Awake at Home

[abeofarrell]

Hi everyone. I am new to the Work, now half way through Ouspensky's book. It is exciting to experience moments where I remember self, and I am starting to see more clearly my different centers.

Am I the only one who feels exhausted trying to maintain a state of observation as well as self-remembering throughout the day?

Anyway, just wanted to bring up that to remember self and maintain an awake state at home is incredibly difficult for me. I go home and fall asleep only to wake up on my way to work the next day. I think that at home there are so many automated systems in place, we tend to fall into old patterns most around family.

Anyone else feel the same? Any observations? Any advice?

 

[cubbex]

Nope I don't. Self observation is easy, self remembering is not that simple, as I have been learning, so... what do you understand by self remembering and self observation?

 

[abeofarrell]

Self observation in itself is not too much. I have a similar background, though assigning things to the different centers us new to me thus sometimes unclear. The challenge is maintaining the state described by Ousoensky where you observe and are aware of the observer at the same time.

As I said, in times where I used to just switch off, such as at home, it takes a far greater struggle to maintain awareness. Especially in non-expression if negative emotions, and there are so many programs running in home life coming from my upbringing and culture.

Then again this IS only my 2nd week.

 

[mcb]

Hi everyone. I am new to the Work, now half way through Ouspensky's book. It is exciting to experience moments where I remember self, and I am starting to see more clearly my different centers.

With that goes observing the activities of those centers with respect to "laws." I don't have an exact citation with me at the moment.

I find it very useful to notice unexpected "shock" situations that result in "I" changing. Where you are one thing one moment and something else the next, after something happens.

Am I the only one who feels exhausted trying to maintain a state of observation as well as self-remembering throughout the day?

I don't think so. But maybe it doesn't have to be that hard. Maybe it just seems like it should be hard and so it is. Objective, nonjudgemental observation shouldn't be exhausting. When judgement slips in, then I can see it becoming exhausting. That can also provide a reason to grow tired and quit.

Anyway, just wanted to bring up that to remember self and maintain an awake state at home is incredibly difficult for me. I go home and fall asleep only to wake up on my way to work the next day. I think that at home there are so many automated systems in place, we tend to fall into old patterns most around family.

Anyone else feel the same? Any observations? Any advice?

I can't say too much about family -- mine is gone. I am an only child and sole survivor of that family. From what other people have said about their experiences, I count myself fortunate (though I paid in advance for it with the hell I went through growing up). I recall reading that it is a system designed to keep you in your place, and to keep you from growing, exceptions notwithstanding, and I tend to agree. I think this came out in Castaneda's books, although it has been so long since I read them that I am not sure now.

I have also been reading that, evolutionarily, we are designed to oppose parental pressures and seek to differentiate ourselves. Parents, especially narcissistically inclined ones, tend to see this as a bad thing, but maybe it is not, and maybe you should not feel too badly about being different. Just don't try to "change them."

 

[darksai]

Hi everyone. I am new to the Work, now half way through Ouspensky's book. It is exciting to experience moments where I remember self, and I am starting to see more clearly my different centers.

Am I the only one who feels exhausted trying to maintain a state of observation as well as self-remembering throughout the day?

Anyway, just wanted to bring up that to remember self and maintain an awake state at home is incredibly difficult for me. I go home and fall asleep only to wake up on my way to work the next day. I think that at home there are so many automated systems in place, we tend to fall into old patterns most around family.

Anyone else feel the same? Any observations? Any advice?

I can somewhat relate to 'exhausting' tho that was pretty much in relation to being what i call 'body-conscious', which serves a purpose but is not necessarily self-remembering. the taxation could possibly indicate that you're emulating what you think/feel it might be like to be in that 'state' thus expending energy, at least thats what i'd suspect of myself if i felt tired from specifically from self-remembering and self-observation.

i agree with you that family is tough with respect to Work. somewhere before came across the C's i read a quote that went something like "a man can tell if he is enlightened or not by spending 2 weeks with his family". we spend more developmental time with our immediate family than anyone else in our lives, imo, there is in general few things that can instill more subtle, hidden and mechanical responses. even though just a small amount of Work can change our perspective quite profoundly, they remain the same and will see you the same, and in turn always fire the same triggers.
I find a useful method is to listen to your own tone of voice, mentally and vocally and as often as possible at first, and try when conversing with you family to use your 'remembering' voice (dual purpose for sniffing out I's as well); its still not easy tho, but at least the harder it is, the more friction we have to work with :)

 

[Bar Kochba]

Hi everyone. I am new to the Work, now half way through Ouspensky's book. It is exciting to experience moments where I remember self, and I am starting to see more clearly my different centers.

Am I the only one who feels exhausted trying to maintain a state of observation as well as self-remembering throughout the day?

Anyway, just wanted to bring up that to remember self and maintain an awake state at home is incredibly difficult for me. I go home and fall asleep only to wake up on my way to work the next day. I think that at home there are so many automated systems in place, we tend to fall into old patterns most around family.

Anyone else feel the same? Any observations? Any advice?

Are you doing the exercise where you identify which center each action you observe in yourself comes from? Labeling them instinctive, thinking, emotional, etc. This shouldn't be too taxing. Taking on too much at the beginning is not a good idea but everyone does it. Don't get discouraged. Gurdjieff said that it was imperative to conserve energy wherever possible, so that the saved energy could be used for Work. Try to eliminate unnecessary movements, thoughts (daydreams, wishful thinking, etc), and emotions (jealousy, resentment, etc). This does help tremendously with having sharper focus on self-observation.

What is your diet like? This also goes a looong way towards your energy levels and patience. As well as practicing the EE breathing program.

The main thing is to keep on keepin' on. The only lasting results are obtained by slow steady quality Work. :)

 

[abeofarrell]

Thank you everyone for your responses. To be honest, I was worried because in ISOTM G often says that without a "school" it is impossible to progress, but I feel now I can get some support here, and especially I trust you all to be honest to me rather than buffering.

When I say exhausted I am not talking about physical exhaustion.

Actually, I just read the part in ISOTM where G talks about energy to progress. He says that we can only progress as far as we have enough energy. One point he identifies is wasted energy in expressing negative emotions, identifying, considering, idle chatter etc. I feel these are areas I still have a long way to go in and that is where my energy is being wasted.

Actually, with the self-observation, there are still many things I have difficulty in understand which center to assign. And there are some centers I do not know what to assign to. For example, the sexual center seems to be much more than just SEX as its energies are often wrongly used. So what kind of thoughts, actions, dialogue and feelings come from that center? I have only been at this for a short time. Remembering Self is a completely NEW thing for me (consciously that is) and is exciting, but even that in itself leads to a change to the EMOTION CENTER and wastes energy as I get too happy about it. Thus until I can reach a more objective level I won't see as much progress and I want.

Can anyone explain to me in layman's terms the difference between IDENTIFYING and CONSIDERING? It seems to me they are closely related and intertwined. I consider because of how I identify, right? So identifying seems to be when we create a connection between ourselves and something else. Considering is when we create a connection between ourselves and other's view or expectation of us. Is that correct? I am sure after I have read each section several times and progressed more then it will all fall into place. I hope so at least! :/

Regards

 

[darksai]

Thank you everyone for your responses. To be honest, I was worried because in ISOTM G often says that without a "school" it is impossible to progress, but I feel now I can get some support here, and especially I trust you all to be honest to me rather than buffering.

When I say exhausted I am not talking about physical exhaustion.

Actually, I just read the part in ISOTM where G talks about energy to progress. He says that we can only progress as far as we have enough energy. One point he identifies is wasted energy in expressing negative emotions, identifying, considering, idle chatter etc. I feel these are areas I still have a long way to go in and that is where my energy is being wasted.

Actually, with the self-observation, there are still many things I have difficulty in understand which center to assign. And there are some centers I do not know what to assign to. For example, the sexual center seems to be much more than just SEX as its energies are often wrongly used. So what kind of thoughts, actions, dialogue and feelings come from that center? I have only been at this for a short time. Remembering Self is a completely NEW thing for me (consciously that is) and is exciting, but even that in itself leads to a change to the EMOTION CENTER and wastes energy as I get too happy about it. Thus until I can reach a more objective level I won't see as much progress and I want.

Can anyone explain to me in layman's terms the difference between IDENTIFYING and CONSIDERING? It seems to me they are closely related and intertwined. I consider because of how I identify, right? So identifying seems to be when we create a connection between ourselves and something else. Considering is when we create a connection between ourselves and other's view or expectation of us. Is that correct? I am sure after I have read each section several times and progressed more then it will all fall into place. I hope so at least! :/

Regards

at this point, i dont you should worry toooo much about that (being happy), unless you identify it as excess and indulging, in which case i would say make extra effort to 'nip it in the bud'. once you've put the right 'thoughts/feelings' in their place, that is, that the emotional center is working with emotional energy, mental with mental, etc, then i think you'll be in a much better position to decide whats 'wasted' to a particular degree and so forth. you've emptied the puzzle box, now its much better to find the 'grass', 'sky' and 'castle' pieces first before making any serious attempt to construct the whole thing.

identifying, as i understand it, is taking a specific position or attitude towards an A (or even B) influence regardless of its context in the 'world'. in general, in internal considering is looking only at yourself, ie personality, when 'choosing' a course of action. the two a certainly linked, in that identifying breeds internal considering with that which has been identified with; the one is 'structure' the other is 'process', facilitated by the structure. A C's quote comes to mind here: "STO touches all as well as the point of origin, STS only touches the point of origin". what is it that 'touches'? consciousness/awareness.
I hope i've been able to clear things up a bit from the way i understand them :)

 

[Mr. Premise]

Abeofarrell,

Love that quite about enlightenment and spending 2 weeks with your family. As far as G's 'school' quote you can consider this Forum a school in G's sense.

As for the difference between 'considering' and 'identifying', I would say that internal considering is when you are concerned with or considering your own feelings when interacting with others. Identifying can take place whenever you get lost in an activity to the point where you forget yourself but with the added distinction that you start to identify yourself in the activity or in the outcome of that activity.

I am away from my copy of ISOTM right now, so I am sure someone can find a G quote that explains identification better.

 

[abeofarrell]

As for the difference between 'considering' and 'identifying', I would say that internal considering is when you are concerned with or considering your own feelings when interacting with others.

Thank you for that. So does that mean external considering is when you consider other people's feelings before deciding how to act?

 

[manitoban]

As for the difference between 'considering' and 'identifying', I would say that internal considering is when you are concerned with or considering your own feelings when interacting with others.

Thank you for that. So does that mean external considering is when you consider other people's feelings before deciding how to act?

Here is a brief explanation of external consideration that might be of help.

In 4th Way parlance, this is the practice of taking others into account when acting. External considering involves making a realistic evaluation of another's situation and acting in ways which take this into account in a positive sense.

External considering is however not the same thing as being socially polite or considerate, although it may be expressed in this manner.

The key concept is to be aware of and to adapt oneself to the level of being and knowledge of others. Thus, external considering involves for example not talking about things which would simply offend others' beliefs or simply not be understood. External considering relates to an idea of general good will towards the environment, then in the sense of letting the environment be as it wishes and responding to its requests in a manner that honors its right to be as it will.

External considering is rooted in objective awareness of the environment. Its opposite, internal considering, is rooted in attachment to a subjective inner state, to one's own comfort of preconceptions or desires.

External and internal considering are not always outwardly distinguishable, although inwardly they are fundamentally different. One may for example be socially pleasing purely in order to reinforce one's own idea of oneself as a 'good person.' This is internal considering and preoccupation about how others/the self perceive the self.

In some cases, external considering may involve withholding information that is seen as inappropriate, dangerous or simply unlikely to be well received. An internally considering person may also do this, but then again the motive is different.

 

[abeofarrell]

OK, I think I've got it now.

Let me look at 2 examples.

Feeling nostalgic about the place I am in I decide to "chill out" by switching off my self-observation and just vegetate. This is internal considering.

Choosing to be honest to a friend who I know can take the shock is external considering, so would be the decision to NOT say something on facebook which I know will fall on deaf ears.

How does that sound?

 

[Mr. Premise]

I would say that your first example is closer to identifying. Internal consideration usually has more to do with with feeling that we are not properly valued by others. That is how external considering can quickly switch to internal considering. Whenever we are worried about how we are treated or what others think about us we are considering internally. There's a kind of flavor to it of a feeling of injustice to ourselves by the world or by others.

 

[abeofarrell]

okay so it IS kind of connected to the common term "considerate" or "inconsiderate" then.

Basically we should not allow what others think or feel towards/about us to influence the Work.

 

[HiThere]

And there are some centers I do not know what to assign to. For example, the sexual center seems to be much more than just SEX as its energies are often wrongly used. So what kind of thoughts, actions, dialogue and feelings come from that center?

Boris Mouravieff dicusses the sexual centre at length in Gnosis I and II, but I don't have the book handy for quotes. He elaborates on the concept of energy from the sexual centre being used by the other centers and how this manifests itself as producing coarser food for the organsim than would have been the case with balanced centres.