Catalonia Independence Referendum - Democracy or Unity?

mabar

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Catalonia well known to be strong enough and contributor to Spain, I do not think Spain will let it leave in peace. This, an example one of its manoeuvres.

[quote author=_Catalonia looks for alternatives after cancelling independence referendum]
Catalonia looks for alternatives after cancelling independence referendum

Regional government decides not to hold vote, challenged in court by Madrid, and moves to announce an alternative process

Artur Mas, the Catalan president, at a rally in May. Photograph: Josep Lago/AFP/Getty Images
The Catalan government is calling off a referendum on independence from Spain planned for 9 November amid fierce opposition from Madrid.

Spain’s constitutional court decided unanimously in September to hear the central government’s case against the poll, which automatically suspended the referendum until it hears arguments and makes a decision – a process that could take years.

The regional government of Catalonia had vowed to press ahead with the vote but during a meeting of pro-referendum parties on Monday it backed off.

“The government has determined that the consultation [referendum] can’t take place,” Joan Herrera, a lawmaker with the tiny leftist Initiative for Catalonia party, said after the talks.

Catalonia’s nationalist government, led by Artur Mas, would announce an alternative proposal on Tuesday, he said. Mas is scheduled to give a press conference on Tuesday morning.

Mas had previously promised to respect the law in his drive for a non-binding vote on whether the wealthy north-eastern region should break away.

He has hinted that if the central government blocked the independence vote he could call an early regional election that would act as a plebiscite.

Mas has faced an undertow of fierce separatist yearning in the street and among his political allies. Members of the leftwing Catalan Republican Left (ERC), which props up Mas’s conservative CiU coalition in the regional assembly, have pressured him to defy the court order.

In a statement after the news broke that the government had decided to call off the referendum, the ERC said: “There is only one path: that parliament make an immediate declaration of independence.”

Polls suggest the ERC could make big gains if Mas were to call early elections, leaving Madrid facing a Catalan government more fiercely set on independence.

With an economy roughly the size of Portugal’s, Catalonia and its 7.5 million inhabitants – 16% of the Spanish population – have long been an engine for the country as a whole.

The region has its own widely spoken language that was repressed during the dictatorship of General Francisco Franco and a proudly distinctive culture.

The 1992 Summer Olympics, in part financed by the national government, helped transform the Catalan capital, Barcelona, into one of Europe’s most visited cities.

But a growing number of Catalans resent the redistribution of their taxes to other parts of Spain and believe the region would be better off on its own.

The 2008 real estate crash, which triggered a five-year economic downturn across Spain, and a 2010 decision by Spain’s constitutional court to water down a 2006 statute giving the region more powers have added to the growing pressure for secession.

Catalans were fired up by the September independence referendum in Scotland even though voters there rejected a separation from Britain.

Hundreds of thousands of people formed a giant “V” for “vote” in downtown Barcelona on 11 September, Catalonia’s national day, to push for the right to hold the referendum

The Catalan National Assembly (ANC), a powerful civil pro-independence group, which organised the protest, had already started a campaign of door-to-door canvassing for the referendum.

But a 5 October poll showed only 23% of Catalans supported the idea of forging ahead with the referendum and 45% wanted the regional authorities to comply with the stay ordered by the constitutional court.

Spain’s prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, has called for dialogue with Catalans to resolve the impasse.

“Law and dialogue, this is the way out of this situation,” he said at a campaign event for his conservative People’s party on Saturday in Guadalajara just north of the Spanish capital.
[/quote]
 
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A Very ODD and Varied Experience of Todays Vote,
In one instance Spanish Police
Invaded a Polling station and Stole the Ballot Boxes.

https://youtu.be/mdVOBpCUalc

On another Occasion Spanish Police are filmed Pushing a Catalan Policeman,
a Tweet LINK;

_https://twitter.com/catalannews/status/914453409453023232

and a 7 hour old Video from Tim Poole,
( at 50 minutes the People appear to Chase away the Police )

https://youtu.be/n0ZV0nBHvKQ

What with
Helicopters overhead all day,
and some rather Violent Police action when they are not outnumbered,
a very Odd and emotional day here in Barcelona.
 

Alejo

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
This has made me wonder a lot.

This was discussed in yesterday's SOTT radio show in Spanish. And it's the fact that whether this goes through or not, the damage is already done to the psyche of the population in Spain.

We saw it in the US with Trump, it's the one polarizing issue that keeps on giving. We saw it in Venezuela, where fellow citizens are unable to sit down and talk about their living conditions, all the while making them more and more difficult.

And now, apparently Catalonia has become the one issue for Spain, it doesn't really matter what happens or whether a country is formed or not. From now on, people will only see the repressive Madrid (or defensive) and the repressed Catalonia (or separatist) and it will forever taint the discussion.

And it has all the ingredients, police brutality and videos, Celebrities calling injustice and two opposing sides. International calls for unity and separation respectively and on and on.

All the while the actual power players in Spain continue to operate without scrutiny and the people are distracted over Catalonia
 

loreta

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
760 injures for now.

https://fr.sputniknews.com/international/201710011033286136-catalogne-violences-blesses/
 

Carl

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I notice even BBC news are covering this with the following slant (AFAIK the accurate one):

"People of Catalunya want independence, or at least the chance to vote, to exercise their democracy. Big government in Madrid has said NO, no Democracy, and has bused in hundreds of police from other areas in order to stamp down the people's democratic choice"

I wonder why this is the case.
 

caballero reyes

The Living Force
The main issue is MONEY.

As in everything related to government policies, they do not care about the welfare of the people, but the money / currency.
The bottom or key of the matter is money. In this case, the Spanish government does not want independence because at that time Cataluna, being an independent state, would have to manage the money itself in all its diverse forms as an independent state with its own laws of public treasury.
 

Ant22

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Carl said:
I notice even BBC news are covering this with the following slant (AFAIK the accurate one):

"People of Catalunya want independence, or at least the chance to vote, to exercise their democracy. Big government in Madrid has said NO, no Democracy, and has bused in hundreds of police from other areas in order to stamp down the people's democratic choice"

I wonder why this is the case.

I find it interesting too Carl. One would think that the MSM would be very much against the Catalonian independence.


caballero reyes said:
The main issue is MONEY.

As in everything related to government policies, they do not care about the welfare of the people, but the money / currency.
The bottom or key of the matter is money. In this case, the Spanish government does not want independence because at that time Cataluna, being an independent state, would have to manage the money itself in all its diverse forms as an independent state with its own laws of public treasury.
I think you're right caballero reyes. I don't remember the exact figures but it was mentioned in today’s SOTT radio audition that Catalonia pays in more than it gets back. Given how violent this day was for Catalonia people will be even more determined to leave the bully behind.


An update from Sputnik:

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201710011057856667-catalonia-wins-right-to-statehood/

Catalonia has won the right to statehood, according to Catalan President Charles Puigdemont.

Following a violent and chaotic Sunday independence referendum in Catalonia, Puigdemont announced that the breakaway region has won the "right to independence."

While specifics on the vote tally appear to be in short supply, the Catalan leader has affirmed that the region has won the right to be an independent, sovereign state, according to reports.

"We have won the right to have an independent state in the form of a republic," declared Puigdemont, surrounded by senior Catalan leaders, during a live televised address, cited by the BBC.

Puigdemont asserted that Europe and the EU would no longer be able "to look the other way," with regard to a free and independent Catalonia.
 

Tristan

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
Soros might well be working behind the scenes, according to his note below: (the amount of money for funding is scarce though, OSIT)

http://www.voltairenet.org/article198106.html

In 2014, George Soros’s Foundation, Open Society Initiative for Europe, funded organizations fighting for the independence of Catalonia. This is what La Vangardia revealed last year (2016).

According to internal documents the Soros Foundation provided:

- 27,049 dollars to the Consell de Diplomàcia Pública de Catalunya (Catalonia’s Council for Public Diplomacy in Catalonia), an organization that Catalonia’s Generalitat [Translator’s note: this is the institutional framework for Catalonia’s independence] established with different private partners; and - 24 973 dollars to the Centre d’Informació i Documentació Internacionals a Barcelona (the Barcelona Centre for International Information and Documentation, which we will call “BCIID”). BCIID is an independent think tank.

The BCIID is playing the role of the Premier Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs for the “Generalitat of Catalonia”. It is defending every issue from the same perspective as Hillary Clinton.
 

mkrnhr

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
For the Spanish government to act so foolishly, it must be really desperate.

Zerohedge here concludes that

The doomsday scenario [Catalan independence without taking any share of the total Spanish debt] would be Spain waking up with a debt equal to 124% of its GDP and growing, due to the 6.7% deficit, which would take another 4-5 years to be contained. The EU’s response to the possibility of Spanish bankruptcy would be predictable: more austerity. It is important to note that while Spain has been growing for the past two years and unemployment is also decreasing, the recipe chosen by the Spanish government, flexibility of the labour market in the form of temporary jobs, has exacerbated income inequality: as the OECD points out that temporary jobs are low-productivity and thus earn low wages; the precariousness of the job prevents improvements in productivity, thus improvement in wages. The poor remains poor, while the rich gets richer and the gap widens.

[...]

Catalan independence could prove to be the last nail in the coffin: either Spain goes bankrupt or is forced to implement even more austerity at the risk of facing a revolution from the economically displaced.
The EU could be more than happy to put pressure on the Spanish government and maybe by dividing the countries into smaller states, it would be easier to consolidate a centralized power, obtaining more and more concessions along the way from the actual nations under its thumb.
 

gdpetti

Jedi Council Member
I wouldn't say it's about money, but rather control... as most of these political puppets or operators have to understand after a while that money is essentially just a tool of the state... to control the masses, locally, regionally as if the EU, or internationally in basic imperial terms. Giving up power is anathema to them... thus they quickly lose self control of send in the army/goon squads... to break up the protest, the strike, the voting against their controls, which is their self of power... no greedy bastard will willingly give up power... money can be printed, or today, assigned to one's ledger... no printing is necessary, and the new digital SDR will make that easier... but losing control simply cannot be allowed... but the reactive jesture of sending in the goon squad gives them the opposite affect... at least for the establishment.... for the SG level and perhaps some of the deep state operators, it helps create more chaos, thus increases that negative energy.... their problem is making sure it stays negative and doesn't turn positive... thus their increasing need to 'pull the rug out' on the markets, economy and all facets/venues entangled within it... from entertainment to MSM to education et al.

Money is a means, not an end.. it seems that end is to maintain power/control... so many of these political establishment types seem rather pathological, so the mere threat of losing control/power is a direct threat to their very sense of self.... a clear and present danger that must be immediately addressed.. reactive.... which is their weak point... emotions that make them lose control... they are their own worst enemy.... and the peoples eventual 'savior'... as they essentially commit suicide.... but then this isn't necessarily a bad thing for the SG side of the chaos game... they just need to keep it negative.... and all they need to do is spread the chaos a little more... here and there... people losing money, their jobs etc, are easy targets.... easy to cull, easy to manipulate... and hard to keep their eyes on the prize.... which seems the eternal battle of spirits.
 

l apprenti de forgeron

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Tristan said:
Soros might well be working behind the scenes, according to his note below: (the amount of money for funding is scarce though, OSIT)

http://www.voltairenet.org/article198106.html

In 2014, George Soros’s Foundation, Open Society Initiative for Europe, funded organizations fighting for the independence of Catalonia. This is what La Vangardia revealed last year (2016).

According to internal documents the Soros Foundation provided:

- 27,049 dollars to the Consell de Diplomàcia Pública de Catalunya (Catalonia’s Council for Public Diplomacy in Catalonia), an organization that Catalonia’s Generalitat [Translator’s note: this is the institutional framework for Catalonia’s independence] established with different private partners; and - 24 973 dollars to the Centre d’Informació i Documentació Internacionals a Barcelona (the Barcelona Centre for International Information and Documentation, which we will call “BCIID”). BCIID is an independent think tank.

The BCIID is playing the role of the Premier Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs for the “Generalitat of Catalonia”. It is defending every issue from the same perspective as Hillary Clinton.
Interesting. The separatists have no right that endorse them - there is no right to destroy nations - so the only thing they could do to conquer their state - which is not nation - is to take up arms and win in a civil war - in which case they would lose - . The coverage of certain international media shows that they don't know nothing of the reality of Spain: the Catalan separatist leaders were Franco's most fanatical supporters, and now they are "democratic" (and Zionists. They will have found a new "master" for this separatist insanity). The word democracy is pure propaganda because the media and politicians do not explain what it means: organized power in such a way that there is separation of powers and authentic representation of voters. And where there are state parties, which do not live in civil society, there is no democracy. And that happens in most nations. They are party states or partidocracies. Democracy is not synonymous of voting. Voting lies is not democratic.

mkrnhr said:
The EU could be more than happy to put pressure on the Spanish government and maybe by dividing the countries into smaller states, it would be easier to consolidate a centralized power, obtaining more and more concessions along the way from the actual nations under its thumb.
Yes. It seems that in the last instance of imperial psychopathic capitalism is to destroy nations in many small states, all controlled by a single international supra-state. And in that "game" only lose the majority of normal people who are deceived, used and massacred.
 

whitecoast

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I thought the Duran had an interesting take on the independence vote:



The Catalan Referendum is a classic bait-and-switch operation by Barcelona
The economic elite in Barcelona merely plan to swap Madrid for Brussels as their preferred patron, and are relying on demagogic distractions such as the referendum in order to mislead the Catalan public into thinking that they’re voting for “independence”
_http://theduran.com/the-catalan-referendum-is-a-classic-bait-and-switch-operation-by-barcelona/

Everyone gets it — the Catalan referendum has exposed the very deep hypocrisy of the Spanish and EU ruling elite, especially in regards to their support for separatist causes elsewhere in the world and the harsh criticism that they regularly dish out anytime governments in the Global South are even suspected of using force against their citizens.

These are very powerful points that are insightful for the larger audience to dwell upon, but when dealing with the specific issue of Catalan separatism, rhetorical schadenfreude isn’t a solid basis for approaching the issue. While it’s true that the Catalan Controversy is a long and storied one, it’s also equally true that the Spanish Constitution forbids separatism, thereby making this “solution” to the problem illegal.

The argument then becomes one about the legitimacy of the Spanish state and whether the supreme law of the land should be respected or not, and objectively speaking, there are no current grounds at this moment to claim that it shouldn’t, even if there was a period of time decades ago where this might have been applicable.

Therefore, the separatists are employing Color Revolution tactics in order to provoke the state into a violent response that could then be deliberately decontextualized and misportrayed in a viral infowar campaign, the aim of which is to delegitimize the Spanish state and attract international support to their cause.

The separatists claim that they have the right to secede from Spain because their historical ethno-regional differences with Madrid are apparently irreconcilable. This is ironic because Catalonia’s autonomous government favors a multiculturalist approach to civilizationally dissimilar migrants, yet is stating that civilizationally similar people can’t live in the same country with one another.

Moreover, another curious point is that some in Catalonia believe that Germany should “spread its wealth” around in helping the poorer EU-member states, yet believe that Barcelona shouldn’t do precisely this in supporting the poorer regions of Spain. Speaking of the EU, the separatists want to integrate with the bloc after their proposed “independence” and even join NATO, which essentially amounts to their elite swapping patrons from Madrid to Brussels.

Viewed from such an angle, the Catalonian cause appears to be less about “independence” and more about an inter-elite struggle between the people ruling Barcelona and Madrid, though one in which the average person will undoubtedly become a victim if events continue to unfold along the lines of a Second Spanish Civil War, or at the very least, a Basque-like insurgency.

The Catalan Controversy affects much more than just Spain and its restive northeastern region, however, as it could end up having continental implications if Algeria implodes in a post-Bouteflika successionist struggle that ends up catalyzing another “Weapons of Mass Migration” tidal wave into Europe. Of course, the conditionals are that the aging Algerian leader passes away sometime during the Catalan unrest and that the uncertainty over who will succeed him triggers another civil war or fear thereof, neither of which are for certain.

Nevertheless, it’s important to focus on the fact that Spain is fracturing precisely at the moment when it needs to stand strong in defending its borders and the rest of the continent from illegal migration networks operating out of Morocco. The main international consequence of a weakened Spanish state is that it would encourage more uncontrollable migration to the EU if the government is forced to prioritize fighting the separatists over safeguarding its frontiers.

All in all, the Catalan Controversy is a lot more complicated than it’s being made to appear, and the libertarian-inspired logic that the main hallmark of a democracy is that anyone should be able to vote on anything at anytime is impossible to responsibly implement in any functional society. In addition, it’s also a demagogic distraction to obscure the pivot that Barcelona’s economic elite plan to make in swapping Madrid for Brussels as their new patron, which proves that Catalonia won’t ever be as “independent” as the referendum’s organizers have misled the masses to believe.
 

Gaby

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
My impression is that most people in the rest of Spain know and believe that the Referendum was illegal under current Spanish law, pretty much like the Duran article clarifies. Also, that many millennials (and "antifa", etc) from Catalonia were mobilized who really don't know a great deal of what is going on and the consequences. The young are most easy to manipulate. I know there is at least an entire town near the peripheral border of Catalonia who wants to become "Aragonese" (the province next to Catalonia) and thus, Spanish. They identify with Aragon and not Catalonia. But in general, if most were undecided in the past, now they are completely determined to be independent from Spain. I don't know which percentage of the population voted though.

On the other hand, the show of police violence touched something in Spain's "collective unconscious". It reminded people where are we really living so to speak.

For me it comes across as deliberate, like some action taken by the Spanish government due to foreign intelligence advice that had the intended result of more chaos and more pro-separatist feelings in Spain. Who really benefits from all this drama and mess?

Nevertheless, whenever the police comes with masks and batons, we know that it is bad news all the way around. And this is not the first case where we have seen such display of police violence in Spain.

My 2 cents.
 

Chu

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Yeah, something is rotten, I think. It doesn't look at all like another "Brexit", but rather an orchestrated "democratic success". OSIT. They EU can benefit from small and rich states at their service (like Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, etc.) and from more social division and hatred, combined with easier access to immigrants, etc. OSIT. What I don't understand is why they need to paint the Spanish government in such a bad light (and it already has a bad reputation, together with its Guardia Civil) and put so much pressure there. Spain has been one major dealer of weapons, friends with Israel, Qatar et al., and has been a pretty good pawn in the "war against terrorism". So, why sacrifice that? Even if the referendum ends up being considered illegal and nothing happens, it still succeeded in making the Spanish government look terrible in opposition with the innocent and good-willed snow-flakes (and maneuvered people) in favor of independence.
 

Carl

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I wonder if part of this is to give more legitimacy to a Kurdistan secession. Different beast entirely but it could be orchestrated in a similar way.
 
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