Child Psychopaths

[Twisted]

I have searched the forum for a similar topic, but found none to be exactly what I was looking for. If I have missed something, and this being a post on it's own is unnecessary, please do merge or delete.

Now, if there's one thing in the world that has always scared me, it is psychopaths, and the fact that I feel able to recognize them by the empty look in their eyes. I have always been convinced that psychopathy is something present from birth, or at least developed at a very early stage.

The reason for me bringing up this topic is that a child of a good friend of mine, to me, is showing signs of psychopathic behavior. This child is now at the age of 4 years old. The child and mother is currently living with me, and though I started seeing this behavior in him before the moving in with me, I have since then been convinced that this child is not normal, and it has also reminded me of things the mother has said her child has done, that I previously didn't put much thought into.

What I first noticed about him was the look he gets in his eyes when he is angry and doesn't get his will. The only way to describe the look, is that it is angry, black and empty. You know the expression "If looks could kill" ..
When he gets yelled at, if he doesn't get angry himself, he finds it funny. He laughs, and will make a "game" out of it, which notably, the mother sometimes will fall for.
He is usually a "bastard" as I would say, and will be up to no good the moment you take your eyes off him, but if he wants something he turns on his sweetest, most innocent voice (which I don't fall for, but his mother does)
He has also at one point taken his grandmothers kitten, put her in the toilet, flushed and stood beside watching and laughing. Just this one alone was a big, red, blinking warning-sign to me.

As I have spent some time thinking about this, going through everything in my mind to figure it out, I also remembered that I have been told by his mother that at one point, he had taken a knife (and this was one of those big and sharp ones used to slice bread) and came towards her with the knife lifted. She said that if she had not seen him coming, and been able to take the knife from him, he would have stabbed her, and she said she was "..Really afraid of my own child".
When he was a toddler, and his mother was sick, he used to sit by her in the bathroom laughing as she were throwing up and in visible pain.

I have come to the point where I am no longer able to look at this child with any love in my heart. I think I honestly dislike him, and fear what he might grow up to become.

And now for my questions.
Based on what I have written about this child, am I wrong in my conclusion that there's something wrong with him and that it is in fact just normal behavior for a child that age?
If I am right, not meaning he necessarily is a psychopath, how do I deal with it? Originally he is not my responsibility in that way, but as he now for the time being lives under my roof, I bear some responsibility in addressing the issue.
And last but not least - How do I confront the mother about it, when she herself is blind to it, and excuses everything he does with the fact that she and the childs father left each other in less than a year ago? And could this in fact be the case?

 

[Hildegarda]

Based on what I have written about this child, am I wrong in my conclusion that there's something wrong with him and that it is in fact just normal behavior for a child that age? [..] If I am right, not meaning he necessarily is a psychopath, how do I deal with it? Originally he is not my responsibility in that way, but as he now for the time being lives under my roof, I bear some responsibility in addressing the issue.

The behavior you are describing is not normal in any way, shape or form. It is disfunctional, and you are right in pointing out that the exact label is not the most important thing at this point.

As a stranger to the whole situation, I would have liked to know more about the context and if possible, reports from other observation points. How long have you known the child? Are these events a constant background of the child' life and behavior, or more of a string of incidents that had made a big impression on you? What kind of life did the child have and has now (birth circumstances, general health, where he lived before, who took care of him, does he attend daycare and what do teachers there say, etc)? What is his mother's parenting like? Does the father keep in contact with them, and was his parting from the family amicable or not? Why are the two of them living with you and what is your relationship to the child and the mother?

The answer to your question of, "how do I deal with it?", will probably depend on how you answer to yourself the last question, and what your responsibility is to the mother and the child. Irrespectively of whether the kid is a psychopath or not, he clearly needs help.

It also may help to know which country you are currently residing in: there are counseling services available to preschool-age children, but the system differ from place to place. I'll be happy to help in researching the details to the best of my ability.

 

[clearmiddle]

Now, if there's one thing in the world that has always scared me, it is psychopaths, and the fact that I feel able to recognize them by the empty look in their eyes.

I have only dealt directly with two (adult) psychopaths that I am aware of, and while that was a life-altering experience (both at the same time), I don't recall anything unusual about their eyes, or being "scared" for that matter. I did become a little paranoid and start to see psychopaths where there were none. I realize now that there are psychopaths, narcissists, borderlines, and other people that are unhealthy to have around, but that surrounded by such people it is more important to defend yourself than to try to give everyone the "right classification."

What I remember most is the trail of destruction left by these conscience-free individuals. One of them ended up alone and isolated because he completely destroyed the one social group that was providing him with a gullible (and vulnerable) audience. The other continues on in a weird symbiotic relationship with the psychopathic corporation that he works for, in spite of the damage he does. I guess he would be termed "successful."

I don't know what you are seeing. If this child has a conscience there should be signs of it, but if you make up your mind otherwise then you may not see that. On the other hand, irrespective of the category of behavior that a psychologist might assign, it is possible that there is someone living with you that you should be afraid of, and you may need to act to defend yourself.

This doesn't sound to me like "normal" behavior for a child that age, but be cautious about applying an "abnormal" label and then reacting to it. You need to be as aware of what is going on with you as you are with the other people involved.

 

[Hildegarda]

I don't know what you are seeing. If this child has a conscience there should be signs of it, but if you make up your mind otherwise then you may not see that. On the other hand, irrespective of the category of behavior that a psychologist might assign, it is possible that there is someone living with you that you should be afraid of, and you may need to act to defend yourself.

This doesn't sound to me like "normal" behavior for a child that age, but be cautious about applying an "abnormal" label and then reacting to it. You need to be as aware of what is going on with you as you are with the other people involved.

I absolutely agree. To be honest, I am very weary of the situation when I actively dislike a kid. There is a danger of seeing more badness in his behavior than there is (e.e., interpreting as malicious the actions that are simply careless or reactive). There is unfortunately also a danger of feeling bad for your "prejudice", and as a result trying to compensate for it by being extra-nice, thus losing your own guard. Both not good and not safe.

This is why perhaps it may be better in this case to set aside any labeling in this case, and instead think of what the child's needs are and how they can be met before school starts and all the challenges go up a notch. Twisted, if your relationship with the mother is close and you can help them by offering observations and advice, that will be a great service. At the same time, you don't want to be hurt yourself, either.

 

[clearmiddle]

The behavior you are describing is not normal in any way, shape or form. It is disfunctional, and you are right in pointing out that the exact label is not the most important thing at this point.

As a stranger to the whole situation, I would have liked to know more about the context and if possible, reports from other observation points...

I very much agree. I would want to remain somewhat undecided while cautiously inquiring to learn more, and while looking for ways to protect myself at the same time. I used to think that psychopaths were just a very interesting topic, until one of them got me laid off (apparently for the sheer enjoyment of it) in a recession. The other one could have damaged my credit and gotten me evicted but I was much quicker to recognize that situation and I had him evicted instead. Caution is certainly called for while you are trying to understand what is going on.

 

[clearmiddle]

...Twisted, if your relationship with the mother is close and you can help them by offering observations and advice, that will be a great service. At the same time, you don't want to be hurt yourself, either.

And do be conscious about not trying to provide "help" that isn't wanted. That can really backfire.

 

[Hildegarda]

And do be conscious about not trying to provide "help" that isn't wanted. That can really backfire.

true, but also she isn't a totally disinterested party here. They may not want her help, but they are still living at her house. I understood that to be a gracious offer-type of arrangements. Even if they are roommates, sharing rent and splitting bills, the child's behavior and the dynamics between the mother and child impact her life too. She has a right to object to disruptions; and these kind of situations tend to blow up or sour even if the affected party keeps it all in. That's why some kind of talk with the mother may be in order either way, the more I think about it.

 

[clearmiddle]

true, but also she isn't a totally disinterested party here. They may not want her help, but they are still living at her house. I understood that to be a gracious offer-type of arrangements. Even if they are roommates, sharing rent and splitting bills, the child's behavior and the dynamics between the mother and child impact her life too. She has a right to object to disruptions; and these kind of situations tend to blow up or sour even if the affected party keeps it all in. That's why some kind of talk with the mother may be in order either way, the more I think about it.

Yes, I think that when it is your house, you need to talk with the other people and bring out enough information to clarify what is going on. I don't think I can completely reduce it to a set of rules, but I will ask for information that I need to have, ask if there is some way I can help if the situation warrants it, and I will usually help when asked if I don't think I am being targeted. Beyond that other people's free will can become an issue, or one can become prey. These are things I learned the hard way.

 

[anart]

Yes, I think that when it is your house, you need to talk with the other people and bring out enough information to clarify what is going on. I don't think I can completely reduce it to a set of rules, but I will ask for information that I need to have, ask if there is some way I can help if the situation warrants it, and I will usually help when asked if I don't think I am being targeted. Beyond that other people's free will can become an issue, or one can become prey. These are things I learned the hard way.

I think it's always wise to remember that when we've 'learned things the hard way', we can become very quick to project our own experiences onto other situations. Until we have more data from Twisted, we can't really make determinations or suggestions. We just don't know enough yet - and he/she might not either. So - more data, Twisted?

 

[Twisted]

Thank you for all your responses! It was more than I could hope for.

I have known this child since the day he was born. I have known his mother all my life as our parents met at the hospital.
The reason they are living with me is because after leaving her boyfriend (the childs father) and moving out, she found the rent to be more than she could handle alone, and it was very difficult to find a cheaper place that suited her needs regarding the kid. So we talked about it, and I said they could have the 2nd floor of my house if she wanted. I could use the extra money that offered me, and she had the opportunity to save some money.

From the start of this childs life, I viewed him as family sort of, and you could say I genuinely loved him.
Up until he was around 3 years old he was a very good kid. He obeyed without fuzzing when told "no", and there was generally little problem with him. He has always been ahead of development, and a very smart kid.
He started kindergarten at only 9 months, and this has often been credited the fact that he's been ahead other children in development. Both physically and mentally.

I'm just gonna side-track for a moment, and it may not have any importance to anything, except my view of the child and why it has changed. The boys birthday is the day before mine. The due-date given was my birthday. Which was special in itself, but it also mean that we share the same star sign. (Me and the mother is only 5 days apart, but she has a different star sign)
So, early on in this kids life, I saw things in him, that I recognized in myself and what I was told about how I was when I was a child. I felt I understood him.

It also belongs to the story that the mother and father was not together in the first years of his life, but he has always been present in his life. The two got together and moved in with each other when he was 3 or close to 4. I can't remember exactly, so the relationship didn't last all that long. It was about this time he started acting out, or becoming more difficult to deal with. Of course, no child is perfect all the time, and to us it was normal behavior. He had reached the age where he had his own opinions and could voice them, and that was all there was to it. As he became more difficult, the mother started excusing it with how the relationship wasn't going that well, and that the kid probably was picking up on that. Now, as I said in my first post, she now excuses it with the fact that they left each other, and have shared custody, and that it is understandable that it affects the kid.
I agree, to some point. But many kids deal with separation of the parents, and get sent back and forth if there's shared custody. Some of the behavior may be as a result, but in my eyes, not all of it.
I have talked to the grandmother, as I worked with her during a project right before them moving in with me. We talked about the child, and I "found the guts" to tell her what I saw in him (and I did use the word psychopath for a lack of better term). To my surprise she agreed, and she saw the same. She told me she had talked about it with his other grandmother and that up until recently, she had denied seeing such things in him, but later agreed there was something less normal about him.
The kindergarten has also recently called in for a meeting with the parents about his behavior, and they have advised some sort of therapy, which luckily the mother has agreed to.
However, they want her to deliver the kid in kindergarten everyday when she has him so they can evaluate him, and she told them she would, but then she doesn't do it, cause "she doesn't have him that much, and would like to spend that time with him if it is possible".
The shared custody is about 70/30, with the father having the bigger part. It was originally 50/50, but the kid said he would rather live with his dad, as was understandable, cause he has all his friends there, and had none in the new neighborhood, but the mother wasn't willing to give him 100%.

Now, the incident with the knife, and the one where he put the cat in the toilet and flushed are incidents spread fairly apart.
His difficult behavior is on a daily basis, and he usually can't be unattended for a second or he'll be breaking stuff or being up to no good. And this is a child closing in on 5 years old, and constant supervision should not be necessary.

He is turning out to be very manipulative IMO. He knows how to turn on the sweet voice if he wants something.
If he is caught in the act of doing something he's not allowed, he quickly apologizes, but I don't think he understands. To him that's just a word that gets him off the hook.
If he gets caught right before the act he also turns on the sweet voice, and might say something like "I was just gonna give it to you".
If you do yell at him, as I said, he either gets angry and get the dark eyes, or he'll be running around making it into a game. He will avoid eye contact, unless he gets angry. Then he will look at you and, this is my personal opinion, "psyche you out".

I really don't know what to do about the situation, as I know confronting my friend, his mother, about it, will not end well. She will see it as a personal attack, and all she will hear is me telling her whats wrong, and what she does wrong, and the only thing I will get back is that I don't have a say, and "what makes you an expert" since I don't have kids of my own.
However, she has agreed to the evaluating and therapy, which I hope will help - and I know that by her agreeing to such, she's not totally blind herself.

It is important to remember that I did love this child, but was not blinded by my love for him, to see what has developed within him, and thus it has made me dislike him, and I dread the days he will be coming here as a result.

I hope this will clarify some, and every response is received with gratitude.

 

[Laura]

I dunno, it sounds to me more like a kid who is being taught to manipulate by his parents, possibly his mother. I've seen quite a bit of that in very unhealthy dynamics between mother and child. The mother feels guilty for some reason, lets the child do a little manipulation, it works, then it just grows. It also sounds like he may not be getting the quality parenting he needs. It's shocking to hear of a child going to kindergarten at 9 months. The child should be constantly with the mother, like 24 hours a day, or other very close family, for at least 3 to 4 years, in order to get a good emotional grounding. Being shipped off to an institution at that young age probably has had an extremely negative effect.

In short, it sounds like a sociopath in the making - being made by those around him.

 

[Adaryn]

Hi Twisted,

Do you know anything about the kid's father? His personality, behaviour, why they broke up, etc.?

 

[slowone]

I dunno, it sounds to me more like a kid who is being taught to manipulate by his parents, possibly his mother. I've seen quite a bit of that in very unhealthy dynamics between mother and child. The mother feels guilty for some reason, lets the child do a little manipulation, it works, then it just grows. It also sounds like he may not be getting the quality parenting he needs. It's shocking to hear of a child going to kindergarten at 9 months. The child should be constantly with the mother, like 24 hours a day, or other very close family, for at least 3 to 4 years, in order to get a good emotional grounding. Being shipped off to an institution at that young age probably has had an extremely negative effect.

In short, it sounds like a sociopath in the making - being made by those around him.

I too was wondering about him going to Kindergarten so young. I believe there was research into the effect that childcare in Nursery and Kindergarten had on young children especially boys and I believe it was considered negative in many respects. ( I will try and find the reference).

I have a friend with three boys, all of which went to full time Nursery and their behaviour sounds very similar. They haven't been unkind to any animals that I know of but I'm not sure I'd trust them on their own. They lack eye contact on speaking, are quite dismissive of others feelings, and generally don't listen.

I can also personally testify to how easy it is to allow/encourage children of split custody to become manipulative. I did it to my Stepdaughter, completely blind of my own programmes. I did a huge amount of projecting of my negatives onto her and because her parents were also parenting with the burden of guilt about the split etc we all compiled the problem.

It's harder for you because you aren't one of the boys parents but he does live in your house. I would hope that gradually you could begin to introduce the idea to his mother that he needs some more guidance and better boundaries about his behaviour.

Hope it improves.

 

[Twisted]

Hi Twisted,

Do you know anything about the kid's father? His personality, behaviour, why they broke up, etc.?

Yes. I've known the father close to 10 years now.
He's an easy-going guy that "everyone" likes. I want to say he's smart and knows a lot, but knowing isn't always understanding what one knows. But this is a guy one always have the opportunity to learn from.
He is sort of a "geek", or very good with computers and technology if you will, and this is what interests him at most.
I'd say he is somewhat a slob (in dressing and home environments), and have difficulties with economic responsibilities, which ultimately ended in their breaking up.
My friend is very money-oriented, if I may call it that. It is very important to her to have full control, and more money to spend for pleasure after bills are paid.

He is in my eyes, a very good father. Though I don't know how he deals with certain behavior from the son, as I am not there to see it. But he comes across as more firm, and sticking to what he has said, more than what the mother does.

What slowone said about lacking of eye-contact on speaking, dismissive of other persons feelings, and generally don't listening - this would also go for this kid.

I am very open to the fact that he started kindergarten at such an early age could be of a very important factor in his [negative] development, even though we have credited a lot of the positives we saw in development due to this early start.

As Laura says, it sounds like he is being taught to manipulate by his parents, possibly mother, is also a very real possibility. I don't think it is conscious on her behalf. But mother tends to be very manipulative, or lie in her own benefit, mostly so people won't dislike or judge her. Having known her all my life, she is very transparent to me, and I don't fall for it, but I don't call her on it either as I like to avoid drama if possible.
The reason I have not confronted her about this subject is also for same reason, to avoid drama.

 

[piranah]

Twisted.....it is good that you are seeking help and information. If your feelings are correct and the child is indeed psychopathic then you will need to get him therapy and outside independant help. From my experience if a child is showing manipulative and violent tendencies at this age and does not get help the patterns of behaviour are set and will get worse as time goes by. For some reason at some time this child's emotional needs have not been met he may have dissasociated himself from feelings and be trying to manipulate because that is the way he gets security by control and game playing. My child was four when she came to us and we did not put two and two together. We pushed down our suspicions because she was so young and I personallly thought love would be enough. With our child she was normal on the surface but very cold and controled. Never crying but the black looks are familiar that you describle. If you crossed her she held the anger inside and found ways to get you back. Like a adult psychopath will murder and return to the crime scene she seemed to enjoy hurting people and then watching your reaction without you suspecting her.....like she was feeding off your distress as you tried to work out what was happening. Once whilst going on a family holiday she took a suitcase and hid it.... she knew it had a computer and my important stuff inside. Later on the train we realised it was missing and I was very distressed I caught her watching me completely calmly. She was 15 at the time. I was going up and down the train and she followed me with this wierd expression. Eventually luckily we found the case as a travelling companion had noted it was left behind and taken it on board further up the train. He confirmed he had seen our daughter leave the case and thought it was an accident. It was only one small thing in a long line of things she did but I use it to illustrate how the child can play games almost beneath your perception. They learn so much so quickly. Another incident involved her damaging a teachers car after being told off. She kept denying it until we learned there was cctv evidence. Only then she admitted her involvement and her first bolshy words were. So what the teacher's got insurance hasn't she?. There seemed to be this coldly calculating part to her she was able to contain at an age when four year olds are completely uncontrolled usually she was like a genius. I would trust your instinct I wish I had trusted mine. Not everyone will see what is happening. The child will only show certain sides to certain people. At four he will be possibly at a good age though to get help. I am not saying you can change the child but you can certainly get documented therapy and not allow him to go under the radar as he grows.

There is alot of understanding now of how children develop and the important bonding between a child and his mother or main carer. It is horrible to label a child when we all like to think that a child is innocent and can be saved. But there are many examples of child psychopaths who are missed and go on to cause pain and suffering to many others and ultimately to themselves. They do not have happy lives. So if you can get this child help even if only to get the mother to understand that there may be a problem you should do so.