Gulags in China?

Niall

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Another thought exercise (for Americans): the CCP has consistently funded, networked with, and even militarily-trained, an imaginary Muslim Black separatist movement in a part of the USA where large numbers of Muslim Blacks live - say, everywhere south of a line from Arkansas to North Carolina. They've already carried out dozens of terror attacks, both within these states and in some neighboring states. Assuming it even allows the situation to reach that point, how might the US federal government respond? And how would you feel about it? Primed by Chinese intelligence reports planted in the media, would you be motivated to comb through inmates' individual files (assuming the federal government hadn't by then just blown the whole region to kingdom come) to find judicial errors?
 
Last edited:

Approaching Infinity

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Good questions. I'd like to know the answers!
Also, there are 22 million people in Xinjiang region. 12 million are Uyghur. The capital city of Xinjiang region is Ürümqi, with a population of 3.5 million, with about half a million being Uyghur. How many of these 12 million or .5 million live peaceably with the Han Chinese, and why?
Hard to say without statistics, but I'm guessing the vast majority. I've read Han Chinese talking about living in Xinjiang and how they personally get along just fine and have Uighur friends. That won't necessarily apply to everyone, but seems to be the norm from what I can tell.
Or are they all signed up to some separatist group (directly or indirectly)? If not, why?
I think there's probably a natural limit of some sort of the percentage of any population willing to join up with a separatist group. You get a small percentage who will join or at least take an active part in their activities, a larger percentage who will support them but sit on the sidelines, and then those who disagree and see them as making the problem worse - probably the majority.

I think overall most people will go with the flow, some begrudgingly, others stoically, and others with zeal.

Just for reference, back in 2019, the Chinese released this report, saying:
Since 2014, Xinjiang has destroyed 1,588 violent and terrorist gangs, arrested 12,995 terrorists, seized 2,052 explosive devices, punished 30,645 people for 4,858 illegal religious activities, and confiscated 345,229 copies of illegal religious materials.

Is it the threat of camps?
Probably for some, though threat of punishment doesn't work on a subset of the population. Others, if they can get a passport, might try to get out of the country to go somewhere like Turkey, where they can join ETIM, ISIS, or whatever.
And how many ARE signed up to some separatist group (directly or indirectly), and why?
Don't know, but would like to.
Is it because of the camps?
Again, probably some.

A couple interesting accounts from a British ex-cop, and a Chinese-American, both of whom visited Xinjiang for tourism:
Another from Vice, which, while being Vice, shows some of the same details mentioned in the above but not shown in detail:
Some recent regulations on religion in general: Red Tape: China Wants to Constrict Christian Activities with 26 New Rules
 

Beau

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Another thought exercise (for Americans): the CCP has consistently funded, networked with, and even militarily-trained, an imaginary Muslim Black separatist movement in a part of the USA where large numbers of Muslim Blacks live - say, everywhere south of a line from Arkansas to North Carolina. They've already carried out dozens of terror attacks, both within these states and in some neighboring states. Assuming it even allows the situation to reach that point, how might the US federal government respond?
Point taken. I don't think there's ever been denial of the the existence of such a group in Xinjiang or the need for China to do something to deal with the empire's color revolution tactics. It seems like it's working, as attacks after 2016 in China dropped a great deal. Pretty great strategy to fix the problem of Western-funded terrorism, something that no other country thought to do.
 

hlat

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
If you don't want to be loyal, leave.
Are they capable of leaving? There are a lot of really poor people who can't leave. We can look at war refugees, and see how well that's going for people who try to leave.

Another thought exercise (for Americans)
It already happened in the US. It's called Japanese internment camps. Just because the US is a piece of crap for doing it, doesn't excuse China for doing it. Besides, no foreign power needs to fund it in the US because the deep state has already been on it with antifa, blm, and the lone gunmen shootings.

China isn't excluding the majority from abuse. Just this year alone they've forced anal tests on millions of Han. It's indefensible and there's no hiding it.

We're one year into a worldwide nightmare. Where is anyone going to go? We are all suffering under the governments around the world.
 

Pierre

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
It already happened in the US. It's called Japanese internment camps. Just because the US is a piece of crap for doing it, doesn't excuse China for doing it.
I think there's one important difference between Japanese interment camps in the US and "Uighur" camps in China. From what I know Japanese internees were not conducting illegal activities, they were put in camps solely based on their origin.
 
Last edited:

Pierre

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
There are a lot of really poor people who can't leave
From what I understand, really poor people are busy just surviving and don't engage in subversive activities against their host nation. It's a similar narrative that prevails in Europe today: migrants left their countries because of poverty. But, there's a fundamental paradox in this statement: if these migrants are so poor, how could they fund their trip overseas in the first place?
The demographics of the current migration wave to Europe illustrates the inconsistency of the above narrative. Most migrants are young males.
It's the population subset that is the most likely to earn a living abroad or at home, but also that is the most represented in organizations like ISIS.
 

Keit

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
I've been gradually listening to what Satanovsky (a Russian expert on the Eastern countries and an economist) has to say about China. For example, he thinks that Russia should follow the Chinese example, and institute even harsher terms in order to tackle the problem of corrupt officials.

Here are some notes that I took while listening.

During the 20th century China was very poor, and tens of millions people died and also tens of millions people were killed, including by the hands of the invaders.

During their history the land was divided and invaded a lot of times, but in the end China was able to take everything back. And that's a great lesson for Russia and others.

Approximately 43 years ago China initiated open economy reforms. And until then they were on the level of the 3rd World country.

Since then, and particularly 30 years ago when the Soviet Union was collapsing, instead China made a huge progress, while still retaining remrants of the Soviet-like system.

Basically 43 years ago they initiated a change and were deciding how much of Maoism they are going to retain. In comparison to Russia they initiated smart economic reforms along with the socialist ideology. He also mentioned that in comparison to Soviet Union and earlier Russian government, Chinese system was more adaptive to various changes. They also learned from their enemies.

They took a more practical approach than a pure idealist one, including managing the problem of corruption. And also in comparison to Russia, they were willing to admit mistakes if mistakes were done. But yes, in their case anti-corruption measures were more serious, and corrupt officials were either detained for life and in some case executed. And all their fortune was ceased. This remains to this day.

Satanovsky claims that if similar measures as a deterrent were done in Russia, our economic situation would be much better. He brought up an example of majore thefts that were done by officials during the building project of Vostochny Cosmodrome. And he isn't alone in thinking this way.

He says that due to the reforms while maintaining the tight management, including periodic testing of officials, China progressed significantly and has serious advances in comparison to Russia. Sure, the officials are continuing to steal there as well, but due to the potential harsh punishment, the situation is better than in Russia.

According to him, in certain situations and societies this can be the only working solution, especially when managing such a huge population.

In his talks he also mentions ancient China, and how they had leading technologies in comparison to others, and it allowed Chinese to venture to other areas. Essencially, while certain Empires and countries were rising and falling, China "was always present".

It appears that Chinese approach is "homebase" oriented. Meaning, they venture out, take from "the outside world" whatever they need, but their prime concern is development of their own country. Another element to this approach is keeping all the plans close to their chest and waiting for the right moment.

And when the moment comes, they move in, work hard, and make things done. He brought up example of China being involved in business and investments in Africa, Syria, and even Israel. Apparently US tried to threaten Israel and demanded to stop dealing with Chinese, but Israel ignored the request. He also mentioned that Putin was instrumental in establishing good relations with China.

As for Uyghurs, he talked about their radical elements participating in the Chechen war, and that it's logical and necessary on China's part to curb any such sentiments.

Some time ago I also listened to what Khazin (a Russian economist) had to say about a possible future for China. He said that due to the looming economic crisis in the West, China may potentially also have a problem. Since China's current economic prosperity is largely based on export, if such external ventures would either become non existent or significantly lower, it would deal a significant blow.

China did take steps to counteract such a possibility, and has been investing a lot of money in development of internal market. But time will tell if this kind of preparation was enough.
 

Joe

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
He says that due to the reforms while maintaining the tight management, including periodic testing of officials, China progressed significantly and has serious advances in comparison to Russia. Sure, the officials are continuing to steal there as well, but due to the potential harsh punishment, the situation is better than in Russia.

Yep, and that's what the "social credit" thing is really all about. It's not for citizens, but for corporations. Explained here.

 

Recto

Jedi
Basically 43 years ago they initiated a change and were deciding how much of Maoism they are going to retain. In comparison to Russia they initiated smart economic reforms along with the socialist ideology. He also mentioned that in comparison to Soviet Union and earlier Russian government, Chinese system was more adaptive to various changes. They also learned from their enemies.
In his talks he also mentions ancient China, and how they had leading technologies in comparison to others, and it allowed Chinese to venture to other areas. Essencially, while certain Empires and countries were rising and falling, China "was always present".

It appears that Chinese approach is "homebase" oriented. Meaning, they venture out, take from "the outside world" whatever they need, but their prime concern is development of their own country. Another element to this approach is keeping all the plans close to their chest and waiting for the right moment.

I recall listening to some political commentator, many moons ago, that stressed the importance of China's long term strategic mindset as an integral part of their history and culture. Implementing carefully, over many decades, pragmatic strategies in order to achieve their goals, as true heirs to Sun Tzu's Art of War principles. This long term vision in completely opposite to most (if not all) Western governmental modern policies, which is another dimension where China seems alien to us (besides the purely cultural aspect).
Approaching such serious undertaking/issues using warfare techniques gives them pretty good chance to overcome America's economic warfare (if it hasn't already) and more broadly it's global hegemony, IMO.

Some time ago I also listened to what Khazin (a Russian economist) had to say about a possible future for China. He said that due to the looming economic crisis in the West, China may potentially also have a problem. Since China's current economic prosperity is largely based on export, if such external ventures would either become non existent or significantly lower, it would deal a significant blow.

China did take steps to counteract such a possibility, and has been investing a lot of money in development of internal market. But time will tell if this kind of preparation was enough.

China is also holding a significant part of US debt which would be a catastrophy if the US defaults on its debt (it is very unlikely though). However, China slowly sold US bonds and bought gold over the last decade and will probably continue on this path in the future as it reduces the risk on their side. If things hit the fan it should be interesting to see whether or not all of China's efforts will allow them to keep their head above water. They seem to have picked up a good momentum lately, so we may be hopeful of that.
 

Anthony

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I haven't been following the situation in Xinjiang recently, but I do remember reading about it some time ago. In short, Xinjiang is one of the key nodes of China's Belt and Road Initiative. And since the West and their allies are known to exploit and weaponize various ethnic minorities in order to achieve their aims, it's no wonder they are doing the same when it comes to the Uyghurs.

Andrew Korybko writes:

Hybrid Wars can be defined as “externally provoked identity conflicts, which exploit historical, ethnic, religious, socio-economic, and geographic differences within geostrategic transit states through the phased transition from Color Revolutions to Unconventional Wars in order to disrupt, control, or influence multipolar transnational connective infrastructure projects by means of Regime Tweaking, Regime Change, and/or Regime Reboot.”

If that is one of the aims behind the 'gulags' propaganda, it will undoubtedly fail, though they might captivate the minds of some Westerners.
 

Corvus

Dagobah Resident
From what I understand, really poor people are busy just surviving and don't engage in subversive activities against their host nation. It's a similar narrative that prevails in Europe today: migrants left their countries because of poverty. But, there's a fundamental paradox in this statement: if these migrants are so poor, how could they fund their trip overseas in the first place?
There is a great deal of financing by the globalist NGO s just to mention, that finance their trip and other things. Heard it first hand from migrants that some get money in Turkey.
 

Approaching Infinity

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Yep, and that's what the "social credit" thing is really all about. It's not for citizens, but for corporations. Explained here.

Really good video. Daum's observation about the opacity being a feature not a bug was interesting - hadn't thought if of that way before. One aspect they didn't go into detail about is that the direction of the pilot programs was largely left up to the cities , so that could contribute to some of the more negative perceptions - different cities tried different things. This article provides a pretty good summary of how things started, and how the system is developing. Has a few extra details, some of which were touched on briefly in the video, e.g., the various disconnected parts of the system, and how it's not a unified panopticon like it's portrayed in the west. A couple excerpts:
China did not develop a unified credit information collection and classification management standard. Instead, each region and each government department built their own credit platforms. As a result, information sharing is very difficult. Various departments and local authorities have from time to time competed for dominance in the construction of the credit system, based on their interests, leading to further inconsistencies.
In December 2020, the government missed the deadline it set itself in 2014. However, it issued guidelines for further improvements. It highlights the importance of central legislation and lays the ground for a future national law on the social credit system. The government says that local authorities misapprehended the definition of “bad behavior”. Spitting in public and fare dodging should not be part of the credit score, for instance. Only illegal activities defined by law should be in this category, it said.
To the degree that citizens have a universal score, it's more of a financial credit score. This Chinese guy goes over his own score and shows how it works:


More from the article:
The systems of different cities are not yet integrated together. The information they collect, the evaluation mechanisms they set up and their applications rarely match. Suzhou residents can borrow books using their Osmanthus account, for instance, and citizens with a higher score can borrow more books. But most other local credit score systems do not share this feature.

Doubts linger regarding the actual usage of credit scoring apps. AlgorithmWatch asked several residents in Suzhou about the Osmanthus system. Out of five people who had heard about it, two had never used or checked their account. Suzhou officials claim that the system covers all of its 13 million inhabitants.
Pretty sure this is in reference to the "judgment default" category Daum was talking about:
According to the most recent statistic available, by the end of June 2019, courts nationwide had 27 million people on the blocklist restricting air travel and 6 million on the one restricting access to high-speed trains. 14 million of these were also on the list of “discredited individuals”. This represents about one in every hundred Chinese citizens.
Public opinion:
Public opinion is starting to shift. According to Xinhua, the state-owned news agency, 70% of people who took a survey initiated by multiple media outlets in July 2020 expressed concern about misuse of the social credit system.

However, many still say they agree with the system’s purpose. “Social scoring is not a bad thing”, a retired school principal in Shanxi province told AlgorithmWatch. “Nowadays we don’t know who we can trust, with the poisoned milk powder, and gutter oil used for cooking. I think it’s good that a system is in place to ensure a certain level of trust”, she added. “I am not worried. It won’t affect me and my family, it’s to punish the dishonest people who don’t pay their debts.”
 

Joe

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
For those who think their negative opinion of China is their own. Geopolitical = Uyghur Uyghur = Geopolitical.


China.JPG
 
Top Bottom