Emotional stiffening and Pure and Impure Emotions.

[Jones]

Anart:

Quote from: j
It has just occurred to me that the above would impact on my ability to be empathetic....kind of psychopathic or ponerized.

Yeah, that's the stiffening of the most humane, compassionate and wholly human parts of ourselves. Those parts open us up to getting hurt a lot - but they're also our only hope out of this mess, not only individually, but as a species.

I recognised this in process today...I didn’t quite catch it from the beginning though. I did my best to keep everything below the neck for the day and just observe what was going on in me. Not sure how successful I was with this.

My stepdaughter received a note from her father. Their relationship hasn’t been great and they haven’t really communicated for nearly two years. He indicated in his note that he would like to try again with their relationship and told her that he loved her and missed her.

She was very emotional, crying and talking to us about how she felt about that. For me there was a very brief feeling of sadness I think, I’m not sure though, but very quickly it was covered by fear and anger.

I was uncomfortable with the above exchange and didn’t want to be around it. I felt the stiffening and realised that my breathing became shallower.

I recognised the urge to try and think about the magic thing to say that could fix it for her....so she wouldn’t be so emotional.

Once again, I see how this whole process had little by way of empathy for her and it was a way for me to try to prevent her from feeling what she was feeling, but also to prevent myself from feeling. Thing is though...I didn’t stop feeling, I just felt something different.

The fear and anger I felt is I believe the negative introject from my mum....she couldn’t deal with our emotions as kids and I think she may have been reacting from fear and anger. I think I’ve taken my mothers emotions and turned them on myself.

Can the emotional stiffening be formed from other emotions?

I’m wondering about what Gurdjieff said about ‘pure and impure emotions’.

Gurdjieff:

It is current to talk about "pure" and "impure" emotions; but we do not know how to define their difference. A pure emotion is one which is not mixed, which never seeks personal profit. An impure emotion is always mixed, it is never one; it is mixed with personal profit, with personal elements; it has sediments of other emotions.

So, my reaction in the above was impure. There was the original emotion that I didn’t quite catch, maybe sadness or grief, then fear and anger. The personal profit or personal element was in the fear and anger side of it. For me, fear and anger represent the wish to either withdraw from a threat, or to make the threat move away. The threat being that I might feel the underlying sadness or grief and the program running predicted that I may be attacked for feeling the original emotion.

In writing this out, I’m beginning to see the connection to the emotional intellectualisations that I use as buffers because I also suppress the fear and anger then intellectualise because the emotional reactions of fear and anger also got attacked.

It’s kind of like when the original emotion got attacked, I perhaps started reacting in the same way my mother might – from out of fear and anger, perhaps because that was what was modelled to me as a way to be. But then mum couldn’t handle seeing herself in me, so she attacked that too. This reflects some of the reading from the Narcissism Big 5.

So there seems to be three different levels so far...the original emotion, then the emotions that come up to cover the original emotion, then I go into my head to try and find facts and figures to both stop the emotions in others, and in myself.

 

[pstott]

So the initial response would be a real emotion, the cover-up feelings would be either a learned response or a result of what Gurdjieff termed "crystallization", and the third "in your head" stuff is not emotion at all, but the mental processes stepping in to try to manipulate things. I think he referred to such things as "incorrect use of centres".

IMO the thing to work on here is to try to let go - not suppress. Just let the first emotions manifest and activate the impartial observer to watch what happens without trying to change anything.

 

[Jones]

Ah.

I'd not connected the term 'crystallisation' with the term 'learned response'. If that is the case then it does make some sense for me now.

 

[Ca.]

Ah.

I'd not connected the term 'crystallisation' with the term 'learned response'. If that is the case then it does make some sense for me now.

Session September 15, 2009
https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,13716.0.html

Laura, Ark, PL, Joe, A***, DD, Allen, Keit, C**, Scottie, G***

Q: (L) Hello.

A: Pause. Hello.

Q: (L) And who do we have with us this evening?

A: Soriah of Cassiopaea 6th density transmission.

Q: (L) Alright. First of all I guess, is there anything that you have to communicate with us before we begin asking any questions?

A: Ask questions to stimulate flow.

Q: (L) Alright. First of all, A*** {a friend doing the breathing/meditation program} is having a really hard time. She's going through some kind of - close to - an emotional breakdown sort of thing. Of course, she is concerned that she's just losing her mind. Other than what I've said to her, is there anything to add information-wise about what she's going through?

A: Her experience is similar to yours due to her rigid stubbornness.

Q: (L) Okay, so she's rigidly stubborn similar to the way I'm rigidly stubborn. Because of that, she's going to suffer as much in the breakdown as I did. Is that it?

A: Yes

Q: (L) I see.

A: If one crystallizes on the wrong foundation it means much more suffering.

Q: (L) Are you saying that she crystallized on some foundation, and I did too?

A: Yes

Q: (L) Were they similar foundations?

A: No

Q: (L) But just that it was a crystallization of some sort?

A: Yes

Q: (L) And what caused or what was the nature of this crystallization?

A: Necessity for survival of trauma.

Q: (L) Well, there are some other people who have suffered certainly much more trauma, or at least equal trauma, who I didn't notice going through any kind of similar really outrageous suffering.

A: They didn't crystallize, they split.

Q: (L) So one difference is that some people crystallize to survive, and some people split to survive. Is that it?

A: Yes

Q: (L) And I guess if you split to survive, all you have to do is bring yourself together and merge, and therefore it is somewhat easier than somebody who has crystallized and has to break everything down. Is that it?

A: Yes

Q: (L) So that's one of the reasons for some of the different experiences among the people in the forum for example. Is that the case?

A: Yes

Q: (Joe) Maybe people who split, reintegration happens over a longer period of time, where they slowly, slowly, slowly put themselves back together, so the suffering is in little bits at a time. Whereas people who crystallize hold it off until all at once something has to break down... (L) Yeah, people who crystallize resist probably more. I think that was the case with me...

A: Yes

Q: (L) So, okay... And there's some people who are having very mild experiences, and there are some people who aren't having much experience at all. What is going on with people who are not having much in the way of experience?

A: They are fusing smaller segments a little at a time. Tell them to be patient and persistent. At some point they will see their own progress in retrospect. It is like walking up a gentle mountain slope.

Q: (L) So in other words, they're the lucky ones!

A: Depends on the makeup and potential for strong emotions.

Q: (L) Any other questions on that particular topic? Any particular cases that stand out? (Ark) I think I am an example of the lucky ones. (C**) Yeah, me too. (L) You did it gradually. (Keit) Well, back in C****, I thought I was going crazy as well. Now I'm kind of okay. (A***) I had a horrible experience the other night. Joe and I were doing the whole program, and I kind of switched into a vision where I was being tortured. My fingernails were being pulled off, and I started crying couldn't stop. It was pretty traumatic. But that was the first time that something like that happened. (DD) I had a dream the second night after I did the first whole program. I was in a scenario where I was with a person who was a dangerous person. And I was being stalked by police or the army or something. And I was held by the neck by this person, and he had a thing that was about half the size of a hay hook that was made out of a thin wire. And he stuck it into my kidney on the right side, and when he would pull on it, it was like a taser shock. And I screamed myself awake at about 6 o'clock in the morning. It was the strangest dream I've ever had in my entire life. I woke myself up screaming at the top of lungs. Fortunately, that hasn't recurred. (L) What is the nature of some of these really upsetting dreams and experiences that people here and people in the forum are having?

A: Memories of lives of pain and suffering that remained unresolved at the end of those lives. We are sorry that some of this is painful, but this method is actually the least traumatic method of any for this purpose. Once the dark dreams are processed out of the system, all will be better. Then there are no more hooks for illusion to attach to.

Q: (L) In other words, then people are able to be less controlled by hidden unseen or unknown emotion and more able to... (Keit) Assess reality and reactions to see what is objective...?

A: Yes

Q: (L) I have noticed that quite a number of people on the forum seem to be getting smarter. Is that just - they really seem to be getting things, putting things together, and...

A: When energy is no longer needed to support illusion it is available for knowledge and awareness.

Q: (L) So there's a lot more hope for people than they even suppose. Even more than they suspected?

A: Just remember that the slow breathing and the meditation and prayer are the most important components. If things move too fast then cut out the round breathing doing it only occasionally.

Q: (L) If things move too fast… (PL) That's exactly what I noticed. In the beginning I was doing round breathing, meditation a lot. And since I had trouble to get to sleep, I was praying one hour or two hours until I went asleep. That's when I got all those very bad dreams about getting stabbed and shot and cut and tortured. It was going too fast. Apparently, the more you do it, the faster the purging of those memories and illusions goes. (L) So, you can gauge your own process by how uncomfortable you are. And if you're uncomfortable, back off the round breathing and just do the meditation. The meditation and the prayer are the gentle, subsurface healing process I think. Is that correct?

A: Yes

 

[whitecoast]

I recognised this in process today...I didn’t quite catch it from the beginning though. I did my best to keep everything below the neck for the day and just observe what was going on in me. Not sure how successful I was with this.

My stepdaughter received a note from her father. Their relationship hasn’t been great and they haven’t really communicated for nearly two years. He indicated in his note that he would like to try again with their relationship and told her that he loved her and missed her.

She was very emotional, crying and talking to us about how she felt about that. For me there was a very brief feeling of sadness I think, I’m not sure though, but very quickly it was covered by fear and anger.

I was uncomfortable with the above exchange and didn’t want to be around it. I felt the stiffening and realised that my breathing became shallower.

I recognised the urge to try and think about the magic thing to say that could fix it for her....so she wouldn’t be so emotional.

Once again, I see how this whole process had little by way of empathy for her and it was a way for me to try to prevent her from feeling what she was feeling, but also to prevent myself from feeling. Thing is though...I didn’t stop feeling, I just felt something different.

The fear and anger I felt is I believe the negative introject from my mum....she couldn’t deal with our emotions as kids and I think she may have been reacting from fear and anger. I think I’ve taken my mothers emotions and turned them on myself.

Can the emotional stiffening be formed from other emotions?

I’m wondering about what Gurdjieff said about ‘pure and impure emotions’.

Gurdjieff:

It is current to talk about "pure" and "impure" emotions; but we do not know how to define their difference. A pure emotion is one which is not mixed, which never seeks personal profit. An impure emotion is always mixed, it is never one; it is mixed with personal profit, with personal elements; it has sediments of other emotions.

So, my reaction in the above was impure. There was the original emotion that I didn’t quite catch, maybe sadness or grief, then fear and anger. The personal profit or personal element was in the fear and anger side of it. For me, fear and anger represent the wish to either withdraw from a threat, or to make the threat move away. The threat being that I might feel the underlying sadness or grief and the program running predicted that I may be attacked for feeling the original emotion.

In writing this out, I’m beginning to see the connection to the emotional intellectualisations that I use as buffers because I also suppress the fear and anger then intellectualise because the emotional reactions of fear and anger also got attacked.

It’s kind of like when the original emotion got attacked, I perhaps started reacting in the same way my mother might – from out of fear and anger, perhaps because that was what was modelled to me as a way to be. But then mum couldn't handle seeing herself in me, so she attacked that too. This reflects some of the reading from the Narcissism Big 5.

So there seems to be three different levels so far...the original emotion, then the emotions that come up to cover the original emotion, then I go into my head to try and find facts and figures to both stop the emotions in others, and in myself.

Congratulations on learning to see something in yourself you have not been able to see before, Jones. :)

What you're describing sounds like a relatively common reaction, in terms of impure emotions blocking the proper expression of purer human emotions. The deadening of the sadness you felt, replaced by fear/anger sounds like a fight-or-flight-or-freeze reaction. In this, the body isn't just leaving your sorrow on its own. It associates it with being attacked, physically or emotionally, and so your upper vagus nerve (associated with social connections and higher emotional content) shuts down in favor of more primitive reptilian or vegetative emotions (such as fear, anger, etc.) taking over to run the show.

My reaction in this state is similar to yours, because I also tend to become highly cerebral when I feel attacked, and try to argue or consider or dispute my way out of a problem. Though in your case it seems like you also use your mind to try and "talk" your emotions into suppression. This is ironic, because your higher emotions are already being subdued by your primitive emotions/instincts taking hold! So it's sort of a positive feedback loop. :P

One of the first steps in healing this is to uncouple the feelings of sadness/empathy from triggering instinctive fight-or-flight-or-freeze. Regular practice of EE helps to stimulate the vagus nerve, and helps to suppress the dissociative response which is linked to the mental center being usurped by your instinctive center. You can read a lot more about the science of this in Peter Levine's In An Unspoken Voice: How the Body Heals Trauma and Restores Goodness.

 

[obyvatel]

One practical and effective way to navigate the choppy waters of emotional response is through body awareness. There is an intimate connection between the body and emotions which has been explored at various levels. Candace Pert, author of "Molecules Of Emotion" has investigated the molecular basis of emotions. Stephen Porges, author of "Polyvagal Theory" has linked emotional expression and regulation to the evolution of the autonomic nervous system and more specifically, the role played by the mammalian vagal system. Peter Levine has provided practical insights into the relationship between body awareness and postures with emotional regulation in "In An Unspoken Voice" - snippets of which are discussed here .

In this instance, the first fleeting feeling invoked was of sadness. This quickly gave way to fear and anger. A strong show of emotion from others can overwhelm the social engagement response (mammalian vagal system) and then one has to fall back on the older and perhaps habitual fight-or flight response governed by the sympathetic nervous system. Since there is no real enemy to fight, the physiological attitude of striking out is thwarted and that arousal energy gives rise to the posture of anger. Similarly the flight response of running away from a perceived dangerous situation is not carried out - and that energy puts the body in the posture of fear. Under the influence of these emotions, the intellectual brain starts to figure out a way to address the internal situation which has little bearing on the external environment.

To respond appropriately to the situation in the moment, one needs to decouple the body sensations from the accompanying internal images (like that of mother reacting with fear and anger at displays of emotion in childhood) and thoughts. Body awareness is a tool that can be used here. If we are able to recognize that our breath is shallow, the jaw, shoulders and neck are tensed , the emotions would not be able to carry us away. Later on, the writing exercises as suggested in the Redirect thread would help process the memories triggered by the incident.

fwiw

 

[Jones]

Just wanted to let you know that I appreciate the replies here.

I've been back and read them a few times, and I've been waiting for a similar thing to happen so that I can observe it again to try to tie it all in with the explanations that you've given.

I read the thread 'In an Unspoken Voice' but think I'll need to get the book and will do so to get a better understanding of what is happening.

Whitecoast:

My reaction in this state is similar to yours, because I also tend to become highly cerebral when I feel attacked, and try to argue or consider or dispute my way out of a problem. Though in your case it seems like you also use your mind to try and "talk" your emotions into suppression. This is ironic, because your higher emotions are already being subdued by your primitive emotions/instincts taking hold! So it's sort of a positive feedback loop. :P

:P

I've also been thinking about this....I think there is some internal motivation for that because I find being 'stuck' for want of a better word in the fear/anger very uncomfortable...it's like having your foot on the brake and the accelerator at the same time. I'm wondering if I'm actually using the head talk as a type of 'freeze'.

I have been somewhat hit and miss in following the full EE program though and will make a more concerted effort with that. I have been doing POTS every night though.

Curious that I had a dream about all of this though and I was in a similar emotional state. The was a thought of 'just give it up' and in the dream I just surrendered to it all and there was sense of relief.

 

[Iron]

One thing that I noticed about me, regarding body awareness, is that sometimes, during discussions where the other part disagrees harshly with the point I'm making (getting aggressive in tone of voice and such), I begin to shiver/shake my torso. It's subtle, so I don't think that others notice. In the past before EE, my voice even started to tremble, due to this.
At this point usually I start to compromise so to not still be engaged in what became , in my view, a debate rather than a discussion to enlighten.

 

[TOTEM36]

The fear and anger I felt is I believe the negative introject from my mum....she couldn’t deal with our emotions as kids and I think she may have been reacting from fear and anger. I think I’ve taken my mothers emotions and turned them on myself.
...................
It’s kind of like when the original emotion got attacked, I perhaps started reacting in the same way my mother might – from out of fear and anger, perhaps because that was what was modelled to me as a way to be. But then mum couldn’t handle seeing herself in me, so she attacked that too. This reflects some of the reading from the Narcissism Big 5.

That was insightful about the connection to the introject, and making sense of why the parent reacted to emotions that way.

To respond appropriately to the situation in the moment, one needs to decouple the body sensations from the accompanying internal images (like that of mother reacting with fear and anger at displays of emotion in childhood) and thoughts. Body awareness is a tool that can be used here. If we are able to recognize that our breath is shallow, the jaw, shoulders and neck are tensed , the emotions would not be able to carry us away. Later on, the writing exercises as suggested in the Redirect thread would help process the memories triggered by the incident.

fwiw

Im happy this has been said, because something i learned is that by just concentrating on the where the energy is located in your body with full intelligence is very powerful to deactivate the emotional-thinker. Also i believe journalling really helps on making those connections to the introject as in Jones example.

 

[Jones]

She was very emotional, crying and talking to us about how she felt about that. For me there was a very brief feeling of sadness I think, I’m not sure though, but very quickly it was covered by fear and anger.

After more observation I've discovered another twist to the above. I don't think it was sadness at all - it was guilt. My mother frequently used emotion to manipulate us, and the manipulation was often loaded with guilt trips. I believe what is happening in this programmed loop is that I immediately feel guilty in the presence of someone who is emotional, then fear and anger because I am, on a level, expecting some manipulation.

But manipulation is very difficult to fight openly, and in my experience it can be very detrimental to even try. Perhaps this is something that I learned quite early in life and perhaps here is my own contribution to me suppressing emotions.

The most immediate solution that comes to me is to give up taking responsibility for how others feel about themselves. But that seems quite black and white. So I'm a little confused here.

 

[Gonzo]

It's really hard to use our logic when the emotional mind is so engaged. But if you imagine that a friend or colleague were telling you the same story, perhaps you might see it differently. From a strictly rational perspective, try to consider why someone be should be responsible for how someone else feels about themselves.

As well, perhaps you could consider whether feeling responsible for the thoughts and feelings that others have for themselves is a form of projection. If this is the case, what can you learn from those projections, since they would really be about you and not the other person.

Aside from projection, concerning oneself with how other people are feeling is often a childhood skill acquired to ensure the child keeps certain people's feelings in a certain direction to ensure they are not rejected or harmed.

Gonzo

 

[obyvatel]

The most immediate solution that comes to me is to give up taking responsibility for how others feel about themselves. But that seems quite black and white. So I'm a little confused here.

In the specific situation that you narrated, the emotional reaction had nothing to do with you. You may have started replaying an old childhood drama thus making it about yourself, which was not reality. If we are able to keep our personal dramas out of the picture ( a tall order - I have not reached that stage yet), then we can respond appropriately to the reality of the situation - which in this case could have meant lending a patient empathetic ear to what your step-daughter had to say. Other situations may require different responses - but the key I think is in realizing when we are projecting our own dramas into a situation. Self-observation, networking, writing exercises and knowledge input help us uncover our recurring personal dramas so we can catch them more frequently as they come up.

My 2 cents

 

[Buddy]

But manipulation is very difficult to fight openly, and in my experience it can be very detrimental to even try. Perhaps this is something that I learned quite early in life and perhaps here is my own contribution to me suppressing emotions.

I know what you mean. I either know of or have some horrendous emotional manipulators in my life. For the most hard-core cases, Gonzo is right about logic being useless. Some people even seem to have some kind of 'ultimate' leverage to use against a challenger anyway.

The most immediate solution that comes to me is to give up taking responsibility for how others feel about themselves. But that seems quite black and white. So I'm a little confused here.

For me, it depends on who it is and I agree with obyvatel here. On occasion I have simply sat with head slightly cocked to the side, eyes fully opened, watching their eyes and face and just listened, paying full attention to what is being communicated.

I've learned to be careful with acknowledging noises, though, because people generally don't seem to understand how someone can hear them out without either agreeing or disagreeing with them. If you disagree with them, they may accuse you of making them feel like nothing or like their pain is all their own fault. If you agree with them, it may come back on you later as an accusation of lying or betrayal or something.

 

[Sol Logos]

It might be that the grief and sadness was triggered by some early experience related to what happened to you as a child Jones. But the point is being an emotion, there's a disconnect when trying to pin point the event intellectually, because it's not a thought but a feeling. It's kind of like trying to teach yourself how to swim outside the water, while helpful its not ever going to be experienced until you let yourself get wet. It's hard I know, most of us have been subject to parenting that is oppossed to expressions of emotions from the moment we're born ie "control crying". And so, what choice did we have than to internalize our parents' modifications of us? The way I understand it is that under the anger there's fear because the state of fear is a powerless place, so it's angers' job then to regain power and avoid being fearful. Or it might be just as well guilt here too. So under the fear has to be something we are afraid of feeling or we feel ashamed or guilty of being, and that could be the childhood experience, the one that was thwarted by not being able to experience the pure emotion then and there. Going back a few steps as you've mentioned the intellect can often be a great cover of the underlying anger, we can, with the intellect easily justify things and project blame outwards for instance. I reckon though Obyvatel hit the nail on the head by talking about body awareness, it's through connecting with our body, through EE for example that helps reconnect with feeling all these things.

 

[threecaster]

A good friend of mine has some serious problems. PTSD from 'nam, and I think his heart Chakra may be nearly closed off.
He and spouse are on the rocks, with him blaming her for everything, because she has real trouble conforming to his expectations, and he's blaming her for those shortcomings. (The girl works really hard, runs the town's Charity Warehouse)

I'm trying to decide if I can help him with some kind words and maybe plant some seeds, but whew....It'd be a hard row to hoe, and I think he'd kick me out before letting me dig into his own self. But the more they fight, the more he only worries about his money.

Talented guy, very gentle, but I think he's stiffened up to the point, I fear he may break soon.

Jones: How you seem to percieve and interpret your emotional (re)actions jives greatly with where I used to be. IMO you are on the right path by "stepping out" of the drama so you can get a good look at things.

I often probe what aspects of the "Big Picture" are at work in any particular situation.

If someone offers you only two choices, this should set off bells. Some folks (as it sounds you are aware) are very good at hiding the fact they are trying to get you to make a choice, either of which is likely to go in only one direction.

Pressing their point against a higher, relevant source, or looking at "what are we ultimately trying to accomplish here" will offer you some insight (and some firm ground) upon which you can press Objective Inquires upon the person who is trying to steer things.

This releases you from the choice, and allows you to disarm the situation without getting any of the sticky on you that they were making, or hurting their feelings, or prevents feeding their selfish fires by eliminating implications or accusations.

Usually, selfish persons cannot fathom a Point Of View that orginates from Universal Love, and dialing in a facet relevant to their POV may be tricky, but you can try anyways.....

Smiles and Laughter Throughout Your Happy Home