Astral projection

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Jsf

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Sorry to carry on this subject again - but there is some things I still not understand.

I maintain a french site & forum on astral projection and related topics. So, it's essential for me to know if it's beneficial to encourage this technics of body-soul separation.

Because astral projection is practised in many cultures and secret society like Golden Dawn, it did not seem to to me that it is a risky practice.

The main autors on astral projection, Robert Monroe ("INSPECS" in Monroe books look like Cassiopeans... I noticed same expressions... ("us in the future", by exemple)), Sylvan Muldoon, William Buhlman, ... they all claim that astral projection is even safer than to cross a road.


But this gave me a doubt :

All right, MM took a
particular type of Reiki inititation or attumement today, and
I’d like to know, what was the... she had an event occur
during the attunements. I would like to know what this event
was. What this condition was that she experienced.
A: She should be careful not to “spread her self too thin.�
Q: (L) And what does that mean?
A: One does not need to cram learning, “steady as she goes.�
Q: (V) They’re punctually correct, aren’t they? (L) Yes, they
are! So, is that in a sense a caution?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Can you describe what it was that was taking place
with her? Or define it?
A: Soul bilocation.
Q: (L) So, it was not exactly a state, as the Sufis describe?
A: No.
Q: (L) And where did she bilocate to?
A: Not easily explainable.
Q: (L) Was it to another density or dimension? Or parallel
univers or spiritual domain? (T) Norfolk Naval Station?
[Laughter] Destination of bilocation! (L) Was this a beneficial
event for her?
A: No. She has been ripping open the fabric too much.
Q: (V) Do you know what that means? (TM) The fabric of
this dimension? (L) Is T correct? The fabric of this dimension?
A: Close. Each soul has its own patterning, which is held in
place by the three bodies of existence [planchette swirls a few
times] ... “thought center, spirit center and physical center,�
there are specific methodologies for adjusting these, and
travelling into or out of other planes of existence. When one
does not properly utilize these, one tears the fabric of their
trilateral continuum when they seek to travel. This can be very
problematic, and may lead to the soul being unable to
reconnect with the body, thus causing the physical center to
perish!!!
And this reassured me :

Q: (L) Okay, I want to ask about the experience I had the
other night - are you still there?
A: Why do you always ask that, do you expect us to take a
coffee break?
Q: (L) Okay, I had what seemed to be an OBE the other
night. Was I actually having one?
A: Was an "all intensive ooze" of the solar realm.
Q: (L) What? (T) You asked! (F) Well, now THAT'S
completely clear! (L) Sarcasm will get you nowhere, guys!
(T) That's about as clear as ooze! (L) Okay, what is an "all
intensive ooze" of the solar realm?
A: Realms are compartmentalized at graduated levels, like
everything else. The root basis of the study of Astrology is the
"unified entity realm," which relates to the effect that local
cosmic bodies have upon the body and soul of third density
beings in any given locator.
Q: (L) So, what does this mean in terms of what I
experienced? I felt that I was moving in and out of my body
over and over, sort of like doing an exercise.
A: Solar activity occurring when your experience took place
was such that, based on your "solar return," had the effect of
partially separating your soul from your body. Now, just for
fun, why not check your chart for that day, and see if the
aspects were a little more favorable for expiration of the body
potential than usual?
Q: (L) Now that I have been able to play with it a little, will I
experience it again, or can I?
A: Well, it is always experienced at least once in the lifetime
of a human being, but for most people, it occurs at the
conclusion.
Q: [much laughter] (L) You mean I died? Or was this what
people experience when they die?
A: Yes, but you got to come back in time for dinner!
Q: (F) I guess that's mirth! (L) So, that wasn't just an OBE, it
was a separation of the soul from the body? Is that different
from astral projection?
A: No.
Q: (L) Do people who have OBE's experience this?
A: With "astral projection" the consciousness level is not as
intense because of "the silver cord" and the shroud of third
density awareness.
In "Ces mondes qui nous gouvernent" (p.237) (http://pilulerouge.com/ces_mondes.html), Laura described an astral projection while meditating (with doing "zoning"). After, the state and environment of 4D/astral is like thoses I often experienced.

Another experiment of Laura is described in The Wave in a Cass session (950723).

Q: (L) Toren, the first thing on my mind is an experience I had several nights ago. It seemed as though there was some sort of interaction between myself and something "other." Could
you tell me what this experience was?
A: Was eclipsing of the realities.
Q: (L) What is an eclipsing of the realities?
A: It is when energy centers conflict.
Q: (L) What energy centers are conflicting?
A: Thought energy centers.
Q: (L) Whose thoughts?
A: Ahh, we're getting ahead of ourselves, are we not? Thoughts are the basis of all creation. After all, without thought nothing would exist. Now would it?
Q: (L) True.
A: Therefore, energy centers conflicting involve thought patterns. You could refer to it as an intersecting of thought pattern energies.
Q: (L) Could you be a little more explicit.
A: We sense you are leading. The true effort to gain knowledge should always be to be open to any response, any question. Therefore asking to be more specific is assuming that the
answer is not explicit.
Q: (L) Well, it seemed to me that something happened to me that blanked out a period of my experience, and you say this was an eclipsing of energies caused by an intersecting of
thought centers. Now, this intersecting of thought centers, did this occur within my body or within my environment?
A: They are one and the same.
Q: (L) Was this eclipsing of though centers brought on by any of my activities?
A: Well, again we must ask you to slow down in your own perceptions for just a moment, for one sees the truest of answers when one is open to all possible responses and is not
prejudiced. And again, unfortunately we sense a leading in your seeking of answers which indicates prejudice which is perfectly alright, however one would assume that one seeks the
truest of all possible answers and prejudice does not allow that. So, if it would be possible, please try to ask questions that do not lead to any particular type of conclusion.
Q: (L) Can I ask about my specific perceptions of the event?
A: That is what you are already doing. We sense that you desire the truest of all possible answers and if one desires the truest of all possible answers, one must avoid expressing one's
own perceptions to any great degree and simply allow the answers to flow. The best advice to accomplish this is a step-by-step approach - to ask the simplest of questions with the
least amount of prejudice attached.
Q: (L) Alright. I was lying in bed worrying about being able to get to sleep. The next thing I knew, I came to myself feeling that I was being floated off my bed. Was I?
A: No. When you say "I" you are referring to your whole person. There is more than one factor involved with one's being to any particular definition.
Q: (L) Was some part of my being separated from another part of my being?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Was this an attempt to extract my soul or astral body?
A: Attempt is not probably the proper term.
Q: (L) In other words...
A: It is more just an activity taking place. Attempt implies effort rather than the nature present in a conflicting of energies and thought centers.
Q: (L) I also seemed to be aware of several dark, spider-like figures lined up by the side of the bed, was this an accurate impression.
A: Those could be described as specific thought center projections.
Q: (L) I seemed to be fighting and resisting this activity.
A: That was your choice.
Q: (L) Was I successful?
A: Now, we are back to leading again.
Q: (L) Alright, was this the ending of an abduction that had already taken place?
A: Not the proper terminology. It was the conclusion to an event, not necessarily what one would refer to as an abduction, but more what one would refer to as an interaction.
Q: (L) What was the nature of the interaction?
A: The conflicting of energies related to thought center impulses.
Q: (L) Where are these thought centers located?
A: Well, that is difficult to answer because that is assuming that thought centers are located. And, of course this is a concept area in which you are not fully familiar as of yet. So, an
attempt to answer this in any way that would make sense to you would probably not be fruitful. We suggest slowing down and carefully formulating questions.
Q: (L) At what level of density do these thought centers have their primary focus?
A: Thought centers do not have primary focus in any level of density. This is precisely the point. You are not completely familiar with the reality of what thoughts are. We have spoken
to you on many levels and have detailed many areas involving density level, but thoughts are quite a different thing because they pass through all density levels at once. Now, let us ask
you this. Do you not now see how that would be possible?
Q: (L) Yes. But what I am trying to do is identify these conflicting thought centers. If two thought centers, or more, conflict, then my idea would be that they are in opposition.
A: Correct.
Q: (L) And, what I want to know is, was this in opposition to me, or was this an opposition in which I simply was caught in the middle, so to speak.
A: Well, you are drifting away from the true nature of your experience, because you are making suppositions. And we are not trying to scold you, we are merely trying to guide you
and this is not always easy. But, let it be known again that the simplest way for you to gather knowledge on this particular subject matter is to ask the simplest questions without
prejudice.
Q: (L) Okay, you said I wasn't abducted, that an event of some sort occurred. What was the event?
A: We have already described this, but the problem that you are having is that you are assuming that the description we are giving is more complicated than this. It is not.
Q: (L) Did I leave my body?
A: I'm very sorry to tell you that you are drifting again.
Q: (L) Well, I am trying to ask simple questions.
A: The problem is that you are pre-supposing answers. Please limit prejudice.
Q: (L) What is my prejudice, what is my presupposition?
A: Well, just to give you an example: how do you know that you ever "leave" your body? The question is not: do you ever leave your body, its how do you know that you do?
Q: (L) I guess you don't.
A: Let us give you a parallel. If you saw a rainbow in the sky and that rainbow was later no longer visible, would you then say: "Did that rainbow spill onto the mountain?"
Q: (L) I don't get it. No I wouldn't because I would know that the rainbow is the refracting of light on water or ice in the atmosphere.
A: That's what you know. But, then again how do you know that anything you know is, in fact, the true representation of reality?
Q: (L) We don't.
A: The only way to solve this problem when asking about a complicated issue is to ask very simple step-by-step questions without prejudice. In order to do that, one must pause and
reflect, and take one's time, as it were, to formulate the questions carefully in order to make sure that they are very simple, step-by-step questions and not questions containing
prejudice.
Q: (L) Okay, in the experience I felt a paralysis of my body, what caused this paralysis.
A: Yes. Separation of awareness. Which is defined as any point along the pathway where one's awareness becomes so totally focused on one thought sector that all other levels of
awareness are temporarily receded, thereby making it impossible to become aware of one's physical reality along with one's mental reality. This gives the impression of what is referred
to as paralysis. Do you understand?
Q: (L) Yes. And what stimulates this total focus of awareness?
A: An event which sidetracks, temporarily, the mental processes.
Q: (L) And what event can sidetrack the mental processes to this extent?
A: Any number.
Q: (L) In this particular case, what was it?
A: It was an eclipsing of energies caused by conflicting thought centers.
Q: (L) What energies were being eclipsed?
A: Whenever two opposing units of reality intersect, this causes what can be referred to as friction, which, for an immeasurable amount of what you would refer to as time, which is, of
course, non-existent, creates a non- existence, or a stopping of the movements of all functions. This is what we would know as conflict. In between, or through any intersecting,
opposite entities, we always find zero time, zero movement, zero transference, zero exchange. Now think about this. Think about this carefully.
Q: (L) Does this mean that I was, essentially, in a condition of non- existence?
A: Well, non-existence is not really the proper term, but non-fluid existence would be more to the point. Do you understand?
Q: (L) Yes. Frozen, as it were?
A: Frozen, as it were.
Q: (L) Was there any benefit to me from this experience?
A: All experiences have potential for benefit.
Q: (L) Was there any detriment from this experience?
A: All experiences have potential for detriment. Now, do you see the parallels. We are talking about any opposing forces in nature, when they come together, the result can go all the
way to the extreme of one side or all the way to the extreme of the other. Or, it can remain perfectly, symmetrically in balance in the middle, or partially in balance on one side or
another. Therefore all potentials are realized at intersecting points in reality.
Q: (L) Was one of the energies that was intersecting with another energy, the energy that constitutes who and what I am?
A: Well, now, you are drifting again.
Q: (L) Was one of the thought centers me?
A: That is presupposing that you, what is defined as you, or how you define yourself as "me" is of and by itself a thought center.
Q: (L) Well, I am trying to find this out by asking these questions. I am not presupposing here, I am just trying to find out what is going on here!
A: Part of what is you is a thought center but not all of what is you is a thought center. So, therefore it is incorrect to say: "Was one of these conflicting energies or thought centers me?"
Q: (L) Was one of these conflicting thought centers or energies some part of me?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) And was it eclipsed by interacting with a thought center energy that was part of or all of something or someone else?
A: Or, was what happened a conflicting of one energy thought center that was a part of your thought process and another energy thought center that was another part of your thought
process? We will ask you that question and allow you to contemplate.
Q: (L) Was it?
A: We will ask you that question and allow you to contemplate.
Q: (L) Does it ever happen that individuals who perceive or think they perceive themselves to have experienced an "abduction," to actually be interacting with some part of themselves?
A: That would be a very good possibility. Now, before you ask another question, stop and contemplate for a moment: what possibilities does this open up? Is there any limit? And if
there is, what is that? Is it not an area worth exploring?
Q: (L) Okay, help me out here...
A: For example, just one example for you to digest. What if the abduction scenario could take place where your soul projection, in what you perceive as the future, can come back
and abduct your soul projection in what you perceive as the present?
William Buhlman studied the links between abductions and AP : "In “Extraterrestrial Contact and Abduction� the correlation between alien contact and out-of-body travel is clearly made. Results from the authors out-of-body survey and the abduction phenomenon from John Mack's research are compared with astounding similarities" http://www.out-of-body.com/descriptions/Reviews.htm
Q: (L) Oh, dear! Does this happen?
A: This is a question for you to ask yourself and contemplate. (...)
Soul-body separation seems to be natural. Am I on the right track here ?

But is there really a separation or simply slips between different "thought centers" ? This reminds me RV (remote viewing), not astral projection.
 

Snow

Jedi Master
To attach a related question to this topic. I was once told that the experience of jolt(s) by the body or the feeling of falling on your bed during the first moments of sleeping, had to do with your soul trying to release itself from the body (OBE?), but the body then resists too much and therefore your soul "falls" back. Is this true?

Why is it called "falling asleep" anyway? In my language (dutch) we say the same...
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Well, I'm not too sure why you were reassured to read that one of my experiences was very similar to what some people experience when they die...

Anyway, yes, I've had numerous OOBEs, but never have I sought them. I wouldn't, either. That is not the point of spiritual practice. Those types of phenomena are distractions though many people think they are the "evidence" of spiritual development. They are not. Plenty of people have "natural" psychic abilities as a consequence of genetic glitches and it has nothing to do with spirituality.

William Chittick, translator of the works of the great Sufi Shaykh, Ibn al-’Arabi, wrote:

Nowadays most people interested in the spirituality of the East desire the “experience,
 

ark

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Jsf said:
The main autors on astral projection, Robert Monroe ("INSPECS" in Monroe books look like Cassiopeans... I noticed same expressions... ("us in the future", by exemple)), Sylvan Muldoon, William Buhlman, ... they all claim that astral projection is even safer than to cross a road.
Sure, for instance it keeps you "safe" from gaining any real knowledge, one that can seriously disturb your thinking.
 

Niall

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Zunyan said:
Démystifier, comprendre, étudier la projection astrale et l'environnement extracorporel. Centraliser un maximum d'informations sur ce vaste sujet pour permettre au néophyte d'avoir une vue globale du phénomène et
 
J

Jsf

Guest
was once told that the experience of jolt(s) by the body or the feeling of falling on your bed during the first moments of sleeping, had to do with your soul trying to release itself from the body (OBE?), but the body then resists too much and therefore your soul "falls" back. Is this true?
I think it is, because when I try to get out of my body (with some technics), sometimes by exemple only one leg will be dephased and it is only the leg that will have the "shock".
If the astral body is out and wants to quickly return to the physical body, we will often experiment a sort a spasm. It is called "repercussion".
There is a whole chapter on that in Muldoon's book "Projection of the astral body".

Those types of phenomena are distractions though many people think they are the "evidence" of spiritual development. They are not.
I totally agree. A lot of people get out of there body like they go to Disneyland. Also, anyone can have an OBE, nowadays it is not the proof of a high level of spiritual development. But there is some links between AP and yoga (yoga of dreams), also, understanding the astral environment can help us to understand a lot of other things. AP is just a mean to gain some knowledge.

(P) I have a
question... the lady who took the aura pictures the other night
told me that I can astrally project. Is this true?
A: Everyone can.
The great significance of AP, it's that anyone can verify the reality of other dimensions. We can go to some other room or location, check something, and look at it when we are awake in 3D. It gave me the evidence that we are more than a physical body, and that's why I wished to share this possibility to others.

The processus of the separation seems to be natural, and it is said by many that when we sleep, we naturally get out of the body, unconsciously. I have done many projections where I couldn't remind all of the experience. The difficulty is to remain conscious, like in lucid dreaming.

Q: (L) Alright. I was lying in bed worrying about being able to
get to sleep. The next thing I knew, I came to myself feeling
that I was being floated off my bed. Was I?
A: No. When you say "I" you are referring to your whole
person. There is more than one factor involved with one's
being to any particular definition.
Q: (L) Was some part of my being separated from another
part of my being?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Was this an attempt to extract my soul or astral body?
A: Attempt is not probably the proper term.
Q: (L) In other words...
A: It is more just an activity taking place. Attempt implies
effort rather than the nature present in a conflicting of energies
and thought centers.
This helped me to answer people who asked me "4D... astral... ? what's the difference?". There is any. When we get out of our body, we can go to the astral (and 5D, 6D maybe) with a "projected body", and can see genetic/semi physical body of other 4D people. Right ?

The reptoids are operating from astral/4th density
level, but "density" designations are merely relative, and the
notion of only 7 levels is quite misleading. Not all reptoids or
greys are locked into the STS plans, and things aren't as
simple or dismal as the story would suggest. I hope this helps
people understand the drama better!"
There is something I still not understand. When we are projecting ourselves, we can go the an astral plane near earth. (Bruce call it "Real Time Zone") Anyway, astral planes seems to be all around us, and 'with us', like 2D is 'with' 3D (because animals is 2D). So it's just the subjectivity, point of view, that change.
Do the "wave", which is a "Macro-Cosmic Quantum Wave Collapse", inflict a 4D environment to 3D STS minds ? But astral/4D is already 'with' us ! I really wan't grasp this concept. 3D will "overbalance" to the astral because of the powerful action of the wave ?

Finally, if the ideas of such groups as the Golden Dawn appeal to you, you are on the wrong forum.
Such groups as the Golden Dawn do not appeal me at all. I'm just trying to "translate" the concepts of Cass to what the community of "astral projectors" knows. (cf : Astralpulse, Astralsociety, Astraldynamics (Robert Bruce)), Multidimensionnals podcats).

ontinuing with this line of thought, what makes you think you are in a position to offer a 'global view' of this phenomenon to novices?
Global view of this phenomena, only this phenomena. When I began to be interested in astral travel, I didn't find much informations in french, there was only the Bruce's Treatise : http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/rbastral.html

Voila voila ...
 

PopHistorian

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
<< When we get out of our body, we can go to the astral (and 5D, 6D maybe) with a "projected body", and can see genetic/semi physical body of other 4D people. Right ? >>

What I gleaned from reading the C's was that this was not necessarily true. Also, I think you may be confusing the C's ideas of densities, dimensions, realms, realities, etc. They say that the densities are about degrees of awareness that come from accumulating knowledge. Simply traveling astrally does nothing for your awareness of anything more than the astral plane, which, by all the descriptions of I've read in books by the authors you mentioned (such as Astraldynamics), does not correspond to my understanding of what 4D might be like. Maybe you could see a 4D body, but would you even know what it is? In that particular book, I read that it is difficult even to remember that you have achieved astral travel or what you experienced. I think this is because most of our 3D minds aren't evolved enough process the experience, or something like that.

People can also take certain drugs to "open pathways" of sensitivity to other realities, but this is not the same as visiting a higher density, and not recommended, either.

As the C's say, "anyone can" project astrally, suggesting that it is an innate ability of people living even in an STS, low-vibration world. So, if astral traveling gave us significantly greater awareness, then none of us would need to be here learning the lessons of 3D, OSIT. Does this sound reasonable?
 
J

Jsf

Guest
But astral travel cannot help us to understand some lessons of 3D ? Because we don't "escape" of 3D, since we always return to the physical.
Jane Roberts - Seth wrote a book called "Dreams and Projections of Consciousness. And...
Q: (L) Who was Seth, channeled by Jane Roberts?
A: Higher plane earth spirit.
Q: (L) Were the teachings in the Seth material accurate and
was that a good source?
A: Yes but rapidly becoming obsolete as you move toward
new reality.
Do the C's dissuade us from astral traveling ? I don't really understand all your apprehension toward this topic. Many other things can trap ourselves.
Depends on how it is used. Does this sound reasonable?
 

anart

The Living Force
Jsf said:
But astral travel cannot help us to understand some lessons of 3D ? Because we don't "escape" of 3D, since we always return to the physical.

Do the C's dissuade us from astral traveling ? I don't really understand all your apprehension toward this topic. Many other things can trap ourselves.
Depends on how it is used. Does this sound reasonable?
After the numerous responses to you on this topic, I'm finding it very hard to believe that you don't get it yet. If you read the responses and the referenced material, you will understand it very clearly. If you do not, then there is a reason.
 
J

Jsf

Guest
Ok. So dreams, AP, and all that can just not give accurate information and 'real knowledge', that's what you are saying here?

Since AP is a efficient mean to verify by ourselves the reality of other densities (personal experience)- without being a substitute to 3D lessons (isn't a lesson as well?), and can lead to a more open point of view, I don't see where the problem is.

Please can you explain ?
 

anart

The Living Force
again...

Laura said:
Well, I'm not too sure why you were reassured to read that one of my experiences was very similar to what some people experience when they die...

Anyway, yes, I've had numerous OOBEs, but never have I sought them. I wouldn't, either. That is not the point of spiritual practice. Those types of phenomena are distractions though many people think they are the "evidence" of spiritual development. They are not. Plenty of people have "natural" psychic abilities as a consequence of genetic glitches and it has nothing to do with spirituality.

William Chittick, translator of the works of the great Sufi Shaykh, Ibn al-’Arabi, wrote:

Nowadays most people interested in the spirituality of the East desire the “experience,� though they may call what they are after intimate communion with God. Those familiar with the standards and norms of spiritual experience set down by disciplined paths like Sufism are usually appalled at the way Westerners seize upon any apparition from the domain outside of normal consciousness as a manifestation of the “spiritual.� In fact, there are innumerable realms in the unseen world, some of them far more dangerous than the worst jungles of the visible world.
The Shaykh himself said:

So preserve yourselves, my brothers, from the calamities of this place, for distinguishing it is extremely difficult! Souls find it sweet, and then within it they are duped, since they become completely enamored of it.
I would suggest about 30 years of study before ever considering such a thing, much less suggesting that others do it.
and

ark said:
Sure, for instance it keeps you "safe" from gaining any real knowledge, one that can seriously disturb your thinking.
Your say AP verifies the reality of other densities - what verification? These are your perceptions - what verification? How could you possibly know that what you experience is anywhere close to what other realms are? Seriously - consider that question without mentally referring to all that you've read from these 'AP practitioners' - and how much time and energy have you spent pursuing these things that could have been spent working on fusing your magnetic center, your real I - that part of yourself that is no more interested in such parlor tricks than it is in what is on the television tonight. Pay close attention here - this world is filled with distractions to keep us from escaping - you seem to have found a very strong one.
 

Renaissance

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jsf said:
Please can you explain ?
People have already provided a number of meaningful responses for explanation. If you want to understand its time to make your own efforts. Deliberate astral projection apparently doesn't lead to a more open view as your's is quite closed. The responses I've read aren't coming from any apprehension of astral projection but from an understanding of how and why it is a distraction.

You present yourself as wanting to help people but with your lack of awareness on the topic and your advocation of it, your not. You're fueling destruction.

With your huge buffers, it appears likely that relying on others postings here for explanations will not provide all of what you need to overcome your attachments. You need an internal drive that wishes to see the truth in the matter. If you have any such drive you can use it by reading the referenced material in the threads of this topic (as well as much of the other recommended reading provided throughout the forum and cass site). If you have no such drive and want everything handed to you, you're wasting your time here as well as the time of all the other forum members.
 
J

Jsf

Guest
Your say AP verifies the reality of other densities - what verification?
Verification of a number written (or any other target) somewhere like Charles T. Tard did with Miss Z. (http://www.paradigm-sys.com/ctt_articles2.cfm?id=31)

Seriously - consider that question without mentally referring to all that you've read from these 'AP practitioners' - and how much time and energy have you spent pursuing these things that could have been spent working on fusing your magnetic center, your real I
More seriously, how many hours have you spent with houseworks that could have been spent working on fusing your magnetic center, your real I ?
I'm writing a book on "fusing the magnetic center" and psychological mechanisms of dependences with a neuropsychologist at the moment, and working on this topic for the few last years.
So you understand I've any courage to answer this point. Why AP couldn't be more than a simple distraction? Have you thought about this possibility?
Perhaps you think AP = New age (!) = buffers of some sort to explain... explain what ? How AP can calm down the conscience? How AP could give "sweet convictions" or similar stuffs? I don't understand your thoughts here.

In another post you said :
I think an important issue is how much of the asral realm is part of the 'knowable'. Are there some things we can know as we do have an astral body? Perhaps there are some uses, and I think it may be highly probable that there are some useful functions of it. However, this seems a large function of the subconscious as many seem to do this during sleep. When we intentionally project however, we may be trying to go against our natural subconscious messages.
But we don't go at the same places when we are subconsciously projecting ourselves. Conscious projection not seems to be evil or interfering with natural processus of any sort - that is what says the main authors on AP.
And even if it really does, how can we know ? Who experienced AP and says that, later ? Why AP could not be a source of knowledge, if we stay critical ?

If you have any such drive you can use it by reading the referenced material in the threads of this topic (as well as much of the other recommended reading provided throughout the forum and cass site). If you have no such drive and want everything handed to you, you're wasting your time here as well as the time of all the other forum members.
I find it pretty condescending, you're obviously right and discussion is impossible.
Thank you for distracting me, Shane & Anart :) (just kidding)

""You often think in a very naive way," he (Gurdjieff) said. "You already think you can do. To get rid of this conviction is more difficult than anything else for a man."
(just for info) Gurdjieff talked about AP here, I don't have this document so I cannot tell more : 1975 Gurdjieff, G. I. Views from the real world: Early talks of G.I. Gurdjieff. E.P. Dutton, New York.
 

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Jsf said:
Your say AP verifies the reality of other densities - what verification?
Verification of a number written (or any other target) somewhere like Charles T. Tard did with Miss Z. (http://www.paradigm-sys.com/ctt_articles2.cfm?id=31)
You apparently didn't read the referenced report very well. Note that Tart says: "in some OOB experiences the person reports accurate information about the distant localities he seemed to be at, and such information would apparently have to have been acquired by some form of extrasensory perception". This has nothing to do with "reality of other densities," much less verifying them.

Further, at the end, Tart points out: "It is important to note that Miss Z's psychophysiological state during the OOB experiences was not at all what one would predict from reading various occult works on OOB experiences or "astral projections", or from accounts of OOB experiences reported in conjunction with serious illnesses or accidents. "

This was certainly an atypical case with a special feature stated right at the beginning:

Psychologically, it is extremely difficult to describe Miss Z. My informal observations of her over a period of several months (undoubtedly distorted by the fact that one can never describe one's friends objectively) resulted in a picture of a person who in some ways was quite mature and insightful, and in other ways so extremely disturbed psychologically that at times, when she lost control, she could possibly be diagnosed as schizophrenic.
For all we know, everything she said was a product of a schizophrenic imagination.

Jsf said:
Seriously - consider that question without mentally referring to all that you've read from these 'AP practitioners' - and how much time and energy have you spent pursuing these things that could have been spent working on fusing your magnetic center, your real I
More seriously, how many hours have you spent with houseworks that could have been spent working on fusing your magnetic center, your real I ?
If you knew anything about fusing the magnetic center, you would know that time spent doing housework is not excluded from the process. In fact, as the saying goes: before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water; after enlightenment: chop wood, carry water.

As Gurdjieff and Mouravieff both point out, real life and its attendant duties is the best possible environment for doing the Work.


Jsf said:
I'm writing a book on "fusing the magnetic center" and psychological mechanisms of dependences with a neuropsychologist at the moment, and working on this topic for the few last years.
Perhaps we need to know the name of this neuropsychologist as well as your own name so as to verify what you are saying. Anybody can claim anything behind an internet identity, you know. For all we know, you could be a 13 year old geek who divides his time between pretending to be an occultist and surfing porn sites.

Jsf said:
So you understand I've any courage to answer this point. Why AP couldn't be more than a simple distraction? Have you thought about this possibility?
Perhaps you think AP = New age (!) = buffers of some sort to explain... explain what ? How AP can calm down the conscience? How AP could give "sweet convictions" or similar stuffs? I don't understand your thoughts here.
Which gives evidence of knowing little about the Work or the Fusing of the Magnetic Center.

Jsf said:
In another post you said :
I think an important issue is how much of the asral realm is part of the 'knowable'. Are there some things we can know as we do have an astral body? Perhaps there are some uses, and I think it may be highly probable that there are some useful functions of it. However, this seems a large function of the subconscious as many seem to do this during sleep. When we intentionally project however, we may be trying to go against our natural subconscious messages.
But we don't go at the same places when we are subconsciously projecting ourselves. Conscious projection not seems to be evil or interfering with natural processus of any sort - that is what says the main authors on AP.
And even if it really does, how can we know ? Who experienced AP and says that, later ? Why AP could not be a source of knowledge, if we stay critical ?
And notice what Tart says above about the "main authors" of tomes on the subject - that the case you cited was quite atypical.

Based on years of research, I have tentatively concluded that the "main authors" of such books are misguided at best, deliberate deceivers at worst.

Jsf said:
If you have any such drive you can use it by reading the referenced material in the threads of this topic (as well as much of the other recommended reading provided throughout the forum and cass site). If you have no such drive and want everything handed to you, you're wasting your time here as well as the time of all the other forum members.
I find it pretty condescending, you're obviously right and discussion is impossible.
Thank you for distracting me, Shane & Anart :) (just kidding)
No, you weren't just kidding. Nobody is being condescending except you. You have come with a full cup, expecting that everyone here will acknowledge your authority or, at least, confirm your assumptions. This happened with people who came to consult the Cs on many occasions. One particularly memorable visitor reminds me of you on this subject. At the end of the session, where she was so full of assumptions she could not hear anything else, the following exchange occurred:

Q: (L) Any other questions? (RC) I'm not going to ask because they didn't really answer what I wanted to hear.
Jsf said:
""You often think in a very naive way," he (Gurdjieff) said. "You already think you can do. To get rid of this conviction is more difficult than anything else for a man."
(just for info) Gurdjieff talked about AP here, I don't have this document so I cannot tell more : 1975 Gurdjieff, G. I. Views from the real world: Early talks of G.I. Gurdjieff. E.P. Dutton, New York.
Just for info, Gurdjieff is NOT talking about Astral Projection in the referenced quote. I'll help you out since this very passage is currently part of the QFS study:

Gurdjieff said:
"You often think in a very naive way," he said. "You already think you can
do. To get rid of this conviction is more difficult than anything else for a
man.

"You do not understand all the complexity of your organization and you do
not realize that every effort, in addition to the results desired, even if
it gives these, gives thousands of unexpected and often undesirable results,
and the chief thing that you forget is that you are not beginning from the
beginning with a nice clean, new machine.

"There stand behind you many years of a wrong and stupid life, of indulgence
in every kind of weakness, of shutting your eyes to your own errors, of
striving to avoid all unpleasant truths, of constant lying to yourselves, of
self-justification, of blaming others, and so on, and so on.

"All this cannot help affecting the machine. The machine is dirty, in places
it is rusty, and in some places artificial appliances have been formed, the
necessity for which has been created by its own wrong way of working.

"These artificial appliances will now interfere very much with all your
good intentions.

"They are called 'buffers.'

" 'Buffer' is a term which requires special explanation. We know what
buffers on railway carriages are. They are the contrivances which lessen the
shock when carriages or trucks strike one another. If there were no buffers
the shock of one carriage against another would be very unpleasant and
dangerous. Buffers soften the results of these shocks and render them
unnoticeable and imperceptible.

"Exactly the same appliances are to be found within man. They are created,
not by nature but by man himself, although involuntarily. The cause of their
appearance is the existence in man of many contradictions; contradictions of
opinions, feelings, sympathies, words, and actions. [...]

"'Buffers' are created slowly and gradually. Very many 'buffers' are
created artificially through 'education.' Others are created under the
hypnotic influence of all surrounding life.

"A man is surrounded by people who live, speak, think, and feel by means of
'buffers.' Imitating them in their opinions, actions, and words, a man
involuntarily creates similar 'buffers' in himself.

'Buffers' make a man's life more easy. It is very hard to live without
'buffers.' But they keep man from the possibility of inner development
because 'buffers' are made to lessen shocks and it is only shocks that can
lead a man out of the state in which he lives, that is, waken him. 'Buffers'
lull a man to sleep, give him the agreeable and peaceful sensation that all
will be well, that no contradictions exist and that he can sleep in peace.

'Buffers' are appliances by means of -which a man can always be in the
right. 'Buffers' help a man not to feel his conscience.
You have misquoted, quoted out of context, referenced work that does not "prove your point," but in fact, does the exact opposite.

Either you are a deliberate fraud, or you are simply misguided. If it is the latter, we might be able to help you. If it is the former -well, time will tell.
 
Reread the responses so far with an open mind. Astral projection doesn't offer 3D lessons, which is what you need to be getting on with instead of getting caught by a simple trick anyone can do. Without the suficcient information (knowledge protects) you are in someone elses territory where you don't know the rules.
Read the Wave series and contemplate. Do you really want to keep on doing this? If the answer is still yes, then you haven't paid enough attention.

As for your question:

Jsf said:
But we don't go at the same places when we are subconsciously projecting ourselves. Conscious projection not seems to be evil or interfering with natural processus of any sort - that is what says the main authors on AP.
And even if it really does, how can we know ? Who experienced AP and says that, later ? Why AP could not be a source of knowledge, if we stay critical ?
I experienced AP when I was about 14 years old, but luckily didn't get trapped by it. I recognized it for what it was and decided never to go back consciously, because I wasn't in charge. Later with the help of the Wave series, I have realized that we aren't in charge ever, but serving ourselves on a silver plate, which AP seems to be, definitely isn't the answer.
 
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