Jedi Council Member
This thread is for the discussion of astrology and sharing related resources.

The topic is vast (the STARS!) so there are many methods, systems, interpretations, how does one know if they are correct?

I will post a few links and articles that I find helpful in coming to grips with the nature of the beast,

e.g. Why is precession important and what exactly is it?

How does the Vernal Point define the Zodiac?

What constellations exist north and south of the Path of the Ecliptic?

Is it only the Zodiac we consider when studying astrology? (The 12 signs commonly referred to as Aries - Pisces)

What do sidereal, tropical and draconic charts demonstrate?

What are the house systems based on and how are they calculated?

What of the Labors of Hercules and Esoteric Astrology?

Some questions for starters....

The Zodiac: Sidereal Vs. Tropical

(originally published in The Mountain Astrologer, 2001)

by Bruce Scofield

Critics of astrology often argue that "astrologers," a loosely defined group that includes dabblers, serious students, and practicing astrologers, are uniformed in regard to the existence of two zodiacs. They may be right about the first group, but certainly not about the second and third. For the past 40 years, at least, most serious astrology books have drawn attention to the tropical-sidereal debate when the topic of the zodiac is discussed. There is no excuse for anyone who considers themselves an "astrologer" today to be ignorant of the existence of this complex issue. However, exactly what are the differences between each zodiac, expecially in regard to symbolic delineation purposes, is a topic that has not been adequately addressed. And so we are still left with a deep and unresolved controversy that haunts our field of study.

The great astrologer Johannes Kepler had a solution to this problem - he basically abandoned the zodiac and built his astrological system around the aspects between the planets. He thought that the zodiac itself was merely a human geometry exercise and primarily served to aid the memory of astrologers as they computed aspects in their heads. To the argument that the zodiac reflects the cycle of the seasons he said "there is no experiment that proves that the twelve signs are divided up into various qualities - especially in view of the fact that in the other (i.e. southern) temperate zone those signs that make us warm would have to be considered cold, and visa versa." (1) Another early scientific astrologer, John Goad, followed Kepler in this regard. In the late 17th century he published a massive study of astro-meteorology in which signs of the zodiac were basically ignored. But the tradition of the tropical zodiac persisted and Kepler's reforms were forgotten.

In the late 60's I discovered that there was a movement in Western astrology that was concerned with reinstating the sidereal zodiac. The Irish astrologer Cyril Fagan began the modern "Siderealist" tradition in the late 1940's with a number of publications that argued strongly for the role of fixed stars in the establishment of the zodiacal framework. He attracted a small group of articulate followers that included Brig. R.C. Firebrace, Donald Bradley, and Rupert Gleadow, all of whom died in 1974, four years after Fagan's death. Bradley (a.k.a. Garth Allen) was a serious researcher who published a number of scientific studies of astrology which proved to his satisfaction that the fixed stars Aldebaran and Antares were positioned at 15 degrees of Taurus and Scorpio, respectively. This put the fixed star Spica at 29 degrees of Virgo. Stars that are said to anchor the sidereal zodiac are called fiducial stars.(2)

Probably the best astrology magazine of the time (and still so today) "American Astrology," had long supported sidereal astrology and frequently ran articles by leading siderealists. As a reader I was intrigued. So I looked into this branch of astrology, reading Fagan, Gleadow, and then tackling Donald Bradley's book on solar and lunar returns. I went right to work; hand-calculating solar returns, quarterly-returns, and demi-returns in both the tropical and sidereal zodiac. Bradley's methodology didn't involve any sign interpretation, it was based primarily on the angularity of planets at the time of the return. So the truth was you really didn't need to convert from the tropical zodiac to the sidereal zodiac, you just needed to account for precession. One thing I found from doing all these returns in both zodiacs was that they both worked - but not necessarily at the same time. I closely followed a series of lunar returns in both zodiacs for several years. Most of the time the tropical zodiac return seemed to be more descriptive of events than the sidereal. But every once in a while, it was the sidereal that clearly symbolized the events of the time. The confusion deepened.

A few years later, at around 11 PM, I ran into to the late A.H. Blackwell, a well-known siderealist, while he was speed-walking a tight arc around Rob Hand's house. Blackwell, who resembled Groucho Marx in some ways, was circuiting the house about every 20 seconds when I caught up to him. We quickly became friends. A.H., as he was known to many, thought of himself as having a stellium in Libra, in the sidereal zodiac, that is. This stellium was in tropical Scorpio, however. Although I strained by brain in trying, I could never see anything remotely Libran in him. A.H's unfortunate and untimely end by cancer was preceded by events like a family member's suicide and very serious martial woes. The battle over his legacy continues to this day. I still can't see any Libra, as I undertand its symbolism, here.

Around this same time I also began to explore what was then called Hindu astrology. We all know that this astrological system (Vedic) uses one or another version of the sidereal zodiac, the slight differences between them being measured by what is called the ayanamsha, the gap between the tropical and sidereal zodiac. The twelve sidereal-based zodiacal signs (rasis) used in this system are not particularly important overall, and they serve more as a background reference plane for planets than as a matrix for personality distinctions. The houses are important, however, but house boundaries between planets will remain roughly constant in a timed birth chart no matter which zodiac is employed. After reading a number of texts on the subject it became apparent to me that Hindu astrology was a tradition that was not concerned with extracting psychological insights from birth charts, it was more event-oriented.

What's really going on here?

Given the above, that both Western and Eastern advocates of the sidereal zodiac did not display any brilliance in the subtleties and dynamics of human personality, I moved on to a study of Dane Rudhyar's ideas on astrology. I was fortunate in even getting to hear him speak in person a year or two before he died. In my opinion, Rudhyar remains the most important astrologer of the 20th century. He had something intelligent to say on just about every issue in astrology, including the sidereal-tropical problem. Rudhyar wrote that the sidereal zodiac, the zodiac of constellations, was a product of the myth-making faculty of the human psyche. These constellations, groupings of stars, are a remnant of an earlier age that saw the rise of agriculture, but they are not relevant to modern life. He felt it was unfortunate that both zodiacs use the same names for their 12-fold division of the yearly circle, and he regarded the tropical zodiac as being the proper framework on which to assess the evolution of mankind. Further, he thought the so-called precession of the zodiac should be viewed in an entirely different way - the constellations should be conceived as moving forward through the zodiac, just as the planets do. For example, today the constellation Pisces could be said to be advancing through the sign Aries.(3)

For many years I asked "why is the notion persist that the sidereal signs of the zodiac actually work separately from those of the tropical zodiac?" My answer has to do with my insight that most people are not able to think clearly or cleanly about astrological typology, i.e. personality differences. On the other hand, I figured that any astrological system could survive as long as it delivered some goods - i.e. working forecasting methodologies which have nothing to do with signs. Here's what I mean in more detail. Consider studies, conducted by skeptical enquirers, in which a group of students are given the same personality delineation and are independently asked to comment on how accurate it is. In general, most report that much of the delineation is true for them. The students, like 99% of the population, have no training in self-knowledge, so they don't really know how to think about themselves and critically analyze an alleged self-description. There are other variations of this loaded anti-astrology experiment that also point to the broad-based lack of psychological insight in our population. (In fact, if anything, that's what these studies really prove, contrary to skeptic's claims that they disprove astrology.) Another observation of mine is that many people who are good at technical astrology are generally not as strong in handling personality delineations, and vice versa. Which relates to the fact that the people I met who were into sidereal astrology were very technical astrologers. So for years I used what I perceived to be a general lack of self-knowledge and penetrating psychological insight among siderealists as a convenient rationale for explaining how the tropical-sidereal debate could go on for so long.

Today I still think most people don't know how to look at themselves in a mirror - so to speak. And I also think that these people should not be allowed to participate in any astrological study that tests the ability to slice personality into thin sections - like the tropical-sidereal debate. So how do we proceed? There are undoubtedly a reasonable number of leading astrologers, some well-known, others not, who have excellent insight into the human condition. It's among this group, if such a group can be sorted out properly, that some kind of study pitting the two zodiacs against each other might be conducted. Oh my, does this smack of elitism! (Then again, not everyone can play the guitar like Hendrix.) Interestingly, among some in the field of astrology, the issue is already settled. I'll bet you can find astrologers who say they know exactly what the difference between the two zodiacs is. I would wonder about these claims - are they basically pushing their agenda by sheer bluff like some priest preaching moral laws based entirely on ancient writings? Who could possibly know with any certainty that the sidereal zodiac is a code for spiritual development or that the tropical zodiac is the key to only that which happens to us on Earth? Does the sidereal zodiac work better for gurus than the tropical? Should we only use the tropical zodiac on the mentally disabled? If I take LSD and raise my consciousness to a "spiritual" level, will I begin to respond to the sidereal zodiac? This is an experiment that I've been meaning to conduct for some time.

Well, I still don't have any authorative word on this thorny subject, thank Uranus. In general though, I agree with Dane Rudhyar's thoughts on the subject. But there are also the studies that have been done. Donald Bradley's work shouldn't be ignored, and it supports a fixed-star oriented kind of astrological influence. Precession correction seems to work sometimes in return charts, for me at least. Rob Hand long ago suggested that precession correction might be applied to transits also. But precession correction is one thing, a separate sidereal zodiac with delineations for the 12 signs closely resembling those for the tropical zodiac (and using the same names) is a much bigger problem, however solvable on an individual basis through the magic of Mercury and Neptune the case may be. Personally, I suppose I can afford to let this side of the problem slide and get on with my life. My natal Sun is in late Cancer, so I'm a Cancer no matter which way you look at it.


1. Negus, Ken, trans. Kepler's Astrology Excerpts. Princeton, NJ: Eucopia. 1987, p.11.

2. See Fagan, Cyril. Astrological Origins. St. Paul, MN: Llewellyn Publications. 1971, and The Solunars Handbook. Tucson, AZ: Clancy Publications. 1970. Also see Gleadow, Rupert. The Origin of the Zodiac. New York: Castle Books, 1968.

3. See Rudhyar, Dane. Birth Patterns for a New Humanity. The Netherlands: Servire-Wassenaar. 1969. pp. 85 ff. (note: this book was later reprinted under the title "Astrological Timing.")

Here is a second and in my opinion better rendition of the issue
Lesson 2:
The Two Zodiacs -
The Great
Sidereal vs. Tropical Debate

by Vaughn Paul Manley, MA
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Copyright 2003. All Rights Reserved.

The Two Zodiacs – The Great Sidereal vs. Tropical Debate
It’s important to clearly understand the difference between the two zodiacs, the Vedic/Sidereal and the Western/Tropical, and their perspective places in the world of astrology. Without this understanding it’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking one system is superior or inferior to the other and disregard their relative strengths.

The Two Zodiacs
So why two zodiacs anyway? Isn’t one enough? After all, one sky seems to have worked out quite well - thank you very much. God made no mistakes there. One zodiac belt, about 16 degrees wide, with the 12 zodiac signs ranging from Aries to Pisces rising in the eastern horizon - no problems there. It’s just astronomical fact. The stars shine equally on everyone, whether they’re standing in New Delhi or downtown L.A., so why one “Sidereal” zodiac popular in the East and one “Tropical” zodiac popular in the West?

It’s important to realize that both zodiacs are exactly the same in the sense that there are 12 zodiac signs progressing from Aries to Pisces. The elements – fire, earth, air, water; qualities – cardinal, fixed and mutable; and general characteristics associated with each sign are basically the same in both systems. Up until the last century or so, before the discoveries of Uranus, Neptune, Pluto and Chiron, the classical rulerships of the signs were used in both systems.

The classical sign rulerships are as follows: Mars rules Aries and Scorpio, Venus rules Taurus and Libra, Mercury rules Gemini and Virgo, the Moon rules Cancer, the Sun rules Leo, Jupiter rules Sagittarius and Pisces, and Saturn rules Capricorn and Aquarius.

The difference between the two zodiacs, therefore, is not so much in the contents of the zodiacs but in the calculation of the starting point of the 1st degree of Aries.

The 1st degree of Aries
In Western or Tropical astrology the calculation of the Sun passing through the 1st degree of Aries is marked by the spring equinox or March 21st. By extension, if you take out your western ephemeris you’ll note that the beginning of each season is lined up with the Sun passing through each of the cardinal points in the zodiac – Aries, Cancer, Libra, and Capricorn. The Tropical zodiac, therefore, is a symbolic system based on the sun earth relationship and is oriented to the seasons.

In Vedic or Sidereal astrology the calculation of the Sun passing through the 1st degree of Aries is marked by the Sun actually passing through the observable fixed stars making up the constellation Aries and has nothing to do with the seasons. “Sider” means “star” and therefore sidereal astrology is based on the actual astronomical positions of the planets against the backdrop of the fixed star constellations. The Sidereal zodiac, therefore, is not symbolic but is oriented to an observable phenomenon.

David Frawley writes in his book, The Astrology of the Seers, that “the Sidereal zodiac is probably the original zodiac historically, as it is the observable zodiac. The Tropical, which is an abstract zodiac, must have been derived from it, as all abstractions are usually based on underlying observable things.”

The Precession of the Equinox
An astonishing thing to contemplate is that the ancient Vedic rishis were aware of the fact that the earth changes its tilt or “wobbles” on its axis. Many centuries before the Europeans were debating over whether the earth was flat, the Vedic rishis were figuring out exactly what effect the Earth’s wobble would have on the calculations of their ephemeris’s!

Without the aid of telescopes or modern technology they calculated that the orientation of the equinoxes to the fixed stars precedes or moves backwards through the zodiac at a rate of about 50.3 seconds per year, or about 1 degree every 72 years. That they were actually able to calculate this gives us a clue as to how advanced the ancient Vedic civilization was in terms of mathematical and astronomical knowledge.

This phenomenon is known as the “precession of the equinox”. In other words, where the Sun actually is at the time of the spring equinox moves backward through the zodiac. Sidereally speaking, this year 2003, the sun was at 6 degrees 03 minutes of Pisces, at the spring equinox. Therefore, the current mathematical difference as of March 21st 2003 between the two zodiacs is 23 degrees 57 minutes.

The Ayanamsha
This mathematical difference between the Sidereal and the Tropical zodiacs is called the “ayanamsha” in Sanskrit. As another example, on January 1st 1950, the ayanamsha was at 23 degrees 09 minutes.

However, to further complicate matters there are several commonly used ayanamshas that vary by as much as almost 2 degrees from one another. By far the most commonly used ayanamsha by Vedic astrologers worldwide is the Lahiri ayanamsha, which was given the stamp of approval by the government of India.

The Historical Alignment of the Two Zodiacs
Historically, it’s generally agreed, that the two zodiacs were in alignment with one another about the year 285 A.D. with both ephemeris’s listing the passage of the Sun into Aries at the spring equinox. So what happened? What went wrong?

I don’t know that anything went “wrong”. Obviously, our civilization was just meant to have both zodiacs.

When the Two Zodiacs Will Be Exactly Opposite
Due to the precession of the equinox, the Sun will be at the 1st degree of Libra at the spring equinox in 11,232 years! Mark you calendars! Then we’ll really have a lot of explaining to do with regards to the two systems because they’ll be exactly opposite one another!! The ayanamsha will be 180 degrees 0 minutes!! I’d say it’d be worth it to incarnate at that time just to join in the debate!

The Process of Debating
Let’s face it - we’re basically creatures of habit. We tend to feel comfortable with what we’re used to and resist change. It’s hard to be clear and objective when we feel threatened in any way and it’s easy to dismiss a seemingly opposing viewpoint to save having to expand out of our comfort zones.

I think God gets a lot of mileage out of people debating and facing the stuff that comes up in the process. Take, for instance, how debating is an integral practice in the training of Tibetan Buddhist monks in the qualities of understanding and compassion. Eventually their resistances are broken down and they’re able to contain a broader, more all encompassing viewpoint.

The Debate Today
The debate between the two zodiacs is, of course, centered around one main question: “How can both systems be right?” How can I be, for instance, both an Aries in the Western system and a Pisces in the Vedic system?

It could be argued, first of all, that it’s rather simplistic to identify yourself as only one particular sign like we tend to do in the West. This is more of a recent cultural phenomenon due to the popularization of horoscope columns. In the more distant past, Western astrology was oriented more to the ascendant than the Sun if it had to be limited to one sign. Vedic astrology today favors the emphasis of the ascendant over the Sun as well.

This makes sense because the ascendant is the starting point of the horoscope and the quickest moving indication in the chart so is could be considered more personally associated with your identity or “you”. In practice, the ascendant or 1st house relates more to one’s self, identity and personality traits than any other house.

However, if you asked someone in India “what’s your sign?” they would likely assume you mean their Moon sign, since Vedic astrology is a Moon-based system and it’s primary predictive systems are based on the Moon.

Reasons for the Relevance of Both Zodiacs
The obvious reason why emphasizing one sign is limited is that there are so many potential configurations from which to interpret the same descriptive traits. For instance, your Sun may move from Aries to Pisces in your Vedic chart, but you also may still have three planets in Aries, or Mars in Aries. You certainly would tend to see strong Aries traits in the Vedic chart even though the Sun is not involved.

In fact, in my experience that’s always been the case when I look at the two charts for a particular person. They’ve never contradicted one another looking at the chart as a whole.

Some people say that your Western chart is more “earthy” and represents your personality and your Vedic chart is more “heavenly” and represents your soul. This makes some sense due to the relative vantage points in terms of distance. In other words, the stars are further away than our Sun, which is the closest star.

On the other hand, this seems to imply that your Western chart is more grounded in practical matters on Earth, and your Vedic chart is more spiritual and ethereal. Whereas, the opposite could be argued to be the case because your Vedic chart is related to the actual observable fixed stars and your Western chart is symbolic. This is why some argue that your Vedic chart can be so accurate for prediction with actual events on Earth and your Western chart is better for describing the psychological effects the actual events may have on your psyche.

The Evolutionary Pattern of the Zodiac
I think that what’s important is the realization that the zodiac represents an archetypal evolutionary developmental pattern beginning with Aries and ending in Pisces. As an illustration, the pattern of 12 signs can be visually likened to a clock. If you rotate the clock and get the Sidereal Vedic chart or the Western Tropical chart the clock still works at least symbolically if not literally because it’s based on a true fundamental pattern.

This is why I think Western astrology makes sense even though it uses a symbolic zodiac. Our day to day life on earth is integrally effected by the seasons and so to transpose the zodiac over the seasons – works. The essential qualities of the signs of the zodiac do line up with the Sun passing through the seasons. For instance, the Sun passing into Aries conveys the qualities of spring – active, energetic, vigorous creative new life etc.

Likewise, you could take any developmental pattern and transpose the zodiac. One obvious one would be take the 12 year transit return of Jupiter. Each year is like one sign of the zodiac. The first year when Jupiter is transiting over natal Jupiter is new, energetic and expansive in growth like Aries even though the actual Jupiter return may happen to land in another sign. The twelfth year, like Pisces, has qualities of dissolution and death before the rebirth again with the next Jupiter return.

The Zodiac Wrap Up
Being that the Tropical system is Sun-based the commonly held opinion is that the Tropical system is better at describing the personality and psychological patterns. Whereas, the Vedic system is better at describing the soul nature and predicting actual events because it’s tied to the actual fixed constellations.

And that’s how the reference texts read in practice. The Vedic texts shed very little light on psychological patterns and emphasize prediction whereas it’s just the opposite with the Western reference texts.

I think that the bottom line is that you can get an accurate reading, both in terms of psychological interpretation and prediction, using either system. In the final analysis I think that the accuracy of the system depends more on the astrologer than on the system.

Lesson 1 Exercise:
How to Calculate Your Vedic Chart - Subtracting the Ayanamsha
Obtain a copy of your western chart, if you don’t have one already. Make a list of your planets and their degrees as shown below. Subtract the ayanamsha or 23 degrees from each Tropical planetary position and the ascendant to get their Sidereal position.

Example Calculations:
Tropical Positions Sidereal Positions
Asc: 11 Gemini – 23 = 18 Taurus
Sun: 14 Scorpio – 23 = 21 Libra
Moon: 10 Virgo – 23 = 17 Leo
Mercury: 28 Libra – 23 = 5 Libra
Venus: 8 Libra – 23 = 15 Virgo
Mars: 25 Capricorn – 23 = 2 Capricorn
Jupiter: 9 Pisces – 23 = 16 Aquarius
Saturn: 24 Aquarius – 23 = 1 Aquarius
North Node: 18 Sagittarius – 23 = 5 Scorpio
South Node: 18 Gemini – 23 = 5 Taurus
Uranus: 24 Leo – 23 = 1 Leo
Neptune: 3 Libra – 23 = 10 Virgo
Pluto: 14 Virgo – 23 = 21 Leo

An easy way to do this in your head, if the planet’s degrees are less than 23 degrees in any given sign, is to add 7 degrees and go back a sign. For example, if a planet is at 11 degrees Gemini then add 7 degrees and go back to Taurus. The Sidereal position would be 18 degrees Taurus.

If you want to get the exact position of the planet down to the minute then get out a calculator and calculate the exact ayanamsha of the year and month you were born.

Use the following dates for the ayanamsha as a starting point:

January 1st 1940 - 23 degrees 01 minutes
January 1st 1950 - 23 degrees 09 minutes
January 1st 1960 - 23 degrees 18 minutes
January 1st 1970 - 23 degrees 26 minutes
January 1st 1980 - 23 degrees 34 minutes

Use these approximate figures:

4 minutes 11 seconds per 5 years
1 minute 40 seconds per 2 years
50 seconds per 1 year
4 seconds per month
Herakles said:
e.g. Why is precession important and what exactly is it?

Hi Herakles,

I know very little about astrology, but when it comes to precession, I think Walter Crutenden has an interesting theory in his book Lost Star of Myth and Time. The book was discussed in one of the recent transcripts here. Crutenden puts forth the idea that precession isn't caused by the Earth's axis wobbling, but by the entire solar system's rotation about a companion star. While he may be off in his speculations on what particular star the Sun's companion might be, the evidence that precession is due to the orbital motion of the entire solar system is quite good, I think.

Most of this evidence he describes on his Binary Research Institute website too:

I'm not sure how this fits into astrology since I'm not an astrologist, but I thought I would mention this work.
RyanX said:
Herakles said:
e.g. Why is precession important and what exactly is it?

Hi Herakles,

I know very little about astrology, but when it comes to precession, I think Walter Crutenden has an interesting theory in his book Lost Star of Myth and Time. The book was discussed in one of the recent transcripts here. Crutenden puts forth the idea that precession isn't caused by the Earth's axis wobbling, but by the entire solar system's rotation about a companion star. While he may be off in his speculations on what particular star the Sun's companion might be, the evidence that precession is due to the orbital motion of the entire solar system is quite good, I think.

Most of this evidence he describes on his Binary Research Institute website too:

I'm not sure how this fits into astrology since I'm not an astrologist, but I thought I would mention this work.

Hi Ryan X,

Thanks for pointing out that link, I remember the discussion in brief about Crutenden and a revised approach to determining the cause of precession, and remember saying then that I would try to read this, but to date I still have not got ahold of this book.

It is a good point and worth looking into further though for as far as technical precision goes, if precession is not caused by the earths wobble but instead by the gravitational effects of an outer solar system/companion star orbit, then the periods of "wobble" or differences in precession (As noted in the second article) may have different values at different times of the path along the orbit. Meaning the ayanamsha can widen and shorten according to the earth and suns plotted positions along the entire arc or orbit.

Or so I think. :/
Herakles said:
It is a good point and worth looking into further though for as far as technical precision goes, if precession is not caused by the earths wobble but instead by the gravitational effects of an outer solar system/companion star orbit, then the periods of "wobble" or differences in precession (As noted in the second article) may have different values at different times of the path along the orbit. Meaning the ayanamsha can widen and shorten according to the earth and suns plotted positions along the entire arc or orbit.

Or so I think. :/

I think that's exactly what Crutenden proposes: that the rate of precession is actually changing, and does change at different points along the cycle. He even shows some evidence to this effect in the book.
I just finished reading a short little book, Astrology off the Beaten Path: A Scientific Study of Planets and Personality, by Dr. Suzel Fuzeau-Braesch. It looks like she was one of the few scientists to actually put astrology to the test in recent years. Most of her books are in French, but this one is in English. She describes the experiments she conducted, and what she could and couldn't confirm based on this. In a nutshell, she confirms that astrology does 'work', but as usual, the devil is in the details. According to her research, the tools that have testable effects are basic sun signs and angular planets. She could find no confirmation of the 12 'houses', saying "this tool has no objective footing" (but calls for more research, saying such an experiment would need at least 12,000 cases in order to get any useable results).

She did a number of studies - on puppy litters, cloned cows, twins, and other various human groups - showing this.

She notes that precession (often used by skeptics as a reason for discounting astrology) "has nothing to do with the definition of the tropical zodiac". She basically says the 12 signs are merely symbols (as in mathematical symbols) for a spatial relationship. "[T]his phenomenon in no way affects modern astrology since it positions the signs with respect to their apparent revolution with great precision."

In the puppies, she found that the correlation between angular positions and temperament/behavioral traits were particularly strong for dominant dogs.

"We found that the association between extraversion/dominance and Jupiter, and between extraversion/dominance and the sun were amazingly strong. The results far exceeded the threshold of significance we set for the test. Some other much less impressive associations can also be made - for example, a reserved character and a prominent Saturn."

This is interesting in light of the electric universe theory and McCanney's work, as Jupiter has the most influence next to the sun in terms of electrical phenomena. In the analysis, nervous/introverted dogs often have Saturn in an angular position; lack of Mars means sensitive and timid; lack of Jupiter and Sun are non-dominant, unsociable and sensitive with moon in excess.

A test in human sociability showed a sinusoidal pattern for signs.

There is an alternation in sociability, lower and higher than average inside each sign of the zodiac, except for the very low average score of Aries.

Libra was 'highest', Aries was 'lowest'. The reason for the break in the pattern is intelligible when each sign is divided into sections, and the wave pattern shows itself.

the second detailed analysis answers the hoary question of the typological 'jump' from one sign to another; in other words, the difference between someone born on the last day of one sign and another born on the first day of the next sign are cases that astrologers tend to ignore. In fact, the 'difference' is seen here to be continuous and progressive, part of a pattern that should be taken into account... The global typology of the twelve signs thus remains valid only for general approximations and is applicable, in general, mainly to those born in the middle of the signs.

She also tested incidence of sudden infant death syndrome that they occurred "more frequently than chance would suggest with a high level of significance (P=0.009) when one of the three planets closest to the Sun forms an angle of 180 degrees with it." There was no correlation with aspects of the birth chart and SIDS.

One interesting data point was that different countries tend to have maxima of different signs. E.g.,

Israel (Muslims): Leo,
Israel (Israelis), Netherlands: Virgo,
Greece, Belgium: Cancer,
Finland, Norway, Sweden: Aries
Switzerland: Pisces
Spain: Taurus
France: Gemini, Cancer

In chapter 14 she summarizes "some tools of astrology that are valid and can be used with confidence":

sun - strong personality
moon - sensitive and/or passive, talented, receptive, empathetic
mercury - communicative and/or reactive
venus - strong emotional life, sensitive
mars - energetic/headstrong, athletic
jupiter - authoritative and sociable, likes attention and/or charismatic
saturn - serious, thoughtful, slow
neptune - tendency to daydream, imaginative, sensitive, receptive, intuitive, sometimes irrational
uranus - independent and/or directive
pluto - original and/or marginal, or analytical mind

She also summarizes the characteristics of each sign that she found and concludes, "All of these keywords correspond, in almost every case, to the traditional definitions used in astrology."

As for her theory on why this may be the case, and why the moment at birth is the determining factor, she focuses on DNA, immune function, and geomagnetism. Magnetism can activate genes ("can increase the synthesis of DNA ... or they can interrupt and stop it"), as can electrical pulses ("voltage attracts the DNA in a differential way and gently separates them. [Magnetic field] agitates and stirs up the dipoles").

In fact the regulation of the expression of the genome implies that there is enough substrate to increase the choice of the expression and the potential for further evolution ... According to specialists, the agitation caused by magnetic fields is a result of the "resonation" of dipoles dictated by the magnetic field at a given frequency or at a multiple or sub-multiple of this frequency ... These cerebral dipoles, or endocrine cells, can be sensitive to certain very slight geomagnetic influences at frequencies at which they resonate. This will instigate some functional orientation, a modification or delay in a set of neurons.

As hormones and their balances affect behavior, she hypothesizes that geomagnetic affects on endocrine system at birth affect personality. As evidence she cites the fact that in both rats and humans, there is a noticeable surge in testosterone in males. This has no discernible effect if blocked, until adulthood, when rats are unable to reproduce. Thus, a hormonal surge at birth is accepted that has long-term effects. In addition, at birth, there is a surge of stress hormones, "the massive catecholamine release ... and the stimulation of the adaptable metabolism (fat reserves in the shoulders, start up of the extremely complex breathing mechanism, modified blood circulation, etc.)" This is interesting in terms of polyvagal theory... She concludes:

1. The hormonal complex of the organism, coupled with cerebral operation, create defined behavior profiles, although the influence of individual experience in personal development is also a factor.

2. Hormonal situations can impact the personality of individuals, both in the short term and in the long term.

3. It is now proven that a physiological event occurring at the moment of entry into the world, that instant of complex biological adjustment that constitutes birth, can have major behavioral repercussions, even in the long term. This provides a schema and a model that bears comparison with the astrological hypothesis that suggests that the moment of birth is decisive for hte psychological analysis of an individual.

4. Our knowledge of the genetic functioning of cells via the information carried in DNA molecules indicates that they can be at the source of these hormonal situations. Molecules are known to be "dipolar," electrically charged and thus sensitive to, amongst other factors, the geomagnetic environment of the Earth. The glandular functions, which can obviously be very subtle, cannot escape this environment.

It's refreshing to see some actual work being done in this area! Unfortunately, Dr. Fuzeau-Baesch died just before the book was published in 2009, at the age of 80. She has a bunch of books published in French on the subject, and was biologist by training.
Just wanted to add that I thought the virgo/Israel/Dutch thing was interesting. According to her research maladapted virgos are "anxious, hypercritical, obsessed by details, not sociable". Sounds schizoidal to me!
I just finished reading a short little book, Astrology off the Beaten Path: A Scientific Study of Planets and Personality, by Dr. Suzel Fuzeau-Braesch

Approaching Infinity! I simply must get that most fascinating sounding book! :)

I know six persons that I suspect as being psychopaths. For three of them, I am rather sure, although I know I can't set a formal diagnosis. I don't have the same large amount of empirical data on the three others.

Among those, five (!) are born in Virgo, one in Leo. Actually four of them are clustered on two following days. Coincidence?

It might be that I easier recognize psychopaths very similar to those I have a lot of experience with, and thus miss the rest. I am sure that I do not recognize most of them.
iloveyellow said:
I just finished reading a short little book, Astrology off the Beaten Path: A Scientific Study of Planets and Personality, by Dr. Suzel Fuzeau-Braesch

Approaching Infinity! I simply must get that most fascinating sounding book! :)

Yes, me too! From what I've read so far on this thread, she's really onto something.
A quick forum search turned up three mentions of, one of which recommended it as a useful resource and noted its extensive links section. I should like to obtain a copy of The Cipher of Genesis by Carlo Suares, which is referenced on this forum and repeatedly on It seems to be a defining work in understanding esoteric bible study. Other works by Suares also contribute to the material on The similarity between Stan Tenen and Carlo Suares isn't too surprising, since the Meru reading list includes The Cipher of Genesis. I used to think that was a site belonging to Mr. Suares until I read his bio and discovered that he died in 1976. appears to be operated by a keen student of Suares' books and information about the Sepher Yetzira in general, yet the author's identity is noticeably absent. The links section of the website, 15,000+ by their count, covers a variety of topics. The astrology section alone contains 264 links.

To get to the main point of this post, this page explains much of the confusion with Western astrology's understanding of the zodiac signs and influences of the planets. By studying the relationships between the letter combinations that make up the Hebrew name for the planet Mars (Meadim) the archetypal forces behind the red planet are intrinsically revealed without having to resort to Roman or Greek mythology that contributes to all this confusion. The given name Mars has no meaning in and of itself, it is arbitrary. The formative forces of the Hebrew letters tell the story of the influence of this planet. This page uses Mars as an example of how by studying the Hebrew names for the zodiac signs and the planets, one can gain a alphanumeric linguistic and mathematical understanding of astrology. There are several pages on the main site dealing with the planets, the zodiac, and astrology as a whole. I hope others find this as useful a resource as I have.

I know there is a lot of "noise" when dealing with anything Kaballistic, but Suares seemed to truly grasp its mysteries and hidden meanings. Kaballah I think is a lot like the Alchemical tradition, and I feel secure comparing Suares to Fulcanelli in terms of both being a path to true interpretations for those who can see through the layers of obfuscation.
Approaching Infinity said:
I just finished reading a short little book, Astrology off the Beaten Path: A Scientific Study of Planets and Personality, by Dr. Suzel Fuzeau-Braesch.

Fascinating! Thanks for the review AI. I'll have to add this one to my already growing list of books "to get". :)
Here's an article we carried on SOTT that seems to point to some evidence for astrology. I'm going to add it to this thread for reference.

Birth Month Suggests Career Path

According to a new study, the month in which your child is born may determine what career he or she is likely to follow as an adult.

The study, conducted by the UK Office for National Statistics (ONS), found that being born in a certain month indicates a statistical likelihood of what job a person will end up with. Researchers in the study also found that the month in which babies are born could also affect everything from intelligence to how long they live.

Using information from the last national census, the ONS analyzed the birth months of people from 19 different careers, reports the Daily Mail.

They found that general practitioners and debt collectors have the greatest percentage of January births, while sheet-metal workers have the lowest percentage. February newcomers appear to have a greater chance of becoming artists, and March is a good month for pilots, according to the ONS study.

The team said their findings suggest that both April and May have a fairly even spread of career paths. They said that babies born during the summer months (June, July and August) have a much lower chance of having high-end, top-paying careers, such as doctor, dentist, or professional athlete.

September babies have a greater chance above becoming sports players and physicists, and a less likely chance of becoming bricklayers or hairdressers. And giving birth in December could make your child become a dentist, the researchers suggest.

They also suggest that certain jobs are spread quite evenly throughout the year; most notably CEOs of large companies and real estate agents.

Although these trends may be difficult to explain, the researchers also suggest there are connections between month of birth and specific health issues.

They say babies born during the springtime have a greater risk of illnesses including schizophrenia, Alzheimer's disease, asthma and autism.

Many of the differences found may be linked to the amount of sunlight a mother receives during pregnancy, they suggest. Sunlight triggers the production of vitamin D in the body and lack of this in the first few months of life may have long-lasting effects.

Oxford University scientist Russell Foster, speaking earlier this year, said the effects were small "but they are very, very clear."

"I am not giving voice to astrology - it's nonsense - but we are not immune to seasonal interference," he said. "It seems absurd the month in which you are born can affect life chances, but how long you live, how tall you are, how well you do at school, your body mass index as an adult, your morning-versus-evening preference and how likely you are to develop a range of diseases are all correlated to some extent with the time of year in which you emerge from the womb."

I thought the note about CEOs was interesting. Maybe astrological influences don't affect psychopaths the same way as they would a normal or souled human being? Not that all CEOs are psychopaths, but I'd wager a lot of the ones at large corporations are.
For those interested in Astrology, perhaps you'd be interested in the Human Design system.
It's a system which synthesizes Astrology, Kabbalah, the Hindu Chakra system, and the I Ching all in to one.

It not only details one's personal landscape, but also describes the process of one's "strategy" in terms of navigating trans-personal relationships.

It has an incredible track record in my experience, and I approached it with skepticism, taking the time to test and verify everything in the readings.

Getting a professional astrology or human design reading can be quite insightful in terms of gaining self-knowledge. I actually think it works well together with esoteric work with regards to getting a more objective view of oneself, the lessons, talents, blind spots and so on. Over the years I've gotten readings from different astrologers and human design analysts that have been very helpful. Of course there are limitations and not everything can be explained through the lens of one particular system, so take it with a grain of salt, fwiw.

Free Human Design chart: (has audio explanations for the core aspects of the chart. The rest can be found with a quick google search and some reading...)

History of Human Design: _

Enjoy! :)
de-tached said:
For those interested in Astrology, perhaps you'd be interested in the Human Design system.

Fwiw, we do have a thread on Human Design already:,18746.0.html
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