Catalonia Independence Referendum - Democracy or Unity?

[idiaysan]

Catalan separatists have declared independence. Spain's PM responds by stating 'rule of law will be restored in Catalonia.' I have a feeling this will not end well, perhaps that's the plan?

https://www.rt.com/news/407960-catalonia-spain-independence-parliament/

The Spanish Senate voted in favor of the activation of article 155, which removes the autonomy of the region and the local executive power. That was happening at the same time as the Catalan Parliament was voting in favor of independence. At this point this can certainly not end too well, but I'm not even sure there's a plan behind all this or if it's just another manifestation of chaos on the planet.

The Parliament of the Generalitat declares independence and the Spanish Senate approves to apply article 155 of the Constitution:

If an Autonomous Community does not comply with the obligations imposed by the Constitution or other laws or acts in a way that seriously undermines the general interest of Spain, the Government, upon request to the President of the Autonomous Community and, in the case of not being served , with the approval by an absolute majority of the Senate, may take the necessary measures to oblige the latter to comply with those obligations or to protect said general interest.

For the execution of the measures foreseen in the previous section, the Government may give instructions to all the authorities of the Autonomous Communities.​

We will see what is going to happen, that article is impossible to do what Rajoy asked to run the Senate. Article 155 does not authorize the Spanish government to cease all government of the Generalitat, that same article does not authorize the Parliament of the Generalitat to be intervened.

The point is that being something so obvious, why do they still insist on their application?
Why does no Catalan politician refer to this? there is the secret of what a relationship of power is.

When declaring independence, Puigdemont wants to become a martyr of the Catalan cause believing that they have saved the honor and the Spanish government with Rajoy in the head is overcome by the whole situation. But they can not turn back, but the whole people (independence people on the one hand and against independence on the other) would be put on them.

The worst is what will come later, if finally the Generalitat appeals 155 to Europe, and the Strasbourg court declares it void, the constitution provides with Article 116 the exception states of alarm and of siege and that will entail very serious problems.

 

[Nević Nenad]

Catalan separatists have declared independence. Spain's PM responds by stating 'rule of law will be restored in Catalonia.' I have a feeling this will not end well, perhaps that's the plan?

https://www.rt.com/news/407960-catalonia-spain-independence-parliament/

The Spanish Senate voted in favor of the activation of article 155, which removes the autonomy of the region and the local executive power. That was happening at the same time as the Catalan Parliament was voting in favor of independence. At this point this can certainly not end too well, but I'm not even sure there's a plan behind all this or if it's just another manifestation of chaos on the planet.

All of them reminds me of the children playing some game which is very interesting to them. They both really enjoy it. Both sides are in their roles, one "wanting freedom" and all that blah-blah, and the other trying to be serious and warlike. At the same time both are not ready to have war for what they want, or any serious fight for it whatsoever. Perfect image of the modern western society - irresponsible children.

 

[idiaysan]

Catalan separatists have declared independence. Spain's PM responds by stating 'rule of law will be restored in Catalonia.' I have a feeling this will not end well, perhaps that's the plan?

https://www.rt.com/news/407960-catalonia-spain-independence-parliament/

The Spanish Senate voted in favor of the activation of article 155, which removes the autonomy of the region and the local executive power. That was happening at the same time as the Catalan Parliament was voting in favor of independence. At this point this can certainly not end too well, but I'm not even sure there's a plan behind all this or if it's just another manifestation of chaos on the planet.

The Parliament of the Generalitat declares independence and the Spanish Senate approves to apply article 155 of the Constitution:

If an Autonomous Community does not comply with the obligations imposed by the Constitution or other laws or acts in a way that seriously undermines the general interest of Spain, the Government, upon request to the President of the Autonomous Community and, in the case of not being served , with the approval by an absolute majority of the Senate, may take the necessary measures to oblige the latter to comply with those obligations or to protect said general interest.

For the execution of the measures foreseen in the previous section, the Government may give instructions to all the authorities of the Autonomous Communities.​

We will see what is going to happen, that article is impossible to do what Rajoy asked to run the Senate. Article 155 does not authorize the Spanish government to cease all government of the Generalitat, that same article does not authorize the Parliament of the Generalitat to be intervened.

The point is that being something so obvious, why do they still insist on their application?
Why does no Catalan politician refer to this? there is the secret of what a relationship of power is.

When declaring independence, Puigdemont wants to become a martyr of the Catalan cause believing that they have saved the honor and the Spanish government with Rajoy in the head is overcome by the whole situation. But they can not turn back, but the whole people (independence people on the one hand and against independence on the other) would be put on them.

The worst is what will come later, if finally the Generalitat appeals 155 to Europe, and the Strasbourg court declares it void, the constitution provides with Article 116 the exception states of alarm and of siege and that will entail very serious problems.

this video is in Spanish, but it is very illuminating of the current situation on the declaration of the independent Republic of Catalonia and it explains well what I said in the thread.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5VlhkhLG8U&t=8s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5VlhkhLG8U&t=8s

 

[Joe]

The Parliament of the Generalitat declares independence and the Spanish Senate approves to apply article 155 of the Constitution:

If an Autonomous Community does not comply with the obligations imposed by the Constitution or other laws or acts in a way that seriously undermines the general interest of Spain, the Government, upon request to the President of the Autonomous Community and, in the case of not being served , with the approval by an absolute majority of the Senate, may take the necessary measures to oblige the latter to comply with those obligations or to protect said general interest.

For the execution of the measures foreseen in the previous section, the Government may give instructions to all the authorities of the Autonomous Communities.​

We will see what is going to happen, that article is impossible to do what Rajoy asked to run the Senate. Article 155 does not authorize the Spanish government to cease all government of the Generalitat, that same article does not authorize the Parliament of the Generalitat to be intervened.

The point is that being something so obvious, why do they still insist on their application?
Why does no Catalan politician refer to this? there is the secret of what a relationship of power is.

If you read the wording, it is so general that it effectively DOES allow Madrid to do whatever it deems necessary.

 

[SocietyoftheSpectacle]

I think Article 155 was actually intended for the situation where proportional voting led to too many parties being unable to rule effectively.


Interesting that it is taken for Granted that Democracy no longer means the rule of the people,
and the Authority of the constitution itself is never questioned.

But then the Democratic formation of the Republic in 1933 is the elephant in the room,
that the last King shot presumably,

I think Rajoy's best Bet is to Allow the Referendum to be held Officially.

Do what he should have done before ,
and run a positive campaign.

 

[idiaysan]

The Parliament of the Generalitat declares independence and the Spanish Senate approves to apply article 155 of the Constitution:

If an Autonomous Community does not comply with the obligations imposed by the Constitution or other laws or acts in a way that seriously undermines the general interest of Spain, the Government, upon request to the President of the Autonomous Community and, in the case of not being served , with the approval by an absolute majority of the Senate, may take the necessary measures to oblige the latter to comply with those obligations or to protect said general interest.

For the execution of the measures foreseen in the previous section, the Government may give instructions to all the authorities of the Autonomous Communities.​

We will see what is going to happen, that article is impossible to do what Rajoy asked to run the Senate. Article 155 does not authorize the Spanish government to cease all government of the Generalitat, that same article does not authorize the Parliament of the Generalitat to be intervened.

The point is that being something so obvious, why do they still insist on their application?
Why does no Catalan politician refer to this? there is the secret of what a relationship of power is.

If you read the wording, it is so general that it effectively DOES allow Madrid to do whatever it deems necessary.

I agree Joe, the wording of Article 155 is very general and ambiguous, I suppose the legislators wanted it to be flexible enough to be able to be applied in a variety of situations, and it is precisely this inconsistency that enables the Government to make a calculated and gradual use of its scope.

But it is also a double-edged sword, because to avoid its discretionary use on the part of the State, it has very limited consequences to the context, this law is bound to a strict proportionality in the measures that are adopted and if these were considered by the Government intervened, inappropriate or inadequate, could request their challenge to a higher court, which in this case would be Europe.

We'll have to wait and see

 

[Joe]

I agree Joe, the wording of Article 155 is very general and ambiguous, I suppose the legislators wanted it to be flexible enough to be able to be applied in a variety of situations, and it is precisely this inconsistency that enables the Government to make a calculated and gradual use of its scope.

But it is also a double-edged sword, because to avoid its discretionary use on the part of the State, it has very limited consequences to the context, this law is bound to a strict proportionality in the measures that are adopted and if these were considered by the Government intervened, inappropriate or inadequate, could request their challenge to a higher court, which in this case would be Europe.

We'll have to wait and see

Yep, we'll have to wait and see as you say. It's true that Article 155 does not allow the central government to directly rule an autonomous region, only to "oblige the region's government to obey orders" and take any measures to make them do so (or words to that effect). But what does the Madrid government think it is going to achieve by having new elections in Dec? How can they avoid the separatist parties from winning back their seats unless they ban those parties and/or arrest the leaders and MPs? If they do so, how is it going to look to the rest of Europe and the world? Will they be able to spin it in the media?

For now I'm ready to bet that Madrid already has plans in place to make the independence-minded Catalans consider how much they are willing to pay and suffer for their dream of a separate nation. I'd say bus loads of 'nationalist' demonstrators have been moved in to Catalan cities and are ready to provoke violent clashes with independence crowds. They probably hope to provoke a big enough crisis so that they can intervene and 'restore law and order' and from there hope the whole thing blows over and Catalan forget about independence or accept something less. Time will tell.

 

[Garuda]

Yep, we'll have to wait and see as you say. It's true that Article 155 does not allow the central government to directly rule an autonomous region, only to "oblige the region's government to obey orders" and take any measures to make them do so (or words to that effect). But what does the Madrid government think it is going to achieve by having new elections in Dec? How can they avoid the separatist parties from winning back their seats unless they ban those parties and/or arrest the leaders and MPs? If they do so, how is it going to look to the rest of Europe and the world? Will they be able to spin it in the media?

For now I'm ready to bet that Madrid already has plans in place to make the independence-minded Catalans consider how much they are willing to pay and suffer for their dream of a separate nation. I'd say bus loads of 'nationalist' demonstrators have been moved in to Catalan cities and are ready to provoke violent clashes with independence crowds. They probably hope to provoke a big enough crisis so that they can intervene and 'restore law and order' and from there hope the whole thing blows over and Catalan forget about independence or accept something less. Time will tell.

Joe, I don't think the spanish government is sending buses to Catalonia. I think they expect the non-independent people who live in Catalonia to vote this time and not to be afraid of the Antifa guys. It is the first time in Spain since 1975 that the spanish people go out with their national flags and the national soccer team is not playing.

 

[l apprenti de forgeron]

Reply 37 of I apprenti di forgeron.

"This is a policy issue, and Spain is one of the oldest nations in the world -a nation with 500 years of territorial and cultural unity"

---------------------- ------------------ ---------- ----------

What is now known as Spain or Spanish country, exists only politically, with its legal consequences that implies, when they joined Catalonia, Castilla, Aragon, Navarre, Galicia, Granada, Andalusia, Asturias, etc., some of those little kingdoms that were in conflict.

The Iberians are the same ethnic group. Look at the following (in Spanish):
_http: //www.publico.es/ciencias/genes-vascos-no-son-diferentes.html

Of course, the Iberians have fought among themselves - just like the "Native Americans" in Mexico and other areas -, conforming different kingdoms, but as Spaniards they have political, cultural and territorial unity since more than 500 years ago. And most likely, before generating the "Romance" languages, all the Iberians spoke Basque - the Catholic priests have played an important role in setting aside that common language-. It's an interesting topic, if you want we could open another thread to talk about that.

So somewhere it feels as though someone is pushing in one particular direction just to see what would happen, what people’s reaction would be, to then export it elsewhere. There has been a lot of talk about this movement infecting other regions in Europe. And perhaps I’m being too conspiratorial, but I can totally see how that serves the PTB.

Everything that the Catalan leaders are doing (most of which are millionaire oligarchs) is very suspicious: the rush, the cowardice disguising itself as heroic and the risk of being imprisoned seems to indicate that they are pressured by international elites that want to divide Spain in small states. It would not be strange that this new Catalan state should become a neoliberal "caliphate" where pedophilia and other depredations against humanity are legalized. Why not? If the elites can already create states where more than half of the population of the region does not agree, then in that same state they will be able to create the most ponerologyc laws. The way to achieve power then conditions the way it is exercised. And obviously that Catalan state will be completely fascist with the millions who want to remain Spanish - like new Palestinians in a new Israel-.

Yep, we'll have to wait and see as you say. It's true that Article 155 does not allow the central government to directly rule an autonomous region, only to "oblige the region's government to obey orders" and take any measures to make them do so (or words to that effect). But what does the Madrid government think it is going to achieve by having new elections in Dec? How can they avoid the separatist parties from winning back their seats unless they ban those parties and/or arrest the leaders and MPs? If they do so, how is it going to look to the rest of Europe and the world? Will they be able to spin it in the media?

For now I'm ready to bet that Madrid already has plans in place to make the independence-minded Catalans consider how much they are willing to pay and suffer for their dream of a separate nation. I'd say bus loads of 'nationalist' demonstrators have been moved in to Catalan cities and are ready to provoke violent clashes with independence crowds. They probably hope to provoke a big enough crisis so that they can intervene and 'restore law and order' and from there hope the whole thing blows over and Catalan forget about independence or accept something less. Time will tell.

Yes, but maybe it's early to that thousands of Spaniards go to fight against the separatists in Catalonia. Because Catalonia really has nothing in common with Scotland: half of the Catalans do not want independence, and Spain is not a union of separate kingdoms, not even a federation. So the declaration of independence of the separatist oligarchs is a declaration of war by just signing a paper. Today Catalan society is split in two, and the immediate danger is a civil war between Catalans: the Spanish vs the separatists. Of course, the Catalan Spaniards will have more reinforcements from other Spaniards if chaos breaks loose.
The great hope of the Spanish republicans -republicanism that is forbidden by the monarchist and separatist parties- is that the central government and separatist autonomy fall, then being able to open a period of collective political freedom to make a new constitution and conquer a modern, presidential and democratic republic for all the Spanish nation.

 

[Gaby]

The Iberians are the same ethnic group.

For me it was a surprise to realize how different Spaniards consider themselves to be between each other. It is true that culturally speaking, there are clear differences. You can drive all the way from Valencia to the Basque Country and notice distinct differences in the geography, culture and local dialects. Nevertheless, genetically speaking, Iberians are not that different after all. I said this over a conversation based on genetic markers used to study ancestries and nobody agreed. Yet there you have it, they're the "same people". It's like the Ukrainians and the Russians. Genetically speaking, they're brothers.

It think it might be easier for an average French person to accept they're the same people because there was a "linguicide" committed and after the 18th century or so, French became the official language. Previously, every region had their own dialect that got systematically eliminated with the creation of France. Over the last 10 years or so, some regions are re-incorporating their former dialects in language institutes and whenever they can, or so it seemed to me. Apologies if I missed the details. I studied French in a French University and those were the words of my teacher: "linguicide" - assassination of languages (the local dialects).

In Spain, each dialect is protected by the Constitution and it became normal to be at least bilingual. People speak their dialect and Spanish. It used to be that French was the next language to study at school, but now it is English.

I always had the impression that in the Catalan region, it was more radical. People had a strong identification with their dialect. Some people would continue speaking Catalan even when aware that they' were talking to a Latin American doctor and/or continue speaking Catalan even if they were in a non Catalan region in Spain. That is simply not courteous for the person who doesn't speak their dialect. I have lived in 4 different regions in Spain and only had this happening with Catalonians.

Thus, each population can identify more with their pathocratic elite than with each other based on cultural differences and there are no genetic markers to distinguish psychopaths from normal people in ancestry studies.

Yes, but maybe it's early to that thousands of Spaniards go to fight against the separatists in Catalonia. Because Catalonia really has nothing in common with Scotland: half of the Catalans do not want independence, and Spain is not a union of separate kingdoms, not even a federation. So the declaration of independence of the separatist oligarchs is a declaration of war by just signing a paper. Today Catalan society is split in two, and the immediate danger is a civil war between Catalans: the Spanish vs the separatists. Of course, the Catalan Spaniards will have more reinforcements from other Spaniards if chaos breaks loose.
The great hope of the Spanish republicans -republicanism that is forbidden by the monarchist and separatist parties- is that the central government and separatist autonomy fall, then being able to open a period of collective political freedom to make a new constitution and conquer a modern, presidential and democratic republic for all the Spanish nation.

Yeah, though as far as I can see, the damage is already done. Brother is against brother and people are getting polarized between each other while the pathocracy gets off the hook. The PTB are interested in a Balkanization of the EU and/or the chaos that this will entail, and then you have people like Julian Assange explaining that Catalonia's independence is an extremely positive thing.

Postmodernist snowflakes, social justice warriors and antifa abound. And the nazis came out of the woodwork too. Trevijano, a political analyst that predicted the declaration of Independence when nobody thought it possible, is saying that there will be violence and last night, fascists already attacked Catalonia's radio station. One of Catalonia's regions will hold a Referendum to see if people want to belong to Catalonia or to Spain. The Official Bulletin of the State (BOE) in Spain has published today that Mariano Rajoy is in charge of Catalonia and Puigdemont has mobilized people to stay on the streets. Obviously, the Catalonian elite will not be in the front line with their people. And thus it begins. We'll find out soon enough how all of this transpires.

 

[Cosmos]

[...]Looks like chaos manifesting perhaps with a dose of Soros-style destabilization attempts. [...]

So far it also seems to me, to be a mixture of both: Chaos and Soros-style destabilization.

 

[Ca.]

Postmodernist snowflakes, social justice warriors and antifa abound. And the nazis came out of the woodwork too. Trevijano, a political analyst that predicted the declaration of Independence when nobody thought it possible, is saying that there will be violence and last night, fascists already attacked Catalonia's radio station. One of Catalonia's regions will hold a Referendum to see if people want to belong to Catalonia or to Spain. The Official Bulletin of the State (BOE) in Spain has published today that Mariano Rajoy is in charge of Catalonia and Puigdemont has mobilized people to stay on the streets. Obviously, the Catalonian elite will not be in the front line with their people. And thus it begins. We'll find out soon enough how all of this transpires.

Thanks Gaby and all Spanish constituents for the updates.

Spanish unity protester punches Catalan independence supporter in brutal footage as tensions ri...02:03
_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MtiS7nlLTI
_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T1BB2xEK9E (12:24)

 

[SocietyoftheSpectacle]

Yep, we'll have to wait and see as you say. It's true that Article 155 does not allow the central government to directly rule an autonomous region, only to "oblige the region's government to obey orders" and take any measures to make them do so (or words to that effect). But what does the Madrid government think it is going to achieve by having new elections in Dec? How can they avoid the separatist parties from winning back their seats unless they ban those parties and/or arrest the leaders and MPs? If they do so, how is it going to look to the rest of Europe and the world? Will they be able to spin it in the media?

For now I'm ready to bet that Madrid already has plans in place to make the independence-minded Catalans consider how much they are willing to pay and suffer for their dream of a separate nation. I'd say bus loads of 'nationalist' demonstrators have been moved in to Catalan cities and are ready to provoke violent clashes with independence crowds. They probably hope to provoke a big enough crisis so that they can intervene and 'restore law and order' and from there hope the whole thing blows over and Catalan forget about independence or accept something less. Time will tell.

Joe, I don't think the spanish government is sending buses to Catalonia.
I think they expect the non-independent people who live in Catalonia to vote this time and not to be afraid of the Antifa guys.
It is the first time in Spain since 1975 that the spanish people go out with their national flags and the national soccer team is not playing.

NOBODY in catalonia is afraid to carry a Spanish Flag,
Or Go out and Vote for whoever they want to ,
ALL voting is done in secret,
The ONLY thing that ever Terrorised people from voting was the Guardia Civil.

I have been reminded on this forum , not to get emotionally attached to the GOOD people of Catalonia where I live,
But disinfo claiming there are Frightening ANTIFA groups I cannot let pass uncorrected.

 

[SocietyoftheSpectacle]

Everything that the Catalan leaders are doing (most of which are millionaire oligarchs) is very suspicious: the rush, the cowardice disguising itself as heroic and the risk of being imprisoned seems to indicate that they are pressured by international elites that want to divide Spain in small states.

It would not be strange that this new Catalan state should become a neoliberal "caliphate" where pedophilia and other depredations against humanity are legalized. Why not?


If the elites can already create states where more than half of the population of the region does not agree, then in that same state they will be able to create the most ponerologyc laws. The way to achieve power then conditions the way it is exercised. And obviously that Catalan state will be completely fascist with the millions who want to remain Spanish - like new Palestinians in a new Israel-.

Where exactly do you see evidence of this PRO Paedophilia in Catalunya ?

 

[Siberia]

For now I'm ready to bet that Madrid already has plans in place to make the independence-minded Catalans consider how much they are willing to pay and suffer for their dream of a separate nation. I'd say bus loads of 'nationalist' demonstrators have been moved in to Catalan cities and are ready to provoke violent clashes with independence crowds. They probably hope to provoke a big enough crisis so that they can intervene and 'restore law and order' and from there hope the whole thing blows over and Catalan forget about independence or accept something less. Time will tell.

Well, some 300 Ukie 'nationalists' have already declared their willingness to participate:

http://www.stalkerzone.org/kievs-veterans-ato-offered-send-300-militants-combat-separatism-spain/