Enneagrams

Therpo

The Force is Strong With This One
Today I stumbled /rolled on to personality typology according to the enneagram. I find it fascinating as it reminded me a lot of Jung's work, but also of the character types one gets in role playing games such as Dungeons and Dragons. I wonder if there are people who have more than one primary type (and not just in the form of wings)?
 
The enneagram is a vieile science, it was declined under several forms, of which the one that we find in numerous books on the psychology. But it doesn't look like any more the original idea, in particular the one than Gurdjieff had developed. The enneagram consists of two laws: The law of 7, say law of the entropy, a curve which rises to come down again and which would represent any life or any action, it's the déderminé fate of every thing. Then the law of 3, it is will, the free will.
Most part of people is in the law of 7 and rest thus dependent on accidents. Some persons know the law of 3 and can thwart the programs. Gurdjieff seemed as a rule to master the law of 3, thus the ennéagram in general, but the car accident which it has had, made say to Mouravieff, that Gurdjieff didn't master everything.
 
The only value I've ever found in studying the Enneagram (which is only a theory) are the insights gained from seeing the interconnections between ideas that I may have received from my efforts to try to understand it. In other words, if you think you understand it, or that it's something that can be figured out, then you don't understand it. Imo, it's only in the effort, that is, the 'active mentation' to understand it where it may have any value at all.
 
kenlee said:
The only value I've ever found in studying the Enneagram (which is only a theory) are the insights gained from seeing the interconnections between ideas that I may have received from my efforts to try to understand it. In other words, if you think you understand it, or that it's something that can be figured out, then you don't understand it. Imo, it's only in the effort, that is, the 'active mentation' to understand it where it may have any value at all.

I am splitting hairs here, but in the Tales, the term used is 'active-being-mentation', which is definately different to 'active mentation'. Were you referring to the Tales with the mention of that concept??

Kris
 
RflctnOfU said:
kenlee said:
The only value I've ever found in studying the Enneagram (which is only a theory) are the insights gained from seeing the interconnections between ideas that I may have received from my efforts to try to understand it. In other words, if you think you understand it, or that it's something that can be figured out, then you don't understand it. Imo, it's only in the effort, that is, the 'active mentation' to understand it where it may have any value at all.

I am splitting hairs here, but in the Tales, the term used is 'active-being-mentation', which is definately different to 'active mentation'. Were you referring to the Tales with the mention of that concept??

Kris

Yes, it appears that you are splitting hairs. Any idea why you were compelled to do so?
 
anart said:
RflctnOfU said:
kenlee said:
The only value I've ever found in studying the Enneagram (which is only a theory) are the insights gained from seeing the interconnections between ideas that I may have received from my efforts to try to understand it. In other words, if you think you understand it, or that it's something that can be figured out, then you don't understand it. Imo, it's only in the effort, that is, the 'active mentation' to understand it where it may have any value at all.

I am splitting hairs here, but in the Tales, the term used is 'active-being-mentation', which is definately different to 'active mentation'. Were you referring to the Tales with the mention of that concept??

Kris

Yes, it appears that you are splitting hairs. Any idea why you were compelled to do so?

I mentioned this because 'active-being-mentation' has a definate correlation to the Enneagram as taught by Gurdjieff.

Kris
 
Therpo said:
Today I stumbled /rolled on to personality typology according to the enneagram.

The source of using the enneagram for personality study is Oscar Ichazo followed by Claudio Naranjo, Riso, Hudson and others. This did not come from Gurdjieff. Gurdjieff distinguished between personality which is a product of culture, education and imitation of others with essence which is what a person is born with. Essence is largely suppressed in modern civilization while the formation of personality is governed by accidental factors. This perhaps makes such typology not very useful in the context of the Work.

There are some interesting discussion on types in ISOTM.

[quote author=ISOTM]

"Each of you," he [Gurdjieff] said, "has probably met in life people of one and the same type. Such people often even look like one another, and their inner reactions to things are exactly the same. What one likes the other will like. What one does not like the other will not like. You must remember such occasions because you can study the science of types only by meeting types. There is no other method. Everything else is imagination. You must understand that in the conditions in which you live you cannot meet with more than six or seven types although there are in life a greater number of fundamental types. The rest are all combinations of these fundamental types."

"How many fundamental types are there in all?" asked someone.

"Some people say twelve," said G. "According to the legend the twelve apostles represented the twelve types. Others say more."

He paused.

"May we know these twelve types, that is, their definitions and characteristics?" asked one of those present.

"I was expecting this question," said G. "There has never been an occasion when I have spoken of types when some clever person has not asked this question. How is it you do not understand that if it could be explained it would have been explained long ago. But the whole thing is that types and their differences cannot be defined in ordinary language, and the language in which they could be defined you do not as yet know and will not know for a long time. It is exactly the same as with the 'forty-eight laws.' Someone invariably asks whether he may not know these forty-eight laws. As if it were possible. Understand that you are being given everything that can be given. With the help of what is given to you, you must find the rest. But I know that I am wasting time now in saying this. You still do not understand me and will not understand for a long time yet. Think of the difference between knowledge and being. There are things for the understanding of which a different being is necessary."

"But if there are no more than seven types around us, why can we not know them, that is, know what is the chief difference between them, and, when meeting them, be able to recognize and distinguish them?" said one of us.

"You must begin with yourself and with the observations of which I have already spoken," said G., "otherwise it would be knowledge of which you would be able to make no use. Some of you think you can see types but they are not types at all that you see. In order to see types one must know one's own type and be able to 'depart' from it. In order to know one's own type one must make a good study of one's life, one's whole life from the very beginning; one must know why, and how, things have happened.
................................................

When speaking of "types" G. once said:
"Have you noticed what a tremendous part 'type' plays in the relationship between man and woman?"

"I have noticed," I said, "that throughout his whole life every man comes into contact with women of a definite type and every woman comes into contact with men of a definite type. As though .the type of woman for every man had been predetermined and the type of man predetermined for every woman."

"There is a good deal of truth in that," said G. "But in that form it is, of course, much too general. Actually you did not see types of men and women but types of events. What I speak of refers to the real type, that is to say, to essence. If people were to live in essence one type would always find the other type and wrong types would never come together. But people live in personality. Personality has its own interests and its own tastes which have nothing in common with the interests and the tastes of essence. Personality in our case is the result of the wrong work of centers. For this reason personality can dislike precisely what essence likes—and like what essence does not like. Here is where the struggle between essence and personality begins. Essence knows what it wants but cannot explain it. Personality does not want to hear of it and takes no account of it. It has its own desires. And it acts in its own way. But its power does not continue beyond that moment. After that, in some way or other, the two essences have to live together. And they hate one another. No sort of acting can help here. In one way or another essence or type gains the upper hand and decides.
[/quote]

G also tied astrological influences to one's type or essence.

[quote author=ISOTM]

Astrology deals with only one part of man, with his type, his essence—it does not deal with personality, with acquired qualities. If you understand this you understand what is of value in astrology."
[/quote]
 
Yes we often speak about Oscar Ichazo... More than a year ago in November, 2011, I made a seminary on the dance dervish and the énneagrame, managed by Serge Troude of the institute of the 4th WAY OF GURDJIEFF INHERITANCE MONTREAU, near Fontainbleau. During the seminary there was the Granddaughter of G of Russian origin living in Normandy (Northwest of France) and a big and young pianist of the name of Christia Hudziy which played marvelously Rachmaninov, but divinely indeed musics of Hartmann and Gurdjieff. Serge Troude claimed to be the real heir of G, that he possessed unpublished documents, what I believed to understand.
He criticized a lot this Oscar Ichazo and then gave us an education onto the ennéagram, a summary of which I tried to make you. So on the various types of characters according to Mouravieff we possess 987 "I". He says that the strong character is when this "I" are homogeneous. I think that the enigma of the shepherd who wants to make cross the wolf, goat and the cabbage on a raft and being able to put only two on raft, illustrates the good all our personality and the way shows that the shepherd and one among the 987 others, but that it's him who must to manage... Saddened for this bad translation.
 
A friend of mine followed an intensive course called SAT ( searcher after truth) conducted by Naranjo a couple of months ago. There he was instructed on the nine types and guided to search his own.
Since he got back he started to stick type marks on anyone he meet.
That's the same things I saw With people considering bioenergetic types or Psicosintesi's ones.
To me it looks like searching for a shortcut into understanding personality wile a self observation, constant attitude would take buggers and constant efforts. This is perfectly in the stile of so Mitch of the New age workshops: fast experiencing, blasting opening so menthing, go back home and forget about it.
Although I can recognize myself in some specific traits of one type, I think the risk is to shove something under the rug, like:-" I see this, but it can't be' this way cause this belong to type 1 and I'm a 6 type".
Predator' mind anyone?
Also, G. Talks about the extreme complexity behind the enneagram symbol and it's value as a sum of the entire knowledge. Given that we are almost blind toward the understanding of symbols in their depots how can someone pretend to have The Knowledge about it?
The only thing I find of intrest is to remember that we are not that special and unique but just gradient of the same colors.
 
A friend of mine followed an intensive
course called SAT ( searcher after truth)
conducted by Naranjo a couple of months
ago. There he was instructed on the nine
types and guided to search his own.
Since he got back he started to stick type
marks on anyone he meet.
That's the same things I saw With people
considering bioenergetic types or
Psicosintesi's ones.

I've actually noticed myself doing this after reading some books by Riso, Hudson, and a student of Naranjo ^__^;; For what it's worth I try and take it with a grain of salt because I know from Strangers to Ourselves that the correlation between personality tests and people's actual behavior is quite low. People respond to certain situations in certain ways according to their programming. So I've actually found it more accurate to think of enneagram types as sets of behavioural strategies that may be activated at particular times depending on conditioning.

What I found to be quite interesting is that Riso and Hudson did link types to certain relationships between the centers. So if I notice a particular behavior in myself, I may have a hint at what particular discord in my centers is generating this behaviour. Obviously the fact that they match X with Y doesn't guarantee what is actually going on, and I have to search within my thoughts, feelings, and sensations to get a more accurate or verifiable notion. Theory is not a substitute for actually seeing, as G says in the above quote ftom ISOTM, but at the very least it gave an interesting starting hypothesis to lead to further self-examination.
 
Well, since both Oscar Ichazo and Claudio Naranjo were mentioned, I thought some of you would want to read an interesting forum discussion about enneagrams, enneagons
and related materials including the Gurdjieff connection, some of which were contributed by Sterling Doughty - a severe critic of Arica and Ichazo.

It can be found here: _http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3580&whichpage=1.#.UOxjg3eoE1o

The topic is rather long winded at times and it has been a while since I read it, but my memory states it is a very worthwhile read in the current context.

Doesn't hurt to give it a try... fwiw.
 
Palinurus said:
Doesn't hurt to give it a try... fwiw.

Unless wasting time and energy is "hurting", which it often is. The purpose and usefulness of the enneagram as it is currently understood has been discussed in other threads if you use the search engine, you'll find them.
 
anart said:
Palinurus said:
Doesn't hurt to give it a try... fwiw.

Unless wasting time and energy is "hurting", which it often is. The purpose and usefulness of the enneagram as it is currently understood has been discussed in other threads if you use the search engine, you'll find them.

Well 24 of the 81 results from an "Enneagram" search here come up me which worries me a little cause I can be confusing at times. I certainly would not get into Enneagram-Enneagon stuff unless you plan to be real practical about it. Like for the Food Diagram think diet, EE, and "impressions" that do the diet and EE and make things easier for others and don't let bad things into your "psychic" space.

If you do get into the "sacred" geometry then make that practical fast too via actual math. Wikipedia mentions Llull in relation to the Enneagram and a friend of Ark and Laura's (Tony Smith) relates Llull to Clifford Algebra.

The Ichazo/Naranjo basic model is OK but yes Ichazo may be less good of a person than Naranjo; I had a post about that in the "Imitation 4th Way Groups" thread. Laura related it to Keel's "The Eighth Tower."

Modern personality biases/health are really a different system than centers even if they are related.
 

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