Does anyone have any plans for the coming Ice Age?

Divide by Zero

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
So you're on a nitpicking shtick now? If you see a person drowning in a river, you jump in when you make VERY quick assessment of the situation. There is NO thought for 'reward'.
And you disprove your own point and original situation mentioning INSTINCT, that it is something that one does consciously. Instinct does not equal sacrifice. If you made the bad split second decision and your family suffered for it, would you be as holy?

It's still a calculation done by instinct. In fact, because it is instinct, the reward is easier- the LOW PATH of the brain takes over. Remember that part of the wave?
 

Ursus Minor

Jedi Master
So it's a very unenviable situation to consider, but I have a feeling that the proper application of force, which would seem entirely antithetical to STO on the surface, is going to be one of the questions on the 4D entrance exam.
Very good work, Neil!

Seems like you've unearthed some valuable quotes and just when I thought I've learned that the Universe was demanding some "shoot-to-kill policy" to make a stand, and prove yourself worthy of making it to a higher density, up you came with some contradicting information.

Apart from not wanting to polarize to STS by killing and expecting to be inducted into 4-D as a reward, I realize that my main concern is to be at peace with my conscience. Being haunted by your conscience must be hell on earth.

But then again we're talking about self-defense, not random killing. There may come a situation, a situation like no other before, when we have to defend ourselves and our fellow beings against pure evil and I'm going to have to ask myself what my conscience would ask of me then.

I have a sneaking feeling that I was conditioned to be very peaceful. My stance would be like: Be peaceful toward the world and the world will be peaceful towards you. Well, will it?
 

Zar

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
@DBZ Joe never mentioned INSTINCT... You made that up all on your own, therefore disproving your own point and hopefully causing you to take a long look in the mirror and wonder how many thinking errors you're having. And how much conflict you're creating in yourself due to this, can't be good for you or those around you.

Now your first urge may be to try to argue that seeing someone drown and jumping in to save them is instinct. But instead why not stop, actually consider what others are trying to tell you, and work on being more critical with yourself. Take your thoughts apart and put them back together. It is very useful to approach things with the mind of a beginner, me thinks. Then you may see that many people don't take action when someone else is in danger, especially in groups, they just wait till someone else does. So were is this instinct then?
As I understand it instinct is when a ball comes flying at you and as you see it you flintch or freeze or cover your head. No thinking necessary.
 

Divide by Zero

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I have a sneaking feeling that I was conditioned to be very peaceful. My stance would be like: Be peaceful toward the world and the world will be peaceful towards you. Well, will it?
Thanks for this. I've always been taught to be respectful of life by my loving family and extended family.

However, we grew up in an area that has had it's share of crime on and off through the decades. I never thought to need a gun despite that, but it brought out the issue that I brought here originally.

I understand that in my area, a lot of crime is due to poverty of the neighboring areas. Maybe I am a minority with this, but be honest- how many of you are in close - high population density areas where crime happens because of the unbalanced economy? It's easy to sit on some rural property in another country or state and act like people don't do bad things when they are desperate!

As much as my family wanted to be peaceful and harvest this infinite sum idea of life, the fact is that life is zero-sum if not by the psychopathic economy alone. It's naive to think that in an environment of restricted food, people will be as civil as they are today. It's naive to think that this crime is a result of some "EVIL". No, it's basic nature- whether it be in the animal kingdom or humanity.

So the point that I brought up and you bring up has mixed replies. It's easy to sit in some rural space, never having to had to go through a bad economy and expect that one wouldn't have to shoot many to survive. It's easy to label someone as one who gives up easily when they haven't been through hard times. It's easy to assume that one is smarter to survive and there's some kind of infinite sum game that will help them make their food stockpiles enough to last years if not months.

I'm tired of these lies. None of it are from people who know how it is to live in such situations. If any of you lived through civil wars and other horrible conditions, then I will listen. But I sure as hell don't trust a judgement from someone who thinks wealth and growth are related to receivership capability. I wouldn't trust someone who thinks they are doing things for truth without expectation of making things better. I wouldn't trust someone who is focused on karma as some benchmark, without realizing that we induce huge "supposed karma" by being carnivores. Pfft. I think my faith is waning because the idealism is showing itself to be lies.
 

Divide by Zero

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
@DBZ Joe never mentioned INSTINCT... You made that up all on your own, therefore disproving your own point and hopefully causing you to take a long look in the mirror and wonder how many thinking errors you're having. And how much conflict you're creating in yourself due to this, can't be good for you or those around you.

Now your first urge may be to try to argue that seeing someone drown and jumping in to save them is instinct. But instead why not stop, actually consider what others are trying to tell you, and work on being more critical with yourself. Take your thoughts apart and put them back together. It is very useful to approach things with the mind of a beginner, me thinks. Then you may see that many people don't take action when someone else is in danger, especially in groups, they just wait till someone else does. So were is this instinct then?
As I understand it instinct is when a ball comes flying at you and as you see it you flintch or freeze or cover your head. No thinking necessary.
So when you see, for example, a child fall into a river and you instinctively and automatically jump in and pull them out, where is the thought of personal reward?
Are you serious? I made it up? READ THE POST.

Joe brought this up to explain why Laura wrote the many great works she did. I feel she did them for a purpose, even if they were not probable. Every living being DOES for a result. But Joe tried to make it seem like anyone who expects must be selfish etc. No, It's human as much as Caesar did what he did to make things better.

This STO worship is the problem.... it brings about a religiosity to things that is neither rational nor realistic.
 

RevChristoph

The Force is Strong With This One
I think worrying about what may or may not happen is a waste of energy. Tomorrow is not guaranteed. I only mention this as I think this thread might be derailing a bit, IMHO.

Also, if you are going to use information that has been provided in readings or posts, it is customary to quote it. I'm not a moderator or anything, just makes for good practice.

Just my two cents. Sorry if I add to or create any noise.
 

Neil

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
Are you serious? I made it up? READ THE POST.

Joe brought this up to explain why Laura wrote the many great works she did. I feel she did them for a purpose, even if they were not probable. Every living being DOES for a result. But Joe tried to make it seem like anyone who expects must be selfish etc. No, It's human as much as Caesar did what he did to make things better.

This STO worship is the problem.... it brings about a religiosity to things that is neither rational nor realistic.
I think you should reread this session and consider this quote.
session960504 said:
Q: (TK) So, what I said was the gist of what is going on here. So, we have to figure out what we are supposed to do so that the earth can be maintained...
A: You will do what you will do.
Q: (TK) This is true.
A: Do you, in general, control 2nd density beings on earth?
Q: (L) Yes.
A: So, what is "fair" about that?
Q: (L) Nothing.
A: Okay, so what is the difference?!?!???
Q: (TK) So, basically, we control 2nd density, and 4th density controls us. There are the good guys and bad guys. (L) And we will do what we will do. Either we choose to align ourselves with the good guys, or with the bad guys.
A: It's up to you.
Q: (TK) However, if too many people align themselves with the bad guys, then the balance tips in their favor, and there is no more advancement, so there has to be education so that people will know...
A: T***, you are close, but you are missing the point.
Q: (L) What is the point?
A: The point is, there "has to be" nothing. You will do what you will do. You choose. We have told you this repeatedly, but you still suffer from self-centered perspective.
Q: (TK) Everybody is worried about themselves. They all want to be saved and not worry about others.
A: More to the point, everybody in an STS realm views themselves as somehow "special, chosen, or protected." This is simply not so!!
Q: (TK) What is going to happen, is going to happen. The people...
A: The body does not matter. It is the soul that either progresses or digresses, just ask S****!
Q: (L) Did S***** progress or digress?
A: Open.
Q: (L) So, in other words, we could just sit around and live our lives and have a good time and not worry about a damn thing. Is that the point?
A: No.
Q: (L) It's our choices?
A: Yes.
You will do what you will do. I've given up on trying to do a whole a bunch of things to save the world or make it better for other people because I think that the planet is so far gone that nothing I do or say really matters. However, I still read certain books that I find interesting, write these messages, and try to maintain a certain standard of decency because it is in me to do those things. I do it because it is what I am. I don't think you can try to be STO, that is STS thinking. You can learn about it and play around with it for awhile, and it becomes what you are, part of your existential fiber...or not. Similarly, the drowning child scenario may be instinct or it may not be, it's not necessarily either/or either. My understanding is that if you selflessly sacrifice yourself for others, because it's just a function of what you are, even if it is not entirely conscious, then that is an STO trait at some level. I really don't think STO deals with the calculated risk assessment at all. Self-sacrifice is simply what they are, and all other STO beings would understand that, even if it causes them to suffer in the short term, it is all part and parcel to helping others. For your counterexample, if an STO being were to take an action that were to cause others to suffer "needlessly" and we can debate about the meaning of that term, then yes we could say that action was aligned with STS and would probably cause a loss of polarity.
 

Divide by Zero

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
My point is that Laura wrote what she wrote because she likes to study history and it MIGHT change things. That is DOing in 3d. Joe is the one that turned it into this holy self sacrificing thing without any thought of reward. Still... saving the kid is a reward...

My problem with the STO ideal is that it sounds very much like the same logic that justifies gurus and saints etc who we later find out only did it because they were severely obsessed. An honest goal of helping change things, even if a fraction of the population is something I respect. If Laura wrote those books just cause of some ideal without a want to improve the world, maybe I would have not trusted them.
That is why this whole thing about instinct and so on does not make a proper argument. Of course it is important to look out for your survival and those you care about. To be STO here and jump in the river even if it means likely failure is NOT heroic, nor serving. Everything in 3d is relative to what we can DO. That is based on physics.... the same laws of cause and effect.

It doesn't negate the good things that the Wave, etc have done. But why this fake holiness of STO doing because of no reward? If you didn't expect to help society, writing those books would be like those savant mathematicians who spend years doing formulas for things that don't come up with a conclusion.

I think applying the idea of STO here is a bastardization of what it is to live in 3d.... of course we do things to get something. It's not evil to hope for the better. It's more deluded to be the savant that DOES a lot for no purpose.
 

genero81

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I've given up on trying to do a whole a bunch of things to save the world or make it better for other people because I think that the planet is so far gone that nothing I do or say really matters. However, I still read certain books that I find interesting, write these messages, and try to maintain a certain standard of decency because it is in me to do those things. I do it because it is what I am. I don't think you can try to be STO, that is STS thinking. You can learn about it and play around with it for awhile, and it becomes what you are, part of your existential fiber...or not.
Yes and speaking for myself, I don't want to be the person who lowers my standards down to the lowest common denominator because 'it's all useless and nothing matters and nothing we do will make any difference so I may as well throw all decency out the window.' Or whatever reasoning one might come up with to justify further descent into a fearful and self centered callousness. Maybe this scenario where all seems completely hopeless and pointless is exactly the conditions needed to make an unweighted choice for STO. And maybe that is the only way an STS entity can make an STO choice in an STS environment.
 

Jones

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
Things that are practiced and experienced can be handed over to instinct. We're not born with the instinctive ability to slam our foot on the brake of a moving car when someone walks out in front of it. But we learn to hand that action over to instinct through practicing and experiencing driving a car. If someone chooses to practice altruism and concern for the safety and the well being of others, then jumping in the water can be an instinctive action - but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad one nor presume any thing negative about the person who jumps in. The mention of the low path in The Wave, I believe, is for awareness sake that there's the possibility that there are a whole bunch of things we do automatically/robotically that may not be to the best benefit of others or ourselves or our goals and aims. If, in the example of jumping in to rescue someone, an individual always jumped in to rescue someone in water, that would be an example of the low path running amok - the person in the water may just be having a bath and THAT action could be STS because the person in the bath isn't asking to be rescued.

DBZ:
This STO worship is the problem.... it brings about a religiosity to things that is neither rational nor realistic.
I did go looking for the C's session that talked about STO/STS and graduation to 4D, but I couldn't find it - maybe my memory is playing tricks on me with this. I recall it being said that in order to graduate to 4D one either had to be at least 55% STO, or 95% STS. At the moment, we're candidates at best who are working towards that 55%. That means that everyone who is still in this 3D is at least 45% STS, that kind of refutes the religiosity argument in favour of an acceptance that none that are still here in 3D either are or can be totally STO, and we are at least almost half STS while we are here. If I am remembering those percentage correctly, then it makes sense that a certain amount of STS has to be preserved in this dimension - survival of SELF and SPECIES, taking care of self comes first because you're no good to anyone else for any stretch of time if you don't - the limitations of living in a meat suit.

I still don't think it's about changing the world - isn't that the kind of "Staring down the Universe" action that can't be won? It's kind of like one group choosing how the world should change and trying to enforce that on the rest of the people in the world. It's more about finding those who see things for what they are, are totally dissatisfied with the mess and want to aim for something different for themselves and those others who see the same things and choose the same things. Hence 3D goes on as it always is and does, some graduate to 4D in either an STO or STS capacity. The 3D world returns to the Golden Age in it's own time according to it's own cycles or not.
 

Ursus Minor

Jedi Master
Yes and speaking for myself, I don't want to be the person who lowers my standards down to the lowest common denominator because 'it's all useless and nothing matters and nothing we do will make any difference so I may as well throw all decency out the window.' Or whatever reasoning one might come up with to justify further descent into a fearful and self centered callousness.
Fine piece of virtue signaling... :rolleyes:
 

Zar

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Oh wow, I was the one who had a brain fart. My bad DBZ, I've just recovered from a nasty bug and my system is still messed up(aside from the regular stuff). I was thinking that jumping in to save someone isn't necessarily instinctual but completely missed the words written down.
 

Neil

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
I think Laura started out trying to change the world, but later realized it wasn't going to work, at least not in the way that she envisioned. I still kind of hope that what I do will make a difference, but it's no longer a motivational factor. I don't know if it was a culmination of things I had read bubbling to the surface or what, but the question that the universe or my higher self posed to me when I was in a suicidal depression about all of this was, "When you strip away all of the factors, all of your reasons, what remains? Are you light or are you darkness?" Somewhat anticlimactically, I didn't really have an answer. It did start to change my relationship with reality, over a period of years, probably still ongoing. It probably sounds a little clichéd, but it's not an understanding that can be conveyed intellectually through writing. From an outsider's perspective, I probably just looked like some kid who had issues, but on the inside it was rather profound.
 
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