Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

mada85

The Living Force
#1
IMPORTANT NOTE: For more information about when Vitamin C could be contraindicated or needs to be taken in a specific way, please read the thread Hemochromatosis and Autoimmune Conditions, especially if you notice any worsening of your symptoms after Vitamin C intake.

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While researching vitamin C (or, more properly, ascorbic acid) I came across the work of Irwin Stone and his book The Healing Factor: Vitamin C against Disease, first published in 1972. There have been various references to vitamin C on the forum, but I was unable to find any substantial reference to or quotes from Dr Stone’s book. Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere.

The cover blurb:

After 40 years research, Irwin Stone unfolds his startling conclusion that an ancient genetic mutation has left the primate virtually alone among animals in not producing ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) in his own body. By treating it as a "minimum daily requirement" instead of the crucial enzyme it really is, we are living in a state of sub-clinical scurvy whose symptoms have been attributed to other ailments. The answer is to change our thinking about Vitamin C and consume enough to replenish this long-lost "healing factor." Stone illustrates, with massive documentation, Vitamin C's remarkable ability to fight disease, counteract the ill effects of pollution and prolong healthy life -- easily and inexpensively!
Dr Stone’s thesis is that human beings suffer from a genetic glitch that prevents us from synthesising ascorbic acid in our bodies. This is not common in nature. In fact the primates, including man, are the only group whose bodies cannot make ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid is vital for the health and good functioning of the human body. According to Dr Stone, ascorbic acid is not a vitamin – it has been called vitamin C in the past, dating from the time of its discovery as the cure for scurvy. Dr Stone tells us that we need much greater quantities of ascorbic acid than the generally accepted recommended daily amount. At the time his book was written, the only tests on animals using ascorbic acid had been done on rats, and using this as a base, Stone calculated that human beings require between 3 and 11 grams of ascorbic acid daily. This is a maintenance dose, and Stone thought that people require increased doses in times of stress. Therapeutic doses can be much greater – up to 300 grams per day!

In Dr Stone’s opinion virtually everyone suffers from sub-clinical scurvy; that is, we all get a small amount of ascorbic acid in our food, enough to prevent acute scurvy, but not enough for optimum health. It seems that ascorbic acid has a great many benefits for the human body.

Dr Stone’s reasoning about ascorbic acid appears to be sound. I’ve included some lengthy quotes from Dr Stone’s book which the reader may find interesting, and some information from other sources.

First, a brief biographical description of Irwin Stone, from Wikipedia:

Wikipedia said:
Irwin Stone (1907–1984) was an American biochemist, chemical engineer, and author. He was the first to use ascorbic acid in the food processing industry as a preservative, and originated and published the hypothesis that humans require much larger amounts of Vitamin C for optimal health than is necessary to prevent scurvy. […]

Dr. Stone’s research in ascorbic acid continued and led to his interest in the disease, scurvy. By the late 1950’s, Stone had formulated his hypothesis that scurvy was not a dietary disturbance, but a potentially fatal flaw in human genetics that had suppressed an essential part of the mammalian biochemistry and had been misunderstood by nutritionists. He proposed the name hypoascorbemia for the effects of this genetic defect. He proposed that ascorbate was not a vitamin required only in trace amounts, but was required by humans in relatively large daily quantities. He produced four papers, between 1965 and 1967, describing what he considered the true human requirement for ascorbate.[3]

Stone experienced great difficulty in getting his ideas published. However, following his retirement from his position as chemist from the Wallerstein company, in 1971, he worked full time on ascorbate. He published numerous papers and a book, The Healing Factor, in 1972.

Irwin Stone introduced Linus Pauling to Vitamin C and is recognised within orthomolecular medicine as one of its founders.[4] His research provided additional scientific background for the clinical results of megadose ascorbate treatments claimed by his contemporary, Dr Fred R. Klenner.[5]
The Vitamin C Foundation has a large collection of articles and links concerning Vitamin C/ascorbic acid, including the link to the free online version of Dr Stone’s book (_http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/stone/).

Part One of Dr Stone’s book is a discussion of the evolutionary history of earth’s flora and fauna, with a focus on ascorbic acid and its place in the normal functioning of plants and animals. This section closes with a discussion of the daily requirements of ascorbic acid for various mammals, and an extrapolation of this based on body weight to give the daily requirement for human beings.

Part Two presents a discussion of the use of ascorbic acid in treating various diseases including the common cold.

The Florida State University maintains a web gallery showing some fascinating microphotographs of ascorbic acid which can be seen at _http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/vitamins/pages/vitaminc.html.

Links:

The Vitamin C Foundation: _http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/

The Healing Factor by Irwin Stone, free online edition: _http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/stone/

Irwin Stone Wikipedia page: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irwin_Stone

Collagen page on Wikipedia: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collagen

Linus Pauling: the last interview: _http://www.internetwks.com/pauling/lastpinv.html

Doctor Yourself: _http://www.doctoryourself.com



Irwin Stone said:
INTRODUCTION

The purpose of this book is to correct an error in orientation which occurred in 1912, when ascorbic acid, twenty years before its actual discovery and synthesis, was designated as the trace nutrient, vitamin C. Thus, in the discussions in this book the terms "vitamin C" and "ascorbic acid" are identical, although the author prefers to use "ascorbic acid."

Scurvy, in 1912, was considered solely as a dietary disturbance. This hypothesis has been accepted practically unchallenged and has dominated scientific and medical thinking for the past sixty years. The purpose of this vitamin C hypothesis was to produce a rationale for the conquest of frank clinical scurvy. That it did and with much success, using minute doses of vitamin C. Frank clinical scurvy is now a rare disease in the developed countries because the amounts of ascorbic acid in certain foodstuffs are sufficient for its prevention. However, in the elimination of frank clinical scurvy, a more insidious condition, subclinical scurvy, remained; since it was less dramatic, it was glossed over and overlooked. Correction of subclinical scurvy needs more ascorbic acid than occurs naturally in our diet, requiring other non-dietary intakes. Subclinical scurvy is the basis for many of the ills of mankind.

[…]

At some time early in the development of life, certain primitive organisms developed the enzymes needed to manufacture a unique substance that offered many solutions to the multiple biological problems of survival. This compound, ascorbic acid, is a relatively simple one compared to the many other huge, complicated molecules produced by living organisms. Because of its unique properties, however, it is somewhat unstable and transient, a fact that will complicate our later search for this substance.

We now know that ascorbic acid is a carbohydrate derivative containing six carbon atoms, six oxygen atoms, and eight hydrogen atoms and is closely related to the sugar, glucose (see Figure 1). Glucose is of almost universal occurrence in living organisms, where it is used as a prime source of energy. Ascorbic acid is produced enzymatically from this sugar in both plants and animals.

We can surmise that the production of ascorbic acid was an early accomplishment of the life process because of its wide distribution in nearly all present-day living organisms. It is produced in comparatively large amounts in the simplest plants and the most complex; it is synthesized in the most primitive animal species as well as in the most highly organized. Except possibly for a few microorganisms, those species of animals that cannot make their own ascorbic acid are the exceptions and require it in their food if they are to survive. Without it, life cannot exist. Because of its nearly universal presence in both plants and animals we can also assume that its production was well organized before the time when evolving life forms diverged along separate plant and animal lines.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

In nearly all the mammals, ascorbic acid is manufactured in the liver from the blood sugar, glucose. The conversion proceeds stepwise, each step being controlled by a different enzyme. The mutation that occurred in our ancestral monkey destroyed his ability to manufacture the last enzyme in this series -- L-gulonolactone oxidase. This prevented his liver from converting L-gulonolactone into ascorbic acid, which was needed to carry out the various biochemical processes of life. The lack of this enzyme made this animal susceptible to the deadly disease, scurvy. To this day, millions of years later, all the descendants of this mutated animal, including man, have the intermediate enzymes but lack the last one. And that is why man cannot make ascorbic acid in his liver.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

One of the outstanding attributes of ascorbic acid is its lack of toxicity even when given in large doses over long periods of time. This has been recognized since the 1930s, and ascorbic acid can be rated as one of the least toxic substances known of comparable physiological activity. It can be administered in huge doses, intravenously, without registering any serious side effects. Because of human variability and because the human organism has been exposed to such low levels of this essential substance for so long, some usually transient side effects may occur in a small percentage of hypersensitive individuals. This may be evidenced as diarrhea or rashes which clear up on lowering the dosage. In many cases it is possible to avoid these reactions by building up to the desired dosage gradually, which permits the body to become accustomed to these essentially normal mammalian levels. Taking the ascorbic acid with food or before meals often helps.

[…]

There are no large storage depots for ascorbic acid in the body and any excess is rapidly excreted. When saturated, the whole body may only contain 5 grams. This means that the body requires a continuous supply to replenish losses and depletions. The livers of nearly all mammals are constantly making and pouring ascorbic acid into their bloodsteams, but man's liver is unable to do this. He needs a constant, large, outside supply to make up for this genetic defect. When the different organs and tissues are analyzed, it is found that ascorbic acid concentrates in the organs and tissues with high metabolic activity; the adrenal cortex, the pituitary gland, the brain, the ovaries, the eyes, and other vital tissues. Any form of biochemical stress or physical trauma will cause a precipitous drop in the ascorbic acid levels of the body in general, or locally in the affected organs or tissues. In animals biochemically equipped to produce their own ascorbic acid, any stressful situation causes them to synthesize more and greater amounts to replace that destroyed or utilized in combating the stresses.
In relation to the last paragraph, Linus Pauling in his last interview, states the following:

Linus Pauling said:
Questioner: What do you feel about the major criticism that anything over 100mg of vitamin C is a waste of money and goes down the drain because it's eliminated by the body?

Linus Pauling: The evidence shows that this is just not true. I myself, twenty years ago or more, read this statement, probably made by Fred Stare, professor then at Harvard School of Public Health, and I decided to check. I was taking 10 grams per day of vitamin C. I collected my urine for 24 hours and analyzed it myself for the vitamin C content. Instead of nearly 10,000mg being eliminated in the urine, 9850mg, I found only 1,500mg, 15 per cent of the dose that I was taking during this trial, so the statement just is not true. Of course, some of the ingested ascorbate remains in the intestinal contents and doesn't get into the blood stream. It may be as much as a third. Some evidence indicates that perhaps as much as a third remains in the intestinal contents. Well, this does good, protecting the lower bowel against cancer by destroying carcinogens that are present in the fecal material and also does good because of the laxative effect of bringing water into the bowel so that the volume of the waste material is larger. There's also a smaller surface area which helps speed up the process of elimination of this material. The rest of it, two thirds perhaps 6.5 grams when I was taking 10 grams a day, gets into the blood stream but only 1.5 grams is eliminated in the urine. So we can ask what happens to the other 5 grams? The answer I'm sure, in fact we have direct experimental evidence for it, is that vitamin C is rapidly converted into other substances, oxidation products and these other substances, these oxidation products have been shown to have greater value against cancer than vitamin C itself. So if you take large doses of vitamin C you produce large amounts of these other substances, the value of which is still under investigation. We have been studying it for fifteen years.
However, ascorbic acid/vitamin C is also a chelating agent. Perhaps the missing vitamin C has carried toxins out of the body, and because of this has not shown up in Pauling’s urinary analysis?

Irwin Stone said:
One of the most important biochemical functions of ascorbic acid in the body's chemistry is the synthesis, formation, and maintenance of a proteinlike substance called collagen. Collagen cannot be formed without ascorbic acid, which is absolutely essential to collagen production by the body. Collagen is the body's most important structural substance. It is the ground substance, or cement, that supports and holds the tissues and organs together. It is the substance in the bones that provides the toughness and flexibility and prevents brittleness. Without it the body would just disintegrate or dissolve away. It comprises about one-third of the body's total weight of protein and is the most extensive tissue system. it is the substance that strengthens the arteries and veins, supports the muscles, toughens the ligaments and bones, supplies the scar tissue for healing wounds and keeps the youthful skin tissues soft, firm, supple and wrinkle free. When ascorbic acid is lacking, it is the disturbance in collagen formation that causes the fearful effects of scurvy -- the brittle bones that fracture on the slightest impact, the weakened arteries that rupture and hemorrhage, the incapacitating muscle weakness, the affected joints that are too painful to move, the teeth that fall out, and the wounds and sores that never heal. Suboptimal amounts of ascorbic acid over prolonged periods during the early and middle years, by its effect of producing poor quality collagen, may be the factor in later life that causes the high incidence of arthritis and joint diseases, broken hips, the heart and vascular diseases that cause sudden death, and the strokes that bring on senility. Collagen is intimately connected with the entire aging process.
Wikipedia said:
Collagen is the main protein of connective tissue in animals and the most abundant protein in mammals,[1] making up about 25% to 35% of the whole-body protein content. It is naturally found exclusively in metazoa, including sponges. [2] In muscle tissue it serves as a major component of endomysium. Collagen constitutes 1% to 2% of muscle tissue, and accounts for 6% of the weight of strong, tendinous muscles.[3] The gelatin used in food and industry is derived from the partial hydrolysis of collagen.

[…]

Collagen has great tensile strength, and is the main component of fascia, cartilage, ligaments, tendons, bone and skin. Along with soft keratin, it is responsible for skin strength and elasticity, and its degradation leads to wrinkles that accompany aging. It strengthens blood vessels and plays a role in tissue development. It is present in the cornea and lens of the eye in crystalline form. It is also used in cosmetic surgery and burns surgery.

[…]

Manufacturers of collagen-based dietary supplements claim that their products can improve skin and fingernail quality as well as joint health. However, mainstream scientific research has not shown strong evidence to support these claims. Individuals with problems in these areas are more likely to be suffering from some other underlying condition (such as normal aging, dry skin, arthritis etc.) rather than just a protein deficiency.

[…]

Collagen is also sold commercially as a joint mobility supplement[7]. Because proteins are broken down into amino acids before absorption, there is no reason for orally ingested collagen to affect connective tissue in the body, except through the effect of individual amino acid supplementation.
Irwin Stone said:
Ascorbic acid is a potent detoxicant which counteracts and neutralizes the harmful effects of many poisons in the body. It will combat various inorganic poisons, such as mercury and arsenic, and it neutralizes the bad reactions of many organic poisons, drugs, and bacterial and animal toxins. Ascorbic acid detoxifies carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide, and carcinogens, so it is the only immediate protection we have against the bad effects of air pollution and smoking. It has also been shown that ascorbic acid increases the therapeutic effect of different drugs and medicines by making them more effective. Thus, less of a drug is required if it is taken in combination with large amounts of ascorbic acid. Diabetics could reduce their insulin requirements if this were practiced. Even an aspirin should be accompanied by a large does of ascorbic acid to heighten its analgesic effect and lessen its toxic action on the body.

Ascorbic acid in large doses is a good nontoxic diuretic. A diuretic is a substance that stimulates the excretion of urine. Thus, ascorbic acid at proper dosage levels will drain waterlogged tissues and reduce accumulated water in the body in heart and kidney diseases.

The antiseptic and bactericidal qualities of ascorbic acid have long been known. At relatively low levels it will inhibit the growth of bacteria and at slightly higher amounts it will kill them. The bacteria causing tuberculosis is particularly sensitive to the lethal action of ascorbic acid.

One of the body's defenses against bacterial infections is the mobilization of white blood cells into the affected tissues. The white blood cells then devour and digest the invading bacteria. This process is known as phagocytosis and is controlled by ascorbic acid. The number of bacteria that each white blood cell digests is directly related to the ascorbic acid content of the blood. This is one of the reasons why a lack of ascorbic acid in the body produces lowered resistance to infectious diseases.

Ascorbic acid is also a potent and nonspecific virucide. It has the power to inactivate and destroy the infectivity of a wide variety of disease-producing viruses including poliomyelitis, herpes, vaccinia, foot-and-mouth disease, and rabies. It only does this, however, at relatively high doses, not a "vitamin" level.

There is a relationship between ascorbic acid and the production and maintenance in the body of the adrenal cortical hormones. The adrenal gland, where this hormone is produced, also happens to be the tissue where the highest concentration of ascorbic acid is found.

In 1969 it was reported that laboratory tests conducted at the National Cancer Institute showed that ascorbic acid was lethal to certain cancer cells and harmless to normal tissue. This might be the long awaited breakthrough in cancer therapy. Intensive study and research should immediately be concentrated to investigate these possibilities.

This has been a brief and incomplete summary of ascorbic acid's many biochemical functions and of its vital importance in keeping the body in good operating condition. Even this incomplete review should not only give the reader an idea of the many important functions of ascorbic acid, but also leave the very distinct impression that ascorbic acid can be of much greater use to man than as a mere prevention of clinical symptoms of scurvy.
There is a lot more information in Stone’s book. Here’s the chapter list:

Irwin stone said:
Part I: Our Deadly Inheritance

1. The Beginnings of Life

2. From Fishes to Mammals

3. Our Ancestral Primate

4. The Evolution of Man

5. From Prehistory to the Eighteenth Century

6. The Nineteenth and Early Twentieth Centuries

7. Finding the Elusive Molecule

8. The Genetic Approach

9. Some Effects of Ascorbic Acid

10. "Correcting" Nature


Part II: Pathways to Research

11. Breaking the "Vitamin" Barrier

12. The Common Cold

13. Viral Infection

14. Bacterial Infection

15. Cancer

16. The Heart, Vascular System, and Strokes

17. Arthritis and Rheumatism

18. Aging

19. Allergies, Asthma, and Hay Fever

20. Eye Conditions

21. Ulcers

22. Kidneys and Bladder

23. Diabetes and Hypoglycemia

24. Chemical Stresses -- Poisons, Toxins

25. Physical Stresses

26. Pollution and Smoker's Scurvy

27. Wounds, Bone Fractures, and Shock

28. Pregnancy

29. Mental Disease

30. The Future
According to the Doctor Yourself website (_http://www.doctoryourself.com), Frederick R. Klenner, M.D., in the 1940s, cured the following conditions with very large doses of ascorbic acid:

Pneumonia
Encephalitis
Herpes Zoster (shingles)
Herpes Simplex
Mononucleosis
Pancreatitis
Hepatitis
Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever
Bladder Infection
Alcoholism
Arthritis
Some Cancers
Leukemia
Atherosclerosis
Ruptured Intervertebral Disc
High Cholesterol
Corneal Ulcer
Diabetes
Glaucoma
Schizophrenia
Burns and secondary infections
Heat Stroke
Radiation Burns
Heavy Metal Poisoning (Mercury, Lead)
Venomous Bites (insects, snakes)
Multiple Sclerosis
Chronic Fatigue
Complications of Surgery

Dr. Klenner gave up to 300,000 milligrams (mg) per day. Generally, he gave 350 to 700 mg per kilogram body weight per day.
 

Joe

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#2
I have first hand knowledge of a case where a person with pancreatitis was able to take between 40 and 50grams a day before the limit (laxative effect) was reached, during the acute phase of the illness. This corresponded to about 700mg per kilo of body weight. This was in contrast to later on when only 5 or 6 grams would provoke laxative effect. So clearly all those extra grams of ascorbic acid were being used in some way by the body.
 

aragorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
#3
Where do you guys buy your ascorbic acid?

I've been searching for a long time now in all kinds of stores for cheap and large quantities of ascorbic acid powder without success. The natural health stores and likes only provide expensive (e.g. Solgar) small can of vitamin C. I mean, ascorbic acid isn't supposed to cost ca 20euros for 2dl, or is it?

Maybe I should try the animal food shops...
 

mada85

The Living Force
#4
Aragorn said:
Where do you guys buy your ascorbic acid?

I've been searching for a long time now in all kinds of stores for cheap and large quantities of ascorbic acid powder without success. The natural health stores and likes only provide expensive (e.g. Solgar) small can of vitamin C. I mean, ascorbic acid isn't supposed to cost ca 20euros for 2dl, or is it?

Maybe I should try the animal food shops...
In the UK, Holland and Barrett sell ascorbic acid in powder form : _http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/product_detail.asp?pid=119&prodid=490 : £14.99 (UK pounds) for 567 grams. They will ship to European countries.
 
#5
Aragorn said:
Where do you guys buy your ascorbic acid?
In the US, I buy from this company:
_http://www.vitaglo.com/792.html
The price has gone up again; now it is three pounds (1.3 kg) for $34.55 (about 24 Euros). So that's about 18.5 Euros per kilo.
Here is their shipping info page: _http://www.vitaglo.com/info.html

Hope this is helpful.
 

aragorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
#6
curious_richard said:
Aragorn said:
Where do you guys buy your ascorbic acid?
In the US, I buy from this company:
_http://www.vitaglo.com/792.html
The price has gone up again; now it is three pounds (1.3 kg) for $34.55 (about 24 Euros). So that's about 18.5 Euros per kilo.
Here is their shipping info page: _http://www.vitaglo.com/info.html

Hope this is helpful.
Wow! That is a whole lot cheaper. I've been totally looking in wrong places for this, I guess. Have to buy outside Finland, that's for sure.

Thank you also 'mada85' for you answer, I'll check it out too.
 

hukka

The Force is Strong With This One
#7
Aragorn said:
Where do you guys buy your ascorbic acid?

I've been searching for a long time now in all kinds of stores for cheap and large quantities of ascorbic acid powder without success. The natural health stores and likes only provide expensive (e.g. Solgar) small can of vitamin C. I mean, ascorbic acid isn't supposed to cost ca 20euros for 2dl, or is it?

Maybe I should try the animal food shops...
Try _http://www.iherb.com - I just placed an order for 450g of vitamin C powder for a total of about 17 euros including shipping. I'm in Finland too and have succesfully ordered vitamin D from them previously.

(First post! I'll try to whip up an introductory post soon.)
 

SeekinTruth

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#10
Aragorn said:
Where do you guys buy your ascorbic acid?
Another option in the US may be _www.drclarkstore.com

They have 1 pound (about 0.45 Kg) of Vitamin C powder as ascorbic acid for US $29.95. DrClarkStore merged with Self Health Resource Center a couple of years ago - they both follow Dr. Hulda Clark's findings and protocols. They claim that it is totally pure and no pollutants are introduced during the manufacturing process - and the powder is supposed to be the purest. They also have 1 gm capsules for US $13.95 for 100 capsules. The pound of powder does come in a white plastic containers though, so I don't know if there is some reaction with the plasticizers. It's just another choice.

Strictly from a price point of view the _vitaglo_ site given by curios_richard seems to be by far the best deal. FWIW.
 

aragorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
#12
hukka said:
Aragorn said:
Where do you guys buy your ascorbic acid?

I've been searching for a long time now in all kinds of stores for cheap and large quantities of ascorbic acid powder without success. The natural health stores and likes only provide expensive (e.g. Solgar) small can of vitamin C. I mean, ascorbic acid isn't supposed to cost ca 20euros for 2dl, or is it?

Maybe I should try the animal food shops...
Try _http://www.iherb.com - I just placed an order for 450g of vitamin C powder for a total of about 17 euros including shipping. I'm in Finland too and have succesfully ordered vitamin D from them previously.

(First post! I'll try to whip up an introductory post soon.)
Welcome to the forum 'hukka'! And thanks for the info.

Thanks for all the other links you guys, I'll check out what would be the best solution for me and my family.
 
#13
Had a chronic fatigue for around six months and my doctor said it was all in my head. When I read this thread, I decided to take 1 gram or more of Vitamin Cas supplement and it seems my health really improved. So thank you mada85 for raising this up and all others for the diet, health, detox, etc related threads.
 

Oxajil

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#14
hukka said:
Aragorn said:
Where do you guys buy your ascorbic acid?

I've been searching for a long time now in all kinds of stores for cheap and large quantities of ascorbic acid powder without success. The natural health stores and likes only provide expensive (e.g. Solgar) small can of vitamin C. I mean, ascorbic acid isn't supposed to cost ca 20euros for 2dl, or is it?

Maybe I should try the animal food shops...
Try _http://www.iherb.com - I just placed an order for 450g of vitamin C powder for a total of about 17 euros including shipping. I'm in Finland too and have succesfully ordered vitamin D from them previously.

(First post! I'll try to whip up an introductory post soon.)
Iherb.com is awesome!! It has a LOT of good stuff and the shipping is cheap, I only paid 4,10 euros (6 dollars) for the shipping (to The Netherlands) and I only had to wait ~ a week for it to arrive. :D
(I can't buy from amazon/ebay because they don't ship certain products to Holland.)
 

Kasimir

The Force is Strong With This One
#15
Oxajil said:
Iherb.com is awesome!! It has a LOT of good stuff and the shipping is cheap
I agree although they seem to have logistic problems at the moment. I hope the problems will be sorted out.
 
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