“G” Asked “O” To Travel To Great Lengths - For No Reason?

[Menna]

It has been a decade or so since I read ISOTM and other “O” books but I remember a segment that has stuck with me from the “O” books.

In them there was a situation where if I remember correctly “G” asked “O” to travel to meet him I believe on a train. “O” followed “G” request and when “O” arrived “G” told him to go back.

“O” became upset and I believe this ruined his relationship with “G” because of the effort it took to meet the request.

There is a lesson here and I think I get it. One needs to be able to work hard at something and when finished have it destroyed, ruined, for not, or be irrelevant or end up in the same place before the work started even after it was finished and be “ok” with what transpired. To be truly happy to be able to be happy and content and emotionally and intellectually stable one needs to work towards a goal or work at something hard get close to completion and or completion have the work be undermined, taken away or have circumstances place you backwards and one needs to be able to keep centered to reach an A tough place to be but only then can one truly BE

*And I think the reason “G” did this was so that “O” wouldn’t take himself so seriously…self importance is one hell of a drug

 

[Renaissance]

*And I think the reason “G” did this was so that “O” wouldn’t take himself so seriously…self importance is one hell of a drug

Yeah, I think that's probably right. Gurdjieff did these kinds of exercises with other people too, and it seems Ouspenski thought he was too important for such things. He was a remarkably smart guy, but to his own detriment too.

 

[Zzartemis]

Certainly, as you say, @Menna , Ouspensky had a difficult time weathering the contradictions Gurdjieff put forth to him. Indeed, it has been told that Gurdjieff made Ouspensky cry tears of frustration! But there were other things going on within O and behind the scenes.

Gurdjieff was Ouspensky's 'spiritual father' and G did not live up to Ouspensky's expectations of what he wanted from G.

Ouspensky was an intellectual, overly so, where he could not bring Gurjieff's teachings down into his heart, as Ted Nottingham mentions in the video below. Also noted is that Ouspensky never completely broke with Gurdjieff, as he continued to send funds to G...and students.

From my readings, I've come to the conclusion that Mouravieff helped drive the wedge between G and and O even further. IMO Mouravieff hounded Ouspensky to get out of him the gist of Gurdjieff's teachings. Mouravieff, other than adding clarity did not create his system, it was all G, except where Mouravieff added in the stuff on Polar Beings and layed it over with Christianity. The other that Mouravieff which was not Gurdjieff's was the idea of living the same life over and over, as if in a film....This he might have gotten from Ouspensky's teaching on eternal recurrence...

Mouravieff looked down on G and on Ouspensky also...he abandonded O like O did G...
Mouravieff convinced Ouspensky not to publish ISOTM and published his own Gnosis after the dearlths of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky...what a guy!

 

[Zzartemis]

Certainly, as you say, @Menna , Ouspensky had a difficult time weathering the contradictions Gurdjieff put forth to him. Indeed, it has been told that Gurdjieff made Ouspensky cry tears of frustration! But there were other things going on within O and behind the scenes.

Gurdjieff was Ouspensky's 'spiritual father' and G did not live up to Ouspensky's expectations of what he wanted from G.

Ouspensky was an intellectual, overly so, where he could not bring Gurjieff's teachings down into his heart, as Ted Nottingham mentions in the video below. Also noted is that Ouspensky never completely broke with Gurdjieff, as he continued to send funds to G...and students.

From my readings, I've come to the conclusion that Mouravieff helped drive the wedge between G and and O even further. IMO Mouravieff hounded Ouspensky to get out of him the gist of Gurdjieff's teachings. Mouravieff, other than adding clarity did not create his system, it was all G, except where Mouravieff added in the stuff on Polar Beings and layed it over with Christianity. The other that Mouravieff which was not Gurdjieff's was the idea of living the same life over and over, as if in a film....This he might have gotten from Ouspensky's teaching on eternal recurrence...

Mouravieff looked down on G and on Ouspensky also...he abandonded O like O did G...
Mouravieff convinced Ouspensky not to publish ISOTM and published his own Gnosis after the dearlths of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky...what a guy!

Just a note due to my own vanity and lest others think I'm hopeless at spelling and grammar....I have great difficulty using touch screens...When I pass my hand over such screens, my....what?...magnetism?....
activates keys I never touch! So...I couldn't edit my edit within the allotted time...I blow out street lights and make electronics go crazy!

 

[nicklebleu]

There is a lesson here and I think I get it.

Maybe it is also a case of the journey being more important than the result. I know this from my own experiences that for me the result is very important, and the journey is just a means to ‘get there’ as quickly and efficiently as possible. But if the journey becomes the important part, then the result is not so important, and you can discard it easier.

Not sure if that was part of what G wanted to teach O.

 

[whitecoast]

In them there was a situation where if I remember correctly “G” asked “O” to travel to meet him I believe on a train. “O” followed “G” request and when “O” arrived “G” told him to go back.

Hi Menna, would you be able to share that section you're referring to? Since we're speculating about motivations and so on I think it would be helpful to have that on hand.

 

[Menna]

Hi Menna, would you be able to share that section you're referring to? Since we're speculating about motivations and so on I think it would be helpful to have that on hand.

See below. I left the book ISOTM behind in my recent move so I went to the internet for the example that I mention (maybe what I am talking about is from another 4th way book): I always thought there was something there, a teaching a reason why “G” did the below to “O”.
With recent events in my life and my recent conversation with a dear friend that just can’t let go of the past and past efforts (even with current success and blessings) this example below came up in my mind.
Yes, there is speculation my speculation is we come from “the one” and we return thus there’s always a beginning middle and beginning again. Is there really an end. To work for years or decades and have a lot of that work be undone how would that affect you intellectually, emotionally would it drive you mad? Can you come to peace? Can you dig a hole fill it back in and walk away? Or do you need a reason? Consideration from others and life? I believe “G” did this to impact “O” emotional center and how it impacts his intellect and how once his intellect is activated now his actions are defined hence the relationship downgrade between “G” and “O” hence my realization of my own “downgrade” between my dear friend and I or an “upgrade” for me as I am now lighter without the negative attachment of that friends centers. Based on the realization that we are on and we have chose different paths. What I need to do doesn’t fully include his being as it has before and I say this with love, empathy and consideration

From this website: Master: A Living Message – Osho World

“London University invited him, because Russia was no longer a safe place; the first world war and the communist revolution were going on together. Gurdjieff was hiding in a very faraway part of Russia, Tiflis. It was almost another planet from London. And he asked Ouspensky to drop everything and come back to Tiflis. Ouspensky loved the man so much, he dropped his job, he dropped his work. He had opened a school in which he was teaching Gurdjieff’s message. He closed the school and went into a dangerous country where life was not safe. He arrived in Tiflis, and the moment he entered Gurdjieff’s room, Gurdjieff said, “Good, you have arrived. Now go back and resume your work.”

This was too much. Even Ouspensky, a man of such integrity, could not stand it. But Gurdjieff’s methods, devices were such. This was a moment of test, a test of trust. Ouspensky failed in that moment. He thought Gurdjieff was simply insane: “I wasted everything that I had arranged, traveled in a country where any moment I could have been killed — and he does not even say, `Sit down, rest.’ He says, `Good that you have come. Now just go back and resume your work.'”

He went back. Gurdjieff had impressed him immensely, so what did he do? He dropped Gurdjieff, but he could not drop the Gurdjieff with whom he had lived for years, or his teachings. A strange phenomenon happened. For him Gurdjieff was divided into two parts. He continued to teach only that part of Gurdjieff that was in tune with his logical mind.”

 

[Menna]

Yeah, I think that's probably right. Gurdjieff did these kinds of exercises with other people too, and it seems Ouspenski thought he was too important for such things. He was a remarkably smart guy, but to his own detriment too.

I believe “G” taught lessons in this way because of “time” he knew of “time is of the essence” (with all the wars and what not) and that “shocks” are needed, experiences are needed to fast forward learning however the fast of the lession/learning is where the jarring /trauma (heating up of the internal iron fillings a metaphor/example from that other very complicated 4th way book) of the centers happen and not every student can deal with the fast shocks and it may and can throw them off course, however “G” didn’t care if it throws one of course then there is no time for that one person as schools are for the collective and he needed “ A”students… I surmise “G” used his fast forward teaching as a “temperature gauge” a thermometer to where someone was at - at a certain time.

Believe me I bring this up because recently I prayed to go slower regarding lesions and esoteric wisdom/learning in this life time and I will do things in life to try and ensure that my evolvement is slower but I need help from outside too. I have things I want to experience in life that take time to evolve and my being can’t take the fast lessons while simultaneously moving toward wants. I want a fully aware and present intellectual and emotional center while moving forward as much as possible. Examples of “G” sock lessons doesn’t allow me “time” to operate because the jarring learning/trauma clouds my centers. I can’t untangle two things at once or go in two directions at the same time. I need to learn slower I choose to learn slower in order to progress in a healthy way for my being to live the life I want to live. I choose not to put myself in situations where I have to put forth super efforts/super strength I don’t feel I need to anymore.

It’s funny how “I get” what happened between O and G and the lesson and it was something in my subconscious for 13 years … hey I was talking to someone here about keeping things I don’t understand in my subconscious and weeks, months or years or a decade+ later the answer springs to the conscious… May I say Case In Point (I would tag the person but forget the name I think it started with an A) If you read this - THIS is what I mean in that other thread

 

[hlat]

I think you should re-read this entire session.

(Chu) What was Gurdjieff trying to achieve?

A: His own salvation and immortal life.

Q: (Joe) And was he successful?

A: Not by his terms. He was actually rather surprised!

Q: (Pierre) Was the surprise that after dying, he...

(Joe) That he got a lot wrong, yeah.

A: Yes

 

[Renaissance]

Believe me I bring this up because recently I prayed to go slower regarding lesions and esoteric wisdom/learning in this life time and I will do things in life to try and ensure that my evolvement is slower but I need help from outside too. I have things I want to experience in life that take time to evolve and my being can’t take the fast lessons while simultaneously moving toward wants. I want a fully aware and present intellectual and emotional center while moving forward as much as possible. Examples of “G” sock lessons doesn’t allow me “time” to operate because the jarring learning/trauma clouds my centers. I can’t untangle two things at once or go in two directions at the same time. I need to learn slower I choose to learn slower in order to progress in a healthy way for my being to live the life I want to live. I choose not to put myself in situations where I have to put forth super efforts/super strength I don’t feel I need to anymore.

Just a suggestion, but it might be worth looking at the values you want in 'going slower'. I just say this because going slower in and of itself doesn't seem like an actual value. I can see how there can be value derived from going slower for quite a number of things. However, if it is applied across the board, it could end up hindering you in some cases as well. It might also be helpful to examine if there are any underlying beliefs with this approach. I'm not saying you should change your approach either, maybe just flesh things out a bit. Sometimes I think we do get signals from our body and mind (and our environment too) that we need to slow things down, and that can be healthy to listen to. Just be careful about assigning such things as 'this is who I am'.

 

[whitecoast]

See below. I left the book ISOTM behind in my recent move so I went to the internet for the example that I mention (maybe what I am talking about is from another 4th way book): I always thought there was something there, a teaching a reason why “G” did the below to “O”.
With recent events in my life and my recent conversation with a dear friend that just can’t let go of the past and past efforts (even with current success and blessings) this example below came up in my mind.

I checked my own copy of ISOTM and didn’t find this story. Gurdjieff never spoke about Ouspensky in his own writing. I think there is a good chance Osho’s lecture may the the actual source you refer to. He has been known to invent apocryphal stories before.

It’s interesting to see how this story impacts you and how you view your own struggles over the past 13 years. Are there times in your own life where developing equanimity and non-attachment would have spared you from a lot of unnecessary suffering?

I want a fully aware and present intellectual and emotional center while moving forward as much as possible. Examples of “G” sock lessons doesn’t allow me “time” to operate because the jarring learning/trauma clouds my centers. I can’t untangle two things at once or go in two directions at the same time. I need to learn slower I choose to learn slower in order to progress in a healthy way for my being to live the life I want to live. I choose not to put myself in situations where I have to put forth super efforts/super strength I don’t feel I need to anymore.

For what it’s worth, I agree with you here. I don’t think in this particular story the teacher served the student properly if the lesson itself turned the student away from the work and harmed the strength of the group in the process.

As an aside, I have noticed that Gurdjieff did drive away a lot of men who were prominent students of his, who were in positions of teaching responsibility. I wonder if Gurdjieff was also subject to this treatment at an earlier time as well.

The C’s remarked that there was no one below him on the ladder to replace him. However that bellies their later statement that he slipped (and is therefore lower on the ladder). Reading between the lines on that I think there were times he could not meet people where they were, and this story about the train would be an example of that.

I second the questions of @Renaissance.

 

[Nević Nenad]

Or G, was just unconscious arrogant jerk, who didnt know how to respect people and situations and give everyone its due. And was triggered that intellectually superior person (and he thought that he was great intellectual) than he is, fell for him.

 

[Menna]

Just a suggestion, but it might be worth looking at the values you want in 'going slower'. I just say this because going slower in and of itself doesn't seem like an actual value. I can see how there can be value derived from going slower for quite a number of things. However, if it is applied across the board, it could end up hindering you in some cases as well. It might also be helpful to examine if there are any underlying beliefs with this approach. I'm not saying you should change your approach either, maybe just flesh things out a bit. Sometimes I think we do get signals from our body and mind (and our environment too) that we need to slow things down, and that can be healthy to listen to. Just be careful about assigning such things as 'this is who I am'.

Thank you for making me analyze my choice of words. This is a forum and I am typing from emotion intellect spirit and multifaceted experiences re analyzing words is important for proper frame of reference/perspective

I should replace “slower” with another S word … Smarter… I would like to learn smarter and use what I have learned before getting into different dynamics. However certain things such as others human psychology and other things within dynamics that are out of my control tend to blossom at certain times which force certain things to transpire hence why I said the word slower as I can work smarter (seeing someone get whipoed knowing what the whip is without experiencing it) however there is a life aspect and I would ask it or pray on it that it allows me to work smarter.

My centers have more wisdom/experience than years before however a jarring or drastic or fast learning experience like what “G” did to “O” requires “time” and fuel and energy to process and grok the lessons and wisdom from a jarring or extreme learning situation and my emotional and intellectual can’t handle other “important” life inputs and re calibrate back to center from the shocking lesson at the same time.

My want is to be able to “multitask” be able to not only progress in the work but have the fuel, energy and awareness of my centers to experience and enjoy and be fully (as much as possible) immersed in the day to day 4th way life as the esoteric lessons and day to day life are two separate things that make up the 4th way practice as a whole but there are parts of that whole. At this point in time space I don’t mind learning an important lesson in 2027 instead of learning one in Spring 2023 and beginning of summer 2023 and at the same time trying to enjoy relationships, building with others and a relaxing nice weathered weekend to give you specifics.

This is why I used the word slower at first because not being at the top of the ladder I am not talented enough to account for everything that happens in life and I notice even when I use experience/wisdom going into situations a negative or an unwanted effect still comes about (although not as drastic as if I was just a machine without any progress in the work it’s like I knew what ingredient to add to the dish but I didn’t put enough) but with this knowing all I can do is work smarter and maybe not be so hard on myself however life and fate and other more machine like humans all allow the lessons to come through and I want to be able to be more in the day to day of the 4th way and not so much drenched in the wisdom gathering jarring center part of the 4th way. But part of this want has to be allowed/granted

If this makes any sense.

And to bring it back to “G” and “O” I think G knew that “O”an intellect overpowered his emotion and was trying to show him something. The reason why this part of “O” and “G” relationship stuck in my mind for 13 years is that I though “G” was extremely rude for what he did but I also knew he had his “reasons” and I didn’t want to speculate away what the real reason was so I let it sit with me and after a few recent experiences I believe an important lesson is to be able to put your heart, body, mind, love, sweat, health, time and tears into something and have that something be undo or take large steps back and or all be for not for reasons out if one’s control and not have your lower emotional and intellectual center dominate your life in perpetuity or for a length of time.

At the time with the war and I’m sure other difficulties “G” did his teaching of this lesson his way as there may not have been time for tact. And to tell you the truth I do not know intellectually why certain things sit with me and I put the prices together later it’s not someone I control I can’t control things that are in the realm of hunches

 

[Menna]

It’s interesting to see how this story impacts you and how you view your own struggles over the past 13 years. Are there times in your own life where developing equanimity and non-attachment would have spared you from a lot of unnecessary suffering?

Of course, but I do feel that in this life there should be a form of healthy attachment to certain things like a profession/job for earning money/resources, a living space for survival, certain relationships for knowledge and love, your health for ease of this experience in general but the list of what attachments I think are needed practical attachments is 50 pages less than in the past.

My mental calmness is improving I have been able to adopt being sanguine more so than in the past. My negative mental loops are not as strong thanks to the work and knowledge/experience.

This stuck with me because after coming across what “G” did I said wow that was inconsiderate what about external consideration very rude….why?… they can’t talk it out these evolves men?
I didn’t want to over question and try to understand with a mind that wasn’t developed to understand. Luckily my self importance something I have but is not turned all the way up all the time so it allows me to let go and take steps back or put things in my pocket for later… This thread is that later even if I am wrong about what I think the who, what, when, where and why is I feel progressed enough and comfortable enough to broach the subject without also feeling like I am wasting everyone’s time.