did know the benefits of coconuts oil! But my question in this case is more about the spiritual implication than the physical.. thanks for you reply Kaigen :)

 

[Gertrudes]

There is the mention of the death of several centers before physical death and that is something but i doesn't quite answer my question, so the question that i would like to ask to the Cs (and the rest of the forum) would be: Can affect Alzheimer disease the soul of an individual in any way?

The way I see it, the brain is simply a filter through which consciousness expresses itself in our 3D world. We can hypothesize that a healthier brain could be a better vehicle for the growth of the soul, but we also don't know whether choosing a body with a faulty brain, or a brain that is to become faulty isn't part of that person's chosen lesson, therefore part of a set of circumstances created with the intent of growth.

Regarding your question, all in all I don't think so. I don't think that having Alzheimer would affect the soul anymore than having a non Alzheimer brain or lacking a limb. Our bodies and brains are our instruments, the instruments of our soul, not who we are.

Have you also checked the How do those who are mentally impaired achieve soul expansion? thread?

 

[irjO]

There is the mention of the death of several centers before physical death and that is something but i doesn't quite answer my question, so the question that i would like to ask to the Cs (and the rest of the forum) would be: Can affect Alzheimer disease the soul of an individual in any way?

The way I see it, the brain is simply a filter through which consciousness expresses itself in our 3D world. We can hypothesize that a healthier brain could be a better vehicle for the growth of the soul, but we also don't know whether choosing a body with a faulty brain, or a brain that is to become faulty isn't part of that person's chosen lesson, therefore part of a set of circumstances created with the intent of growth.

Regarding your question, all in all I don't think so. I don't think that having Alzheimer would affect the soul anymore than having a non Alzheimer brain or lacking a limb. Our bodies and brains are our instruments, the instruments of our soul, not who we are.

Have you also checked the How do those who are mentally impaired achieve soul expansion? thread?

I think i little bit like you actually.. And i haven't checked that thread but i'm doing it now, its hard to see a person you love going through that.. And maybe its more a linear concept concern but i'd like to think that is just a lesson and when you pass away your soul isn't affected at all and the memories are the same (as it should be i guess) but you know i kind of doubd that every time i see her.. :/

 

[obyvatel]

Hi irjO,
I am sorry to hear about your grandmother. It is very painful to watch someone you love slowly deteriorate like this. Along with doing what can be done in such situations, we can only work on accepting and feeling the pain as a part of our own lesson profile - osit.

Regarding your concern about the retention of memory, modern science is not yet able to provide any definitive answers. Gurdjieff, who has been proved right in his assertions about the human existence time and again before modern psychology and neuroscience can catch up, had this to say about memories.

Gurdjieff contended that everything that happens to us is registered in the memory rolls of our different centers from the time of our birth. We can consciously access only a very small portion of this entire experience even with what is considered to be a fully functional brain but it is possible under special circumstances - like putting a person in a hypnotic state - to recall experiences which are not remembered otherwise. This view does find agreement in modern somatic psychology which asserts that "the body remembers".

So based on this, it can perhaps be said that life experiences are not irretrievably lost when a person suffers from dementia or Alzheimers and the memories are available for use by the consciousness in the sense of soul lessons and progress.

fwiw

 

[Voyageur]

Hi irjO,
I am sorry to hear about your grandmother. It is very painful to watch someone you love slowly deteriorate like this. Along with doing what can be done in such situations, we can only work on accepting and feeling the pain as a part of our own lesson profile - osit.

Regarding your concern about the retention of memory, modern science is not yet able to provide any definitive answers. Gurdjieff, who has been proved right in his assertions about the human existence time and again before modern psychology and neuroscience can catch up, had this to say about memories.

Gurdjieff contended that everything that happens to us is registered in the memory rolls of our different centers from the time of our birth. We can consciously access only a very small portion of this entire experience even with what is considered to be a fully functional brain but it is possible under special circumstances - like putting a person in a hypnotic state - to recall experiences which are not remembered otherwise. This view does find agreement in modern somatic psychology which asserts that "the body remembers".

So based on this, it can perhaps be said that life experiences are not irretrievably lost when a person suffers from dementia or Alzheimers and the memories are available for use by the consciousness in the sense of soul lessons and progress.

fwiw

Very sorry also irjO that you are having to experience this with your grandmother. Think obyvatel succinctly captures G's thoughts on this, which can represent so many ultimate failures of the body/mind aging or earlier life causation. If thinking this way seems to register with you, sharing simple means with your grandmother as she moves along, like holding her hand, would be something "the body remembers" for you both.

fwiw, too.

 

[Laura]

The brain is the tool of the spirit and I guess it depends on how you use it while it is functional. It can begin to wear out and stop working and for different people, that takes different modes and happens at different times. So I figure when it happens, the soul is just in the process of withdrawing.

 

[Jones]

So I figure when it happens, the soul is just in the process of withdrawing.

That's kind of what I felt when my grandfather died after suffering alzheimers and dementia - that he just left a little at a time over the course of many years.

 

[Bluestar]

Sorry to hear about your grandmom irjO, from experience I know the difficulty and the feelings that one experiences in such a situation.

So I figure when it happens, the soul is just in the process of withdrawing.

That's kind of what I felt when my grandfather died after suffering Alzheimer's and dementia - that he just left a little at a time over the course of many years.

This is also how I see it. My grandmother and my mom have both experienced some form of dementia. Grandmom's passed on though she lived for 10 years with the dis-ease, the last 3 were without a small remembrance of who she was. A very painful experience for the family because it seemed her body just hung on with no one inside. While my mother at this point seems to be living in the moment. So I choose to call her everyday to see how she is doing and chat with her, even if the same question or topic comes up several times. Visit with her as often as I can and constantly remind her to take her meds and that I love her. It is very emotionally painful for me cause my mother and I are very close.

I am not sure what the lesson for the person going through an illness like this is maybe some kind of unfinished business or something like that. I feel that the true lessons are for those that love them. Many blessings to you and your family.

 

[irjO]

Hi irjO,
I am sorry to hear about your grandmother. It is very painful to watch someone you love slowly deteriorate like this. Along with doing what can be done in such situations, we can only work on accepting and feeling the pain as a part of our own lesson profile - osit.

Regarding your concern about the retention of memory, modern science is not yet able to provide any definitive answers. Gurdjieff, who has been proved right in his assertions about the human existence time and again before modern psychology and neuroscience can catch up, had this to say about memories.

Gurdjieff contended that everything that happens to us is registered in the memory rolls of our different centers from the time of our birth. We can consciously access only a very small portion of this entire experience even with what is considered to be a fully functional brain but it is possible under special circumstances - like putting a person in a hypnotic state - to recall experiences which are not remembered otherwise. This view does find agreement in modern somatic psychology which asserts that "the body remembers".

So based on this, it can perhaps be said that life experiences are not irretrievably lost when a person suffers from dementia or Alzheimers and the memories are available for use by the consciousness in the sense of soul lessons and progress.

fwiw

i see.. thanks for that quote obyvatel! this along with this:

The brain is the tool of the spirit and I guess it depends on how you use it while it is functional. It can begin to wear out and stop working and for different people, that takes different modes and happens at different times. So I figure when it happens, the soul is just in the process of withdrawing.

clarifies much of what I've been thinking about this topic.. thank you!

Sorry to hear about your grandmom irjO, from experience I know the difficulty and the feelings that one experiences in such a situation.

So I figure when it happens, the soul is just in the process of withdrawing.

That's kind of what I felt when my grandfather died after suffering Alzheimer's and dementia - that he just left a little at a time over the course of many years.

This is also how I see it. My grandmother and my mom have both experienced some form of dementia. Grandmom's passed on though she lived for 10 years with the dis-ease, the last 3 were without a small remembrance of who she was. A very painful experience for the family because it seemed her body just hung on with no one inside. While my mother at this point seems to be living in the moment. So I choose to call her everyday to see how she is doing and chat with her, even if the same question or topic comes up several times. Visit with her as often as I can and constantly remind her to take her meds and that I love her. It is very emotionally painful for me cause my mother and I are very close.

I am not sure what the lesson for the person going through an illness like this is maybe some kind of unfinished business or something like that. I feel that the true lessons are for those that love them. Many blessings to you and your family.

Oh.. so nice that your mom have you supporting her and giving her love.. it is really difficult to be in that situation with someone you care and love! this is a lesson not only for those individuals suffering from the disease but for all the people around, especially family members!

 

[Buddy]

Hi irjO.

In David Shenk's book "The Forgetting", there are some interesting perspectives regarding Alzheimers that many people don't know about. Mostly anecdotal, but interesting nonetheless.

In New York City, there's a substantial population of not-too-formally educated immigrants that serve the home healthcare market and they talk about their experiences. Seems that the general consensus among them is that Alzheimers comes from "too much education". Their patients are mostly highly educated people, like Doctors, Lawyers, professors, etc.

Sure, it's possible that those patients were the ones who had the insurance that hired the workers in the first place and that might be a relevant variable. Still, most of the stories are about the highly educated and refined vs. the not-so-educated-but-live-emotionally, even if they're the 'wicked' type, because, in the worker's opinions, those types of people show very few signs of decline that way.

There are no bottom lines here, I think, but it might be that 'feeling center memory' operates via a different mechanism that the intellectual center memory and may not suffer that kind of decline. I say that because people who have suffered injuries leading to total anteriograde amnesia (the loss of the ability to form new memories) do retain the ability to learn new feeling center things. For example, they can recognize the approaching footsteps of care assistants that get along well or poorly with them and react accordingly, even though they have no intellectual memory of having met them before.

Unfortunately, clinical researchers in this area don't know about Gurdjieff's three center model or apparently the difference between emotional IQ and the intellect's equivalent, so there hasn't been much study in this area beyond Dr. Greg A. Sachs work at Indiana University School of Medicine and those anecdotes mentioned.

So, with regard to the 'soul', probably the best bet is on what truth has been and is being gathered through the feeling center, assuming that is a core task of "soul growth."

So, I'm with obyvatel on this one, but these are just my thoughts, FWIW.

 

[Gaby]

In New York City, there's a substantial population of not-too-formally educated immigrants that serve the home healthcare market and they talk about their experiences. Seems that the general consensus among them is that Alzheimers comes from "too much education". Their patients are mostly highly educated people, like Doctors, Lawyers, professors, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised as "too much education" can often mean too much conversive thinking inculcation when no "real thinking" is done at all. From Ponerology:

Our reasoning faculties continue to develop throughout our entire active lives, thus, accurate judgmental abilities do not peak until our hair starts greying and the drive of instinct, emotion, and habit begins to abate. It is a collective product derived from an interaction between man and his environment, and from many generations’ worth of creation and transmission. The environment may also have a destructive influence upon the development of our reasoning faculties. In its environment in particular, the human mind is contaminated by conversive thinking, which is the most common anomaly in this process. [...]

Within the context of maximum hysterical intensity in Europe at the time, the authentic article represented a typical product of conversive thinking: subconscious selection and substitution of data lead to chronic avoidance of the crux of the matter. [...]

The conversive features in the genesis of para-moralisms seem to prove they are derived from mostly subconscious rejection (and repression from the field of consciousness) of something completely different, which we call the voice of conscience. A ponerologist can nevertheless indicate many observations supporting the opinion that the various pathological factors participate in the tendency to use para-moralisms. This was the case in the above-mentioned family. As occurs with a moralizing interpretation, this tendency intensifies in egotists and hysterics, and its causes are similar. Like all conversive phenomena, the tendency to use para-moralisms is psychologically contagious. That explains why we observe it among people raised by individuals in whom it was developed alongside pathological factors. [...]

Information selection and substitution: The existence of psychological phenomena known a long time ago to pre-Freudian philosophical students of the subconscious bears repeating. Unconscious psychological processes outstrip conscious reasoning, both in time and in scope, which makes many psychological phenomena possible: including those generally described as conversive, such as subconscious blocking out of conclusions, the selection, and, also, substitution of seemingly uncomfortable premises. [...]

Our subconscious may carry the roots of human genius within, but its operation is not perfect; sometimes it is reminiscent of a blind computer, especially whenever we allow it to be cluttered with anxiously rejected material. This explains why conscious monitoring, even at the price of courageously accepting disintegrative states, is likewise necessary to our nature, not to mention our individual and social good. [...]

There is no such thing as a person whose perfect self-knowledge allows him to eliminate all tendencies toward conversive thinking, but some people are relatively close to this state, while others remain slaves to these processes. Those people who use conversive operations too often for the purpose of finding convenient conclusions, or constructing some cunning para-logistic or para-moralistic statements, in time undertake such behavior for ever more trivial reasons, losing the capacity for conscious control over their thought process. This necessarily leads to behavior errors which must be paid for by others as well as themselves. [...]

A normal person’s actions and reactions, his ideas and moral criteria, all too often strike abnormal individuals as abnormal. For if a person with some psychological deviations considers himself normal, which is of course significantly easier if he possesses authority, then he would consider a normal person different and therefore abnormal, whether really or as a result of conversive thinking. That explains why such people’s government shall always have the tendency to treat any dissidents as “mentally abnormal”.

Sort of "use it or lose it". I can recall elderly people when growing up in the "third world". They were respected and very much loved by younger generations. They had that inner strength of having lived a worthwhile productive life in their local communities. They were at peace as it were. I remember hardly ever knowing ANY person with Alzheimer's or any other brain degenerative disease among them. Now it is the norm rather than the exception among the "first world". Elderly are discarded as useless disposable beings who no longer are needed in a conversive society when there are younger and more readily available pawns.

 

[Buddy]

[quote author=Ponerology]
For if a person with some psychological deviations considers himself normal, which is of course significantly easier if he possesses authority, then he would consider a normal person different and therefore abnormal, whether really or as a result of conversive thinking.

No doubt, and since Psychiatry seems so often used as a tool of coercive systems, it's no wonder there's no category called "normal" in the DSM. I suppose it would be too easy to identify deviants who are dangerous to others and their property.

 

[irjO]

For if a person with some psychological deviations considers himself normal, which is of course significantly easier if he possesses authority, then he would consider a normal person different and therefore abnormal, whether really or as a result of conversive thinking.

And it seems that the "souled individuals" are the ones who often are seems like the 'not normal' people by the system..