Attention

[Dracount]

I have been experimenting with attention lately and have come across a few difficulties personally.

When my attention is focused on something intellectual such as a book I am able to continue holding this attention for as long as I need to. But when trying to focus on an emotion or anything internally this level of attention i can only hold this for a small amount of time before my associations begin to start and I drift off and before long am thinking about completely random thoughts which lead off one from the next.

I have found when directed that I can focus on something generally for 4-7 seconds without having to either refocus on the same thing or move to another idea or associations begin.

So I have come to the following conclusions:
1. Attention must continually be directed
2 when not directed it reverts back to associations
3 if attention is not directed it's natural state is to revert to associations

I am unsure if this is the.correct way of functioning or if I am missing something. One possibility is that attention should always be focused on something? Alternatively allowing the associations to continue when attention is not directed is normal?

I have seen some 4th way writings which attention should be always at least focused on (a part of ) the body as well as anything else which is holdingy attention.

Has anyone worked on this or have any thoughts?

 

[David]

When my attention is focused on something intellectual such as a book I am able to continue holding this attention for as long as I need to. But when trying to focus on an emotion or anything internally this level of attention i can only hold this for a small amount of time before my associations begin to start and I drift off and before long am thinking about completely random thoughts which lead off one from the next.

Maybe what you have discovered is ones personal dynamic of dissociation, anything where emotions are involved, though that would be everything... part of the whole for everybody Osit

I have found when directed that I can focus on something generally for 4-7 seconds without having to either refocus on the same thing or move to another idea or associations begin.

Some say it takes that amount of time when a decision is made, for one to become conscious of the decision... if true I decided to post a few seconds before being aware of it...bummer.

So I’m a guy, who’s probably always the last one to know, so here’s a thread associated with Attention, that being self observation... osit

Self observation... found here http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=22.msg46

Though I think non-identification is of a great help in that practice of paying attention...

Sorry I’m not much help Dracount, FWIW


mod: edit conscious

 

[paralleloscope]

Hi Dracount, what is the difference between your conclusion #2 and #3?

I am unsure if this is the.correct way of functioning or if I am missing something. One possibility is that attention should always be focused on something? Alternatively allowing the associations to continue when attention is not directed is normal?

Allowing associations to continue undirected and mechanically is the normal for humans it seems. I do not think attention should strictly and always be focused, since it seems we have an inbuilt need to dissociate, which can be directed to positive dissociation, not only to relax but also as a way of accessing new information from the subconscious.

That's not to say that attention and its training isn't needed, it is. I too have attention difficulties, especially when it comes to meditation, whether it's sticking to a prayer or listening to breathing, and constantly drift with associations when not in touch or at ease with body, and even then directed attention seldom goes over 5-10 seconds. But it's like with the old bodybuilding analogy; attention is like a muscle and it needs the training to get stronger. I'm sure you know that, but following that analogy, your post seems to me as if you want to work out all day, which would be counterproductive. I imagine attention can be trained in different ways, not just by brute force 'weightlifting', but also by setting a general attention demand in dedication to a task, monitoring ones attention along the way, doing stints. Then there's the development of 'felt sense', as in being aware of the body, which can improve willpower to hold attention. That's not to suggest a wishy washy attention attitude (which is likely to happen naturally), but a realistic one (with daily super effort work outs too) to grow organically.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

But it's like with the old bodybuilding analogy; attention is like a muscle and it needs the training to get stronger.

Yep. I think what you describe, Dracount, is pretty much what Gurdjieff was talking about when he told his students about how difficult it is to self-remember - because we almost instantly forget our wish to self-remember, and the associations start up again, then we remember to self-remember, then we forget, etc. So, as others have said, I wouldn't really worry about it. It's fairly 'normal'. But like Parallel says above, that doesn't mean we can't train our attention. It's like working out. It won't help to start out benchpressing 400 lbs, though. So start small, with those 5 or so seconds of attention, and go from there. A good time to practice is during meditation.

 

[Renaissance]

Thinking Fast and Slow relates a lot to this topic, as does much of the 4th way material as you mention. Gurdjieff wrote about different exercises for holding attention and it can be shocking to see just how little control we have over our own mind.

When my attention is focused on something intellectual such as a book I am able to continue holding this attention for as long as I need to. But when trying to focus on an emotion or anything internally this level of attention i can only hold this for a small amount of time before my associations begin to start and I drift off and before long am thinking about completely random thoughts which lead off one from the next.

I agree it can be difficult to stay with certain emotions without dissociating onto something else. I know I have a tendency towards intellectualizing things/intellectual activities. While these things can serve a purpose, they can also be forms of dissociation. Directing attention toward emotions involves more work as does processing thoughts like with writing. This relates to the system one and system two thinking described in the Thinking Fast and Slow link above.

I think our undeveloped emotional center also plays a part here. Left to it's own devices emotions tend to work behind the scenes and drive us in all sorts of directions. But setting up an environment to process them is helpful to understand these signals. Since they are often undeveloped and we're so poor at sorting them out, we usually need additional data to work with, which is another reason networking is so useful. The conditioning we've had to ignore emotions is, I think, often responsible for leading us to near constant dissociation. In both direct and indirect ways, the work on emotions seems to bring results for developing attention, which I think is closely related to will here.

 

[Meg]

Hi Dracount,

I agree with others that meditation would help with focusing your attention better. One thing that is particularly helpful is returning your focus to something during meditation when you notice your mind wandering. You can pay attention to your breath, inhaling and exhaling and return your focus to that, or have a idea or mantra to focus on. Your mind will wander and thoughts will come and go. That's completely normal; our attention just needs some training. The more you practice, the better you'll become at staying focused.

Are you doing Eiriú Eolas? If you are, you can pay attention to the various ways you breathe during the program and especially to the words of the Prayer for the Soul. If you aren't doing the program yet, consider this a nudge to get it a try. :)

In case you haven't seen it, we have a thread here on the Forum about it.

There is also more here on The Role of Meditation in the Work.

 

[Buddy]

When my attention is focused on something intellectual such as a book I am able to continue holding this attention for as long as I need to.

It may be easier to maintain a steady line of thought while reading because there is the advantage of familiarity with the form, structure and the logic in a language that connects everything together.

But when trying to focus on an emotion or anything internally this level of attention i can only hold this for a small amount of time before my associations begin to start and I drift off and before long am thinking about completely random thoughts which lead off one from the next.

When you're reading, you have an overall goal or purpose that explains what you're reading and why you're reading it. Do you also have a purpose or goal for what you're trying to observe internally? If not, you may simply be lacking a guide, thus, the apparent randomization.

I have found when directed that I can focus on something generally for 4-7 seconds without having to either refocus on the same thing or move to another idea or associations begin.

Are the focusing efforts you're referring to here internal, external or both?

So I have come to the following conclusions:
1. Attention must continually be directed
2 when not directed it reverts back to associations
3 if attention is not directed it's natural state is to revert to associations

I am unsure if this is the.correct way of functioning or if I am missing something. One possibility is that attention should always be focused on something?

Maybe a better way of looking at it would be to say that awareness needs to be engaged in efforts to learn something unless we are relaxing, resting or sleeping. When I'm in learning mode, it seems to be easier to guide my attention towards a result because I don't seem to have direct control over it. Direct control may be possible, but I've only experienced it in terms of 'guiding' which presupposes a purpose is involved.

Alternatively allowing the associations to continue when attention is not directed is normal?

Normal or natural, I guess. I seem to understand in terms of my awareness and its attention being unfocused or focused within some frame that outlines what I'm doing at the moment. There are times when my attention is all over the place, but even then I can choose to notice any previously hidden relationships between data and ideas and decide to what extent, if any, a relationship is relevant.

For example, I currently have no use for knowing that my brain has noticed and filed away classifications or color-coded observations about the various rooms in my house, but 'color' is indeed a relationship between data that otherwise may appear simply random.

In a Work context, a struggle with apparently random ideas may be because a part of you is working out implications of a principle or simply looking for relationships that may or may not exist in order to learn something. For example, in Laura's writings, you might have run across the idea of "acting for one's destiny" and then notice that this phrase is preceded by acknowledging that sometimes this behavior may look like acting "against" someone if you look at it from a one-dimensional (black and white) perspective.

Now, a mind that has read the entire Wave series may be 'buzzing' with apparently random associations from that online work, yet not produce anything new or useful from this randomization. However, if someone will consciously notice patterns in the data, it might occur to them to search the entire site with keywords representing apparently random data. In your personal context, the "site" could be your mind or brain's own knowledge base.

A person who is not used to reflecting on what they read may never integrate or connect the mentioned idea across other contexts and domains of life and, therefore, not realize that "it's not personal, it's principle." This principle arises from knowledge of an aspect of "the terror of the situation". Any given person could be a spook, spy or someone being groomed or spied upon, or simply be a conscious or unconscious agent of disruption. It's not personal, it's principle, and the difference can be found in where the reader's attention is directed.

I have seen some 4th way writings which attention should be always at least focused on (a part of ) the body as well as anything else which is holdingy attention.

I think that's good advice. I alternate using my breathing, posture and physical tension as an anchor for this exercise. At the very least, I'm able to connect sensory data in my environment to changes in my body.

Has anyone worked on this or have any thoughts?

I hope you find something of the above useful. Oftentimes I have written on the forum typing out a wide range of associations that I see but whose connections are either hidden to others or simply irrelevant to the point, so I have been guilty of projecting "noise". I'm hoping, in this case, the info above is relevant and helpful to you.

 

[Dracount]

I think our undeveloped emotional center also plays a part here. Left to it's own devices emotions tend to work behind the scenes and drive us in all sorts of directions. But setting up an environment to process them is helpful to understand these signals. Since they are often undeveloped and we're so poor at sorting them out, we usually need additional data to work with, which is another reason networking is so useful. The conditioning we've had to ignore emotions is, I think, often responsible for leading us to near constant dissociation. In both direct and indirect ways, the work on emotions seems to bring results for developing attention, which I think is closely related to will here.

I am working at picking out my emotional states and separating them from my intellectualization of them, but with out that level of intellectualization I have difficulty keeping my attention focused on that state. Without any direction the associations seem unavoidable. Either I do things to compliment that emotional state e.g dance when I'm feeling joy and that helps me maintain and express the emotion, but then I don't have a proper aim besides a general "to be in developing this center" which I could be more refined I think.

So then what should my aim be with this work? To be able to keep my attention focused on the emotion? To specifically use the emotion in different ways?

Could you give some details in what you mean by "setting up an environment" and "networking" or some examples?

 

[furryfrog]

I have been experimenting with attention lately and have come across a few difficulties personally.

When my attention is focused on something intellectual such as a book I am able to continue holding this attention for as long as I need to. But when trying to focus on an emotion or anything internally this level of attention i can only hold this for a small amount of time before my associations begin to start and I drift off and before long am thinking about completely random thoughts which lead off one from the next.

I would say you are doing well with self observation and seeing in yourself what you have. The harder you work and push, the stronger your attention will get. Your a man number 3 so when you lose your focus you end up back in the head with your mechanical brain. As for your intellectual centre, Try to focus on your "random thoughts" and see that they are not really random, your computer brain is linking things together with an association of some sort no matter how odd. Reflect on your thoughts after the fact and try to discover where they started and what made them connect? After a lot of work, on a good day you may and be aware of what association is connecting your mechanical thoughts in "real time"

I have found when directed that I can focus on something generally for 4-7 seconds without having to either refocus on the same thing or move to another idea or associations begin.

So I have come to the following conclusions:
1. Attention must continually be directed
2 when not directed it reverts back to associations
3 if attention is not directed it's natural state is to revert to associations

1. Yes, one is either asleep or actively trying wake up, to be conscious.
2. Yes, sleepy time, mechanical, (man #3)
3. Yes, but your wording should be more like your inattention is to revert to associations. (like your 2nd conclusion.)

I am unsure if this is the.correct way of functioning or if I am missing something. One possibility is that attention should always be focused on something? Alternatively allowing the associations to continue when attention is not directed is normal?

I have seen some 4th way writings which attention should be always at least focused on (a part of ) the body as well as anything else which is holdingy attention.

Has anyone worked on this or have any thoughts?

Always try to have attention directed inward, self observation. Normal Yes, but sleepy. "You" are not allowing anything, It is mechanical, To be doing the work means to see them and to try and not let them lead you into more mechanical thoughts. Being is an active state, not passive.

I would suggest to only work on one centre at a time for now. From my understanding of the definitions in fourth way material, man number 4 is one who can focus on all 3 centres at the same time. You are doing well with you intellectual centre, be aware of your associations, and your imagination, imagining your talking to someone, and imagining your doing something. When you try to focus on your emotional centre try to just do that and stay out of your head, and same with your moving centre. The more present you can be in your emotional centre or in your moving centre, the more "tools" you will have to keep from slipping back into your mechanical head, your consciousness (attention) will have more places to be.

Try to stay in the now now, like Col. Sandurz describes.

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Think about practising the posture of the sage (gnosis), it will help you with all your centres, aim for the "nebulous" feeling described, to help you connect to your body. Try to consciously breathe throughout the day, no matter what activity you are doing.

If you have not read the book "The reality of Being, the fourth way of Gurdjieff" -Jeanne De Salzmann, I would recommend getting a copy. From your post and questions I believe the book will be of benefit to you.

 

[Buddy]

I don't think I understand what you want to do with "joy". I just experience it. Without a narrative, there is less focus than there is simply 'experiencing in the moment.' I can't focus on emotion directly because it flows rather than stands still, if that makes sense. With emotion, all I can notice are changes or differences between two points in time, and that includes changes in intensity.

Work with 'negative' emotions is different, in the sense that, when I'm able, I can deliberately refrain from any overt expression and just let the feeling sit until it fades - or as long as I can. I may or may not become aware of the conception hiding inside it as it fades - especially if I'm unsuccessful in just sitting with it.

In any case, I can't directly focus that kind of attention on emotion. If the emotion is joy, I wouldn't want that to fade. Genuine joy is an end in itself, I think.

 

[obyvatel]

So then what should my aim be with this work? To be able to keep my attention focused on the emotion? To specifically use the emotion in different ways?

From what I have experienced, what works for observing emotions is attention to body posture, muscular tensions, and breath. These are body sensations. If we try to verbalize or think about emotions, then we are likely to fall into associations and narratives. This refers to just observation of what is going on without any effort to change or use the emotions.

The ability to observe emotions through body sensations depends on the level of body sensitivity one has. I had a low level of body sensitivity as an adult, so I had to practice various exercises and take help from others. In this forum, body work is suggested - there are various forms tried by different people.

In general, it may be useful to explore the body-emotion connection, not only for observation but also for eventual work on directing/using/changing them if needed.

Here is a thread on Peter Levine's "In An Unspoken Voice" which explores posture and emotions.
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,23581.msg261309.html#msg261309

Here is another thread on a book by Pat Ogden, which discusses "sensorimotor processing" and it's connection to emotions.
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28603.0.html

For body work discussion, the following thread has details
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,29359.0.html

 

[luc]

Hi Dracount,

I agree with obyvatel - as someone who was always intellect-driven and out of touch with my body and emotions, what really helped me was to focus on the body as a way to get to the emotions. I just couldn't feel my emotions directly and make sense of them, but when I started to really feel my body, it gave me a more "grounded", a more calm and steady position from which I could observe my emotions. The trick is, I think, to first separate our emotions from our constant thinking and interpreting through body awareness.

So maybe something you can explore is doing some regular sport/exercises, even if it's just some stretching and a few push-ups in the morning, or some pilates, or whatever works for you. These things helped me a lot to get in touch with my body, as did the low-carb diet. If I eat too many carbs and/or something inflaming, I loose contact to my body or at least have to work extra hard to keep me in balance.

As others have said, regular EE/meditation is extremely useful as well. What works well for me is to focus my body sensation on different parts of the body during EE (pipe breathing): 2x breathing - head, 2x breathing - left arm/shoulder/left back, 2x breathing - left leg + foot, 2x breathing - right leg/foot, 2x breathing left arm/shoulder/left back and back to the head again. After a bit of practicing, it really feels like a nice flow, which I can also consciously reproduce anytime to "ground" myself.

I think this sort of "grounding" helps to keep our attention for longer periods of time and creates a balance to our wandering minds. It also helped me a lot to "stay with my feelings" once they arise instead of shoving them under the rug or rationalize them. I think after some experimentation with those or similar exercises, we can become better at "holding feelings", which makes it both easier to deal with negative feelings since we are not overwhelmed by them and understand them better.

 

[nicklebleu]

So then what should my aim be with this work? To be able to keep my attention focused on the emotion? To specifically use the emotion in different ways?

The way I understand this - and for me this is very much work in progress - is such:

Self-remembering per se is not the aim. It's a vehicle that allows me to observe what emotions arise in different situations. Mostly we are not aware of the precise emotions that control our behavior at any one time. The state of self-remembering gives us access to our emotions there and then. At the beginning only very fleetingly- and very often these are unpleasant and we push them out of our consciousness. That's when allowing an emotion to just sit with us comes in. When we do that often enough we are able to get a certain "flavor" of various feelings, which we may recognize in situations as they arise. I know, this sounds very airy-fairy, - even linear - but it's the best way I can describe it at the moment.

Knowing and being able to hold an emotion is the first step to gain some control over it, especially in dynamic situations, where some negative emotions arise. The "normal" way of dealing with negative emotions is to either deflect the problem to the outside (I have this emotion, because such and such did something to me) or to project it inside (This happened to me because I am such a looser, etc). A healthier way would be to let it sit there, to not judge it's content or origin, but just to let it run it's course. And once that's over, we then might be able to look at it more dispassionately and we might find something that is in our reach to change to get a better outcome in a similar situations.

I am generally also someone who tends to over-intellectualize things and has difficulties accessing his true emotional state. But with self-remembering I can do that in a sort of "controlled environment" where I don't have to react to an outside influence straight away. This way I can train myself of becoming better aware of my internal landscape.

Hope this is not too confused - something I struggle with on a continual basis.

 

[Renaissance]

I am working at picking out my emotional states and separating them from my intellectualization of them, but with out that level of intellectualization I have difficulty keeping my attention focused on that state. Without any direction the associations seem unavoidable. Either I do things to compliment that emotional state e.g dance when I'm feeling joy and that helps me maintain and express the emotion, but then I don't have a proper aim besides a general "to be in developing this center" which I could be more refined I think.

So then what should my aim be with this work? To be able to keep my attention focused on the emotion? To specifically use the emotion in different ways?

Could you give some details in what you mean by "setting up an environment" and "networking" or some examples?

I meant things like setting time to journal about issues when they come up (the Pennebaker excersices are really good), talking to people you trust, or posting here to get feedback on particular situations. Posting for feedback is an instance of networking and there's also this entry on networking that might be helpful to know how it is used here.

When we're talking about emotions and their underdevelopment, I think it relates to what the C's described as emotions that limit.

There's a thread here :Buffers, Programs and "the Predator's Mind" that's helpful in exploring these things. Laura wrote:

The emotion-laden memory structures in the brain formed under peak affect states are the foundation of the motivational systems of the individual - what the individual considers to be important for survival, how to obtain what is needed for that survival and how to avoid what is painful or threatening to survival.

So there's some rewiring to do and some of that does involve cognitive work along with the emotional work. The things we learned for survival in younger years usually do not work for our benefit later in life and often hold us back or do further damage. In the context of this thread, intellectualizing emotions might be said to be a type of coping mechanism, a buffer that keeps us from even feeling too deeply about things we unconsciously identify as threatening, bad, or even unworthy of feeling. Or on the other hand we may easily experience certain emotions that we feel are justified when they really aren't appropriate for the situation. This is where networking really comes in handy since we usually can't see beyond our programs that set off such emotions. Getting feedback provides a way to adjust our reading instrument and focus attention on the things that need it.