Are Hindu Gods same as 4D STS Lizzies or Orions?

chrismcdude

Padawan Learner
Hello Laura and team,

My sincere thanks to you for all the transcripts published by the group - more than 360 and counting. I have been regularly going through the previous transcripts over the years (I have already read the Wave series, High Strangeness, SHOTW Vol 1 and 2 etc). I would like to humbly request the group to ask the following question to the Cs, if possible, which has been disturbing me for a long time and has immense implications for at least a billion people around the world.

First, some context -
In the transcripts, it has been mentioned that 4D STS eat vegetarians and fatty children and that most of them are Indian. Given the population size of India and teachings in many Hindu scriptures - related to vegetarianism, bhakti worship and fire sacrifices (yajnas) in the Vedas (sometimes involving even animals), tantric practices, rituals etc, and the massive amount of suffering the country has gone through in the last three centuries, I think India is probably one of the best "cattle" feeding stock around the world for the 4D STS.

It was also mentioned in the transcripts that Angkor Wat was built directly by the Lizzies for themselves and their worshippers amongst humans -

22 Oct 1994

Q: (L) Who built the city of Angkor Wat?

A: That was built by the Lizard Beings themselves. Built approximately 3108 years ago.

Q: (L) Who built the city of Mohenjo Daro?

A: That also was built by the Lizard Beings directly.

Q: (L) Did they live in these cities?

A: No, as stated before, they did not live there, they visited or occupied on a temporary basis, but did not live there.

Q: (L) Who did they build the cities for?

A: They built the cities for themselves and their worshippers amongst humans.
Historically, Angkor Wat is supposed to have been founded around 12th century AD and not 3000 years ago as Cs say. But the interesting features of the massive stone cut temple at Angkor Wat are that it was dedicated to the god Vishnu (human like appearance with multiple hands) who rests on a celestial multi-hooded serpent Naga.


The above relief depicts the moment when the two sides are churning the ocean of milk. In the detail above you can see that the gods and demons are playing a sort of tug-of-war with the Naga or serpent king as their divine rope. The Naga is being spun on Mt. Mandara represented by Vishnu (in the center). Several things happen while the churning of milk takes place. One event is that the foam from the churning produces apsaras or celestial maidens who are carved in relief throughout Angkor Wat (we see them here on either side of Vishnu, above the gods and demons). Once the elixir is released, Indra (the Vedic god who is considered the king of all the gods) is seen descending from heaven to catch it and save the world from the destruction of the demons.
Now the questions -
  • Is the depiction of Vishnu a reference of 4D STS Orions (who resemble large humanoids) and their slaves Lizzies (serpent)?
  • Is this story some form of corrupted version of the events that supposedly took place when good vs evil 4D beings battled over the Earth and the 4D STS won?
  • Are the gods in the Hindu pantheon depicting 4D STS Orions and other types of aliens in Orion Union?
  • With all the worship in the Bhakti movement and rituals and dietary habits of Hindus, I'm wondering if the Hindu scriptures and are a work of 4D STS?
  • Is mantra chanting and bhakti/Bhagvad Gita a real medium for spiritual growth or does it just feed the 4D STS?

It is disgusting to think that such a successful case of mind programming may have been achieved for thousands of years. Can this inquiry be pursued with the Cs in any session as it has not yet been dealt with in detail so far? The answers have relevance for more than a billion practicing Hindus.
 

chrismcdude

Padawan Learner
Edit :

Given the population size of India and teachings in many Hindu scriptures - related to
  • vegetarianism,
  • caste system (supposedly created from the four limbs of Creator God Brahma - sounds like genetic engineering of humans from Orion DNA), bhakti/devotional worship/dance and fire sacrifices (yajnas) in the Vedas (sometimes involving even animals),
  • tantric practices (may involve sex sometimes or meditating in a cremation ground),
  • daily rituals and those during festivals and other important events in one's life etc, and
  • the massive amount of suffering the country has gone through in the last three centuries,
  • and so on

I think India is probably one of the best "cattle" feeding stock around the world for the 4D STS.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Geeze, after reading your presentation, don't you think the answer is obvious?

I'd be interested to hear what you have to say after reading about Zoroastrianism and especially, Settegast's book "When Zarathustra Spoke".
 

marek760

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
In the book by the Polish author: Paweł Hulka - "Twórca religii Iranu Zaratustra i jego nauka" (Creator of Iranian religion Zaratustra and his teaching), writes:

"So whether this people split up as a result of a religious separationt, or whether the religious separation has resulted in a split. Persians in ahuras worshipped still good spirits, in daevas seeing evil spirits, while Hindu oppositely called good spirits daevas, while ahuras considered to be hostile spirits"

Session 14 August 2016

A: The Indian Vedas will give clues.

Q: (L) Maybe he wasn't wrong when he said that the daevas were demons. Were the daevas like STS beings?

A: Close

Q: (L) Were they like 4th density STS?

A: Yes
 

sid

Jedi
Hi chrismcdude

Can I ask how much you know about Indian history and the mythological stories of Mahabharata and Ramayana? The mind programming done on Hindus is not just due to chantings and gods but there are other factors as well.

I can try and put an answer together for you if could advise if your line of enquiry is to validate the existence of Vishnu or reasons behind how India is the best feeding ground for the STS?
 
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Chrismcdude, you make a long list of generalizations. On this forum, you often see people reading passages from the transcripts and then extrapolating their own theories based on that. This makes you prone to what could be called "pattern recognition gone amok", as you try to wildly tie many different things together, even though you likely don't have a precise idea of all of the concepts and practices you mentioned. For example, what is "Hinduism" or the "Hindu pantheon", except for a convenient umbrella term given by Westerners/Muslims to a myriad of practices associated with an area now known as South Asia? If there is one thing I've learned about India through my studies there, it is that for anything you propose about it you can also find its opposite there. For example, Bhakti cannot easily be reduced to blind worship alone. If you understand the historical and social circumstances of Tamil Nadu in Southern India, where it arose about 1400 years ago through the Nayanars and Alwars, you can see how it can also be interpreted to mirror the charismatic reactionary mystic movements you find in many religions around the world. Their mystics sought a more direct religious experience and wanted to move beyond empty temple ritual and literal interpretation of scriptures that dominated the Brahmin elite(compare with figures such as Teresa of Avila, Meister Eckhart or the Hesychast movement as opposed to the Christian church). There was also an attempt to break out of the varna/caste restrictions imposed on non-brahmins, which might partly explain the success of Tantric and Muslim movements in India. Was there meddling in human affairs by 4D STS? Most likely, but the same holds true for every other region and religion.
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I haven't yet read the book "When Zarathustra Spoke" though I have the book. It is next to read.

Some thoughts on the subject and some of the text may be repetition.

The extreme poverty is surely a big problem due to British imperialism that is fueled at the expense of Indian wealth ( its GDP was 24% at the beginning of the British rule and ended up with 4%). C's did say, Indian children are more used for their experimentation. Extreme poverty and endemic corruption and not so efficient police system feeds into it. It looks tome, when we see any country, countries go up and down for whatever natural cycle is.

Given that this planet is 4D STS garden until now, each place has its own type crop for 4D STS and Indian history seems to have lot of religious character through out history. As per C's Hindu Gods are 4D STS.

But, there are variations. some Gods are old and some new.

Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma are representations of old Veda's and Veda's seems to give too much importance to Fire, Wind, Indra etc. But, Velokovisky who analyzed world religions for his work in Worlds in collision mentioned that meaning of the words Vishnu means Venus and Shiva means Jupiter. If we add C's description of Venus's fiery rotations in the solar system before settling in the current orbit, planet inhabitants have seen all sorts of electrical phenomenon, which they thought Gods. Probably Veda'started "religious" aspect of the electrical phenomenon. There could be other symbolic mechanism too. for thousands years, there is lot of trade connections between India ( most south India) and countries like Vietnam, Thailand etc.


Around 600 BC, in reaction to Brahmin priest excesses, Buddhism an Jainism were born and Buddhism came to its height when Emperor Ashoka of Chandragupta dynasty adopted Buddhism around 250 BC. After this dynasty, the rulers are mostly Hindu kings, who transformed the entire religion to Hinduism. At that time, Brahmin priests are the only one knows Sanskrit. To make religion more adoptable, they converted texts to local languages and you can expect all sorts of changes according to local needs. I read book on critical study on Gita - Bhagavad Gita A Critical Study which analyzes the text , styles etc and concludes that it is conglomeration of many texts that were written under different contexts and regions.

Hindu religion tend to be absorb lot of gods of other religions and make them incarnation of Vishnu. I have seen representations of Buddha, in the 'incarnation' list. In some cases, Christ is also added to the list. Given that it is ruled by Muslims for 500+ years, Christians for 150 years( depending on the measure), lot of absorption happened. This suits well for MK Gandhi who united the people against British. Hinduism being one of the oldest surviving major religion, we can expect all sorts of reinventions to continue.
1994-10-20
Q: Who was the Queen of Sheba?

A: Fictional.

Q: Did a great queen come to visit King Solomon?

A: Alien influence.

Q: Who was Arjuna?

A: Same as Sheba.

Q: Who is Shiva?

A: Same.

Q: Rama?

A: Indian. High priest influenced by Confederation.
1995-08-12
Q: (L) My first question is: What is the source of the Vedas? The Hindu system of philosophy?
A: There is more than one source.
Q: (L) What is the general source, positive or...
A: A very vague question.
Q: (L) Was it a group of people that put them together over centuries, or was it channeled information, or...?
A: It came into being as a result of meditation.
Q: (L) And what race of people was responsible for this information?
A: Caucasian.
Q: (L) What period of time were the Vedas received.
A: Varying bits and pieces of information which later was organized into packages labeled as it is.
Q: (L) From what realm did this meditated information issue?
A: The realm of the subconscious mind.
Q: (L) Are any of the Vedas information that was given to man by extra-terrestrials?
A: Not as you would define it.
Q: (L) From what types of beings, or what level of density did this information issue from?
A: Third.
Q: (L) Can you give us anything more on that in a general sense?
A: If you ask.
Q: (L) What is the percentage of accuracy of the information given in the Vedas? Overall?
A: Accurate at what level?
Q: (L) Third Density.
A: Accurate to what extent and in what way?
Q: (L) Well, in a general sense, as a way of living one's life and perceiving the universe.
A: That's an extremely difficult question to answer as accuracy in determining such things as perceiving the universe and living one's life is entirely open to interpretation as anyone can resolve accuracy by relating to the parallel universe which is appropriate for the information given. And, as we have stated in the past, it is possible to create parallel universes through thought energy, and once they are created
naturally, they correspond naturally to the interpretation given for them.
Q: (L) Is there any benefit to be obtained through the use of mantras?
A: Especially when the mind says there is. Remember, most all power necessary for altering reality and physicality is contained within the belief center of the mind. This is something you will understand more closely when you reach 4th density reality where physicality is no longer a prison, but is instead, your home, for you to alter as you please. In your current state, you have the misinterpretation of believing that reality is finite and therein lies your difficulty with finite physical existence. We are surprised that you are still not able to completely grasp this concept.
It does sounds like mixture of electrical phenomenon, some influential priests, some inventions and some observations from Meditation etc. morphed over time.
 

chrismcdude

Padawan Learner
Geeze, after reading your presentation, don't you think the answer is obvious?

I'd be interested to hear what you have to say after reading about Zoroastrianism and especially, Settegast's book "When Zarathustra Spoke".
Thank you Laura for your reply. I'm not very familiar with Zoroastrinism. Will read this book as you have suggested and perhaps make another post again in this thread.


In the book by the Polish author: Paweł Hulka - "Twórca religii Iranu Zaratustra i jego nauka" (Creator of Iranian religion Zaratustra and his teaching), writes:

"So whether this people split up as a result of a religious separationt, or whether the religious separation has resulted in a split. Persians in ahuras worshipped still good spirits, in daevas seeing evil spirits, while Hindu oppositely called good spirits daevas, while ahuras considered to be hostile spirits"

Session 14 August 2016
I do find it extremely strange that Zarathustra's teachings and the Vedas are exactly opposite in their depiction of daevas and asuras as good/evil. Will have to read more books comparing the two texts - Vedas and the Avesta. Any recommendations?

Hi chrismcdude

Can I ask how much you know about Indian history and the mythological stories of Mahabharata and Ramayana? The mind programming done on Hindus is not just due to chantings and gods but there are other factors as well.

I can try and put an answer together for you if could advise if your line of enquiry is to validate the existence of Vishnu or reasons behind how India is the best feeding ground for the STS?
I am familiar with the stories in Mahabharata and Ramayana. My line of inquiry is regarding the real nature of Hindu gods/scriptures and also whether this has been greatly influenced by 4D STS and if any god entity in the Hindu scriptures depicting 4D STS Orions (who resemble large humanoids as mentioned in the transcripts) from the Vedas (like Indra/Surya/Agni/Varuna/Mitra...) to historically more recent historical texts (like Krishna/Rama/Vishnu/Shiva/Brahma). If it is true that this literature and set of beliefs and rituals is greatly influenced by 4D STS, then it seems that this programming has worked really well. Your thoughts on this are welcome as it will help me refine my thinking.


Chrismcdude, you make a long list of generalizations. On this forum, you often see people reading passages from the transcripts and then extrapolating their own theories based on that. This makes you prone to what could be called "pattern recognition gone amok", as you try to wildly tie many different things together, even though you likely don't have a precise idea of all of the concepts and practices you mentioned. For example, what is "Hinduism" or the "Hindu pantheon", except for a convenient umbrella term given by Westerners/Muslims to a myriad of practices associated with an area now known as South Asia? If there is one thing I've learned about India through my studies there, it is that for anything you propose about it you can also find its opposite there. For example, Bhakti cannot easily be reduced to blind worship alone. If you understand the historical and social circumstances of Tamil Nadu in Southern India, where it arose about 1400 years ago through the Nayanars and Alwars, you can see how it can also be interpreted to mirror the charismatic reactionary mystic movements you find in many religions around the world. Their mystics sought a more direct religious experience and wanted to move beyond empty temple ritual and literal interpretation of scriptures that dominated the Brahmin elite(compare with figures such as Teresa of Avila, Meister Eckhart or the Hesychast movement as opposed to the Christian church). There was also an attempt to break out of the varna/caste restrictions imposed on non-brahmins, which might partly explain the success of Tantric and Muslim movements in India. Was there meddling in human affairs by 4D STS? Most likely, but the same holds true for every other region and religion.
I understand the risk that my mind can try to find patterns from one or two statements in the transcripts where none exist. To be clear, I don't want to generalize broadly. I'm neither wanting to be derogatory or dismissive of the culture or the spiritual texts of the Indian culture entirely. "Hinduism" is not a term within the religion itself. And even the texts make up a massive body of literature which are sometimes very contradictory. Some texts like the Upanishads have deep questions and beautiful poetic passages as well. Same with the epics Mahabharata and Ramayana and the Vedas. There is much beauty in them. But there are statements and stories that do seem as if the Gods have failings and passions that serve self more than others.

As to Bhakti movement seeking more direct experience of God, if you read their canonical text Bhagavad Gita, it itself is very contradictory and asks you repeatedly to be subservient to the supreme Godhead Krishna in devotional service. Krishna says that the devotees have privileges that non believers don't. The Cs in 6D STO realm don't ask us for subservience. They don't ask us to be worshipped or deified. Isn't devotional service to a Godhead, who is supposedly all powerful, a tool of domination and slavehood? Maybe it is just my subjective interpretation but the Gita does seem like it is a form corrupted channeling coming from both STS and STO oriented beings, primarily STS. (There are many more indications of STS nature of the text)

And who created the regressive caste system in the first place (which is also supposedly created by God, even mentioned in the Gita)? A system with its division of society into four classes and corresponding duties of each class (read: Manusmriti), from which Buddhism and other later traditions of Tantra or Bhakti may have tried to break out? It was there since the Vedic period. It was already deep rooted by the time of Gautam Buddha who is historically placed around 600 BC. Vedic texts and even Ramayana detail stories of elaborate animal sacrifices for gods (Read: The Myth of the Holy Cow by DN Jha, one example - Ashwamedha or horse sacrifice). What kind of gods would need such sacrifices to grant boons to their subjects? Their nature can only be STS.

I haven't yet read the book "When Zarathustra Spoke" though I have the book. It is next to read.

Some thoughts on the subject and some of the text may be repetition.

The extreme poverty is surely a big problem due to British imperialism that is fueled at the expense of Indian wealth ( its GDP was 24% at the beginning of the British rule and ended up with 4%). C's did say, Indian children are more used for their experimentation. Extreme poverty and endemic corruption and not so efficient police system feeds into it. It looks tome, when we see any country, countries go up and down for whatever natural cycle is.

Given that this planet is 4D STS garden until now, each place has its own type crop for 4D STS and Indian history seems to have lot of religious character through out history. As per C's Hindu Gods are 4D STS.

But, there are variations. some Gods are old and some new.

Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma are representations of old Veda's and Veda's seems to give too much importance to Fire, Wind, Indra etc. But, Velokovisky who analyzed world religions for his work in Worlds in collision mentioned that meaning of the words Vishnu means Venus and Shiva means Jupiter. If we add C's description of Venus's fiery rotations in the solar system before settling in the current orbit, planet inhabitants have seen all sorts of electrical phenomenon, which they thought Gods. Probably Veda'started "religious" aspect of the electrical phenomenon. There could be other symbolic mechanism too. for thousands years, there is lot of trade connections between India ( most south India) and countries like Vietnam, Thailand etc.


Around 600 BC, in reaction to Brahmin priest excesses, Buddhism an Jainism were born and Buddhism came to its height when Emperor Ashoka of Chandragupta dynasty adopted Buddhism around 250 BC. After this dynasty, the rulers are mostly Hindu kings, who transformed the entire religion to Hinduism. At that time, Brahmin priests are the only one knows Sanskrit. To make religion more adoptable, they converted texts to local languages and you can expect all sorts of changes according to local needs. I read book on critical study on Gita - Bhagavad Gita A Critical Study which analyzes the text , styles etc and concludes that it is conglomeration of many texts that were written under different contexts and regions.

Hindu religion tend to be absorb lot of gods of other religions and make them incarnation of Vishnu. I have seen representations of Buddha, in the 'incarnation' list. In some cases, Christ is also added to the list. Given that it is ruled by Muslims for 500+ years, Christians for 150 years( depending on the measure), lot of absorption happened. This suits well for MK Gandhi who united the people against British. Hinduism being one of the oldest surviving major religion, we can expect all sorts of reinventions to continue.
1994-10-20

1995-08-12

It does sounds like mixture of electrical phenomenon, some influential priests, some inventions and some observations from Meditation etc. morphed over time.
You're right - China and India have historically been two of the most affluent countries in the world with advanced metallurgy, agriculture, spices, fabrics, etc and have only recently deteriorated under the British Rule in the last few centuries. It may be part of a natural cycle between affluence and poverty like the economic business cycles. But even before India was under the colonial rule, the beliefs institutionalized subjugating misery on large sections of the society (eg Shudras or lower castes) and could still have been instrumental in creating rituals and traditions that may have been suitable for feeding by 4D STS like modern day America with focus on materialism.

I haven't read Velikovsky's book Worlds in Collision and it seems like an interesting interpretation of the Gods for sure. I don't know enough astronomy or comparative mythology to check the hypothesis that Hindu Gods could be a description of planet/comet Venus interacting with other planets while passing Jupiter. It is definitely intriguing but the texts contain numerous stories, not all of which can be explained by the comet theory.

I don't deny that one could try to easily explain away all the contradiction and negativity in the literature and practices as pure fabrication for the purpose of social control, mixed with channeling/information received in meditation, without resorting to 4D STS. But I have also come across recent modern day yogis/meditators in India who have meditated and chanted mantras like the Vedic yogis for thousands of hours. (read: Om Swami's books The Ancient Science of Mantras, If Truth be Told, Kundalini) In these books, there are experiences that seem to validate the existence of these gods and the texts, but is it real or reliable? Are such advanced meditators getting their information from their subconscious beliefs or from 4D STS or STO sources? Are STS sources duping them like it was done in the past that lead to the birth of the literature and these beliefs? That it is whole points of my asking for this line of inquiry with the Cs.
 
Last edited:
I do find it extremely strange that Zarathustra's teachings and the Vedas are exactly opposite in their depiction of daevas and asuras as good/evil. Will have to read more books comparing the two texts - Vedas and the Avesta. Any recommendations?




I understand the risk that my mind can try to find patterns from one or two statements in the transcripts where none exist. To be clear, I don't want to generalize broadly. I'm neither wanting to be derogatory or dismissive of the culture or the spiritual texts of the Indian culture entirely. "Hinduism" is not a term within the religion itself. And even the texts make up a massive body of literature which are sometimes very contradictory. Some texts like the Upanishads have deep questions and beautiful poetic passages as well. Same with the epics Mahabharata and Ramayana and the Vedas. There is much beauty in them. But there are statements and stories that do seem as if the Gods have failings and passions that serve self more than others.

As to Bhakti movement seeking more direct experience of God, if you read their canonical text Bhagavad Gita, it itself is very contradictory and asks you repeatedly to be subservient to the supreme Godhead Krishna in devotional service. Krishna says that the devotees have privileges that non believers don't. The Cs in 6D STO realm don't ask us for subservience. They don't ask us to be worshipped or deified. Isn't devotional service to a Godhead, who is supposedly all powerful, a tool of domination and slavehood? Maybe it is just my subjective interpretation but the Gita does seem like it is a form corrupted channeling coming from both STS and STO oriented beings, primarily STS. (There are many more indications of STS nature of the text)

And who created the regressive caste system in the first place (which is also supposedly created by God, even mentioned in the Gita)? A system with its division of society into four classes and corresponding duties of each class (read: Manusmriti), from which Buddhism and other later traditions of Tantra or Bhakti may have tried to break out? It was there since the Vedic period. It was already deep rooted by the time of Gautam Buddha who is historically placed around 600 BC. Vedic texts and even Ramayana detail stories of elaborate animal sacrifices for gods (Read: The Myth of the Holy Cow by DN Jha, one example - Ashwamedha or horse sacrifice). What kind of gods would need such sacrifices to grant boons to their subjects? Their nature can only be STS.



You're right - China and India have historically been two of the most affluent countries in the world with advanced metallurgy, agriculture, spices, fabrics, etc and have only recently deteriorated under the British Rule in the last few centuries. It may be part of a natural cycle between affluence and poverty like the economic business cycles. But even before India was under the colonial rule, the beliefs institutionalized subjugating misery on large sections of the society (eg Shudras or lower castes) and could still have been instrumental in creating rituals and traditions that may have been suitable for feeding by 4D STS like modern day America with focus on materialism.

I haven't read Velikovsky's book Worlds in Collision and it seems like an interesting interpretation of the Gods for sure. I don't know enough astronomy or comparative mythology to check the hypothesis that Hindu Gods could be a description of planet/comet Venus interacting with other planets while passing Jupiter. It is definitely intriguing but the texts contain numerous stories, not all of which can be explained by the comet theory.

I don't deny that one could try to easily explain away all the contradiction and negativity in the literature and practices as pure fabrication for the purpose of social control, mixed with channeling/information received in meditation, without resorting to 4D STS. But I have also come across recent modern day yogis/meditators in India who have meditated and chanted mantras like the Vedic yogis for thousands of hours. (read: Om Swami's books The Ancient Science of Mantras, If Truth be Told, Kundalini) In these books, there are experiences that seem to validate the existence of these gods and the texts, but is it real or reliable? Are such advanced meditators getting their information from their subconscious beliefs or from 4D STS or STO sources? Are STS sources duping them like it was done in the past that lead to the birth of the literature and these beliefs? That it is whole points of my asking for this line of inquiry with the Cs.
The reversal of devas and ahuras/asuras is indeed one of the most troubling aspects of the transmission.
Aside from Settegast's books, you can also read this paper that touches on this problem:

As for the selfishness found in the actions of actors in religious myths(which you also find in the Greek pantheon or Yahweh), I suggest reading Bernardo Kastrup's recent book "More than Allegory". He points out how religious myths might have served their purpose in the lived reality of people, without immediately going into the ancient astronaut theory.

As for the Bhagavad Gita being canonical for the Bhakti movement, that's one of the generalizations I am trying to point out to you. I think that in the West, "bhakti" has almost become synonymous with ISKON and its founder, Swami Prabhupada. Hence the focus on the Bhagavad Gita. It is not surprising that the Gita has contradictory views and a monotheistic bent when it comes to the Krishna movement; it was and is a philosophical battleground, with each sect trying to gain more followers. Seek10 has gone into this at length in the Gita thread on this forum; his points are based on the critical study book he linked to.
If you want to stick to texts, things would have to go much further though. For the aforementioned Tamil bhakti sects, for example, the Gita plays far less of a role than the Tirumurai. And this in turn still does not tell you much about the lived realities of yogis living in, let's say, 5th century Tamil Nadu, since they were inherently trying to break out from the dogmatism contained in the texts. There seem to be as many bhakti movements as there are gods/abstract formless God in South Asia. ISKON has definitely shifted popular perception to the idea that it's all about Vishnu/Krishna.
Also keep in mind that people are not all the same. Since the Gita lays out multiple pathways reminscient of the three ways Gurdjieff described, you could interpret anything into it and it also appealed to the widest possible audience. For example, not all people are intellectual enough to be interested in, or grasp, the contents of this forum here or the Wave series. The Cassiopaean way is not the only way.
What "bhakti" meant to people also seems to have changed over the centuries, also before the writing of the Gita. Devotion is also not just blind feeding of energy to 4D STS, but can also be utilized to be a valid tool to transform yourself or to loosen the grasp of your personal self so that you can have greater access to the "obfuscated mind"/greater mind that Bernardo Kastrup refers to in his case for idealism. To give you an example, I've seen people use multiple layers of "Guru Yoga" before, which essentially seeks to overcome their personal limitations by continously focusing on the characteristics and the image of either a human guru or a god/goddess, trying to meld with it. Is it a valid tool for spiritual transformation?

That depends! Might not be the best for a highly analytical, intellectual person, but might suit others. So the inquiry about the usefulness of mantras, bhakti as tools for real spiritual growth contained in your last question is hard to answer, as there is no one shoe size fits all type of spirituality out there.

As for the varna system. That's a clear case of corruption/social engineering useful to psychopathic elites. It went from an observation that people tend to be more talented at specific things, such as handcraft or intellectual pursuits or multiplying money, to a full blown hereditary control system. It boggles the mind that it could have survived well into the modern era. But then again, a handful of psychopaths are enough to guarantee these kind of things to 4D STS. You see a lot of obvious manipulations of this kind in the Puranas, which were written at a comparitively later date and contain agendas that tell you a lot about the writers.
 

sid

Jedi
@chrismcdude, both Eulenspiegel and seek10 have provided good answers to your enquiry already so, I am going try and avoid repeating that they have already mentioned.

I have the Zarathustra book as well and have already read few sections. Whilst I was waiting for the book to arrive, I ran into “Thus Spake Zarathustra” by Friedrich Nietzsche and speed read through few sections to gain a basic understanding of Zoroastrianism and it was an eye opener to say the least. The understanding I have formed is that the Indo-Iranian priests who migrated to the region called India took Zarathustra’s teachings and twisted them to establish control over the masses. Either that or they simply succumbed to the STS influences and allowed the teachings to be inverted and corrupted.

The priests needed a control mechanism to keep the masses ignorant and un-informed. They needed a system where they could control the flow of wealth and knowledge to their own benefit. Enter the caste system which was modelled on the four varnas. The caste system divided the Indian society into below four classes and in order of ranking –

1. Brahmins (Priests), 2. Kshatriyas (Warriors), 3. Vaishyas (Merchants) and 4. Shudras (artisans and labourers). Anyone outside of these 4 classes were called Dalits/Harijans (untouchables or scheduled caste). This class-based system is still prevalent in Indian society though wealth doesn’t play much role in it these days. The system is now being carried out via groups, sects, beliefs and diet etc.

The class system was initially sold to the masses as a way of societal organisation which would guarantee maximum fairness and equality. Every citizen understood their place in the society since birth and would not compete against or overthrow another class. The son of Brahmin would have access to all the assimilated knowledge and would pursue that knowledge to take his father’s place as an upstanding Brahmin, a merchant’s son would take up his father’s business and become a merchant himself etc. This ensured that people didn’t have to face the stress of competition that is prevalent in modern world where anyone can climb through the ranks through hard work regardless of class and lineage. Jobs were guaranteed for all young people and that in turn kept the society functional.

The system required everyone to perform their role to perfection however, it didn’t quite pan out that way. I am quoting below some paragraphs from a book that I read a while ago. The book is called “Ajaya: Epic of the KAURAVA Clan” by Anand Neelakantan and portrays the story of Mahabharata from the antagonist’s perspective i.e. the Kauravas. It’s a conversation between the Head priest of the kingdom of Hastinapura (present Delhi), Kripacharya and Karna, a pivotal character in Mahabharata. Karna approached Kripa as well as other priests/teachers in the kingdom to take him as a student but they all refused since he was a son of Suta(charioteer) – low class not worthy of education and training. Dejected by these rejections, Karna had jumped into the river to commit suicide but Kripa saves him from getting drowned and brings him ashore.

“Who the hell are you, you fool?” Kripa slapped the sodden face and heard a sob.

“Forgive me.”

Kripa was surprised. The voice had not yet broken; it was that of a boy, not some drunken reveller as he had expected. Kripa felt sorry for the woebegone figure before him. How much unhappiness must the boy have endured in his short life to compel him to take such an extreme step?

“What happened to you, son? Why are you trying to end your life?” Kripa’s hand dropped onto the boy’s head while he tried to identify the face.

“Swami, I am a wretched low-caste, a Suta, a charioteer’s son, and no one wishes to teach me anything.”

Suta! It was the son of that chariot driver, Athiratha. He remembered the day they had come to him and how he had treated them. ‘Did I not try to make amends? Did I not call out to them as they passed today, to say I accepted their request? But they were in too much of a hurry to hear me out.’ Kripa tried to justify his actions but knew he had behaved like a rogue. There was no denying that. He looked down at the wretched boy and said, “I forget your name but I remember you and your father coming to me. I am Kripa.”

“Acharya Kripa? Swami, why did you save me? Why did you risk your life for a worthless Suta?”

“Tell me your name.”

“Guru, I was named Vasusena, but am known to all as Karna.”

“Karna, you fool! Listen to me. Do not keep repeating you are low-born and such rubbish. No one is low or high. If you accept you are low-born, the world will be happy to concede that to you.”

“But I am charioteer’s son.”

“You are ignorant. Listen and learn to keep your mouth shut. That will serve you well in life. I will tell you this only once, for I am giving this advice free of cost. I ought to charge you for it but I owe you something now. You allowed me to save you from death and that has made me feel good about myself. For a change, I will tech you something free. Now, tell me what made you jump into the river at this hour?”

The rain had slackened a little and Karna sat without moving, staring at the river that hid so much.

“I know what you are thinking. You are blaming me for what is happening to you. You feel I am heartless and the world is cruel. You are cursing yourself for being born poor. You are lamenting the fact that you have a mere chariot driver as a parent. You look at your dilapidated hut and think how nice it would be to have been born into a rich home.”

“Swami, I did not…” Karna did not want to look at the Brahmin’s face. The river offered more solace.

“There is nothing wrong with such thoughts. They will make you strive harder in life and motivate you to achieve your dreams, provided you know how to channel your frustration and anger. Life is a gamble. You do not know how the dice will fall. But once they have, how you move the pieces is in your hands. It is mere chance that you were not born a Kshatriya or Brahmin. You could have been born a Nishada or Naga and then your Suta home would have looked like a palace. The die has been cast and you cannot do anything about it. But you can choose to be a Brahmin or Kshatriya or Nishada or anything you want.”

Kripa smiled at Karna’s confusion. “Look at me when I speak”. You are wondering how is it possible to be something else. Society has taught fools like you to believe in the chance of birth. The Priests have told you that if you are born as a Brahmin, only then can you be a Brahmin. If your parents are Pariah, you will be a slave forever to all the other castes. It is all too easy to fool the people of our country.”

“But… the Vedas say…”

“The Vedas do not say any such nonsense. The majority of our people do not even read the Vedas. Tell me, who is a Brahmin?”

“You are… Acharya Kripa…”

“If we go strictly by the Vedas, a Brahmin is one who has sought and found brahma; one who has found God within himself, in his thoughts, gained through knowledge. Do Drona or I look like we have found God? I cannot even find the way to my house on most days! A Kshatriya is supposed to be one who has found God in action, by doing his duty. A Vaishya is one who has found God in trade, by creating wealth; and a Shudra is one who has found God in love, by serving society. It has nothing to do with where or to whom anyone is born. You could be the Shudra son of a Brahmin father or vice versa. Whatever the silly Priests say, nowhere in any of our scriptures is it written that any one way of finding God is better than all the others. They do not even say that finding God is better than not doing so. The Vedic mind wonders about the mysteries of creation and the universe, but it does not speak in the voice of absolute truth. The Vedas merely hold the wonder of Man regarding the universe in which he lives.”

“Guru, what you say must be true, but what about the society in which we live?”

“The Vedas are clear about society. For society to have balance, all four varnas are required. Knowledge, thought, direction, action, power, leadership, wealth, money, art, love – are like organs of the body. One cannot say only one is important. That is why it is said the four varnas are the four parts of Brahma. You may have heard pseudo-Brahmins boasting of how they emerged from Brahma’s head.; the Kshatriyas from his arms; the Vaishyas from his thighs” Kripa paused and smiled at Karna. “And…”

“And Shudras like me originated from the feet of God,” Karna said, looking straight at the Brahmin.

“Feeling glum about it, are we Karna?” laughed Kripa, lifting an eyebrow in his own inimitable style. “Our scriptures used this allegory to show that each varna is equally important. But we see what is happening now. The head is claiming that only it is important. How stupid! Without the heart, the head is dead. Without hands, the body cannot act, and without thighs, the legs will not remain connected to the body or move. Now the head is claiming that it does not need the legs! The head has become rotten with no exercise. Instead, it has ordered the heart to cut off the blood supply to the legs. Hence, society is incapable of going anywhere. The arms just flay and occasionally beat each other. Sometimes they clap and make loud noises, but it means nothing. The head produces some smritis, useless philosophical speculations and rituals, but nothing else. It has stopped producing anything useful for humanity. The thighs too, do not get the protection of the arms, which are fighting each other; nor do they receive knowledge from the head or movement from the legs. They stay in one place and just grow fat and ugly, choking the blood flow to the feet. This is the picture of our society today. The head, the Brahmins, are saying they do not need the feet, the Shudras. Where will they go without feet? They will simply remain where they are and rot.”

“But Guru, our country has produced great thinkers. If what you say is true, how…”

“Karna, you speak of the past, but what about the present? The barbarian people of the west are progressing quickly and we have lost our advantage. If we continue to deny the benefits of education to the majority of our people by claiming the false authority of the scriptures, one day we will find the barbarians ruling us. The people, whom we now contemptuously call Mlechas(Foreigners), will swarm across the country, attacking us from the borders of Gandhara (present Kashmir located in Himalayas) or the southern coast. But they will find only the hollow shell of our civilisation left. The core has already rotted. They will only need to give a slight push and the shell will collapse. Then they will rule us, al the fools; Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra alike, and crush us underfoot. I am sure our frogs-in-the-well will say that it is all written in our scriptures and it is but the advent of the next eon, Kali Yuga, or some such nonsense.” Kripa stopped speaking and gazed at the cloud-enveloped sky in silence.

“But Swami, it is only by doing one’s kula dharma that one can achieve moksha.” Karna had forgotten the rain, agog at the Acharya’s words. It was rare indeed for an adult to speak to him about such serious subjects.

“That is another misinterpretation. What is moksha? It is finding happiness in life. Nothing more, nothing less. The rest is pure speculation. You should meet my friend, Carvaka. He will explain these things better than I can. If you think you can find happiness in life only by becoming a warrior, then that is what you should strive for. There should not be an iota of doubt in your mind. Np guru or scripture can stop you if you are determined to fight for your goals.”

Kripa smiled at Karna. ‘Does the boy have it in him?’ the Guru wondered.

“But nobody will teach me because of my caste...” Karna spoke the only unshakable truth he knew.

“Aha, Vasusena Karna! I hear your accusation against me on your tone. But I did not refuse you because of your caste. I asked for my fee and you were not ready to pay. It is not that I care for money. The six feet of soil under the Banyan tree and the slice of sky that peeps through its branches are more than enough for me. But never forget - everything in life has a price. Come to me tomorrow with whatever money you have and I will still teach you to become the finest warrior in India.”
The topic of Caste system is further covered in the book at various places. In fact, I highly recommend below three books by the same author which portray the stories of Ramayana and Mahabharat with an opposing view with real human characters (no pretentious gods) and a better explanation of how the events might have transpired.
Asura: Tale of the Vanquished – Story of Ramayana told from Ravana’s perspective
Ajaya: Roll of the Dice – Story of Mahabharata Part 1
Ajaya: Rise of Kali – Story of Mahabharata Part 2, covers the great war, Gita and destruction of Kauravas and Pandavas

I should add that Brahmans were also and still are considered the moral authority in India. They were often gifted and sometimes demanded from the king a large section of land to establish their farms/schools and a big herd of cows to produce milk and ghee for their families. They effectively hoarded all the healthy livestock in a kingdom, had access to prime estate and then banned killing of cows and other animals. This automatically forced vegetarianism amongst the higher classes across the regions of their influence. The Shudras and untouchables would still rear poultry and herd goats or catch fish from the rivers and were often derided and chastised for such practices. Since they were the lowest class, they were somewhat left alone. However, the disease called vegetarianism spread widely and we all know how bad that is to our mental faculties. India has highest number of vegetarians in the whole world and that reflects in their lack of intellectual achievements and dismal physical health. I grew up eating vegetarian and felt like a 50-year-old at the age of 20.

Both Ravana (the antagonist from Ramayana epic– killed by Rama) and Suyodhana (the antagonist from Mahabarata epic – killed by Pandavas) were educated men and free thinkers. Both ate meat, donated freely, ruled justly, tried to bring universal equality and abolish the caste system however the Brahmins of the North India (in case of Ravana) and Brahmins from South India (in case of Suyodhana) plotted against them both and instigated the biggest mass murders in Indian history by playing the hidden hand behind both mega wars.

Since victors write histories, the winners from both wars were written into the epics as heroes and incarnations of gods such as Vishnu, Shiva, Indra etc. And those two epics still play large role in influencing Indian populace They form the perfect trifecta of history, religion and mythology – the greatest tools of mass manipulation.

Now, to answer the rest of your questions from the original post, I would ask you to imagine what would happen if a city destroying asteroid were to land in India? A considerable percentage of Indian population is illiterate + poor and have no knowledge or understanding of the world outside of their habituated areas, let alone outside India. Such masses will perceive an asteroid hit to be a judgement from god whom could be either Vishnu, Shiva, Kali or insert your favourite god here. They say in India that we have over a billion gods and goddesses – an asteroid or comet can have billions of fragments. See the resemblance?

India and its habitants suffer because of lack of knowledge to see through the deception, not because of Hinduism, Casteism or its billion gods. Its no different to the suffering of people elsewhere – only the tools of manipulation are different and adapted to suit the regions. In order to reach a finer understanding of this matter, I may ask that you read through the recommended books and try seeing the issue with a wider lens.

The mythological stories are intended to portray a hidden message to the future generations despite the distortions that may get introduced by re-writings and amendments by malicious actors. They all portray a war of some sort preceded by disease and pestilence. Specifically, they portray how the collective mind of the society begins to degrade. The end of civilisation socially and culturally, the propagation of the wetiko virus and rise of psychopathy followed by a complete annihilation by war or natural disasters. That is the real message and hidden learning to be had.

The 4D STS will employ all the tricks they have up their sleeve. According to Velikovsky, Planet Venus made seven passes between Earth and Mars and brought lightning strikes and destruction each time. Indians say that Vishnu have taken seven incarnations on Earth to slay the evil doers and may return. The 4D STS could very well present themselves to be avatars of Vishnu to befuddle and hoodwink the masses even further or they may not. It’s a moot point really and any debates on this would only serve as distraction.

And to answer your questions about Bhakti movements and Gita teachings, I can safely say that they have been distorted to the point that everything they teach is best ignored or practice extreme discernment. Ever come across the Hare Rama Hare Krishna crowd, run for the hills!!
 

itellsya

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I do find it extremely strange that Zarathustra's teachings and the Vedas are exactly opposite in their depiction of daevas and asuras as good/evil. Will have to read more books comparing the two texts - Vedas and the Avesta. Any recommendations?
Other than those mentioned in this thread, Laura has suggested elsewhere a number of other books, more recently whittled down to (at least) 3, that provide the history and an outline of the beliefs and practices of Zoroastrianism. This, i think, is understood to be remnants of an original religion (of which Zurvanism is mentioned?) which was later corrupted.

I recently read Dawn and Twilight, which, along with both of Settegast's books, informs my response below that is not comparing the two texts but is merely my attempt to outline some of what i've understood to be differences. In Dawn, Zaehner does go into some parts of the Veda's compared to the Avesta and other Zoroastrian texts.

Starting with a brief overview of what Zoroaster was attempting to do with his reforms, and what he was calling Daeva/Deva worship, Whitecoast recently posted the following from Settegast:

There are, fortunately, a few ancient models from which one might work. One, the earliest attested example of religious reform in Greece, comes to us with the enigmatic figure of Orpheus, the legendary musician whose song could tame wild beasts, move stones and trees, and even abrogate the laws of Hades in his descent in quest of Eurydice. However mythicized Orpheus had become by the sixth century B. C., he is generally believed to have been a real person, a religious leader whose teachings were to influence Plato as well as Pythagoras.

[it's interesting that Zoroastrianism was big on pastoralism/agriculture - itellsya's note]

Little is known of the life of Orpheus; some scholars believe he was born in Thrace; others see Crete as the home of Orphism, if not of its founder, perceiving in Crete that "strange blend of Egyptian and primitive Pelasgian which found its expression in Orphic rites." 172 It is unlikely that he lived before the late second millennium B.c.,* but it will nevertheless be worth our while to consider the Orphic reform, insofar as it is known, before examining signs of a similar phenomenon in the upper levels at • Diodorus Siculus (VII. 1) put Orpheus at around 1300 B.c.; others have dated him to as late as the sixth century B.c .

We obviously cannot hope to do justice in this space to an extraordinarily complex system of thought which many scholars place at the root of Greek philosophy. But as it is the religion of Zagreus-Dionysos with which Orpheus is commonly associated, and as he is said to have revealed the "true spiritual meaning of the old religion," A brief review of Orphic principles may enlarge our understanding not only of the general pattern of religious reform, but also of the doctrines that informed the Cretan, and possibly the Catal, brand of mysticism.

The Orphic Religion


What Orpheus found, in Crete or Thrace or both, was a form of Dionysian religion that evidently sought transcendence through maddening music, dance, wine, and, at the pitch of excitement generated by these devices, the rending of certain animals. What Orpheus did, it is said, was to replace the licentiousness of this cult with asceticism. Retaining the Dionysian idea that man might become god, Orphism held that abstinence and purification rather than physical intoxication were the means by which divinity was to be achieved . Not only was the drunkenness of the Thracian cult denounced, but also its excesses of animal sacrifice. The Orphic ideal, in short, was a Dionysos "tamed, and clothed, and in his right mind-in a word, Apollinised ."

Although he is most often associated with Dionysos, Orpheus is said to have been a priest of Apollo, whom he accounted the greatest of gods and identified with the sun. The reforming principle is itself considered to be Apollonian . To transform orgiastic rites through order and reason, to bring the solar principle to the lunar, to emphasize the unity (monotheism) rather than the diversity (polytheism) of god- these are all traditional ways of expressing the spirit of reform. The elevation of fire above the other elements is also Apollonian (and Orphic); according to Plutarch :

"God's transformation into fire is called Apollo by reason of its unity, or Phoebos by reason of its pure and unpolluted character ; but as to his turning into wind, water , earth, stars, births of plants and animals, and his ordering of the universe in general, they hint at his suffering and transformation by speaking of a certain rending-asunder and dismemberment; they call him Dionysos , Zagreus. . . ." (On the Ei. 388-89)
Some of Zoroaster's main tenets seem to be: Right mind, right speech, right speech deeds. That our world was a creation of Ormazd/Ahura Mazda and it was the followers obligation to go forth into the world, be productive and create abundance. Incorporated into this was that one had to exercise moderation and reason, and not the extremes of asceticism nor excess, and for one to be charitable with one's bounty with those most deserving. There was even a part in Dawn which described enjoyment and pleasure, within this frame of moderation using reason, as a totally natural, even reverent, experience, if we consider that it relates back to god.

In Settegast i believe she demonstrates this shift from excess through the stratigraphic layers at Çatalhöyük, because in the early layers they find numerous bull skulls, likely as part of ritual and sacrifice, in later layers they found it much more spartan.

So with the above in mind, how it compares with Hinduism as it's practiced by many in India, from my understanding - which is admittedly limited: there does seem to be a lot of pomp and circumstance surrounding religion; much time, resources and thought go into these numerous festivals held throughout the country, throughout the year, where sometimes bizarre, and relatively pointless displays of devotion to a certain god are performed; sticking spikes through ones skin, chucking cow dung at each other or breaking coconuts over ones head as just some examples.

We have the ascetics/yogi's who stand on one leg for countless hours/days to prove their devotion, which isn't really being productive at all, and actually necessitates charity; it also does not follow the means of moderation, it's an extreme. If we are to consider chanting and meditation, in the right context quieting the mind can be beneficial, but in excess it is simply shutting out the world and wasting time.

In regards to charity, i can't imagine Zoroaster would have endorsed that a class be defined as 'untouchable', as we find in India.

Those are just some examples that come to mind. And it would appear there some quite stark differences to religion and in it's application in how one is to live a devoted life. One could argue that the texts do not ask for this - and i wouldn't know - what i'm commenting on is what actually happens in practice.

Zoroastrianism has the bounteous immortals as aspects of god but, unlike Hinduism, they are not gods themselves. I think the idea is that it is difficult/impossible to comprehend god and these aspects assist with ones understanding.


Then onto the discussion of the caste system:

As for the varna system. That's a clear case of corruption/social engineering useful to psychopathic elites. It went from an observation that people tend to be more talented at specific things, such as handcraft or intellectual pursuits or multiplying money, to a full blown hereditary control system. It boggles the mind that it could have survived well into the modern era. But then again, a handful of psychopaths are enough to guarantee these kind of things to 4D STS. You see a lot of obvious manipulations of this kind in the Puranas, which were written at a comparitively later date and contain agendas that tell you a lot about the writers.
Further to Eulenspiegel's comment, in Dawn, the author notes that Zoroastrianism tended towards seeing the populace in 3 particular groups: priests, warriors, and farmers. There was no mention of this being anything like the caste system in India.

In Reich's book Who We Are and How We Got Here he discusses the caste system and how it has affected genes - i don't remember off the top of my head but a quick search came up with the following:

“The big news is that a lot of the stratification in India seems to be set down in the last few thousand years. The date estimates they give correspond to what we think is the arrival of the Indo-European languages,’’ said Spencer Wells, director of National Geographic’s Genographic Project, which is aimed at untangling the origins of indigenous populations. “There’s been a big debate in archeology about how that happened.’’

The researchers believe that instead of a new population invading south Asia, both populations were already present in India. Thus, the mixing doesn’t represent a surge of newcomers, but more likely the breakdown of some cultural or traditional barrier that had led to a natural separation between the two groups.

What most interests Reich for future research, however, are the health implications of these ancient patterns of mixing. The caste system, which restricts marriage to people of different groups, gave rise to populations that were genetically isolated, and therefore may be more likely to harbor rare genetic diseases.

“That is not really well appreciated in India,’’ Reich said.
“An important medical thing is to document this and characterize it.’’
There doesn't appear to be the same glaring genetic markers that we find differentiating the castes, like in India, elsewhere (except Judaism) - at least tmk. Although I believe Zoroaster was the son of a priest? So, as mentioned, groupings were acknowledged as normal.

As per some of Sid's post, there does appear to have been reason behind it. While in our time it there's been more of a leveling and movement between groups is easier and more acceptable, the effect of one's group and its history, if the thread in Albion's seed is anything to go by, can be profound.

As a slight aslide, group specialisation and perfecting one's abilities reminded me of what Collingwood wrote about medieval times and the benefits of these groupings. It's also notable that Collingwood stresses that Medieval life revolved around religion:

Speculum Mentis by R.G Collingwood
Page 18

If, for instance, we turn to
the middle ages and ask what was the most striking feature of their life, we shall
reply that medieval life was altogether governed by the idea of institutions. The
individual counted for nothing except as the member of his guild, his church, his
monastic order, his feudal hierarchy. Within these institutions he found a place
where he was wanted, work for him to do, a market for his wares. He could
devote himself to fulfilling the duties assigned him by his station in this great
organism within which he found himself lodged, these duties occupied his whole
energy and his whole life, and thus the institution acted as the safeguard of the
individual’s utility and happiness. In saying this we do not idealize medieval life

or hold it free from defect. We do not forget either the corruptions to which these
institutions too often succumbed, their tendency to level downwards, or the
hideous fate of those adventurous souls who found their limits too narrow. But
the very tendency to level downwards, the very narrowness of medieval
institutionalism, secured one great benefit, namely the happiness of those
humble ordinary men and women who ask not for adventure or excitement, but
for a place in the world where they shall feel themselves usefully and
congenially employed.
So those are just some thoughts on the discussion so far, fwiw.
 
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whitecoast

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I remember even in medieval Europe soceity was divided into tripartite order, between those who prayed, those who fought, and those who worked. This division apparently has quite deep Laurasian roots, as stated in Witzel's History of World Mythology:

We can observe this developmen (of Laurasian myth-inspired state societies), happening almost in front of our eyes, among the Neolithic food-producing societies of the eight islands of Hawai’i. They were united under a common leader, King Kamehameha, only at the end of the 18th century. At the time of Captain Cook’s visit (1778), the islands still had their own chieftains, and a clear division of classes existed: kahuna (priests), ali’i (nobles), kanaka (commoners), and slaves. The ali’i and kahuna guarded their rights vigorously, employing a taboo ( kapu ) system that threatened instant death for violators.

It was important to link the local nobility, and especially their supreme leader, the king, with the divine ancestors. The method, or rather, the trick, used in most emerging state societies was to restrict divine ancestry and the origins of the world’s mythologies access to heaven after death to the nobility and the priests. Hawai’ian commoners were said not to have permanent souls: when they died, they would just travel to the western end of the island and jump off the cliff ( pali )—into oblivion.

A similar class system comes into view in the emerging Kuru state of post Ṛgvedic India, around 1000 bce . Only the three upper ( ārya ) classes, that is, the mutually interdependent noblemen (Kṣatriya) and priests (Brahman) as well as some wealthy commoners (Vaiśya), had—and still have—the right to perform the solemn Vedic śrauta rituals that alone lead to heaven. The fourth class (Śūdra) was and still is excluded. The Śūdra had to look for other means of “salvation,” such as in the later, now popular Hindu rituals. This division of society is first mentioned, as indicated, in connection with the creation from the giant Puruṣa, in the hymn RV 10.90, which has therefore been called “the first constitution of India.”
Earlier on Witzel contrasts Hinduism with Zoroastrianism (and by extension Christianity) here:

[As some societies developed] the myth of divine solar descent was restricted, as mentioned, to the emerging Neolithic noble and royal lineages: in Egypt, China, Japan, Hawai’i, the Inca realm, and post-Vedic India (Sūryavaṃśa). Even religions (Zoroastrian, Abrahamic) that introduced countermoves against such societal restrictions, such as the idea of personal responsibility and moral choice, are still based on the myths of a time line and of a story line that extend from original creation to the final destruction and eventual re-creation of the world.
So there is a very clear difference in societies that defined the nature of people's souls based on the status of their birth into the society and those which didn't, and in fact which lauded the poor and the laborers. In India and Hawaii aristocracy was much more brutal and oppressive because it was all the more intellectual in nature. The souls of the marginalized were of a lower nature by definition. Whereas the opposite was true of Christianity, which has always been adamant that the rich and powerful are in particular danger of moral wreck. In a roundabout way this error in Hinduism was redressed in the emergence of Buddhism, which denied the importance of caste in determining one's spiritual position, criticized the extremes of both asceticism and hedonistic ecstasy, and even said that heaven in itself wasn't really the best place to be because people there often just burn through all their good karma living in bliss and pleasure, only to wind up back on earth with nothing to show for it.
 

Laura

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Oh, excellent posts you guys! I couldn't have done better myself!

It might be helpful to find and lay out the myths the seem to go with Zoroastrianism. Especially about the cow and its possible relation to what itellsya mentioned regarding Çatalhöyük with its cow horns etc. Also, that may expose the primal myth of the death of the bull and how it then gave "birth" to the natural world which is represented in the Mithra Tauroctony iconography. Apparently, this was behind the paleolithic cave paintings, then, after the "wars", a warrior society emerged and things got wild for a bit - some of the Dionysian effects - and then, Zoroaster came along to reform the religion that had gone so far astray by trying to bring it back to its origins somewhat, though certainly introducing and justifying new features.

The book "When Zarathustra Spoke" is just fascinating in this respect.
 

seek10

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I never saw Hindu religion w.r.t Angkor Wat or Zoroastrian perspective. I thought Hindu texts in Angkor Wat are natural progression from India to East through trade routes that were there for at least 2500 years. This threadmade me rethink different aspects? - Did Vishnu god came from Angkor Wat or did he exists in Veda's before that? This made me search little more.

In order to understand what contributed to what I will put it in Timelines perspective as I read ( C's or other sources etc.) and put some comments.

Zorastraian Time lines 6500 BC( From book Zorastrain speaks book):

I read some chapters in "When Zarathustra Spoke" book. It was interesting and it goes behind the story before Aryans came into India. Zarathustra's date is placed at 6500BC. We don't know exactly when Rigveda was created, but comparison of remaining Zatha and Ridveda was clear and distinct. It explains where Indo-Iranian branch split it into Iranian branch and Indian branch.

Zoroastrian TraditionVedic TraditionComments
RitualRitual exist, but it is simple representation ( earth, sun, animal products) done by individual himselfThis is priest directed, can be confusing and costly.
HierarchyNot so much hierarchical at least in Zatha's perspective and some later texts seems to suggests there may be hierarchical as Veda'sKashtriya, Brahmana, Vysya and Sudra and untouchablesMajor difference
Good and EvilExist: Deva's bad , Asura's goodExist: opposite.Vedic Gods( Indra, wind, fire etc.) are different from the modern gods ( Rama, Krishna, Vishnu, Siva) though they have some side roles.
Choiceunmediated choice, individual chooses ( I guess according to owns own conscience) to the service.More Ritual based; Priest driven
DeitiesMonotheismPolytheismOther Monotheistic religions ( Judaism, Islam or Christianity)
CleanlinessVery important in all aspect of the planetNot much mentioned
AimTo reform Nomadic warrior like pastorals to one location based non warrior style who strive for righteousnessIn veda's it has Dharma. Which actually changes for each caste, duties etc.
It also explains couple of points:

  • I always wondered why Muslims who conquered Iran wiped out Zoroastrian thus forcing some them to run to India the Same Muslims didn't wipe out Hindu's. There could be other reasons like Mongols didn't kill all Chinese cultures, instead they made China their home. Probably Moguls did the same with India as the population is large and resistance will be too much. Added to that Moguls has always resistance from Hindu pockets, which they did expand ( Ex: Maratha Kingdom). In any case, If the upstairs folks, wants to wipe out or convert, probably nothing stops as we see all other cultures like native Americans , Zoroastrians etc.
  • If we are all from same stock of Aryans ( C's prototype 4b, 4c etc.) and caste system came from Aryans ,why caste system survived only in India. Probably, Zoroastrianism wiped out castes as much as it can and being in open land( close connection in Asia and Europe etc), its effect spread all over the place.

DateEventComment
6243 BC- ( C's Time line (TL) 8243 Years Ago)Aryans Invaded India. before that Asian tribes and #3 prototype; We are 4b,c,d. Rama was Tribal leader under the influence of confederationIt was not clear of Rama's Timelines after very later or before. Tribal by in its nature, it is local event not a national event.
4098 BC 6092 yr ago- (1994 sess)city of Mohenjo Daro – built by Reptilian Beings- people were taken to other planets. Last time they inhabited 3065 years ago(1994).It lasted 3000 years . Traditional interpretation is Hinduism might have come from here. They do have caste system, but their god is bearded guy called Pasupati- though considered as Siva, looks are very different. There is speculation that Mohenjo Daro is destroyed by nuclear blast based on the partially glassed stones.
3131BC 5129 yrs ago: "nordic covenant came to existence , - pact between Mostly between humans and humans, but some of the other. To safeguard the secret of Bloodline extends off the planet andNot sure of this covenant has any thing to do with this topic.
3218 BC/ 3217/3216The city of Baalbek - built by Atlanteans and Sumerians -they created Huge building for huge people which they genetically engineered- but failed- stopped because of venus passage.
3216 BC: Venus first appearance and pass.
3217 BC 5211 yrs ago: life of Hermes Trismegistus - Traitor to court of Pharoah Rana ( Egyptian leader of spiritual covenant ). Broke covenant of spiritual unity of all peoples in area now known as Middle East. Broke covenant of spiritual unity of all peoples in area now known as Middle East. power hungry ,inspired by white brotherhood (which is created by lizzies)
First Venus Passage
2676 BC:Exodus in Bible happened.- last passage of the comet Venus- 7 passes Venus make through the solar system before it was precipitated into a regular planetary orbit-At that time cometa Venus pass close to the earth and cause disruptionVenus's Last passage
1644 BC 1644 to 1628 BC:Last return of comet cluster - returns around 3600 yrs
1110BC 3108 yrs ago(1998 sess) Angkor Wat - Reptelians built it - people moved to other planets.Another incubator lab to airlifted to other planets. We didn't know how long they incubated to airlift and how frequent. But Cambodia history (as per Wiki) seems to start with 50 AD with Hindu Kings and Chinese visitor in 250 AD wrote of fantastic structures and advanced civilization. so Angkor Wat of 12th century is not correct. But the real question is
- If Angkor What created in 1110BC and first empire started in 50 AD, Did Indian got Vishnu from Angkhor Wat?
. True, Indians are busy in the trade routes in the Indian oceans. But some how that information is not there
1071BC 3065 yrs ago (1994): Last in-habitation in Mohenjo Daro - people moved to other planets.It is interesting when Mohenjo Daro is winding up, Angkor Wat pops up
Angkhor wat

Here is a interesting impressive(ignore the dates) Video on Angkhor Wat , that picked my curiosity


Impressive structures ; sophisticated intricate water system ; CAmbodian and Sanskrit texts, As big as modern day London, Palace itself holds 12,000 people , Walled city can hold 90K to 150K people. small farmer colonies to few fuedal rulers each village settlement has one structure like that. Land of golden lions, bronze elephants and horses.

One Chinese diplomat who visited Angkhor Wat 700 years back during the time of Suryavarman II 1181, wrote some thing bizzare:

- This was built in single day by divine architect {Take it with some salt}. Single day is interesting though, probably came from some myth.
- King goes into top of the golden tower, sleeps in there every night. There is a Genie - snake with 9 heads and appears as the woman and copulates with the king. If the Genie doesn't come any day, King is going to die { One interpreation is : King has 5 wifes, 3000 Harems that was sent by surrounding villages as concubines .
- women are on top of the trade, power and authority. highly sexed, they are ready for sex just after 2 days after birth. If the husband is not ready, they will be discarded.
Descriptions of this structure is out of this world. Here is Wiki Link ( Look at the history section).

Geopolitical India over time post in another link

If you see the above video, it starts with Mohenjo Daro around 2900 BC, then you have indus Valley kingdoms until 1500 BC, then Vedic Kingdoms that goes for around 500 BC, then Mauryan empire around 300 BC ( converted to Buddhism). Indians did have good trade relations with South eastern kingdoms as far as 500BC ( not sure before).

Once I asked our priest where these epics came from. Thinking his information is correct , he said it is Veda's, then to Upanishads, then to Purana's and to epics like Ramayan and Mahabharat.

Veda's doesn't have Mahabharata (mainly Krishna ) and Angkhor Wat has Ramayan and Mahabharata. It has all those Garuda's, snakes etc. The similarities between Angkhor Wat and current Hindu temples are very striking but they are very small scale. This makes me wonder whether Angkhor Wat is template delivered hundreds of years in advance for Indians to emulate later in architecture? Sounds Wierd.

Programming part:
I guess it is for ritualistic angle.

Traditional Education System before British Era ( GuruKula System) : Students lived with Teacher who generally outside the city, live, study and help with teacher for many years. Some schools for all castes, some for upper caste only depending on the time. If the caste based ; traditional skills according to caste are taught : War fare for Kshatriya, Sanskrit religious teaching for Brahmans, trade for Vaisya, and other family trade for others. Since most of the teachers are Brahmans or people who relinquished their family duties for spiritual needs ( Saints and Fakirs).
Here are some links Gurukula - Wikipedia
History of education in the Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia

It looks LOT to dig through.
 

John G

The Living Force
It might be helpful to find and lay out the myths the seem to go with Zoroastrianism. Especially about the cow and its possible relation to what itellsya mentioned regarding Çatalhöyük with its cow horns etc. Also, that may expose the primal myth of the death of the bull and how it then gave "birth" to the natural world which is represented in the Mithra Tauroctony iconography. Apparently, this was behind the paleolithic cave paintings, then, after the "wars", a warrior society emerged and things got wild for a bit - some of the Dionysian effects - and then, Zoroaster came along to reform the religion that had gone so far astray by trying to bring it back to its origins somewhat, though certainly introducing and justifying new features.
That primal myth relates moon deities to bull/cattle deities and that relationship seems to get around and fits with the Cs mentioning of Hittite moon worshipers. Even when those Hittite Zoroastrians of sorts (Sarah/Nefertiti and Abraham/Ay) are in Egypt, the bull/cattle/moon deity idea is there via Atum who had a bull manifestation (Mnevis) that even Akhenaten liked. Wikipedia says that when the son of Atum (Khonsu) "caused the crescent moon to shine, women conceived, cattle became fertile, and all nostrils and every throat was filled with fresh air."

I liked your idea of Ay fitting best with the Cs idea of a Hittite Abraham. Ay seemed to be into Min-Amun. From Wikipedia: "By the New Kingdom he was also fused with Amun in the form of Min-Amun, who was also the serpent Irta, a kamutef (the "bull of his mother" - aka father of his own mother as well as her son)... Min's shrine was crowned with a pair of bull horns." Seems the bull deity has lost the moon deity in favor of kind of being of sorts the creator and created.
 
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