Another instant 'attack'?

Saman

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
It seems the MCS has already made a sudden and unexpected 'attack' upon me for perhaps saying too much in the Organic Portal thread, but this time not directly upon me but on my mother again in another way that is more directly physiological rather then financially psychological a couple of years ago through a case of SIN ID and bank account fraud!?!

I just came home from my job, and my brother called me just now and stated that my mom is in the hospital for hurting her back and that he came over and took her to the hospital because she wasn't able to move. The reason why I am stating that this seems to be an 'attack' is due to the synchronicity of she stating that she had hurt her back in the exact moment I finished the prior post and left my room to head to my job - was this an instant 'attack'? In that moment, my mother told me that she had hurt her back somehow when she was getting up and that she had some trouble moving, but she didn't say anything else to imply that it was probably a more serious case that would be a severe case of a back spasm, and from what sort of laborous activity, well I don't know since she hasn't done anything to my knowledge to cause this stress on her body, and so, in that moment I just thought it was some normal and common back pain, and that it she just needed to rest, and that was that, or so I thought. So the situation didn't seem to be that serious in that moment to indicate that she needed to go to the hospital! She simply said goodbye to me after I said bye to her after our conversation and started heading downstairs and out the door to my job and nothing to indicate that she needed to go to the hospital... Well, the situation was not as common and simple as I thought it would be with a normal case of a back pain. I am no doctor but this looks like a sevre case of back spasm, but the source of this synchronous back spasm in regards to the prior post, well...anyways, I gotta go, my borther just called me and asked me to bring my mother shoes to the hospital on my way there. I hope it is not too serious and that she is going to be ok to leave tonight.
 
Hi Saman,

I hope your mother recovers quickly and that it is nothing serious. Interesting you should post this just now. I was heading home from work about an hour ago, and despite circumstances being "fine" on the outside, I had this weird "punched in the gut" feeling that was unbalancing my lower emotional centre quite strongly. It has abated somewhat now, but it was very surprising and disconcerting to say the least.

Anyway, my best wishes to yourself and your family.
 
Saman said:
It seems the MCS has already made a sudden and unexpected 'attack' upon me for perhaps saying too much in the Organic Portal thread, but this time not directly upon me but on my mother...
Considering the discussion on the OP thread, it strikes me that this "attack" could more easily be the "MCS" or the "General Law" acting in such a way as to convince you that your discussion on the OP thread is of more importance than it actually is, thus contributing to an already elevated sense of self-importance that is problematical.

One must also consider the idea that family members can be OPs and thus activated when necessary to do precisely that.

I should also add that, the very fact that you have given such an interpretation to this event as you have, suggests very strongly that those areas I have emphasized in the OP discussion as important for study are the very areas where you are obviously lacking insight. "Seeing the Unseen" is not so easy as one might wish, but is absolutely crucial. To decide that a thing is "thus and so" based on erroneous understanding, and then to assimilate that as "truth" only decreseas FRV.
 
Interesting that you posted such observation, Saman. I've went through two rather unpleasant experiences, which occured right after my postings on SOTT forum. I usually read posts during my working hours and write posts in the evening. After posting in a thread http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1316 I woke up in the morning with terrible pain in the chest, in the heart area. It felt like something very heavy fell down on my chest and was sitting there. I couldn't move without experiencing pain, so I just stayed in one position, keeped being calm and breathed. I wasn't frightened and I knew it will pass. After fifteen minutes I was able to get up.
Another case was after my final post in http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1316 thread. This one was a tougher one - I woke up with pain in whole chest. I had to work and keep on going with every-day responsibilities, so I had no choice, but get up and get things done. I wasn't easy. Pain lasted over a week, after that it started to diminish. Well, those are the things that just happen, I guess. After reading Laura's "Amazing Grace" and Wave Series I'm hardly surprised with such things.

Also, thank You, Laura for self-importance remark, for I think it may apply to me as well. Could you elaborate a little bit further on such cases or provide some guidance, what material should we read to comprehend the phenomena?
 
j0da said:
Another case was after my final post in http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1316 thread. This one was a tougher one - I woke up with pain in whole chest. I had to work and keep on going with every-day responsibilities, so I had no choice, but get up and get things done. I wasn't easy. Pain lasted over a week, after that it started to diminish. Well, those are the things that just happen, I guess.
That doesn't sound like something that should be treated as, "Well, those are the things that just happen, I guess."

Did you see a doctor about it?
 
Ryan, I would go to a doctor, if I really thought I should. I'm rather well acquainted to my body. It causes me almost no problems, except a little pains in the back from time to time, because I sit long hours in front of the computer - for earning money, learning and relaxation. I consider myself quite a healthy man and because of that I found those occurences very strange. I hadn't any injury or accident, nor did I fall down recently or exposed my body to unhealthy conditions. Those pains were the type of "stress pain" in the internal chest muscles..eer - how do they call them..core muscles? Also, the pain was felt in between ribs muscles. Again, there was no ordinary cause for this type of discomfort and because of that I considered that it's some kind of psychosomatic reaction to "something". In my opinion seeing a doctor in such cases is meaningless, for they usually prescribe some damn pills which do one no good. Well, it's true - I don't trust western medicine practicioners and I try to stay away from them. If I broke a bone, or cut myself badly - that's another case - I wouldn't hesitate to visit one, but in other more subtle instances - I'd rather visit tibetan doctor.
 
I just got back from the hospital with my mother about half an hour or so ago. I misunderstood my brother when he said that he took her to the hospital. In fact what happened was that an ambulance came and four people lifted her on a stretcher and took her there and my brother followed them with his car. My mother was surprised that this happened as well, but after seeking more details from here on what she did today, it all makes sense now. She was moving furniture around in her room by herself without asking me for help; hence according to the doctor, she sprained some back mussels to the point of being temporarily paralyzed from the pain. Anyways, they gave her some Tylenol Threes and a prescription for more that I will get tomorrow before going to work. I've told her to please do not move anything else ever again on her. She said she was feeling somewhat "macho" today and thought her physical fitness was better then what it is, and so, she ended up over exerting herself. Therefore, it was nothing something that unusual and so based on further data from my mother, I currently don't think it was an 'attack', but something that more or less happened coincidently at that very moment I got out of my room. Perhaps it is karmic in the sense that I have to now take care of my mother until next week, and then she is going to have a surgery to have her bladder moved up, and so, I will have to take care of her more the next few months it seems.
Hopefully she will be ok to move about with relative ease before her surgery.

Moreover, as far as having an emotional attachment to the speculations about 4D and so forth in the Organic Portal thread due to the 'inner dog's' self importance, I don't see this to be the case within because I was not seeking emotionally feel-good chemical confirmation for perhaps my own "sacred cows" about 4D reality being the way that I imagine it to be due to some speculations and intuitions, which may be false anyways since as you have stated, we won't really "get it" until we graduate to 4D, whenever that may be, or perhaps may not be since it is "open". They were just some notions based on some concepts that the C's had explained in the sessions and nothing more or nothing less. I was very surprised of what happened just when I finished the post in question because there isn't anything really new or significant within the context of that post in my opinion since most of what was stated in that post has been already mentioned in CassChat before in the 'past' by different individuals but I currently don't think it was all organized in one post as far as I know, which however, doesn't make it any special feat in itself anyways.
 
First, one has to consider that, in ordinary life, accept it as a given that you live in a state of "anarchy of the three centres of the Personality".

This circle of ordinary life was described by Gurdjieff as follows:

Gurdjieff as recorded by Ouspensky said:
The first sign of this circle is that among people who belong to it there is not and there cannot be a common understanding. Everybody understands in his own way and all differently. This circle is sometimes called the circle of the 'confusion of tongues,' that is, the circle in which each one speaks in his own particular language, where no one understands another and takes no trouble to be understood. In this circle mutual understanding between people is impossible excepting in rare exceptional moments or in matters having no great significance, and which are confined to the limits of the given being.
Let me interrupt here and point out that Saman's discourse on the OP thread, including his misunderstanding of ordinary communication leading to a failure to give information when asked, returning instead a rather manipulative response, indicates strongly (and if he were observing himself honestly, he would have seen this) that this is the "level of humanity" to which he belongs.

The first work that must be done is to become part of a group and learn to COMMUNICATE. In fact, there are several threads on this forum already where living examples of failure to acknowledge this problem of communication are laid out.

So, communicating, both in giving information and understanding what is said by others, is basic work. And it IS work. A person has to know the human machine - his own and others - very well in order to begin to solve this most fundamental problem.

Therefore, the evidence that one has failed in this most essential of tasks should give one pause about one's ability to "read the environment" adequately.

This, of course, leads to the problem of "tuning the reading instrument."

Mouravieff tells us:

Mouravieff said:
We cannot reach the objective except through the medium of the subjective. This is the underlying reason for esoteric studies: they allow the exterior man to give objective validity to his subjective mentality. He can achieve this by a technique analogous to one we apply to precision instruments: before putting them to work, we determine the reading error of each. By taking the 'subjectivity' of instruments into account in this way, we obtain correct readings from them, in spite of their flaws. To observe the phenomena of our internal world and those of the external world with precision, we must have recognized and determined the reading error of our mental instrument for observation, one of the main tools of the Personality. All esoteric teaching is oriented towards this goal, which is reached with the second Birth-when man attains a new form of consciousness and existence which is quite different, objective-and which exterior man can only represent to himself in a vague and obscure way.
"Tuning the reading instrument" is the work of learning to accurately "see the unseen."

This can only be done in a group, with constant feedback from other members in the form of a "mirror."

Now, when you think in terms of "observing the self," you are effectively looking at yourself in a mirror. When you look in a mirror, you see everything reversed. To recognize wherever is AS IT IS means acquiring discernment.

The problem is amplified when you consider that you are trying to detect the "REAL" via the personality which you mis-read because you see it inverted. That is why it is often difficult to discern "true" from "false." You are seeing it via the mirror of your personality.

And so, it is necessary to have a second mirror that restores the view to the "right" perspective. This is feedback from a group of sincere seekers who have agreed to be totally sincere with one another. What one person cannot see in themselves, or that they see "reversed" can be seen more easily by another.

Getting back to Gurdjieff:

Gurdjieff said:
If people belonging to this circle become conscious of this general lack of understanding and acquire a desire to understand and to be understood, then it means they have an unconscious tendency towards the inner circle because mutual understanding begins only in the exoteric circle and is possible only there.
So it is that becoming aware first of one's general lack of understanding, and wishing to understand and be understood is the thread of Ariadne that can lead one to the portal of "The Work."

This wishing to understand and be understood is part of a general proclivity for discernment. As it happens, tuning the instrument in terms of communication between people - sincere communication, that is - as well as learning to be sincere in communications with the self, leads then to the next step: discering between "A" and "B" influences. Again, that is "Seeing the Unseen," correctly reading the symbol systems of our reality and giving each thing its due.

Mouravieff said:
"Exact and precise discernment between 'A' and 'B' influences creates the embryo of the magnetic centre. Under the influence of the latter, the seeker is drawn towards the first Threshold."

Having reached this point, man has entered a path. He is placed face to face with Life: his own life, with its own soluble and insoluble problems.

This is his first esoteric test. This test consists of a general reassessment of values. The results obtained depend upon the objectivity and courage brought to the task.

One must exert a conscious effort upon oneself so as not to 'dodge the issue' or lie to oneself during this reevaluation. One must consider and analyze those about one, face facts and attribute their intrinsic value to them without compromise or pity for oneself or others. One must, naturally, keep the results of this re-evaluation to oneself.
Keeping it to oneself means that one isn't supposed to go and tell the family, friends, co-workers, etc that you have now spent some considerable time evaluating them and have some conclusion. And in fact, again the network is invaluable. How do you know that your evaluation is correct if you do not have a "mirror" to help correct the reading instrument? Again, the mirror is the group, the network.

And in order to get accurate feedback, you must give accurate, unbiased information to the network, without pity for yourself or those you seek to evaluate.

This process can be greatly speeded up within such a network of sincere seekers. It can be also more difficult and painful because you may be told things that you don't like to hear; things that you resist and try to worm your way around.

Mouravieff said:
This done, one must draw certain conclusions. Is one losing interest in exterior life, which unfolds exclusively under the sway of factors of influence 'A', and to what extent? Is the centre of gravity of the Personality being displaced towards the magnetic centre? Is a real emphasis being given to it?

At this time, a choice must be made.

It would be better to withdraw before crossing the first Threshold than, having cut oneself off from the region of bourgeois happiness, to wish to regain it later. The Way is a one-way street. After the Threshold there is only one option: either to progress on the Way or to fall. From now on, any return to the original state will be forbidden. If the magnetic centre is pure and sufficiently firm, a man of influence 'C' appears: the first Threshold will be crossed under his direction.
Again, the "Man of Influence C" is the Group of sincere seekers. For me it was literally the C's (we find a lot of humor in that) and we have modified and adapted their methods in working with me to the uses of the group. (And this, according to advice and insights gained from the C's.)

Once one has crossed this first threshold, one is then in what could be called an "intermediate" group. But there is no point in speaking of that now since just getting to the point of being able to communicate accurately and precisely and being able to accurately and precisely "see" the self is already a big thing. It takes courage and a burning desire. Gurdjieff once addressed himself to the question of what KIND of people are able to work in this most rapid - and painful and difficult - of ways. In this discussion, there is an element of what it means to begin to re-evaluate those around you, to "tune your reading instrument."

Gurdjieff said:
"You must understand that a man should have, first, a certain preparation, certain luggage. He should know what it is possible to know through ordinary channels about the ideas of esotericism, about hidden knowledge, about possibilities of the inner evolution of man, and so on. What I mean is that these ideas ought not to appear to him as something entirely new. Otherwise it is difficult to speak to him.

"It is useful also if he has at least some scientific or philosophical preparation.

"If a man has a good knowledge of religion, this can also be useful. But if he is tied to religious forms and has no understanding of their essence, he will find it very difficult.

"In general, if a man knows but little, has read but little, has thought but little, it is difficult to talk to him.

"If he has a good essence there is another way for him without any talks at all, but in this case he has to be obedient, he has to give up his will. And he has to come to this also in some way or other.

"It can be said that there is one general rule for everybody. In order to approach this system seriously, people must be disappointed, first of all in themselves, that is to say, in their powers, and secondly in all the old ways.

"A man cannot feel what is most valuable in the system unless he is disappointed in what he has been doing, disappointed in what he has been searching for.

"If he is a scientist he should be disappointed in his science If he is a religious man he should be disappointed in his religion If he is a politician he should be disappointed in politics If he is a philosopher he should be disappointed in philosophy If he is a theosophist he should be disappointed in theosophy If he is an occultist he should be disappointed in occultism And so on.

"But you must understand what this means. I say for instance that a religious man should be disappointed in religion This does not mean that he should lose his faith. On the contrary, it means being 'disappointed' in the teaching and the methods only, realizing that the religious teaching he knows is not enough for him, can lead him nowhere

"All religious teachings, excepting of course the completely degenerated religions of savages and the invented religions and sects of modern times, consist of two parts, the visible and the hidden To be disappointed in religion means being disappointed in the visible, and to feel the necessity for finding the hidden and unknown part of religion

"To be disappointed in science does not mean losing interest in knowledge. It means being convinced that the usual scientific methods are not only useless but lead to the construction of absurd and self contradictory theories, and, having become convinced of this, to begin to search for others.

"To be disappointed in philosophy means being convinced that ordinary philosophy is merely - as it is said in the Russian proverb - pouring from one empty vessel into another, and that people do not even know what philosophy means although true philosophy also can and should exist

"To be disappointed in occultism does not mean losing faith in the miraculous, it is merely being convinced that ordinary, accessible, and even advertised occultism, under whatever name it may pass, is simply charlatanism and self deception and that, although somewhere something does exist, everything that man knows or is able to learn in the ordinary way is not what he needs.b

"So that, no matter what he used to do before, no matter what used to interest him, if a man has arrived at this state of disappointment in ways that are possible and accessible, it is worth while speaking to him about our system and then he may come to the work

"But if he continues to think that he is able to find anything on his former way, or that he has not as yet tried all the ways, or that he can, by himself, find anything or do anything, it means that he is not ready.

"I do not mean that he must throw up everything he used to do before. This is entirely unnecessary On the contrary, it is often even better if he continues to do what he used to do. But he must realize that it is only a profession, or a habit, or a necessity In this case it is another matter, he will then be able not to 'identify.'

"There is only one thing incompatible with work and that is 'professional occultism,' in other words, professional charlatanism. All these spiritualists, healers, clairvoyants, and so on, or even people closely connected with them, are none of them any good to us. And you must always remember this and take care not to tell them much because everything they learn from you they might use for their own purposes, that is, to make fools of other people.

'There are still other categories which are no good but we will speak of them later. In the meantime remember one thing only: A man must be sufficiently disappointed in ordinary ways and he must at the same time think or be able to accept the idea that there may be something- somewhere. If you should speak to such a man, he might discern the flavor of truth in what you say no matter how clumsily you might speak. But if you should speak to a man who is convinced about something else, everything you say will sound absurd to him and he will never even listen to you seriously. It is not worth while wasting time on him.

"This system is for those who have already sought and have burned themselves. Those who have not sought and who are not seeking do not need it. And those who have not yet burned themselves do not need it either."

"But this is not what people begin with," said one of our company. "They ask: Do we admit the existence of the ether? Or how do we look on evolution? Or why do we not believe in progress? Or why do we not think that people can and should organize life on the basis of justice and the common good? And things of this sort."

"All questions are good," said G., "and you can begin from any question if only it is sincere. You understand that what I mean is that this very question about ether or about progress or about the common good could be asked by a man simply in order to say something, or to repeat what someone else has said or what he has read in some book, and on the other hand he could ask it because this is the question with which he aches. If it is an aching question for him you can give him an answer and you can bring him to the system through any question whatever. But it is necessary for the question to be an aching one."

Our talks about people who could be interested in the system and able to work, involuntarily led us towards a valuation of our friends from an entirely new point of view. In this respect we all experienced bitter disappointment. Even before G. had formally requested us to speak of the system to our friends we had of course all tried in one way or another to talk about it at any rate with those of them whom we met most often. And in most cases our enthusiasm in regard to the ideas of the system met with a very cold reception. They did not understand us; the ideas which seemed to us new and original seemed to our friends to be old and tedious, leading nowhere, and even repellent. This astonished us more than anything else.

We were amazed that people with whom we had felt an inner intimacy, with whom in former times we had been able to talk about all questions that worried us, and in whom we had found a response, could fail to see what we saw and above all that they could see something quite opposite.

I have to say that, in regard to my own personal experience, it gave me a very strange even painful impression. I speak of the absolute impossibility of making people understand us. We are of course accustomed to this in ordinary life, in the realm of ordinary questions, and we know that people who are hostile to us at heart or narrow-minded or incapable of thought can misunderstand us, twist and distort anything we say, can ascribe to us thoughts we never had, words which we never uttered, and so on. But now when we saw that all this was being done by those whom we used to regard as our kind of people, with whom we used to spend very much of our time, and who formerly had seem to us to understand us better than anyone else, it produced on us a discouraging impression.

Such cases of course constituted the exceptions; most of our friends were merely indifferent, and all our attempts to infect them with our interest in G.'s system led to nothing. But sometimes they got a very curious impression of us. I do not remember now who was the first to notice that our friends found we had begun to change for the worse. They found us less interesting than we had been before; they told us we were becoming colorless, as though we were fading, were losing our former spontaneity, our former responsiveness to everything, that we were becoming "machines," were ceasing to think originally, were ceasing to feel, that we were merely repeating like parrots what we heard from G.

G. laughed a great deal when we told him about this.

"Wait, there is worse to come," he said. "Do you understand what this really means? It means that you have stopped lying; at any rate you don't lie so well, that is, you can no longer lie in so interesting a way as before.

He is an interesting man who lies well. But you are already ashamed of lying. You are now able to acknowledge to yourselves sometimes that there is something you do not know or do not understand, and you cannot talk as if you knew all about everything. It means of course that you have become less interesting, less original, and less, as they say, responsive.

So now you are really able to see what sort of people your friends are. And on their part they are sorry for you. And in their own way they are right. You have already begun to die."

He emphasized this word. "It is a long way yet to complete death but still a certain amount of silliness is going out of you. You can no longer deceive yourselves as sincerely as you did before. You have now got the taste of truth."
As for self-importance, this factor is exemplified in the following, and I have put in bold the primary issue:

Gurdjieff said:
Only two people dropped off who, exactly as though through some kind of magic as it seemed to us, suddenly ceased to understand anything and saw in everything that G. said misunderstanding on his part, and, on the part of the rest, a lack of, sympathy and feeling.

This attitude, at first mistrustful and suspicious and then openly hostile to almost all of us, coming from nobody knew where and full of strange and quite unexpected accusations, astonished us very much.

"We made everything a secret"; we failed to tell them what G. had spoken of in their absence. We told tales about them to G., trying to make him distrust them. We recounted to him all talks with them, leading him constantly into error by distorting all the facts and striving to present everything in a false light. We had given G. wrong impressions about them, making him see everything far from as it was.

At the same time G. himself had "completely changed," had become altogether different from what he used to be before, had become harsh, requiring, had lost all feeling and all interest for individual people, had ceased to demand the truth from people; that he preferred to have round him people such as were afraid to tell him the truth, who were hypocrites, who threw flowers at one another and at the same time spied on the others.

We were amazed at all these and similar talks. They brought with them immediately a kind of entirely new atmosphere which up to this time we had not had. And it was particularly strange because precisely at this time most of us were in a very emotional state and were particularly well disposed towards these two protesting members of our group.

We tried many times to talk to G. about them. He laughed very much when we told him that in their opinion we always gave him "wrong impressions" of them.

"How they value the work," he said, "and what a miserable idiot I am from their point of view; how easily I am deceived! You see that they have ceased to understand the most important thing. In the work the teacher of the work cannot be deceived. This is a law which proceeds from what has been said about knowledge and being. I may deceive you if I want to. But you cannot deceive me. If it were otherwise you would not learn from me and I would have to learn from you."

"How must we speak to them and how can we help them to come back to the group?" some of us asked G.

"Not only can you do nothing," G. said to them, "but you ought not to try because by such attempts you will destroy the last chance they have of understanding and seeing themselves. It is always very difficult to come back. And it must be an absolutely voluntary decision without any sort of persuasion or constraint.

"You should understand that everything you have heard about me and yourselves are attempts at self-justification, endeavors to blame others in order to feel that they are in the right. It means more and more lying. It must be destroyed and it can only be destroyed through suffering. If it was difficult for them to see themselves before, it will be ten times more difficult now."

"How could this have happened?" others asked him. "Why did their attitude towards all of us and towards you change so abruptly and unexpectedly?"

"It is the first case for you," said G., "and therefore it appears strange to you, but later on you will see that it happens very often and you will see that it always takes place in the same way. The principal reason for it is that it is impossible to sit between two stools. And people usually think that they can sit between two stools, that is, that they can acquire the new and preserve the old; they do not think this consciously of course but it comes to the same thing.

"And what is it that they most of all desire to preserve? First the right to have their own valuation of ideas and of people, that is, that which is more harmful for them than anything else. They are fools and they already know it, that is to say, they realized it at one time. For this reason they came to learn. But they forget all about this the next moment; they are already bringing into the work their own paltry and subjective attitude; they begin to pass judgment on me and on everyone else as though they were able to pass judgment on anything. And this is immediately reflected in their attitude towards the ideas and towards what I say.

"Already 'they accept one thing' and 'they do not accept another thing'; with one thing they agree, with another they disagree; they trust me in one thing, in another thing they do not trust me.

"And the most amusing part is that they imagine they are able 'to work' under such conditions, that is, without trusting me in everything and without accepting everything. In actual fact this is absolutely impossible. By not accepting something or mistrusting something they immediately invent something of their own in its place. 'Gagging' begins - new theories and new explanations which have nothing in common either with the work or with what I have said. Then they begin to find faults and inaccuracies in everything that I say or do and in everything that others say or do. From this moment I now begin to speak of things about which I have no knowledge and even of things of which I have no conception, but which they know and understand much better than I do; all the other members of the group are fools, idiots.

"And so on, and so on, like a barrel organ. When a man says something on these lines I already know all he will say later on. And you also will know by the consequences. And it is amusing that people can see this in relation to others. But when they themselves do crazy things they at once cease to see it in relation to themselves. This is a law. It is difficult to climb the hill but very easy to slide down it. They even feel no embarrassment in talking in such a manner either with me or with other people. And chiefly they think that this can be combined with some kind of 'work.' They do not even want to understand that when a man reaches this notch his little song has been sung....

"This is an exact example of how people do the very worst thing they possibly can for themselves when they depart from what is good in them."
 
j0da said:
Also, the pain was felt in between ribs muscles. Again, there was no ordinary cause for this type of discomfort and because of that I considered that it's some kind of psychosomatic reaction to "something". In my opinion seeing a doctor in such cases is meaningless, for they usually prescribe some damn pills which do one no good.
Ok, thanks - your more precise description has eased my mind somewhat.

When you said:
j0da said:
I woke up in the morning with terrible pain in the chest, in the heart area. It felt like something very heavy fell down on my chest and was sitting there. I couldn't move without experiencing pain, so I just stayed in one position, keeped being calm and breathed.
I felt bit worried, especially since you mentioned in other threads that you were fairly young! Anyway, this is a bit of a tangent, so I'll leave it at that. :)
 
Hi Saman,

They were just some notions based on some concepts that the C's had explained in the sessions and nothing more or nothing less.
"...for perhaps saying too much in the Organic Portal thread..."

I was very surprised of what happened just when I finished the post in question because there isn't anything really new or significant within the context of that post in my opinion...
Interesting... You start with the past tense and then shift into the present. You say you were surprised because of something to do with what you wrote at the time ("for perhaps saying too much"?), but then it's as if another 'I' comes in which does acknowledge that there was nothing new or significant there. You must have ascribed some importance to your post to make the association and interpretation of "attack" in the first place?

You also said: "It seems the MCS has already made a sudden and unexpected attack upon me..." What did you mean "already made" and why did you then seem to contradict yourself and say it was "unexpected"?
 
Saman said:
Moreover, as far as having an emotional attachment to the speculations about 4D and so forth in the Organic Portal thread due to the 'inner dog's' self importance, I don't see this to be the case within because I was not seeking emotionally feel-good chemical confirmation for perhaps my own "sacred cows" about 4D reality being the way that I imagine it to be due to some speculations and intuitions, which may be false anyways since as you have stated, we won't really "get it" until we graduate to 4D, whenever that may be, or perhaps may not be since it is "open". They were just some notions based on some concepts that the C's had explained in the sessions and nothing more or nothing less. I was very surprised of what happened just when I finished the post in question because there isn't anything really new or significant within the context of that post in my opinion since most of what was stated in that post has been already mentioned in CassChat before in the 'past' by different individuals but I currently don't think it was all organized in one post as far as I know, which however, doesn't make it any special feat in itself anyways.
Interesting assessment.

I often find external events in our immediate environment to reveal hidden energetic dynamics in our lives. It often helps to look at these events symbolically, similar to how we view dreams, since external life has a lot in common with dreams. In waking life, our bodies are participating in mobile fashion, and interdimensional variables in dreams are supplanted with the materially "real" in the waking state.

There are, furthermore, energetic connections between people, and there are connections between people and interdimensional variables and influences. All of these are modulated by ouru psychic state, which opens and closes doors regarding these connections.

Saman, your mother experienced stress on her spine. The synchronicity between that spasm (where the build-up of stress could not be sustained), and your posting of the forum was so profound that you could not help but notice it, and associate a cause/effect relationship between the two events.

The thing is that spinal stress does not generate spasm without prior build-up. If the energy pattern of you mother's spinal stress was associated with your recent postings, then you need to understand the energy associated with those postings in a much clearer fashion. I decided to take a look at those postings again, and could not help but notice a pattern of enthusiasm building with each one.

You claim:

...there isn't anything really new or significant within the context of that post in my opinion since most of what was stated in that post has been already mentioned in CassChat before in the 'past' by different individuals but I currently don't think it was all organized in one post as far as I know, which however, doesn't make it any special feat in itself anyways...
This may be objectively true, but from what I observed you seemed to be "on a roll", and picking up momentum the more you posted. Although the information may not be new, you did seem to think it important to organize it as if it was going to lead you to something. You were "into" it, that much was obvious, and getting more into it all the time.

The enthusiastic energy of being into something is a "high", and results from the release of neurotransmitters and hormones that sustain it. This energy is useful because it keeps us going at a task, keeps us focused, and keeps our actions constructive. However, because it IS a chemical high at its roots, it CAN be addictive.

When this happens, our motives subtly shift from our creative exploration to the desire to keep ourselves "on a roll". Addiction to what we believe is creative enthusiasm is a manifestation of self-importance, because the truth becomes a means to keep ourselves going, even if we tell ourselves we are onto something.

So your claim that what you wrote was nothing special contradicts the apparent intensity with which you tackled a topic whose practical significance for the group seemed to be secondary to extended self-satisfying speculation.

Your abrupt response to Tschai was, furthermore, indicative of someone who did not want to be bothered with "trifles", and was a further indication that you placed speculation above the here and now aspects of the work, and your own "thing" above the needs of others. So you definitely were more than likely attached to your speculations, and more than likely started getting deeper into self-importance, and expressing rather than communicating.

At the same time, you are obviously at a level where you could have easily intuited this. I believe you did intuit the possibility, and pushed it away because of positive and negative reinforcement. Positive, because it felt good to express yourself as you were, and negative to avoid the dissonance of addressing the issue.

Go back, read your posts, and remember how you felt while writing them. Did you have a strong sense of purpose, of scholarship, of doing something that needed to be done? If not, I think you would have been more open to the signals coming from others.

Instead, you were bent on keeping the ball rolling. And the energy of the lesson presented itself with every post I think, and you brushed it by. And each time you brushed it by, your mother (who may have sensed your enthusiastic energy as a good thing- a thought that may have been inspired by forces that benefit from self-importance in seekers) accomodated you. She absorbed the energy of the lesson so it would not "pressure" you with doubt. Instead it pressured her.

And the pressure was strong because the farther along into knowing we are, the stronger the consequences of resisting true knowing, and hence the more response-able we are for our knowing. I believe each post increased self-importance, and constituted a denial of the true lesson placing more pressure on your mother's spine, until it gave.

The point is that if you keep resisting the lesson, you will feel dissonance because there is apparently nowhere to push it (unless your mother absorbs it in other ways), and knowing and self-importance cannot easily exist in the same mental space. It pays to observe this dissonance, because its deeper cause, the cause that pushed away the first lesson of empathic discontinuity is actually the more profound lesson, the one whose learning will assist even more than the first.

I believe the cause is a judgment against self-importance, which is also indicative of self-importance. You identify self-importance not as your own (refusing responsiblity even for its possibility) but your "inner dog's". Of course you did not invent this term, and it may be a decent analogy in a certain context, but I do think you are looking at this inner dog, and hence yourself, in self-depreciating terms (which is a reciprocal effect of placing importance on "non-dog" aspects, instead of the true teacher, the "dog").

I think you consider self-importance as beneath you. If you are dissociated in your perception from your "inner dog", then of course you may not percieve what is going on with it/you. And you may judge yourself harshly for such a "fall", which is not a fall, but just being 3D human and learning from it.

We do not punish ourselves for being human, and there is no need to "confess" to anyone. Simple honesty with self and understanding of the dynamic will greatly assist to rebalance the energies, and activate your capacity to observe the emergence of similar patterns.

When a disruption in empathic sense is reflexive, and when we seek to cover the reflex with speculative noise, there is more often than not avoidance of dissonance that is out of proportion to the original disruption. It pays to examine this, because your environment is indicating it should be examined. At the same time, there are forces that do not want you to examine the situation and increase learning.

I think this is a valuable lesson for everyone. Attacks do not just come from outside, but from within as well, and these are the most difficult to address, because it is easy to confuse self-assessment (which implies correction) with self-judgment (which implies condemnation).

Since we are in an STS reality, and we are OP-compatible to an extent, we are open to inner attacks through our own conditionings, and what these attacks want is to make us avoid confronting dissonance, and hence avoid learning.

That said, I want to add that since you are sincere in your quest for truth, you will obviously not resolve this contradiction by becoming more STS. That means that dissonance can only increase in your life, if not within then through external events that will become your avenues of potential learning. Personally, I prefer internal avenues as the discomfort is subjective, and does not involve others.

As I am expressing my view on this matter, the decision and final assessment is always yours, of course. If you are still adamant that your self-importance is a non-issue, and that there was no discontinuity in your ability to self-reflect, then I have nothing more to say about this.
 
EsoQuest said:
Your abrupt response to Tschai was, furthermore, indicative of someone who did not want to be bothered with "trifles", and was a further indication that you placed speculation above the here and now aspects of the work, and your own "thing" above the needs of others. So you definitely were more than likely attached to your speculations, and more than likely started getting deeper into self-importance, and expressing rather than communicating.
EsoQuest, I think you may be right in this observation. One of the most important aspects of the work here is interaction with others. Our interactions with others seems to be where some of the most important lessons are learned. Your post in the OP thread seems to have also tried to point this out in a general way.

EsoQuest said:
Although I greatly value the theoretical viewpoints presented here, I still believe the true value of discussions such as these lie in the practical lessons that often pop up as dramatizations of the theory presented. Sometimes, these are blatantly obvious and the lesson is recognized. That is usually when someone with the intent to manipulate comes forward. The nature of the common "foe" makes the lesson more acceptable and easily recognizable, although that is not always the case.

Sometimes there is no such "outsider", and the lesson comes from within the apparent sincerity of the discussion. These dramatizations manifest as misunderstandings, sometimes minor, sometimes resulting in a member being disillusioned with the discussion.

I think one single practical example is worth a thousand pages of elaborated theory, quotes and analytical details (although I do not deny that they have their place). We may say all we want regarding STO practice, but what does it mean in the here and now (where it really counts as far as we are concerned)?

What is the use of knowing the ins and outs of STS vs. STO dynamics if we fail to practice that knowledge in the simple arenas of learning discussions such as this provide?

More to the point, the dramatization that led to Tschai feeling he needs to withdraw from participation, was a challenge in a way. The challenge involved the practice of empathy. This empathy is not a mushy sentimentality, but a form of applied knowledge that transcends information and theory, and encompasses more than intellectual procedure. It involves understanding others.

The whole point of the discussions around psychopathy, organic portals and STS vs. STO behavior, as I see it, revolves around learning to understand others, and act according to that understanding. Without such understanding seekers are vulnerable to psychopathic manipulators, can try to assist people (OP's) who neither want nor need assistance, and/or act defensively and misunderstand the intentions of those who are sincere seekers like them. Without such understanding, we cannot help others even if they clearly ask.

I see the learning toward understanding others, therefore, a basic application of the knowledge that protects.

Since we are not all at the same stage, some are more knowledgeable and hence more capable of applying understanding and empathy regarding their co-participants. Those more knowledgeable are clearly more response-able, or else their knowledge is just regurgitated information, which I really do not believe protects any sincere seeker.

I see it as a natural outcome of maintaining an objective position regarding the postings of others. That's because the posting is much more than raw informational content. It reflects the mind of the one posting, and a real objective reading can gauge the patterns of that mind, and hence respond accordingly so communication can be as constructive as possible. If truly desiring to be STO, I think we must communicate for others and not simply express for ourselves. And the benefit of other forum members must come first in the minds of members who have the advantage of more knowledge than they.

The one thing that can undermine this objective attitude geared to serving others in the network is self-importance, which can be very subtle yet effective in warping a person's view of another even for a short time. The primary symptom of self-importance is loss of patience with another, when we clearly know that other is not familiar with the same concepts in the same way.

Self-importance clouds the mind, and an individual can forget what it was like to be less informed than they are now. Scholars often lack patience because they do not care about helping others. They only want to analyze text. Scholars may be knowledgeable, but this knowledge does not protect because it is not placed in service to others.

Scholars often brush off the less informed, because they just want to get on with elaborating on theory. And if that theory is meant to teach service to others, why would one neglect its application instead of embracing any and every opportunity that presents itself for it? I think because self-importance can divorce theory from practice.

So I believe that paying attention and learning from the dynamics of the discussion is as and even more important than elaborating on the fine points of the topic itself, because these dynamics often provide opportunities to apply that knowledge, which in this case is service to others.

And if, as human beings, we miss the opportunity we can still backtrack and learn from the results by putting ourselves in the position of the other(s) involved and exercising empathy.

I speak generally here, because I want to emphasize the lesson and not the people. We are all human and all of us can easily end up at the butt end of a dramatized lesson. Only the self-important see shame in this. And even self-importance is not a cause for shame, but an opportunity for self-observation and further learning.

Casting stones at human qualities all of us possess to one degree or another is simply another sign of self-importance, and when we know this we can exercise empathy and understand the matter objectively. Then self-importance loses its power and we are far better off at the end of the lesson than after analyzing sheets and sheets of theoretical material.
I have been reticent in commenting on the interaction between Saman and Tschai. I prepared a couple of posts during that interaction but did not click the button to finalize the post.

I think Saman missed a big lesson in that interaction and to me it looked as if it was just glossed over and I wonder why?

Saman said:
If you're really interested, which it seems you are not, my suggestion to you is [to] recheck the very same excerpts that you have twisted in your previous post to state that "The C's have explained we simply cannot be STO in 3rd Density-period" in order to refresh your memory, and then to look for the excerpt in question about the C's stating "discover".
The above post by Saman in response to Tschai I think holds a very important lesson for Saman and I think it can't be glossed over with something as simple as "pedagogical approach" or a haughty approach -

Saman said:
Hi Laura, Tschai, All. Due to your feedback, I will no longer overly use this stric[t] pedagogical approach in order to not potentially communicate in a manner that could seem offputting and lofty to other individuals. I apologize Tschai for apparently offending you with this manner of approach.
I think Saman was actually doing darned near the exact same to Tschai that he himself thought he saw lacking in Tschai.

Saman said:
If you're really interested, which it seems you are not,
The above seemed to me to be a very big assumption (lacking data). And isn't this part of Saman's premise that he thinks Tschai was lacking (not doing the work / making the effort / getting the data)

The above was very much lacking in external consideration for others. This in itself is a type of self-importance, a lack of seeing self and putting self above others. Sometimes context may make such an approach appropriate, when the person you are addressing has shown a repeated pattern of disregard to make an effort or a repeated pattern of disruption, etc. But to me this did not seem the case in this situation.

Saman said:
my suggestion to you is [to] recheck the very same excerpts that you have twisted in your previous post
"you have twisted" shows a great lack of consideration for others in this context.

"you have twisted" seemed to be an accusation, unfounded, with a lack of data on Saman's part and a "lack of data", failure to do the work seemed to be part of the point Saman was seeing in Tschai.

Did Saman see perhaps that he was doing nearly the same thing that he thought he was seeing in Tschai?? Not making the effort to get the full information on Tschai's informational background on the subjects.

Saman said:
in order to refresh your memory, and then to look for the excerpt in question about the C's stating "discover".
The above almost sounds cryptic like Saman is trying to be the C's and give Tschai a clue. When I read it, the first thought I had was that Saman is trying to emulate the C's style as if he is the teacher (but a teacher above others).

I stated in another post that the word "discover" occurs in over 160 of about 280 sessions. I was wondering if Saman was really telling Tschai to go re-read 160+ sessions and then to try and figure out which of those 160 sessions that "discover" occurred in was the right one.

Was it an assumption on Saman's part that Tschai even had access to the 280 or sessions?

Was it an assumption on Saman's part that Tschai, if Tschai even had the 280 or so sessions, that Tschai had some kind of tool to search them and find that 1 in 160 sessions that was the right one?

Was there a geat lack of external consideration on Saman's part, forgetting that this is pretty much an open forum, with participants at all different levels of what materials they have access to and what materials they have thus far read, and all different levels of understanding on those materials? And perhaps even that maybe Saman doesn't quite have it right?

I may be off the mark here to some degree, but I think Saman was offered a great lesson in the interaction spoken of with Tschai. And I think Saman summed it up with a basic response of [paraphrase / how I read it] "I apologize for being so haughty in my approach." And then Saman poured himself into examination of what 4D environments and STO / STS relationships may or may not be, all the time missing something very invaluable.
 
christx11 said:
I have been reticent in commenting on the interaction between Saman and Tschai. I prepared a couple of posts during that interaction but did not click the button to finalize the post.
Reticence is not only a healthy response, indicating consideration of others, but also an objective one. Before questioning the motives of any member, we should think it over not once but many times. I did not post what I did without really thinking about it, and wanted to present my view generally to avoid getting more specific.

And this is not about finger pointing, but seriously pointing out valuable lessons. This could happen to anyone, and that is an important understanding. When we are free of self-importance, such lapses are actually welcomed in a sense because they offer opportunity, not only for the participants in these dramas but for everyone in the process of learning.

Saman actually demonstrated that working in the here and now is more important than trying to figure out how many angels dance on the head of a pin, as Laura mentioned, and that the latter direction can actually distract from the true work, which involves getting one's hands dirty.

So when self-importance is set aside, and judgment is set aside, we become far more eager to learn and embrace every opportunity. It is when opportunity is not embraced that things start getting out of hand.

Anyway, this bothered me because I remembered that tschai expressed that he was former military who was working diligently on former aggressive tendencies (which is why the man kept apologizing in his posts), and he also suffered from depression, which made dealing with the ups and downs of posting far more difficult.

And from his end he got a response that seriously challenged his work on himself, and such challenges happen in the work. What's done is done and I hope he works through it. And to me it shows that understanding others posting on the forum and their psychological make up is an exercise in empathy, and far more useful than elaborating on hypothetical situations.
 
christx11 said:
Saman said:
in order to refresh your memory, and then to look for the excerpt in question about the C's stating "discover".
The above almost sounds cryptic like Saman is trying to be the C's and give Tschai a clue. When I read it, the first thought I had was that Saman is trying to emulate the C's style as if he is the teacher (but a teacher above others).

I stated in another post that the word "discover" occurs in over 160 of about 280 sessions. I was wondering if Saman was really telling Tschai to go re-read 160+ sessions and then to try and figure out which of those 160 sessions that "discover" occurred in was the right one.

Was it an assumption on Saman's part that Tschai even had access to the 280 or sessions?
Hi Don, All. Did you read this message prior to the the one above regarding "discover"?

"Hi. I just posted something recently in regards to these thoughts above. Moreover, the C's have not explained we simply cannot be STO in 3rd Density period. If you recheck the sessions in regards to 3D STO, they said "discover". "

A simple search on the sessions for "3rd Desnity STO" would had revealed the location of the sessions in regards to "recheck the sessions in regards to 3D STO, they said "discover". "

Just a thought. I will reread and carefully consider all reflections over again later since, I am short on time since I have to do several things today for my mother before going to work. Bye for now.
 
christx11 said:
Saman said:
in order to refresh your memory, and then to look for the excerpt in question about the C's stating "discover".
The above almost sounds cryptic like Saman is trying to be the C's and give Tschai a clue. When I read it, the first thought I had was that Saman is trying to emulate the C's style as if he is the teacher (but a teacher above others).

I stated in another post that the word "discover" occurs in over 160 of about 280 sessions. I was wondering if Saman was really telling Tschai to go re-read 160+ sessions and then to try and figure out which of those 160 sessions that "discover" occurred in was the right one.

Was it an assumption on Saman's part that Tschai even had access to the 280 or sessions?
Hi Don, All. Did you read this message prior to the the one above regarding "discover"?

Don Here: Yes. I read the thread mentioned and the pages with the interaction in question a few times.

"Hi. I just posted something recently in regards to these thoughts above. Moreover, the C's have not explained we simply cannot be STO in 3rd Density period. If you recheck the sessions in regards to 3D STO, they said "discover". "

Don Here: Yes this was pid=8102

A simple search on the sessions for "3rd Desnity STO" would had revealed the location of the sessions in regards to "recheck the sessions in regards to 3D STO, they said "discover". "

Don Here: Yes, but it appeared to me that you were making assumptions that Tschai had a compendium of the sessions and if so that Tschai had a tool to easily find what you were talking about, which maybe Tschai did have. But I could not determine that from the interaction, even when Tschai asked "which session was that".

I also was not able to get out of the interaction that your suggestion was to do a simple search on the explicit terms "3rd Density STO", as it was unique and would have narrowed down the search. In fact I commented in the same thread pid=8212 where I found the session you were talking about by searching the term you put in quotes for emphasis "discover". That required looking through over 160 different sessions. I think if you look back in that thread, other users were also not sure what session you were referring to -
pid=8120 and no one in the following posts seemed to be able to find the reference. And in pid=8126 it does sound like you are saying that "discover" is the clue once again -

Saman From viewtopic.php?pid=8126#p8126 said:
The above suggestion to discover the excerpt in question, which was a clue in [itself], was seemingly ignored
Perhaps it is not a big deal. But several people I think are and were trying to say the same thing to you in varied gentle ways and I hold by my observation that it appears to me that external consideration on your part was at the crux of problem that arose in the interaction between yourself and Tschai. I do not know if there is a history of interaction between yourself and Tschai from other places on the forum or from anywhere else and that may also be a factor that I am not aware of. It is just on the face of it, in that interaction, I think others saw a lesson which they themselves picked up (about external consideration and assumption - from my perspective) but I think the one who was actually involved in it (yourself) missed it.

Then again my reading instrument may lack other information on the context of the situation that transpired (or it is just wacked) and I do leave that open as a possibility.


Just a thought. I will reread and carefully consider all reflections over again later since, I am short on time since I have to do several things today for my mother before going to work. Bye for now.
 
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