Back to Work...Family troubles...Advice needed...

Am I reading this aright Revolucionar - there are 3 boy; you are the youngest, the 'problem' brother is the middle one and the eldest is viewed by your parents/the family as 'the prodigal son?

If this is correct order of age (and maybe you can confirm?) I think there may be something else also going on here that could also be beneath all this noise apart from the issues being fedback to you on by others here.

I am one of 4 brothers (plus a sister). The dynamics of this never go away - they just find new circumstance to feed on. I'll say no more until you feedback on the above.
Yes, that's correct. I'm the youngest, the eldest is the prodigal son and the middle has disowned us all. I'm really interested in what you have to say about this.
 

Ansuz

Padawan Learner
He's not going to stop being my brother and the love I feel for him is intact, everyone has their reasons for walking away and it's a great lesson to accept others' choices about ourselves.

This is the hardest part, because you have to be humble enough to accept that someone doesn't like you.
Wow......getting more than I bargained for by stopping in to see what condition my condition is in......When I read through the various pages of this forum it's like walking through my own foggy memories and stumbling upon a clearing (just like this in fact) every once in awhile....

I have also lived the other side of this coin, and I have had to distance myself from family members who, from my perspective, are "toxic" because I can be "toxic" to someone else. That's the dynamic friends. This is a relative issue.

Sometimes giving the "because" can be negative and causes more inconvenience. They may feel overwhelmed by our insistence.

Sincerity and respect really favor the terrain of the lesson to be learned.

Greetings and I hope you have a good learning of this lesson.
Oh.....I'm studying! Thank you all for sharing! The old lock down might also result in exponential GROWTH of souls perhaps? Might as well make good use of the "down time" for things of great value.............. Hopefully I'm not being too selfish finding usefulness in others threads for my own Work, it was not my conscious intent I swear it!

I am a brother of four, the second in line by birth but my elder has passed away a few years ago now. My father, my first spiritual mentor (the guy that got me into G in fact), and my physics mentor all passed away last year. The closest senior male figures I looked up too if I may, and I've been left as the oldest male (in my own mind anyway) now. I'm trying to adjust....should probably have just put this in my own thread but I don't want to forget the catalyst here either. I feel like I'm bouncing around in a big old brain that isn't mine....hahaha

My relationship with my younger two brothers basically doesn't exist.....I should try and fix that (without expectations, without steering it, without imposing my will, still I think it might be worth looking into) I think....

Note to Self...There goes another chunk of "baggage" that can be let go of.....funny how much work the Work actually is.....each little piece shifts my frequency responses and surely resonance points....
 

Michael B-C

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Yes, that's correct. I'm the youngest, the eldest is the prodigal son and the middle has disowned us all. I'm really interested in what you have to say about this.
This is quite simplistic - but sometimes the truth hides in simple ways. The old saying two's company, and three's a crowd comes to mind. The eldest often holds a very particular place in parents affections - even if he is solid and dependable, carrying the weight of eldest brother or if he rebels and breaks free, he's always oldest brother - teh first born. And its a kind of sacred untouchable position. The youngest meanwhile (and a lot depends on the dynamic between 1 and 2 and parents before 3 turns up = number of years before 3) can become 'the baby' of the whole maturing family - like a new love - the final child - the one everyone is supposed to dote on (plus the parents are maybe that bit older, that bit less flustered as parents and easier going with the child... these are of course generalizations, but you get the general point).

But the one in the middle can get forgotten. Especially if he's tricky and say the youngest is bright, clever, easy and brings new joy...

Of course there are hundreds of variables that could change any of this...

But your posts rang big bells with me.

I'll share a little on my family dynamic - 4 boys and a youngest girl so the middle one - no 3 boy - with two either side - became the lost sheep of the family. He couldn't fit in with my eldest brothers and so he took out his anger/jealousy on me and in some ways my sister. This is not about me so I wont go on too much...

but basically he was always at sea by being in between somewhere and somewhere else that he was being - or felt - judged against...

he in effect had no sibling family... and no love coming his way from his parents either...

So he invented himself as larger than life to grab attention

didn't go off the rails like you seem to suggest but very close to on so many occasions - and we all viewed him as 'the rogue' of the family...

and he still absolutely cannot deal with his repressed emotions...

absolutely will not face anything...

everything about him is covered in manufactured, copping personality from childhood and he's shed not a teaspoonof it in over 60 years of life...

he and I don't speak anymore - not for 5 years really... but this state has been of and on ever since i got married and hat kids (20 years)

I love him - but only from afar

I've learned painfully he's really dangerous... he likes to destroy any sign of happiness or possibility that might grow up from within the family that refused him a place at the table...

and damaged people who will not heal are really dangerous (especially if you share blood)

He is full of jealousy I gather (from my other siblings) about the fact that I made a life (I was meant to be a failure you see, to make him feel better), I got my name in newspapers (!!!) and had two kids and a 30 year relationship... (he's divorced twice)

but you see - it all started when he ended up in the middle...

does any of this ring any bells?

(excuse typing style - its late and if I don't do this now this way I may forget tomorrow and you deserve a quick answer)

I don't know if that helps...
 

nicklebleu

The Living Force
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He is full of jealousy I gather (from my other siblings) about the fact that I made a life (I was meant to be a failure you see, to make him feel better), I got my name in newspapers (!!!) and had two kids and a 30 year relationship... (he's divorced twice)

but you see - it all started when he ended up in the middle...
I think this is a very pertinent point. Again a little illustration from my own family dynamic growing up:

I am the oldest (and only male sibling) in the family, followed by two sisters. As Michael describes, I had the special position of ‘first-born son’. This became even more so, after my father died when I was 15 (I was supposed to take over the role of my father, but I rebelled). My youngest sister was always easy going, exterovert, pretty etc. My middle sister is full of hate, jealousy and spite, the lost kid in the family, caught between the ‘first-born son’ and the ‘pretty, smart youngest sister’. I also have terminated contact with her due to her toxicity. But like Michael, I still love her - but only from afar.

Again, this is just another illustration of what Michael said, it’s also not about me, I merely wanted to give the example to show that this pattern is quite wide-spread - I think that Michael is on to something here.

How does that sit with you, Revolutioncar?
 
This is quite simplistic - but sometimes the truth hides in simple ways. The old saying two's company, and three's a crowd comes to mind. The eldest often holds a very particular place in parents affections - even if he is solid and dependable, carrying the weight of eldest brother or if he rebels and breaks free, he's always oldest brother - teh first born. And its a kind of sacred untouchable position. The youngest meanwhile (and a lot depends on the dynamic between 1 and 2 and parents before 3 turns up = number of years before 3) can become 'the baby' of the whole maturing family - like a new love - the final child - the one everyone is supposed to dote on (plus the parents are maybe that bit older, that bit less flustered as parents and easier going with the child... these are of course generalizations, but you get the general point).

But the one in the middle can get forgotten. Especially if he's tricky and say the youngest is bright, clever, easy and brings new joy...

Of course there are hundreds of variables that could change any of this...

But your posts rang big bells with me.

I'll share a little on my family dynamic - 4 boys and a youngest girl so the middle one - no 3 boy - with two either side - became the lost sheep of the family. He couldn't fit in with my eldest brothers and so he took out his anger/jealousy on me and in some ways my sister. This is not about me so I wont go on too much...

but basically he was always at sea by being in between somewhere and somewhere else that he was being - or felt - judged against...

he in effect had no sibling family... and no love coming his way from his parents either...

So he invented himself as larger than life to grab attention

didn't go off the rails like you seem to suggest but very close to on so many occasions - and we all viewed him as 'the rogue' of the family...

and he still absolutely cannot deal with his repressed emotions...

absolutely will not face anything...

everything about him is covered in manufactured, copping personality from childhood and he's shed not a teaspoonof it in over 60 years of life...

he and I don't speak anymore - not for 5 years really... but this state has been of and on ever since i got married and hat kids (20 years)

I love him - but only from afar

I've learned painfully he's really dangerous... he likes to destroy any sign of happiness or possibility that might grow up from within the family that refused him a place at the table...

and damaged people who will not heal are really dangerous (especially if you share blood)

He is full of jealousy I gather (from my other siblings) about the fact that I made a life (I was meant to be a failure you see, to make him feel better), I got my name in newspapers (!!!) and had two kids and a 30 year relationship... (he's divorced twice)

but you see - it all started when he ended up in the middle...

does any of this ring any bells?

(excuse typing style - its late and if I don't do this now this way I may forget tomorrow and you deserve a quick answer)

I don't know if that helps...
I think this is a very pertinent point. Again a little illustration from my own family dynamic growing up:

I am the oldest (and only male sibling) in the family, followed by two sisters. As Michael describes, I had the special position of ‘first-born son’. This became even more so, after my father died when I was 15 (I was supposed to take over the role of my father, but I rebelled). My youngest sister was always easy going, exterovert, pretty etc. My middle sister is full of hate, jealousy and spite, the lost kid in the family, caught between the ‘first-born son’ and the ‘pretty, smart youngest sister’. I also have terminated contact with her due to her toxicity. But like Michael, I still love her - but only from afar.

Again, this is just another illustration of what Michael said, it’s also not about me, I merely wanted to give the example to show that this pattern is quite wide-spread - I think that Michael is on to something here.

How does that sit with you, Revolutioncar?
Oh, definitely. It's something that I had in the back of my mind but never really considered it seriously.
Our eldest and I are both musicians. The eldest went down the stereotypical self-destructive rock star path which never got him anywhere so he was always mooching of my parents and my middle brother (me too a bit, but I was too young most of that time). Now he got his life in order, to the extent that is possible in his situation, anyway.
I on the other hand have dropped out of college to focus on the music and I struggled financially for some years, but eventually I got it together and now have my own business in audio production and I also got married and got a son 10 months ago.
At the same time, the middle brother was always doing everything that was expected of him, did great in school, finished college with flying colours, got a job and has a steady girlfriend who was also successful, but they seem unable to move ahead in life. They still live in the same apartment they started off in after college, they don't have kids and seem not to want any and they have lots of money and keep talking about moving out of town, buying a plot of land, but can't seem to decide on anything.
From what I gathered from him and my observations of certain situations, he's basically jaded over the fact that I have succeeded despite my fancy free attitude. It's like in his mind I was supposed to remain his kid brother who doesn't know what to do with his life. Once I got my things in order, he became more distant. Then we had a falling out over a completely banal issue and then came the house affair. After that it all went downhill fast. I talked to him last summer after no contact for two years. He's angry at the whole family because he was always the responsible one and feels he got a raw deal. He started pulling out stuff from 12 years ago to prove how I'm no good. But reading between the lines I could tell that his girlfriend had filled his head to push him over the edge so to speak.
In any case, it seems to be a multitude of factors, but definitely the undercurrent of it all seems to be the middle brother syndrome. It's all so sad really, but we've got to live with it. It's hardest for my parents who feel responsible for all of this and are deeply hurt by his refusal to even talk to them now.

Thanks guy for your input. this really helped. If I had known this before, I might have averted this situation altogether.
 

Michael B-C

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It's like in his mind I was supposed to remain his kid brother who doesn't know what to do with his life.
can't seem to decide on anything.
Then we had a falling out over a completely banal issue and then came the house affair. After that it all went downhill fast.
He's angry at the whole family because he was always the responsible one and feels he got a raw deal.
pulling out stuff from 12 years ago to prove how I'm no good.
I've pulled out the above but there's a lot in what you've said there. People can get permanently frozen in an emotional state from way back - it can even crystallize in a particular year or month - even over the course of a day - one they never get to remember. It's as if some confirmatory instances can create a total iron feedback loop that goes on to last a lifetime unless they unfix it. It sounds to me as if somewhere in the 'pain' of his childhood or adolescence this happened to your brother - and you were in some way connected to it (it can even happen when a sibling looks down in to the cot at a new born rival and says quietly to themselves NOT YOU! NEVER YOU!)

It's not as simple as this but I suspect your brother is insanely, bitterly envious of you (remember the difference between jealousy and envy?) and he has always coped with this by having you as the useless, never successful junior who had to know his place - beneath him. You're now a jumped up so and so who knows it all and has a life - out of what! Messing around!? He was studious and went about showing mum and dad why they really should have loved him more... or loved him at all...

You are meant to be say still 9 and him - what - 13? That dynamic has never shifted - and you shifting by breaking this old worn out narrative really p***s him off!

If you ever want to close this gap (he most likely can't) you would have to practice serious external consideration. You would need to accept to some degree some form of this role he wants you to remain in - to allow him to once again feel 'safe' with you. If after a long while of doing this and you could repair what has gone on of late between you as adults, you would have to find a private space together, take out photos of him say as a child and encourage him to speak about what it felt for him being middle 2 out of 3. Let him know you recognize it must have come with some tough demands. Whatever... make space for him to vent and clean out somehow... Maybe, then maybe something might happen. Don't perhaps count on it and certainly don't try to trap him/force the issue... and as I say you would need to use serious external consideration (and really careful moderation of your own internal consideration as well) to stand a chance of breaking this curse he and you are under.. I don't say I recommend it but I'm just suggesting one way you would make a difference... but you would have to do a lot of bending at the beginning and that might be a cost to you too far...

Perhaps its not worth it. But I suspect only you have the awareness potential to make the first, difficult, careful steps to bridge this canyon (whilst being always conscious of your own limitations and boundaries) . Because I fear it will only widen with age...

You've posted here about it - so it matters. But does it matter enough to you to be the one who is able and willing to give ground in the off chance it could be fixed... your call. No judgement here.

good luck.
 

Michael B-C

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Just for clarification; when I suggested Envy that's just my guess from what you are saying. But he could equally have been Jealous - of a particular relationship you had with one or other parent say that he couldn't get access to in that way... Might be good to think about the different possibilities here...
 

nicklebleu

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Perhaps its not worth it. But I suspect only you have the awareness potential to make the first, difficult, careful steps to bridge this canyon (whilst being always conscious of your own limitations and boundaries) . Because I fear it will only widen with age...
Well said - I think it’s the crux of the matter!

In my case I won’t be taking this road, as I would have to bend to her view of things too much. Sometimes I think that I should do it, for my nephew’s sake (her son), but still the price seems too high. Maybe I’ll change my mind in the future, but unlikely.

Again, this is not about me - just to highlight the fact that it’s a personal decision that has multiple dimensions, so only you can decide whether or not to go down that difficult road. And as MBC said, he might not even be able to shift his view enough to engage in a measure of toning down his anger and eny enough to be able to open the communication lines enough for this process to have a fighting chance.
 
It's not as simple as this but I suspect your brother is insanely, bitterly envious of you (remember the difference between jealousy and envy?) and he has always coped with this by having you as the useless, never successful junior who had to know his place - beneath him. You're now a jumped up so and so who knows it all and has a life - out of what! Messing around!? He was studious and went about showing mum and dad why they really should have loved him more... or loved him at all...
I feel there's a lot of truth to this. I know that he was always envious of me for having the balls to be a musician and stand on stage. He's also talented musically, but he just doesn't have the psychological constitution required to do this work. I even think he thought he was better at it than me. He is a good singer I must say and we had some great nights singing together. Ah, good times...
You are meant to be say still 9 and him - what - 13? That dynamic has never shifted - and you shifting by breaking this old worn out narrative really p***s him off!
Yeh, I have noticed him getting pissy after I met my wife, who was incidentally more successful than his girlfriend. I feel her jealousy also bears a lot on the whole matter, because my brother was never a materialist, whereas she always struck me as one.
If you ever want to close this gap (he most likely can't) you would have to practice serious external consideration. You would need to accept to some degree some form of this role he wants you to remain in - to allow him to once again feel 'safe' with you. If after a long while of doing this and you could repair what has gone on of late between you as adults, you would have to find a private space together, take out photos of him say as a child and encourage him to speak about what it felt for him being middle 2 out of 3. Let him know you recognize it must have come with some tough demands. Whatever... make space for him to vent and clean out somehow... Maybe, then maybe something might happen. Don't perhaps count on it and certainly don't try to trap him/force the issue... and as I say you would need to use serious external consideration (and really careful moderation of your own internal consideration as well) to stand a chance of breaking this curse he and you are under.. I don't say I recommend it but I'm just suggesting one way you would make a difference... but you would have to do a lot of bending at the beginning and that might be a cost to you too far...

Perhaps its not worth it. But I suspect only you have the awareness potential to make the first, difficult, careful steps to bridge this canyon (whilst being always conscious of your own limitations and boundaries) . Because I fear it will only widen with age...

You've posted here about it - so it matters. But does it matter enough to you to be the one who is able and willing to give ground in the off chance it could be fixed... your call. No judgement here.
I would be ready to do this, but I don't think it would work, at least for the time being.
And as MBC said, he might not even be able to shift his view enough to engage in a measure of toning down his anger and eny enough to be able to open the communication lines enough for this process to have a fighting chance
And this is why it wouldn't work. I mean he didn't even answer my parents' phone call a week ago when they called him to say happy birthday. He doesn't want to let anyone back in, which he said to me explicitly last year on the phone. I guess I can just bide my time until the opportunity arises. Hopefully, I can tune my machine sufficiently by then to be able to work through the interaction without "losing it". Possibly something also changes in his circumstances by then. Maybe his girlfriend will finally show her true colours, but he would be too proud to admit the mistakes he made. When I talked to him last, it sounded like he was immaculate like Jesus and I was freaking Judas, or something. Time will tell.
 

Mariama

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He doesn't want to let anyone back in, which he said to me explicitly last year on the phone. I guess I can just bide my time until the opportunity arises. Hopefully, I can tune my machine sufficiently by then to be able to work through the interaction without "losing it". Possibly something also changes in his circumstances by then. Maybe his girlfriend will finally show her true colours, but he would be too proud to admit the mistakes he made. When I talked to him last, it sounded like he was immaculate like Jesus and I was freaking Judas, or something. Time will tell.
Biding your time is an excellent idea, combined with non-anticipation and faith. I received this piece of advice a few months ago in regards to my family circumstances and it really, really helped me. It made everything less heavy and complicated, if you will.

In my case I won’t be taking this road, as I would have to bend to her view of things too much. Sometimes I think that I should do it, for my nephew’s sake (her son), but still the price seems too high. Maybe I’ll change my mind in the future, but unlikely.
I am reminded of that quote in one of the narcissism books (I can't remember which one at the top of my head) to not go back to the poisoned well. A few of my family members represent that poisoned well, and although I have done my best to communicate with them, which would be in my mother's interest, it is not feasible at this point. So (for now) I am steering clear of them, although I will leave the door open, even if I don't expect anything noteworthy. I wouldn't want to constrict all these possibilities that the Universe offers us.
 

Obi

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Most interesting thread!

Having gone through a similar situation last December with my sister and her husband in the background, an apartment from my parents, I learned a lot from reading this.

I did not wait long to call my sister, did it on the same day as the situation happened, it helped a lot to defuse the tension. My wife's input into the situation helped a lot. She told me to try to see the entire situation with the apartment transfer from my sister's point of view (external consideration part) and I went for a long walk to think this through and was able to see what my sister went through with this entire affair and this allowed me to call her, apologize to her for my outburst, she apologized back and pretty much confirmed what I figured was her perspective on the whole affair. All I did was putting aside my hurt feelings of being left out of the apartment transfer and understand she was dragged into the entire situation by our father. I just forced myself to look at the whole situation from her perspective and put my subjective feelings aside even if for a brief moment. And despite the fact that our communication is infrequent, the communication line is open. There is still her husband who does not particularly like me (which is fine by me) and this is the main reason she limits the communication in order to avoid tension. It was her choice to marry this guy and I respect it and adjust the level of communication to what she finds comfortable.

In hindsight, the way the family property was divided by my father makes perfect sense, despite the fact that the apartment transfer was done behind my back (and I got over this hurt), but she got that apartment (not fully for free as she had to take a small mortgage to pay it off to the Municipality) worth 500K+, whereas I got a house in the country worth 300K with the stipulation that she is gonna take care of my parents more, since I live aboard and the house I got is also far from where my parents live. So, I visit them once a month and take care of them far less (apart from daily phone calls) and she visits them weekly and takes care of them (and so does her husband) a lot more. That's why it is fair she got more, as she is expected to do more as well (by my parents).

Now, if I got what I wanted (half of the apartment) and she took care of them more than me, I would definitely feel uncomfortable with that and then my father would have to give her half of the house I own now which would force me to buy out her half, get a mortgage and would put me into debt. Whereas now I own the house and I honestly do not need the apartment. Taking care of one more property would only be an extra burden. So, the whole division worked out the best for us and I fully agree with my father's division. The only downside was the lack of communication on my parent's side about their intentions. I would most likely agree to how they wanted to divide the property they own and the whole drama would not have happened. But nobody is perfect and these are all lessons for those involved.
 

Michael B-C

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He doesn't want to let anyone back in, which he said to me explicitly last year on the phone.
When I talked to him last, it sounded like he was immaculate like Jesus and I was freaking Judas, or something. Time will tell.
I went for a long walk to think this through and was able to see what my sister went through with this entire affair and this allowed me to call her, apologize to her for my outburst, she apologized back and pretty much confirmed what I figured was her perspective on the whole affair.
All I did was putting aside my hurt feelings of being left out of the apartment transfer and understand she was dragged into the entire situation by our father.
I just forced myself to look at the whole situation from her perspective and put my subjective feelings aside even if for a brief moment.
It was her choice to marry this guy and I respect it and adjust the level of communication to what she finds comfortable.
But nobody is perfect and these are all lessons for those involved.
Revolucionar can you see the difference between your thinking on the matter and Obi's?

In what I've highlighted of your post, have you noted his 'right' not to let anyone back in. Sometimes the only answer for the person is to separate for a while and make a life of their own, however long it takes (maybe a lifetime if that's the choice...), away from the source of the pain. I would say this needs some serious contemplation by you and even respecting going forward, though not at the expense of building up your resentment.

Just be careful of not taking on the solo roll of injured party here. We all can all do that a lot (I'm all in the right = therefore they're all in the wrong). Its not that simple and that's an example of internal consideration/self justification. Sounds like projection - did he actually say that?

Notice how Obi made space to see things from his sister's perspective, no matter how difficult. Notice the words 'respect', 'put aside' and 'adjust'... also maybe the fact that by taking on this perspective and apologizing first, Obi made a safe enough space for her to follow suit and she was heard without any attempt after to deny the validity of her feelings.

If we take the C's advice that all there are is lessons - then at this pivotal time not learning the lessons available for you might be a price not worth paying.
 
Revolucionar can you see the difference between your thinking on the matter and Obi's?

In what I've highlighted of your post, have you noted his 'right' not to let anyone back in. Sometimes the only answer for the person is to separate for a while and make a life of their own, however long it takes (maybe a lifetime if that's the choice...), away from the source of the pain. I would say this needs some serious contemplation by you and even respecting going forward, though not at the expense of building up your resentment.

Just be careful of not taking on the solo roll of injured party here. We all can all do that a lot (I'm all in the right = therefore they're all in the wrong). Its not that simple and that's an example of internal consideration/self justification. Sounds like projection - did he actually say that?

Notice how Obi made space to see things from his sister's perspective, no matter how difficult. Notice the words 'respect', 'put aside' and 'adjust'... also maybe the fact that by taking on this perspective and apologizing first, Obi made a safe enough space for her to follow suit and she was heard without any attempt after to deny the validity of her feelings.

If we take the C's advice that all there are is lessons - then at this pivotal time not learning the lessons available for you might be a price not worth paying.
I actually did call him just like Obi, with every intention of seeing things from his perspective and I don't feel like an injured party at all. I'm just sad that things turned out the way they did. I absolutely respect my brother's right to excercise free will and not talk to us anymore. I called him and was very humble and kept being externaly considerate while he just let me have it. I ended the conversation by saying that if he ever changed his mind, I would be there. Sorry for being brief, but I'm just short on time.
 
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