Genealogy

thorbiorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Genealogy is in defined the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English, New Edition, 1987 defined as:
1. (the study of) the history of the members of a family from the past to the present.
2. an account of this for one particular family, especially when shown in a drawing with lines and names spreading like the branches of a tree

At some stage I noticed a link on one of the pages of Laura about genealogy, but it took some time for curiosity to overcome the associations of genealogy with dead corpses, funeral ceremonies and oddly sweet smelling graveyards of people I had never seen and knew less.

Nevertheless the day came for clicking and what a surprise to see so many names, so many countries, so far back, and all together reflecting numerous traces of history.

Shortly after an email from a family member informed that I had been enrolled in an online web page listing several names from my own family.

What a coincidence, so questions began to mount about what could be hidden behind all the blank spots. Who were the missing people, where were they from, and would it be possible to find them?

One problem of finding ancestors is that the amount of them doubles every generation. This means that ten generations back one will have 2 to the power of 10 which is 1024 ancestors, for 30 generations back, corresponding to about a 1000 years it will be 1024 to the power of three or 1024 x1024 x1024 which is above one billion. A thousand years ago there was not one billion on the planet so obviously some "inbreeding" has been taking place, therefore if one goes far enough back the numbers of actual ancestors will be much less.

A second problem in locating the name of an ancestor is that some babies were born out of marriage or do not have the father or in the case of adoption the mother the papers show.

A third obstacle is that in many countries in the world no archives exist or if they existed, they were destroyed due to fire, catastrophe, or social upheavals.

Nevertheless in some countries some archives DO exist, and some of it is even available on the net. As I looked up genealogy and genealogie, that is respectively the English and German/ French term in the search engines, plenty of results came. In the field there are both amateurs and professionals, there are associations, forums and web sites dedicated to the subject, books can be purchased on how to get started, and to make it easier software packages are available. Some offer assistance for a price, in which case one can expect the quality to vary, and the same is also true with the information available from the many who enjoy sharing their own findings.

Now to the lessons learned. We had an idea that there were not many nations involved in our line, but this turned out not to be true and it was nice to get a new perspective on the subtle imprinted nationalism. Another important lesson from doing this work was that if one does not only strive to uncover ancestors on the male lineages as is common, one becomes aware just how much linear thinking is behind this approach and how restricted and restricting this angle really is.

There is more one could write, but surely others must have made some experiences too. The inspirations behind the idea for this thread was an ancestor which we hypothesised would link us to Eastern Europe. In my frustration of not succeeding I thought about the Cassiopaean phrase "We are you in the future" and indeed, probably some of those we call ancestors are in 4th density or more.

thorbiorn
 
A

Anders

Guest
Genealogy is certainly an interesting phenomena and it can easily be contagious as Laura describes in the genealogy pages. I recently took up the bug but after dotting down what was written in family genealogy books in the family possession and what family members knew, then it seemed to just be a lifeless list of names.

I left it for a little while until I got curious to discover certain facial traits in my family that certainly didn't belong to the country where I was brought up. Having just read a book on the pendulum by T. H. Lethbridge (mentioned in Ancient Science) I decided to practice as Lethbridge had suggested and what better subject than the family history.

The methodology used was as such: I found out what a yes, a no and an open answer looked like. Secondly any response was only used as a guide for further research and NOT taken as Truth.

The result was that several conjectures were made and then the real fun started in seing if it was possible to verify any of these. This led to some rather interesting discoveries and the list of names came to life. The internet got put to use and as Thorbiorn writes has a wealth of information of varying quality. But as always the Truth is in the details. Census records can be useful and doublechecking/ triple checking with other sites is important. The difficulty starts when one discovers that the national identity gets fuzzy around the edges and are required to find information in other countries in various languages :)

If time indeed is an illusion and if what we do can affect a possible future then can it also affect possible pasts? There is some work done about family constellations started by a person called Bert Hellinger This work as far as I know deals with integrating a person with his/her larger family on an energetic level, thus bringing a sense of completion to a person.

Working with the genealogy has for me been an eye opener and continues to bring an inclusion of ancestors that have been excluded or forgotten and an acceptance of them and the choices that they made. What effect if any it has on an energetic level or in 4D is for me unknown, but I leave the possibility open that it may have an effect if the past and the future is fluidlike in an eternal present.

Transcript 940730 said:
What is chosen? Only you can choose. The choice comes by nature and free will and looking and listening. Where
you are is not important. Who you are is and also what you see.
Anders
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
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FOTCM Member
Well, my secret is out: at one period, I was totally obsessed with the genealogy project. I literally spent 9 or 10 hours a day tracking ancestors, ordering books, CDs of records, visiting graveyards, writing letters, entering data... gads, it was crazy.

I even created a wall chart by taping rolls of big poster paper together. The chart was 8 by 8 feet. I started writing the names and dates and important data on little colored slips of paper and pasting them on the chart starting at the center and going outward. It didn't take very long to fill the whole paper and I wasn't even close to done. I just wanted to see if there was any pattern of the repeats of "intermarriage" of which there was a lot (I separated lines by different colors).

I was unable to sleep many nights because I would hit a "brick wall" and couldn't go any further. There was no data, no clue, nothing. I spent weeks, sometimes, on just a handful of people - brick walls all of them.

Then, I wanted to just trace the female line. I had to stop in the 15th Century in UK. Haven't been able to take that one another step further despite numerous letters and inquiries on the net.

Finally, one day, Ark asked me if I was going to be satisfied when I finally made it back to Adam and Eve...

And I realized that I had learned a lot about myself doing this project and there really wasn't any need to keep going. In fact, some of my best "grail quest" clues came from doing the genealogy.

So, there it is on the net. The database really needs to be cleaned up and some corrections need to be made, but I haven't had a minute to mess with it for a long time. I even removed most of the genealogy stuff from my harddrive.

So, I have some great genealogy CDs and books that maybe I'll sell on ebay.
 

anart

A Disturbance in the Force
If you want to get 'past those brick walls', there are companies now that will take a sample of your dna to help you in your geneology research. Even my mother mentioned on the phone the other day, "in this day and age, who would want some company to have their dna??" All the easier to track you, my dear. =)
 
G

Guest

Guest
My brother was interested in genealogies, but his way was to track down aged relatives. Personally, I could trace my lines back a few generations where I found the lines were basically in the same geographic area for long periods of time.

So although I don't know specific, I do know that one line claimed to be descended from Byzantine Imperial advisors, another was from Bavaria, another from Genoa.

One side of my family was from an old Greek village said to have been founded by a ragtag group of Templars excaping persecution. I can't substantiate this, but it is curious that there is a Greek village with the name of Louvre.

One side of my family is allegedly descended from an ancient Peloponesian king (east of Sparta) who reigned during the time of the first Olympics. Another was from Sparta itself, pretty much believed to be continuous with the ancient inhabitants of that city. In fact, there is one view that the city was first founded by a group of Isrealites escaping Palestine during the Philistene invasion or thereabouts.

With all that hodgepodge of possibilities, I doubt if I could even begin to track my lineage in any systematic manner.
 

manitoban

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FOTCM Member
Some years ago, a relative of mine undertook to trace one branch of the family tree and apparently managed to trace it back to the year 800 AD. The reason she gave for being able to do this was because this branch was from Iceland, and I recall her saying that because there was very few trees, there hadn't been many fires -so the records were intact. She was also a translator of the old norse sagas, and she was able to find some of the ancestors in the stories so could kind of do a cross check. Long ago I had a look at one of the sagas featuring a character from our family history, but unfortunately I no longer have it as this relative has long since passed away. I haven't seen this material for many years, but this thread has inspired me to perhaps try and track it down and have another look at it.
 

thorbiorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
In Russian one uses "Otjestva" ex Nikolaevna or Nikoljevitch. This means that a child carries a special form of usually his or her father to denote that somebody is the son or daughter of such and such. For a comparison the name ""Anderson"" originally was not a tribe or family surname but simply meant that a certain man was the son of a person called ""Anders"".

Recently I had a correspondence with Anders from the forum. I had written that when one goes back in Scandinavian history, then one finds the same tradition of ""otjestva"" and was thinking that perhaps this style originated in Russia. However he had found something about Russian culture in a book called ""The Thirteenth Tribe"" by Arthur Koestler:
Arthur Koestler in ""The Thirteenth Tribe on page 90 said:
"...By that time, the closing of the tenth century, the 'Rus' had become transformed into 'Russians'. The early Rus princes and nobles still bore Scandinavian names which had been Slavonized: Rurik from
Hr
 

Zadius Sky

The Living Force
I got into genealogy a few years ago when my Uncle and Great-Aunt showed me their research on the family tree (on my mom's side of the family). Soon, they got me curious and I did my own research. I have noticed that they were too focused on the male line (same surname) and not the female line. So, I've traced the female line to Robert the Bruce of Scotland, which made me wonder who was "Robert the Bruce?" That's how I got into history and learn more about it.

I have never managed to get enough on my father's side since my great-grandfather came to America in early 1900s from Poland. I had difficulty obtaining information about my father's line in Poland, so I stopped.
 

Al Today

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Genealogy is indeed an additive hobbie. Although, it can get expensive. My observation is that sooner or later, ya just gotta go somewhere to dig up the documents in person. Travel to another country, somewhere on this BBM, go down to some monestary, church or any kinda hall-of-records and try to find documents. Problem is I ain't got that kinda money... So I stopped... Bummer...
 

thorbiorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Al Today said:
Problem is I ain't got that kinda money... So I stopped... Bummer...
Or possibly keep networking, some information may not be available now, but may become some time later. Many people in the world are interested in tracking and the further one goes back the more descendants the ancestors have. This means that more people living today would be potentially interested to know the same as you.

Thorbiorn
 

thorbiorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
The following may have some relationship to work with genealogy and how to relate to the results that may come. The section of the quote below that I am thinking of in particular is in blue. My reason is that if one continues long enough sooner or later there will be a king and sooner or later there may also come a saint or the opposite.

By the way. only today I saw that the second of my posts in this thread has no text. Why that is so, I do not know, I can't recall what happened or what I might have written, I do not think I deleted anything on purpose.


From THE SPIRITS’ BOOK by ALLAN KARDEC _http://www.allankardec.com/Allan_Kardec/Le_livre_des_esprits/lesp_us.pdf pages 132-134.
Relationship - Filiation
[...]
204. As we have had many existences, do our relationships extend beyond our present existence?

"It cannot be otherwise. The succession of their corporeal existences establishes among spirits a variety of relationships which date back from their former existences; and these relationships are often the cause of the sympathies or antipathies which you sometimes feel towards persons whom you seem to meet for the first time."

205. The doctrine of reincarnation appears, to some minds, to destroy family ties, by carrying them back to periods anterior to our present existence.

"It extends those ties, but it does not destroy them; on the contrary, the conviction that the relationships of the present life are based upon anterior affections renders the ties between members of the same family less precarious. It makes the duties of fraternity even more imperative, because in your neighbour, or in your servant, may be incarnated some spirit who has formerly been united to you by the closest ties of consanguinity or of affection."

-It nevertheless diminishes the importance which many persons attach to their ancestry, since we may have had for our father a spirit who has belonged to a different race, or who has lived in a different social position.

"That is true; but this importance is usually founded on pride: for what most people honour in their ancestors is title, rank, and fortune. Many a one, who would blush to have an honest shoemaker for his grandfather, boasts of his descent from some debauchee of noble birth. But, no matter what men may say or do, they will not prevent things from going on according to the divine ordering; for God has not regulated the laws of nature to meet the demands of human vanity."

206. If there be no filiation among the spirits successively incarnated as the descendants of the same family, does it follow that it is absurd to honour the memory of one's ancestors?

"Assuredly not; for one ought to rejoice in belonging to a family in which elevated spirits have been incarnated. Although spirits do not proceed from one another, their affection for those who are related to them by family-ties is none the less real; for they are often led to incarnate themselves in such and such a family by pre-existing causes of sympathy, and by the influence of attractions due to relationships contracted in anterior lives. But you may be very sure that the spirits of your ancestors are in no way gratified by the honours you pay to their memory from a sentiment of pride. Their merits, however great they may have been, can only add to your deserts by stimulating your efforts to follow the good examples they may have given you; and it is only through this emulation of their good qualities that your remembrance can become for them not only agreeable but useful also."


Physical and Moral Likeness
207. Parents often transmit physical resemblance to their children; do they also transmit to them moral resemblance?

"No; because they have different souls or spirits. The body proceeds from the body, but the spirit does not proceed from any other spirit. Between the descendants of the same race there is no other relationship than that of consanguinity."
[...]
Page 134
[...]

215. What is the cause of the distinctive character which we observe in each people?

"Spirits constitute different families, formed by the similarity of their tendencies, which are more or less purified according to their elevation. Each people is a great family formed by the assembling together of sympathetic spirits. The tendency of the members of these families to unite together is the source of the resemblance which constitutes the distinctive character of each people. Do you suppose that good and benevolent spirits would seek to incarnate themselves among a rude and brutal people ? No; spirits sympathise with masses of men as they sympathise with individuals. They go to the region of the earth with which they are most in harmony."

The above was published about 150 years ago. I do not think that a spirit only can go to a place with which it is in harmony. It must also depend on what the mission or its karma is.

Allan Kardec does mention the idea of a pre adamic man in one of his books; Genesis, though in general he does not put forward in clear terms a concept of OP's, higher densities, STS/STO.
 

sankara

Jedi Master
Hello,
Genealogy is highly interesting for all the above mentionned reasons.
My sister spent some times doing the family tree. I have a question for you all but first I will draw the picture as fast as possible. One side of the family has been peasants for as far as we could check. Good
The other side has been noble for quite long time, the 'fief' being in Normandy. At the origins, they were warrior knights with no castel. They got enoblished later on, this can be seen in a movie "Cyrano de Bergerac". My grand mother's great mother fall in love with the groom. He was poor, younger than her, but they loved one another. She gave her nobility tittles to her cousin and join... Humanity. This heritage is important, not because I can have many imagiantion and phantasy but because it has influenced the family until recently. My Grand mother and her sister, tho being the daughter of an ingeneer in electricity were still send to the family castle and got an some elements of education (my gran'ma for instance, tho being the wife of a workman, could paint and knew about botanic. her sister studied Steiner in the 30's of the XXth century)gave her the financing for my extra education. So even if my father was à truck driver and we lived in a suburb, I could have books, go to movie, museum Etc...
Sorry for all these details.
And now the question is:
We have a family album, which is really intriguing. It's has a hard leather cover on which the six pointed star is engraved. On the edge we find, on gold the french nobility symbol 'The flower of the lily'. The picture inside come from different country. Mostly France but also (England (the photograph is said to be working for the Kingdom), Italy and Turquey.
Would someone give me a clue about the meaning of both symbols ( rather odd, isn't it?)on this family book?
Is it like, you go to the big store, you like that one because ...you like it so it's gonna be your album?
Is it maybe that the people knew some meaning of joining these two symbols?
Thanks
 

Pierre

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
sankara said:
And now the question is:
We have a family album, which is really intriguing. It's has a hard leather cover on which the six pointed star is engraved. On the edge we find, on gold the french nobility symbol 'The flower of the lily'. The picture inside come from different country. Mostly France but also (England (the photograph is said to be working for the Kingdom), Italy and Turquey.
Would someone give me a clue about the meaning of both symbols ( rather odd, isn't it?)on this family book?
Is it like, you go to the big store, you like that one because ...you like it so it's gonna be your album?
Is it maybe that the people knew some meaning of joining these two symbols?
Thanks

Hi Sankara,

Is the lily flower white ? Does the flower have 6 petals ?
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Take some photos and upload them and give a link so we can have a look.
 

Craig

Jedi Master
Some interesting information here, with pictures:

The existence of the lily in the Holy Land has been a controversial topic. Historians believe the Biblical mention of "Lilies of the Field" actually refers to many wildflowers that grow in Israel and in particular, to the crown Anemone. However, botanists discovered colonies of Lilium Candidum growing in northern Palestine. They knew it was a wild plant because it was in a location untouched by civilization. This was a controversial discovery because botanists thought the Madonna Lily did not produce seeds. However, in 1916, a colony of seed producing Madonna Lilies were found, thus ending the debate. Botanists believe that environmental changes led to the decrease in the numbers.

Hot dry summers of Israel today do not suit the growth requirements and late summer blooming habit of this lily. Today it can be found in cooler mountain areas near streams in the Galilee. One perfect location is the hills surrounding the Montfort Crusader castle built by Templar Crusader knights in the early 12th century. (...)

Of all the flowers mentioned in the Bible, lilies are mentioned the most. The lily was used in the scriptures in many a romantic poetry, and are mentioned in the Old Testament as decorative carvings on pillars in palaces and temples. But most of all they are mentioned in Solomon's Song of Songs.

"I am the rose of Sharon and the lily of the valleys." Songs of Solomon, 2:1
"As the lily among thorns, so is my love among daughters." Songs of Solomon, 2:2
"My beloved is mine and I am his; he feedeth among the lilies. Songs of Solomon, 16
" And its rim was like the rim of the cup, like a lily blossom." King I, 7:26
"I will be like the dew to Israel; he will blossom like a lily." Hosea 14:5 (...)

King Solomon was captivated by this flower and used it as the original symbol for his seal which today we know as the Seal of Solomon. (Hexagram, Star of David) The lily with its white petals resonates purity and symbolism and venerates divinity. The lily possesses a phalic rod which thrusts forth from its interior, making it uniquely hermaphroditic in its symbolism.

The Hexagram is associated with the Biblical Solomon, known as the Star of David. It represents divine union, being composed of a female watery triangle and a male fiery triangle, which correspond to lily's hermaphroditic make up. The Hebrew word for lily Shoshan is usually rendered whiteness and it derives from a root meaning six, which fits well with the petal number of Lilium Candidum and in return the six pointed star of David. (...)

Many scholars attemted to trace the star of David back to King David himself, but all evidence suggested otherwise. The earliest known Jewish use of the hexagram was a a seal in ancient Israel. (6th century AD) Legends connect this symbol with the seal of Solomon. I believe the origins of the Hexagram and its meaning came from the lily which Solomon adored and chose as his symbol.
 
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