Fomenko's "New Chronology"

I came across this today while searching around on Wikipedia, I don't know how much validity there is to Mr. Fomenko's theory, but its certainly interesting to think about.
The New Chronology of Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko is an attempt to rewrite world chronology, based on his conclusion that world chronology as we know it today is fundamentally flawed. The ideas of the New Chronology are a direct continuation of earlier theories of Nikolai Morozov. The theory is commonly associated with the name of Fomenko, although it is, in fact, a collaboration of Fomenko with several other Russian mathematicians, most important being Gleb Vladimirovich Nosovsky.

The "New Chronology" is radically shorter than the conventional chronology, because all of ancient Greek/Roman/Egyptian history is "folded" onto the Middle Ages, and antiquity and the Dark Ages are eliminated. According to Fomenko, the history of humankind goes only as far as AD 800, we have almost no information about events between AD 800-1000, and most historical events we know took place in AD 1000-1500. These views are entirely rejected by mainstream scholarship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Fomenko)
 
Yes, I am familiar with it and quoted Fomenko in "The Secret History of The World":

At this point we would like to make note of a curious series of remarks by the Master Fulcanelli in the first pages of his book Dwellings of the Philosophers. He tells us in his first sentences that there is a gross misconception about the Middle Ages common among scholars and laymen, produced by a written history that is not supported by the evidence. History tells us that the Dark Ages were a time of invasions, wars, famines, epidemics, and a host of disruptions to life and culture; yet the very same period was the time of the building of great cathedrals, monuments, houses, cities, and so forth; none of which bear the marks of such scourges. He then goes on to point out that art is entirely reflective of a culture, and generally only thrives during times of peace. The Gothic buildings - cathedrals and others - all undeniably reflect peace, serenity, prosperity, and a flourishing, happy society. The statuary, obviously having used live models, shows us plump, well-fed people, with jovial expressions, fond of good living and satire. Even gargoyles are more comical than frightening, and the suffering Christs are generally depicted as “resting” rather than actually in torment. As Fulcanelli points out, if that period of history had been as “dark” as it is depicted, had the people been suffering and moaning in misery of human affliction, the art would have depicted it. But it didn’t. Something is, indeed, inexplicably amiss here. And, as Fulcanelli points out:

it is easy to fabricate texts and documents out of nothing. […] Falsification and counterfeiting are as old as the hills, and history, which abhors chronological vacuums, sometimes had to call [counterfeiters] to the rescue.218
In the seventeenth century, a Jesuit Father, Jean Hardouin, uncovered a fraud wherein locals were creating ancient Greek and Roman coins and medals and burying them about the countryside to “fill in the gaps” of history as well as make money by selling such “finds.” In 1639, a certain Jacques de Bie published The Families of France, Illustrated by the Monuments of Ancient and Modern Medals, which, according to Anatole de Montaiglon contained more “invented medals than real ones.”219 Fulcanelli goes on to cite more instances in which the possibility - probability - that our history has been largely fabricated looms as an ever-growing specter of confusion. We will discover, as we go along, that this problem of falsification of history is not just an idea, but also a FACT.

As it happens, there are some eminent experts in the present day who have smelled the rat and who propose the exact same thing that Fulcanelli has suggested. When we investigate the matter, we discover that the chronology of ancient and medieval history in its present form was created and completed to a considerable extent in a series of works during the 16th and 18th centuries, beginning with J. Scaliger (1540-1609), the “founder of modern chronological science.” and D. Petavius (1583-1652). Chronology is what tells us how much time has elapsed between some historical event and the present. To determine real chronology, one must be able to translate the data in the ancient documents into the terminology and units of modern time reckoning. Many historical conclusions and interpretations depend upon what dates we ascribe to the events in a given ancient document.

The accepted traditional chronology of ancient and medieval world rests on a foundation of quicksand. For example, between different versions of the dating of such an important event as the foundation of Rome, there exists a divergence of 500 years. What is more, falsification of numbers was carried out down even to contemporary history. Alexander Polyhistor took the first steps towards filling up the five hundred years, which were wanting to bring the destruction of Troy and the origin of Rome into the chronological connection. But, was he helping, or further confusing the matter? As it happens, according to another chronology, Troy had fallen at the same time as the foundation of Rome, and not 500 years before it.

Isaac Newton, as we will see, devoted many years to historical and chronological studies. He made up his own tables that came to be the generally accepted timeline. A lot of people are not aware that some of the important events of Greek history were arbitrarily moved forward by him as much as 300 years, and those of the Egyptian were moved forward up to a thousand years. Naturally, penetrating minds were able to discern the problems and as early as the sixteenth century. A.D., Professor of Salamanca University de Arcilla published two papers in which he stated that the whole of history earlier than the fourth century AD, had been falsified.

In more modern times, the first serious attempt to systematize the considerable critical material, and to analyze historical paradoxes and duplicates from the standpoint of natural science was undertaken by a Russian scientist and academician, N. A. Morozov (1854-1946). In 1994, A. T. Fomenko, a Russian Mathematician, published Empirico-statistical analysis of narrative materials and its applications to historical dating. The abstract of this book says:

These two volumes represent a major, unique work, which is the first of its kind published in the English language. A comprehensive set of new statistical techniques is presented for the analysis of historical and chronological data. These techniques constitute a new important trend in applied statistics.
The first volume concentrates mainly of the development of mathematical statistical tools and their applications to astronomical data: dating of ancient eclipses, dating of Almagest etc. The problems of correct dating for ancient and medieval events are discussed.

The second volume concentrates on the analysis of ancient and medieval chronicles and records (such as Egyptian, Byzantine, Roman, Greek, Babylonian, European etc.). An astonishing wealth of historical data is considered.

The conclusions, which are drawn concerning the accepted chronological dating of events in ancient history, will certainly provoke controversy and serious debate. The author suggested a new chronology, which is dramatically different from the traditional one. […]

The book provides the necessary background and material for intelligent participation in such debates.220
Fomenko’s work deserves far more discussion than I can devote to it here. I would like to note that mainstream historians and archaeologists are crying “Foul!” about it despite the fact that he has drawn some extraordinary conclusions and presents his thorough analyses with logical arguments and a sincere desire to get at the Truth. As we have already noted, it is increasingly clear that the “status quo” is more important to some people than the Truth. Regarding the medieval period with which we are presently concerned, Fomenko points out that

We have discovered that there exists a strong parallelism between durations of reigns for English history of 640-1327 A.D. from one side and Byzantine history of 378-830 A.D. continued by Byzantine history of 1143-1453 A.D. from another side.

[This parallelism] suggests that Byzantine is an original in above parallelism, and England before 1327 A.D. - a reflection. It could be seen […] how English history before 1327 A.D. was constructed from several reflections of the Byzantine Empire of 1143-1453 A.D. […]

The reader asks: How could the Byzantine chronicles be inserted into medieval English history (of the island Anglia)? The answer will be extremely simple if we will erase from our minds the picture, which is imposed by traditional Scaliger’s chronology.

Starting from 11th century, several crusades stormed the Byzantine Empire. Several feudal crusaders’ states were founded on the territory of Byzantine empire in 11-14th cc. In these states many nations were mixed: local population, the crusaders from England, France, Germany, Italy etc. In these crusaders’ regions and in Byzantine Empire the new culture was created, in particular, were written a historical chronicle. Among Byzantine inhabitants were a lot of people from Europe, in particular, from some island, which later will be called England. In 1453 AD Turks conquered Constantinople. Byzantine empire was ruined and the crowds of its inhabitants left the country. Many of them returned to Europe, to their old homeland. In particular - in the island Anglia.

These descendants of crusaders took with them their Byzantine historical chronicle, because these texts describe their own real history in Byzantine Empire (during many years - one or two hundreds years). Several decades passed. On the island Anglia starts the writing its history (i.e., the history of the people living on the island). In 16-17th centuries some qualified historians appear and start to create the general history of the whole land Anglia (“from the beginning”). They search for ancient documents. Suddenly they find several old trunks with “very old” documents. The documents are dusty, the paper is very fragile, and the old books fall to pieces. These chronicles were transported from Byzantine Empire. But now (in 16-17th cc.) nobody knew this. Unfortunately, the prehistory of these trunks is forgotten. And, unfortunately, is forgotten that these chronicles describe the history of ANOTHER LAND.

The English historians of 16-17th centuries carefully analyze these texts as the history “of island England” and put them into the basis of “old British-island history, which started many centuries ago”. In some strong sense they were right because really the authors of the chronicles were closely connected with island Anglia (but, let us repeat, described ANOTHER LAND - Byzantine empire). This process is quite natural and does not suggest any special falsification of the history. Such natural errors were inevitable at the first steps of creating of the general history. As a result, appeared such chronicles as Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, the Nennius’ chronicle etc.

After some time this wrong version of an old English history standing stock-still, becomes a “monument”. Further historians simply modify (only a little) the initial scheme of the history, add some new documents. And only today, using some statistical and other methods we start to discover some strange regularities inside the “history textbook” and start to realize that the real history was possibly sufficiently shorter and that today we need to remove from the “old English history” its “Byzantine part” and return this piece to its right place (in time and in the geographical sense). This procedure is very painful. We realize this because we discovered the same problem in the old Russian history, when we also found several chronological duplicates.

It is possible, that this process of “insertion of an old Byzantine chronicle” in the beginning of a “local history” is presented for several different regions, which were closely connected with Byzantine Empire. In particular, it is true for Russia, for England, for Rome, for Greece. […].221
And what are those corollaries? Well, if Fomenko is correct, the ancient histories of Byzantium were carried to Europe, and because many of the local legends also arrived from that region of the world, i.e. the Nart sagas, it was assumed that this was the real history of Britain and even Europe. In short, Fomenko’s idea connects events from the time of Jesus, and the area of the world in which Jesus was said to live, to the general area of the world from which the Nart Sagas originated, the roots of the Grail Legends, and they may all be a mythicized history, and historicized myth of actual seed events of real history that has been, until the present time, incompletely understood.

Again and again we are finding the threads leading off to the east - to Russia, Siberia - which happens to be the general area of the land of Colchis. ‘Apollodorus tells us about Hercules:

When the labours had been performed in eight years and a month, Eurystheus ordered Hercules, as an eleventh labour, to fetch golden apples from the Hesperides, for he did not acknowledge the labour of the cattle of Augeas nor that of the hydra.

These apples were not, as some have said, in Libya, but on Atlas among the Hyperboreans. They were presented (by Earth) to Zeus after his marriage with Hera, and guarded by an immortal dragon with a hundred heads, offspring of Typhon and Echidna, which spoke with many and divers sorts of voices. With it the Hesperides also were on guard, to wit, Aegle, Erythia, Hesperia, and Arethusa. […]

Now Prometheus had told Hercules not to go himself after the apples but to send Atlas, first relieving him of the burden of the sphere; so when he was come to Atlas in the land of the Hyperboreans, he took the advice and relieved Atlas. But when Atlas had received three apples from the Hesperides, he came to Hercules, and not wishing to support the sphere, he said that he would himself carry the apples to Eurystheus, and bade Hercules hold up the sky in his stead. Hercules promised to do so, but succeeded by craft in putting it on Atlas instead. For at the advice of Prometheus he begged Atlas to hold up the sky till he should, put a pad on his head. When Atlas heard that, he laid the apples down on the ground and took the sphere from Hercules. And so Hercules picked up the apples and departed. But some say that he did not get them from Atlas, but that he plucked the apples himself after killing the guardian snake. And having brought the apples he gave them to Eurystheus. But he, on receiving them, bestowed them on Hercules, from whom Athena got them and conveyed them back again; for it was not lawful that they should be laid down anywhere.’222
It is extremely interesting to note the similarity between the hydra - a hundred headed snake - and the gorgon slain by Perseus. We also note the connections to the Hyperboreans, and the fact that the Golden Apples were given to Athena, who was also gifted with the head of Medusa by Perseus. Another interesting note is that the area where these apples were located was the Hesperides which is said, in the account above, to be in the Land of the Hyperboreans. We also want to note that the same general story is told about the Quest for the Golden Fleece:

No sooner did Pelias hear that than he bade him go in quest of the fleece. Now it was at Colchis in a grove of Ares, hanging on an oak and guarded by a sleepless dragon.’

Medea guided Jason to the fleece by night and used her drugs to send the guardian dragon to sleep, and then, carrying the fleece with her, made her way back to the Argos with Jason.’
Curiously, the name “Pelleas” occurs in a number of Grail Stories. The important thing is, however, that we have a sneaking suspicion that this Colchis is also the Hesperides - the Land of the Hyperboreans. We also wonder about the possible relationship between “Arcadia“ and Colchis. If the ancient “Athenians“ of Plato’s tale were not actually from Athens, as we know it, then it is also possible that a far more ancient “Arcadia” existed as well.
 
Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko

I am in Egypt and do not have access to Anatoly Fomenko's "New Methods of Statistical Analysis of Historical Texts. Applications to Chronology. Antiquity in the Middle Ages. Greek and Bible History. Vols.1, 2, 3."

Are there any scholars out there who are familiar with his work and are able to give a concise analysis or criticism of his work on "New Chronology"..?

Regards,

Nathaniel
 
Re: Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko

naethai said:
I am in Egypt and do not have access to Anatoly Fomenko's "New Methods of Statistical Analysis of Historical Texts. Applications to Chronology. Antiquity in the Middle Ages. Greek and Bible History. Vols.1, 2, 3."

I don't have the long version - I am not even sure it is in English. I have this:
http://www.revisedhistory.org/Investigation-eng-history.htm

My husband has the text in Russian and has translated parts of it for me, but he is not a historian and so cannot give an opinion on it.

[quote author=naethai] Are there any scholars out there who are familiar with his work and are able to give a concise analysis or criticism of his work on "New Chronology"..?

Regards,

Nathaniel
[/quote]

There are a couple of "debunkers" on the net that are listed at the bottom of the Wikipedia article linked above by Xman, but I would not rely on them as being the final word on the topic.

I also am not a scholar qualified to give an expert opinion.

What I do think is this: Fomenko noticed something that I also noticed which is that history seems to "repeat" itself. And here, he meant that it seems that our written history from one period is a duplicate of another period. His "take" on this was that history had been "faked."

Well, I agree with him on that. Here is what I wrote in Secret History:

When we investigate the matter, we discover that the chronology of ancient and medieval history in its present form was created and completed to a considerable extent in a series of works during the 16th and 18th centuries, beginning with J. Scaliger (1540-1609), the “founder of modern chronological science”. and D. Petavius (1583-1652). Chronology is what tells us how much time has elapsed between some historical event and the present. To determine real chronology, one must be able to translate the data in the ancient documents into the terminology and units of modern time reckoning. Many historical conclusions and interpretations depend upon what dates we ascribe to the events in a given ancient document.

The accepted traditional chronology of the ancient and medieval world rests on a foundation of quicksand. For example, between different versions of the dating of such an important event as the foundation of Rome, there exists a divergence of 500 years. What is more, falsification of numbers was carried out down even to contemporary history. Alexander Polyhistor took the first steps towards filling up the five hundred years, which were wanting to bring the destruction of Troy and the origin of Rome into the chronological connection. But, was he helping, or further confusing the matter? As it happens, according to another chronology, Troy had fallen at the same time as the foundation of Rome, and not 500 years before it.

Isaac Newton, as we will see, devoted many years to historical and chronological studies. He made up his own tables that came to be the generally accepted timeline. A lot of people are not aware that some of the important events of Greek history were arbitrarily moved forward by him as much as 300 years, and those of the Egyptian were moved forward up to a thousand years. Naturally, penetrating minds were able to discern the problems and as early as the sixteenth century. A.D., Professor of Salamanca University de Arcilla published two papers in which he stated that the whole of history earlier than the fourth century AD, had been falsified.

In more modern times, the first serious attempt to systematize the considerable critical material, and to analyze historical paradoxes and duplicates from the standpoint of natural science was undertaken by a Russian scientist and academician, N. A. Morozov (1854-1946). In 1994, A. T. Fomenko, a Russian Mathematician, published Empirico-statistical analysis of narrative materials and its applications to historical dating. The abstract of this book says:

These two volumes represent a major, unique work, which is the first of its kind published in the English language. A comprehensive set of new statistical techniques is presented for the analysis of historical and chronological data. These techniques constitute a new important trend in applied statistics.

The first volume concentrates mainly on the development of mathematical statistical tools and their applications to astronomical data: dating of ancient eclipses, dating of Almagest etc. The problems of correct dating for ancient and medieval events are discussed.

The second volume concentrates on the analysis of ancient and medieval chronicles and records (such as Egyptian, Byzantine, Roman, Greek, Babylonian, European etc.). An astonishing wealth of historical data is considered.

The conclusions, which are drawn concerning the accepted chronological dating of events in ancient history, will certainly provoke controversy and serious debate. The author suggested a new chronology, which is dramatically different from the traditional one. […]

The book provides the necessary background and material for intelligent participation in such debates.
Fomenko’s work deserves far more discussion than I can devote to it here. I would like to note that mainstream historians and archaeologists are crying “Foul!” about it, despite the fact that the work has drawn some extraordinary conclusions and presents a thorough analyses with logical arguments and a sincere desire to get at the Truth. As we have already noted, it is increasingly clear that the “status quo” is more important to some people than the Truth. Regarding the medieval period with which we are presently concerned, Fomenko points out that

We have discovered that there exists a strong parallelism between durations of reigns for English history of 640-1327 A.D. from one side and Byzantine history of 378-830 A.D. continued by Byzantine history of 1143-1453 A.D. from another side.

[This parallelism] suggests that Byzantine is an original in above parallelism, and England before 1327 A.D. - a reflection. It could be seen […] how English history before 1327 A.D. was constructed from several reflections of the Byzantine Empire of 1143-1453 A.D. […]

The reader asks: How could the Byzantine chronicles be inserted into medieval English history (of the island Anglia)? The answer will be extremely simple if we will erase from our minds the picture, which is imposed by traditional Scaliger’s chronology.

Starting from 11th century, several crusades stormed the Byzantine Empire. Several feudal crusaders’ states were founded on the territory of Byzantine empire in 11-14th cc. In these states many nations were mixed: local population, the crusaders from England, France, Germany, Italy etc. In these crusaders’ regions and in Byzantine Empire the new culture was created, in particular, were written a historical chronicle. Among Byzantine inhabitants were a lot of people from Europe, in particular, from some island, which later will be called England. In 1453 AD Turks conquered Constantinople. Byzantine empire was ruined and the crowds of its inhabitants left the country. Many of them returned to Europe, to their old homeland. In particular - in the island Anglia.

These descendants of crusaders took with them their Byzantine historical chronicle, because these texts describe their own real history in Byzantine Empire (during many years - one or two hundreds years). Several decades passed. On the island Anglia starts the writing its history (i.e., the history of the people living on the island). In 16-17th centuries some qualified historians appear and start to create the general history of the whole land Anglia (“from the beginning”). They search for ancient documents. Suddenly they find several old trunks with “very old” documents. The documents are dusty, the paper is very fragile, and the old books fall to pieces. These chronicles were transported from Byzantine Empire. But now (in 16-17th cc.) nobody knew this. Unfortunately, the prehistory of these trunks is forgotten. And, unfortunately, is forgotten that these chronicles describe the history of ANOTHER LAND.

The English historians of 16-17th centuries carefully analyze these texts as the history “of island England” and put them into the basis of “old British-island history, which started many centuries ago.” In some strong sense they were right because, really, the authors of the chronicles were closely connected with island Anglia (but, let us repeat, described ANOTHER LAND - Byzantine empire). This process is quite natural and does not suggest any special falsification of the history. Such natural errors were inevitable at the first steps of creating of the general history. As a result, appeared such chronicles as Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, the Nennius’ chronicle etc.

After some time this wrong version of an old English history standing stock-still, becomes a “monument”. Further historians simply modify (only a little) the initial scheme of the history, add some new documents. And only today, using some statistical and other methods we start to discover some strange regularities inside the “history textbook” and start to realize that the real history was possibly sufficiently shorter and that today we need to remove from the “old English history” its “Byzantine part” and return this piece to its right place (in time and in the geographical sense). This procedure is very painful. We realize this because we discovered the same problem in the old Russian history, when we also found several chronological duplicates.

It is possible, that this process of “insertion of an old Byzantine chronicle” in the beginning of a “local history” is presented for several different regions, which were closely connected with Byzantine Empire. In particular, it is true for Russia, for England, for Rome, for Greece. […].

And what are those corollaries? Well, if Fomenko is correct, the ancient histories of Byzantium were carried to Europe, and because many of the local legends also arrived from that region of the world, i.e. the Nart sagas, it was assumed that this was the real history of Britain and even Europe. In short, Fomenko’s idea connects events from the time of Jesus, and the area of the world in which Jesus was said to live, to the general area of the world from which the Nart Sagas originated, the roots of the Grail Legends, and they may all be a mythicized history, and historicized myth of actual seed events of real history that has been, until the present time, incompletely understood.

One of the things that I don't think Fomenko factors into his analysis is the possible periods of cometary disruption on the planet during some periods. For a more complete look at this problem, you can read my series of comet articles here:

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/145683-New-Light-on-the-Black-Death-The-Cosmic-Connection

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/146792-The-Hazard-to-Civilization-from-Fireballs-and-Comets

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/146859-Cosmic-Turkey-Shoot

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/147339-Wars-Pestilence-and-Witches

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/147955-Thirty-Years-of-Cults-and-Comets

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/148414-Comet-Biela-and-Mrs-O-Leary-s-Cow

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/148819-Tunguska-the-Horns-of-the-Moon-and-Evolution

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/151082-Letters-From-the-Edge

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/151954-Meteorites-Asteroids-and-Comets-Damages-Disasters-Injuries-Deaths-and-Very-Close-Calls

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/154007-Impact-Hazards-on-a-Populated-Earth-

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/156341-Of-Shoes-and-Ships-and-Sealing-Wax

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/156452-Israel-Two-Thousand-Years-of-Lies-Sixty-Years-of-State-Terrorism

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/160925-Tunguska-Psychopathy-and-the-Sixth-Extinction

I think that the threads I have pulled on in this series might give a lot of food for thought - even to Prof. Fomenko.
 
Re: Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko

Laura said:
What I do think is this: Fomenko noticed something that I also noticed which is that history seems to "repeat" itself. And here, he meant that it seems that our written history from one period is a duplicate of another period. His "take" on this was that history had been "faked."



Yes. The problem arises when he takes it further and reconstructs the history to what he thinks it should be. The picture he paints is Russian-nationalistic and self-congratulating. There is too much of "everything came from Russia". Batyi Khan, the Mongol leader, is the same person as Ivan Kalita, a Russian prince. The wise men who brought gifts to Jesus are actually the Russian prince Vladimir and his mother. Etc.

A friend took his classes in college and had said that back then he was very sharp, both as a teacher and a mathematician. Not being a specialist, I can't judge his method though. But I think that in popular thought his results are discredited due to their undeniable "flavor", and perhaps, this is by [hyperdimencsinal] design, to discredit this area of research once and for all.
 
Re: Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko

Hi all,

Newbie tryng to "relaunch" this thread, here!

I propose a statistical analysis of Homer's Illiad.

But I'm no statistician, and no historian. If that has any use here, I'm a biology PhD.
Reading Iman Wilken's "Where Troy Once stood", I felt very unsettled. Is this guy laughable, saying Troy is in England, or are we all mistaken since so many millenia? I'm open-minded but frustrated, because:

Wilkens followers may say "he's right, of course, let's move on from that accepted starting point", but why blindly trust strangers who're not scholars stating 100% of the scholars are wrong (just don't ask why, we have no time for that).

Wilkens arguments do convince me, they're logical and compelling, but maybe his facts are wrong, or cherry-picked. Or maybe other logical and compelling arguments prove Troy is even more likely in Turkey, but Wilkens did not mention these.

It takes a specialist to sift through those two possibilities.

The scholar experts I contacted refused to counter Wilken's arguments or facts, but invariably insisted he is wrong (just don't ask why, we have no time for that).

Wilkens himself refuses to answer my (well-intended) e-mails since years.

So I thought of this:

Let's do some stats.

I don't have the time for that ;D but maybe you do, please let me know. I have a way to produce an OBJECTIVE assessment of the Troy in UK hypothesis. No need to trust someone's word, no need to even have an opinion beforehand, and -yieeha!- no need to know anything about history or archeology or esoterism ... But you need time, googlemaps and stats.

I first post this to probe if anybody has any interest in this out there (while typing the rest offline)

My next post will explain the method exactly.

bye
 
Re: Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko

Hi turing_machine,

Welcome to the forum. :) We recommend all new members to post an introduction in the Newbies section telling us a bit about themselves, how they found the cass material, and how much of the work here they have read. Thanks.
 
Re: Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko

turing_machine said:
Reading Iman Wilken's "Where Troy Once stood", I felt very unsettled. Is this guy laughable, saying Troy is in England, or are we all mistaken since so many millenia? I'm open-minded but frustrated, because:

Wilkens followers may say "he's right, of course, let's move on from that accepted starting point", but why blindly trust strangers who're not scholars stating 100% of the scholars are wrong (just don't ask why, we have no time for that).

Wilkens arguments do convince me, they're logical and compelling, but maybe his facts are wrong, or cherry-picked. Or maybe other logical and compelling arguments prove Troy is even more likely in Turkey, but Wilkens did not mention these.

It takes a specialist to sift through those two possibilities.

The scholar experts I contacted refused to counter Wilken's arguments or facts, but invariably insisted he is wrong (just don't ask why, we have no time for that).

Wilkens himself refuses to answer my (well-intended) e-mails since years.

So I thought of this:

Let's do some stats.

I don't have the time for that ;D but maybe you do, please let me know. I have a way to produce an OBJECTIVE assessment of the Troy in UK hypothesis. No need to trust someone's word, no need to even have an opinion beforehand, and -yieeha!- no need to know anything about history or archeology or esoterism ... But you need time, googlemaps and stats.

I first post this to probe if anybody has any interest in this out there (while typing the rest offline)

First of all, I don't think you should rely on someone else doing what you suggest. nobody has enough time. Everyone is working flat out, to the max (it should be pretty obvious from the huge amount of background work that goes into producing the material here), so suggestions are always welcome, but if you have some burning questions and really want something doing... y'know, you'll probably have to do it, or at least start it, and present your line of thinking, and what you might intend to do. Which I don't think is unreasonable. and maybe someone else who is able and sees it as a relevant use of limited energy, may offer their help. and who knows what might happen.

Second, you may want to go and check out the Gog Magog hills in Cambridgeshire. Apparently the area in question is something to behold.

Third, I don't think your reaction is particularly unusual. yup, Wilkens' hypothesis may be rather disturbing, because he turns the accepted reality on its head. But he puts together a very strong case. I would guess he has had his life made extremely difficult because of his work, by those who resist thinking out of the box (ie most almost everybody, especially within academic circles). So you may find him frustrating, but if you consider it from his point of view, he probably has had a huge amount of negative experience from 'crazies' who have homed in on him specifically because what he says is controversial, so I would imagine he has a certain resistance to freely discussing his work with anyone who comes along.

btw, welcome to the forum. I hope you are not too disappointed by my suggestions, I'm just trying to point out the value of personal initiative, and committing one's own energy:

J. W. von Goethe said:
Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back, always ineffectiveness. Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have occurred. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favour all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamed would have come his way. Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now.
 
Re: Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko

Nomad said:
First of all, I don't think you should rely on someone else doing what you suggest. nobody has enough time.

I don't, you obviously don't, but maybe someone else does (it should be pretty obvious from the huge amount of background work that goes into producing the material here !)

I will exactly present my line of thinking soon,
FYI, it took me years to articulate it, no lazy daisy here, rest assured

Nomad said:
Second, you may want to go and check out the Gog Magog hills in Cambridgeshire. Apparently the area in question is something to behold.
Check. I read the book's both editions many times over, google-earthed the place (very beautiful and obviously an artifact), and went there solely to see the Gog Magog hills in Cambridgeshire, although I don't live in Great Britain, had little time, little money, and was not sure what to think of Wilkens ! Result: I feel immensely privileged to have been there.

Nomad said:
Wilkens' hypothesis may be rather disturbing, because he turns the accepted reality on its head. But he puts together a very strong case. I'm sure he has had his life made extremely difficult because of his work, by those who resist thinking out of the box (ie most almost everybody, especially within academic circles).
Agreed. Strangely, Felice Vinci's book, "The Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales" is praised by some scholars, although it also puts the accepted reality on its head. That's even more confusing, now!
“It is hard to overstate the impact, both scholarly and imaginative, of Vinci’s compellingly argued thesis. . . . Scholars will be rethinking Indo-European studies from the ground up and readers of Homer’s epics will enter fresh realms of delight as they look anew at the world in which Homer’s heroes first breathed and moved.”
(Professor William Mullen, department of classics, Bard College )

Anyway, I'll post the method as soon as I've translated it in English, and see what happens.
 
Re: Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko

turing_machine said:
Nomad said:
First of all, I don't think you should rely on someone else doing what you suggest. nobody has enough time.

I don't, you obviously don't, but maybe someone else does (it should be pretty obvious from the huge amount of background work that goes into producing the material here !)

I think you missed Nomad's point - if you want to gather statistics, then gather statistics. Don't expect others to do it for you. There are too many other very, very pressing things to do here!!

t said:
I will exactly present my line of thinking soon,
FYI, it took me years to articulate it, no lazy daisy here, rest assured

Is this supposed to be a 'tease'? If you have something to say, please just say it. Also, it would be greatly appreciated if you would introduce yourself in the Newbie's section so we have some idea of how you found us. Thanks - and welcome to the forum. :)
 
Re: Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko

anart said:
turing_machine said:
Nomad said:
First of all, I don't think you should rely on someone else doing what you suggest. nobody has enough time.

I don't, you obviously don't, but maybe someone else does (it should be pretty obvious from the huge amount of background work that goes into producing the material here !)

I think you missed Nomad's point - if you want to gather statistics, then gather statistics. Don't expect others to do it for you. There are too many other very, very pressing things to do here!!

t said:
I will exactly present my line of thinking soon,
FYI, it took me years to articulate it, no lazy daisy here, rest assured

Is this supposed to be a 'tease'? If you have something to say, please just say it. Also, it would be greatly appreciated if you would introduce yourself in the Newbie's section so we have some idea of how you found us. Thanks.

oh, OK, I clearly get the point, I'll do my stuff on my own, then.
No intention to further waste your and my time.
The tease was "I have something interesting to propose. It takes long to type. While I translate it into English, I ask online if anybody's interested, since I'm answering your 2007 thread in 2009"
Nobody has time for that, you both claim immediately.
OK, that tells me I want to leave this place for good. Delete or save my posts, I'm OK both ways.

Good luck with your many other very, very pressing things to do here!!
FYI, I found you by typing "iman wilkens" in google groups
 
Re: Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko

turing_machine said:
oh, OK, I clearly get the point, I'll do my stuff on my own, then.
No intention to further waste your and my time.
The tease was "I have something interesting to propose. It takes long to type. While I translate it into English, I ask online if anybody's interested, since I'm answering your 2007 thread in 2009"
Nobody has time for that, you both claim immediately.
OK, that tells me I want to leave this place for good. Delete or save my posts, I'm OK both ways.

Good luck with your many other very, very pressing things to do here!!
FYI, I found you by typing "iman wilkens" in google groups

Wow, you really only see things from your own point of view, don't you? That's pretty impressive. I was simply stating that if you have something to share - please share it and don't just allude to having something share. If it needs translating, then fine - and I can see how that takes time.

Also, if you have a big statistics project, then why ask others to do it for you? Why not do it yourself if you think it is that important - or at LEAST start it, so others can then kick in help?

Seriously -no one asked you to leave - no one even implied that they weren't interested. We are just asking you to say what you have to say and to not rely on others to do the bulk of the work for you. Why did that result in a bit of a tantrum you've thrown here?

We also asked for an intro, but I see that fell on deaf ears as well. You haven't even been polite enough to introduce yourself, yet you expect to have us do your statistics work for you?

Quite frankly, it appears you came here expecting something and when you didn't immediately get it, you're storming out - with not one thought for the needs of anyone but yourself.

Or, perhaps you just stumbled upon this forum and were floating an idea with no idea of what is done here or context and were expecting an enthusiastic reply. In receiving an honest, and not enthusiastic reply, you decided to take your ball and go home? I think that's unfortunate.
 
Re: Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko

turing_machine said:
oh, OK, I clearly get the point, I'll do my stuff on my own, then.
No intention to further waste your and my time.
The tease was "I have something interesting to propose. It takes long to type. While I translate it into English, I ask online if anybody's interested, since I'm answering your 2007 thread in 2009"
Nobody has time for that, you both claim immediately.
OK, that tells me I want to leave this place for good. Delete or save my posts, I'm OK both ways.

Good luck with your many other very, very pressing things to do here!!
FYI, I found you by typing "iman wilkens" in google groups

I think you are massively overreacting, which as anart says, is unfortunate. What's that all about?! I hoped I was clear in what I wrote, but sometimes it is difficult to put across in words just how important it is to take full personal responsibility, hence the Goethe quote which I edited in as an afterthought. maybe you missed that, as I didn't put it in to start with.

As anart re-iterated, the point is to START if there is a huge amount to do on a particular project, and share what you are doing in a clear a way as possible, so that those who may have something to contribute can do so more effectively.

Perhaps you can take another look at your response and consider if your self importance has been roused? That will only get in the way, if your aim is to sincerely share efforts of research. If you are able to really 'see' and get over this aspect of yourself (which everyone has to some degree), then there is no reason not to share and collaborate.
 
Re: Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko

Just adding my two cents -

I would have liked to have heard what this guy (Turing_machine) has to say. Would it have been too difficult to just say "We can't guarantee that anyone will be respond, but you are welcome to share your method with us - we are always interested in networking and learning."

People who are new to this forum don't know all the "rules" and it appears to me that they are often scared off or angered by the way their initial posts are responded to. A little diplomacy could go along way.

Tendrini
 
Re: Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko

tendrini said:
People who are new to this forum don't know all the "rules" and it appears to me that they are often scared off or angered by the way their initial posts are responded to. A little diplomacy could go along way.

Could you please reference where you feel that this occurred, specifically. Giving broad descriptions of what you consider to be insensitivity to new members isn't very constructive. Please be specific.
 
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