Does anyone have any plans for the coming Ice Age?

Laura

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I think Laura started out trying to change the world, but later realized it wasn't going to work, at least not in the way that she envisioned. I still kind of hope that what I do will make a difference, but it's no longer a motivational factor. I don't know if it was a culmination of things I had read bubbling to the surface or what, but the question that the universe or my higher self posed to me when I was in a suicidal depression about all of this was, "When you strip away all of the factors, all of your reasons, what remains? Are you light or are you darkness?" Somewhat anticlimactically, I didn't really have an answer. It did start to change my relationship with reality, over a period of years, probably still ongoing. It probably sounds a little clichéd, but it's not an understanding that can be conveyed intellectually through writing. From an outsider's perspective, I probably just looked like some kid who had issues, but on the inside it was rather profound.
Yes, I did begin with the rather naive idea that if people just had a decent, reasoned argument presented to them, the lightbulb would go on, and they would see and change. That's why The Wave is so long and has so much material brought in to help with the arguments. And I guess it DOES work for some people, but a lot fewer than I had hoped for.

After awhile, when I realized that there were more people who were not capable of receiving well researched and presented information, I wanted to understand why and present that information to those who were capable of understanding it. So, I did that.

Behind it all is my own, personal drive to understand life and reality simply because it deserves to be studied and understood; I guess you can describe that as Love for all that exists. That persists in spite of the repeated disappointments, disillusionments, betrayals, etc. I guess that everything that is presented to me is something I want to know about and understand as best I can.

I guess that in my inner heart I still hope that the efforts will make a difference in some way, at some level of reality; if nothing else, that the Universe won't end without somebody caring enough to know and understand it. I'm just an ordinary, flawed human, but there's that "caring" thing inside me that won't let me go; it's bigger than I am.
 

whitecoast

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
My problem with the STO ideal is that it sounds very much like the same logic that justifies gurus and saints etc who we later find out only did it because they were severely obsessed. An honest goal of helping change things, even if a fraction of the population is something I respect. If Laura wrote those books just cause of some ideal without a want to improve the world, maybe I would have not trusted them.
That is why this whole thing about instinct and so on does not make a proper argument. Of course it is important to look out for your survival and those you care about. To be STO here and jump in the river even if it means likely failure is NOT heroic, nor serving. Everything in 3d is relative to what we can DO. That is based on physics.... the same laws of cause and effect.
I think Joe's point (maybe I'm wrong) was that there is in people who want to do good a kernal of potential for being STO... that there's a general source of caring and good will toward others that we can cultivate to be of objectively greater service. That doesn't mean it manifests automatically in a mature fashion, or in a way that's directed toward the most objectively beneficial goals. Someone stupidly throwing themselves into dangerous rapids to save a drowning person would be a negative example of that immature response. I guess all the crazy SJW and manufactured outrage in the media these days is an example of a perversion or cynical exploitation of that instinct in people. I remember in a Truth Perspective episode on personality that being agreeable, compassionate, and polite aren't virtuous if they are simply automatic reflexes. I remember even in a C session (can't find it atm) that wanderers from STO worlds have an "innate bias" toward the good, although it's not built on actual comprehension and understanding due to just being born.

I hope some of this speaks to your own struggle with some of the ideas.

But why this fake holiness of STO doing because of no reward?
I think there's two answers. The first is more theoretical and the second more practical. The theoretical answer is that a desire to obtain something for the self is STS because it constrains of the flow of energy (is a narcissistic mother who forces her children to study until their eyes strain being altruistic?)

I think the second answer is because it fundamentally makes it easier on us, ourselves, in a virtuously selfish fashion. If we did get personally identified and attached and invested in some creative and altruistic endeavor, and it under-performs in some way, we don't need to tear our hair out and think the worst of ourselves for it. Maybe it would force us to think about helping others more, similar to how all conditioning based on negative emotions works. But my experience tells me that it just creates more suffering for yourself.

The ironic thing too is that I really believe, as an admirer of Nassim Taleb, that we are much dumber without skin or soul in the game. We do *need* to care and hurt for another, and somehow allow ourselves to use that to fuel our actions. We're not souless robots. Maybe this is where many of the work concept of having "an observer" inside of us comes from. I am reminded of a maxim of Gurdjieff's father, quoted in Meetings with Remarkable Men :
(3)...be outwardly courteous to all without distinction, whether they be rich or poor, friends or enemies, power-possessors or slaves, and to whatever religion they may belong, but inwardly to remain free and never to put much trust in anyone or anything....
(4) love work for work's sake and not for its gain.
(4) seems to be an example of the manifestation of (3), OSIT. Here I feel like Gurdjieff is trying to demonstrate what I've been trying to explain. I hope it's helpful in some way. In your words I am seeing a struggle in your words on here, and I hope maybe some of what I share can become your own understanding, either to accept or reject (and we'll cross that bridge when we reach it).

I think applying the idea of STO here is a bastardization of what it is to live in 3d.... of course we do things to get something. It's not evil to hope for the better.
Of course it isn't. But maybe you've heard Buddhism's Second Noble Truth: suffering comes from attachment to things which do not last (fyi in the 1st draft of this I said "thinks which do not last", whatever that implies). I see non-attachment as a way to spare ourselves a little bit of unnecessary suffering, so long as we keep doing our best to act outwardly in the most beneficial fashion (although, as I have admitted, you kind of need and rely on those foundations to identify and appreciate the good). FWIW.
 

Woodsman

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Holy smokes!

It all matters!

It’s easy for us to forget that we are of the world, so if we change ourselves, we change the part of the world we’re responsible for. -And there’s that undeniable ripple, anchoring effect.

Reading through Neil’s selection from the Ra Materials a few posts back, I found myself intrigued by the passages which describe an endless conflict between STS and STO, where neither can seem to win, and both sides find themselves drained from the conflict, -and unable to reach a perfected version of themselves due to the actions/intentions required to prevent subsumption by the other side. -To be wholly STO, one must include actions such as becoming a slave to that energy which wishes to crush others under the boot heel, except that conflicts with the requirement to exist freely in order to serve properly. So there’s pushback, and you get this whole cyclone of intentions. -Which is such a powerful battle that its question resonates through all layers of reality, defining much of our daily lives here in 3D, -and certainly most of our dream-expression, (fiction) media.

It’s not like the battle can be won, but I’m not sure it’s supposed to be. I can’t envision reality not having hot/cold, up/down, right/wrong. It makes life really interesting, and perhaps even drives the whole engine of the Cosmic School. What would be learned if everybody were dreamily going about their days in a state of blissful equilibrium like a bunch of heavenly hippies?

I LOVE the work done by this site, and by people like Laura and so many others now. Seeing people learning philosophy and studying How To Think and See at such complex levels today on YouTube and other areas of the internet, the “Intellectual Dark Web” where it has not yet been realized that such behavior is the New Cool, (hopefully that self-awareness won’t set in for a while yet. It’s so pure and fun right now without the sheep factor jumping aboard with an adornment virtue-signaled version to get in with the hip kids).., well, it’s amazing to see and it fills my being with satisfaction and joy. Nobody’s perfect, but the fact that people are genuinely TRYING to be Good Guys is just so.., awesome! It makes me really happy and energized and proud to be part of the whole Life on Earth thing.
 

Ursus Minor

Jedi Master
Honestly it had nothing to do with that at all. I was trying to convey that one could be motivated by not wanting to be a certain way as much as wanting to be virtuous or STO.
genero81, I'm sorry for having made this statement calling your post "virtue signaling"... :-[

It was way past bed time and I felt that you were insinuating that certain people, such as myself, were "fearful and callous"... ;-)

Having reread your post two or three times, I can say that it seems to have a completely different meaning now. :cool:
 

yumi

Jedi
Things that are practiced and experienced can be handed over to instinct. We're not born with the instinctive ability to slam our foot on the brake of a moving car when someone walks out in front of it. But we learn to hand that action over to instinct through practicing and experiencing driving a car. If someone chooses to practice altruism and concern for the safety and the well being of others, then jumping in the water can be an instinctive action - but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad one nor presume any thing negative about the person who jumps in. The mention of the low path in The Wave, I believe, is for awareness sake that there's the possibility that there are a whole bunch of things we do automatically/robotically that may not be to the best benefit of others or ourselves or our goals and aims. If, in the example of jumping in to rescue someone, an individual always jumped in to rescue someone in water, that would be an example of the low path running amok - the person in the water may just be having a bath and THAT action could be STS because the person in the bath isn't asking to be rescued.

DBZ:


I did go looking for the C's session that talked about STO/STS and graduation to 4D, but I couldn't find it - maybe my memory is playing tricks on me with this. I recall it being said that in order to graduate to 4D one either had to be at least 55% STO, or 95% STS. At the moment, we're candidates at best who are working towards that 55%. That means that everyone who is still in this 3D is at least 45% STS, that kind of refutes the religiosity argument in favour of an acceptance that none that are still here in 3D either are or can be totally STO, and we are at least almost half STS while we are here. If I am remembering those percentage correctly, then it makes sense that a certain amount of STS has to be preserved in this dimension - survival of SELF and SPECIES, taking care of self comes first because you're no good to anyone else for any stretch of time if you don't - the limitations of living in a meat suit.

I still don't think it's about changing the world - isn't that the kind of "Staring down the Universe" action that can't be won? It's kind of like one group choosing how the world should change and trying to enforce that on the rest of the people in the world. It's more about finding those who see things for what they are, are totally dissatisfied with the mess and want to aim for something different for themselves and those others who see the same things and choose the same things. Hence 3D goes on as it always is and does, some graduate to 4D in either an STO or STS capacity. The 3D world returns to the Golden Age in it's own time according to it's own cycles or not.
if we consider that STS is inseparably linked to STO, and in the sense that STO is the compensatory response to the STS impulse.
if we consider that STA is an open network, 55% STO represents more of a partitioned amount of knowledge, the most important thing being to maintain the link, in this case.

came to me a little musical phrase...
"...necessarily, it oscillates to keep the balance, the pulse crosses to go in return this perfect image that is close to our hearts"
 

3DStudent

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Maybe this scenario where all seems completely hopeless and pointless is exactly the conditions needed to make an unweighted choice for STO. And maybe that is the only way an STS entity can make an STO choice in an STS environment.
Or to put it another way, "If you won't choose the STO polarity in the worst of times, then you surely won't choose it in the best of times." The friction provides the fuel to make the choice. I recall a session where Ark said something like the little devil will become a big devil and you will know which way to choose.

It’s not like the battle can be won, but I’m not sure it’s supposed to be.
Yeah, the battle is always there and you can 'go home' (towards STO polarity) anytime. So if the battle is going on, make sure you bring your sword! And like JBP says, know how and when to use it and when to keep it sheathed.

This thread has taken a much more comprehensive look at all of this and I'm grateful for that. It has become a rich discussion. :-)
 

genero81

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I'm sorry for having made this statement calling your post "virtue signaling"... :-[

It was way past bed time and I felt that you were insinuating that certain people, such as myself, were "fearful and callous".

Oh, I see why now. No, I was not thinking of you or anyone in this thread. I was thinking of scenarios where the worst comes out of people when chaos takes over, like looters and such during a disaster or a blackout. Mad Max and what not, as depicted in movies.

Thank you for clarifying. I feel better now. :-)
 

tczubernat

The Force is Strong With This One
. . . like a bunch of heavenly hippies?
Bwahahaha, "heavenly hippies!" This made me giggle. Thanks for that.

Here's some stuff to ponder regarding STO/STS:

If you had the chance to go back in time and kill Hitler/Lenin/Mao/Marx . . . would you? What if the deal was that you get the opportunity to do it, but you would go to "hell." What if you could, but your immortal soul would just cease to exist. Would you do it? I know I would. In the blink of an eye.
 

mrtn

Jedi Master
Some way to measure your level of STO might be - instead of thinking about what you would or could do in a certain situation - to compare how YOU are doing in a situation (preferably a real situation you experienced) as to how you would see someone else in that situation. If person A asks for some money for a task that makes sense and person B has some spare money he could lend or gift and it makes sense overall, would that situation look differently if YOU were person B? Of course there are all kind of details, jumping in the river to save the child doesn't make sense for someone who can't swim, or someone might be just to fearful to accomplish the task. To acknowledge that you might not be able to actually live up to your ideas and expectations is already better than hiding that fact from yourself in illusion. And if you can't raise your impeccability for various reasons (we have our limitations after all), you can at least try to level down what you expect of others, and that can be equally difficult, to balance your relation to the world.

I think STO means how much you care about the overall situation or the bigger picture and that you relate yourself and your abilities to it in an balancing and stabilizing way. STS relates everything on the outside to itself and its needs.
 

Laura

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I LOVE the work done by this site, and by people like Laura and so many others now. Seeing people learning philosophy and studying How To Think and See at such complex levels today on YouTube and other areas of the internet, the “Intellectual Dark Web” where it has not yet been realized that such behavior is the New Cool, (hopefully that self-awareness won’t set in for a while yet. It’s so pure and fun right now without the sheep factor jumping aboard with an adornment virtue-signaled version to get in with the hip kids).., well, it’s amazing to see and it fills my being with satisfaction and joy. Nobody’s perfect, but the fact that people are genuinely TRYING to be Good Guys is just so.., awesome! It makes me really happy and energized and proud to be part of the whole Life on Earth thing.
That's one of the most inspiring things I've read in awhile! And yeah, when you put it that way, it really is awesome!
 

Tuatha de Danaan

Jedi Master
Bwahahaha, "heavenly hippies!" This made me giggle. Thanks for that.

Here's some stuff to ponder regarding STO/STS:

If you had the chance to go back in time and kill Hitler/Lenin/Mao/Marx . . . would you? What if the deal was that you get the opportunity to do it, but you would go to "hell." What if you could, but your immortal soul would just cease to exist. Would you do it? I know I would. In the blink of an eye.

Hi tczubernat..

I've not got a definitive answer here but sense that going back and destroying part of a time line would in and of itself create a void which would have to be filled. I understand , like it or not, those people were used to create situations for souls to learn. For the soul to learn something else would have appeared..
 

tczubernat

The Force is Strong With This One
Hi tczubernat..

I've not got a definitive answer here but sense that going back and destroying part of a time line would in and of itself create a void which would have to be filled. I understand , like it or not, those people were used to create situations for souls to learn. For the soul to learn something else would have appeared..
Yeah, I get that. What I was attempting to illustrate (maybe a bit clumsily) is how do differentiate between someone who is STO/STS. Would that type of murder (one, or all of those extreme examples) make someone STS? How about getting that opportunity and not taking it because killing one person is wrong. What if you had the foreknowledge of the events coming prior to them occurring and did nothing because killing is wrong.

You can make the argument that everything is as it should be and that God is in control and who are we to question reality and I'll "burn in hell" for going against all of that, but I gotta tell ya, I don't know that I would hesitate. I also understand that this is all speculation and no one truly knows what they would do unless faced with that choice. This is meant to expound on the previous ice age related question. If it all goes to hell and we are in a situation where we have the power to end a life because it is threatening other lives, is it and acceptable act to do so. How does that reflect on a person's makeup (STO/STS)? Divide by Zero seemed to make the argument that it would be wrong, but I just don't see it as that simple. I think it is a spur of the moment/instinctive decision, but what does that decision say about the person?
 

Tuatha de Danaan

Jedi Master
Yeah, I get that. What I was attempting to illustrate (maybe a bit clumsily) is how do differentiate between someone who is STO/STS. Would that type of murder (one, or all of those extreme examples) make someone STS? How about getting that opportunity and not taking it because killing one person is wrong. What if you had the foreknowledge of the events coming prior to them occurring and did nothing because killing is wrong.

You can make the argument that everything is as it should be and that God is in control and who are we to question reality and I'll "burn in hell" for going against all of that, but I gotta tell ya, I don't know that I would hesitate. I also understand that this is all speculation and no one truly knows what they would do unless faced with that choice. This is meant to expound on the previous ice age related question. If it all goes to hell and we are in a situation where we have the power to end a life because it is threatening other lives, is it and acceptable act to do so. How does that reflect on a person's makeup (STO/STS)? Divide by Zero seemed to make the argument that it would be wrong, but I just don't see it as that simple. I think it is a spur of the moment/instinctive decision, but what does that decision say about the person?

Yes, I can see what you are saying but all our questions seem to be couched in so many "what if's". I think Joe's answer seems the most grounded. Be true to your nature. That is something we can work on i.e. finding what our true nature is. Can we do that at least. It's a tall order.
 

Divide by Zero

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Yes, I can see what you are saying but all our questions seem to be couched in so many "what if's". I think Joe's answer seems the most grounded. Be true to your nature. That is something we can work on i.e. finding what our true nature is. Can we do that at least. It's a tall order.
True to nature? I'd gladly try to stop Hitler etc, even if it somehow stops people from learning lessons.

Anyway, who says the lessons had to be learned that way? What we know about these "karmic lessons" is not exactly clear. They actually sound quite limited and linear. What is non-linear? Exactly what Joe said- to jump in to save a kid on instinct/automatic reaction. My point to him was that a lot of things are not as STO as we think. There's little to no free will involved when the "low road" brain wiring takes over and you decide to save a child drowning (despite the huge risk), or go back in time to stop a horrible event.

The work itself dictates that the worst thing to do is lying to oneself, correct? I can't lie that I would do things out of anger. According to the ideals of STO, that's pure STS. Well, at least I don't lie to myself about it. Or maybe some people don't feel that anger for injustice? If so, I envy them, because feeling angry about the BS going on in the world is not fun. It sucks!

Well, to think that a police officer or you or me jumped into a river to save a child because we were STO is the same hero worship that runs all over religious and war heroes. This is the exact thing that angered me, this childish idealistic view that only good would do it. Maybe I'd kill Hitler because I knew he was a part of the system that lead to the current semi-fascism around the world. Maybe someone else does it because their family died in the holocaust. Any one of us really STO? No.
 

c.a.

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Well, to think that a police officer or you or me jumped into a river to save a child because we were STO is the same hero worship that runs all over religious and war heroes.
Police and fire are not obligated (to take chances as jumping into a river), by contract. It has to do with a quick and difficult assessment for the life of the victim, and as well as his own. And as well as his crew, or partners safety.

There are just time's, when some, (if not many), go above and beyond the call of duty. It is a very challenging, and difficult position to have to navigate.

FWIW! ;-)
 
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