Gurdjieff's Ponerology

[Mikey]

I've recently read Gurdjieff's booklet The Herald of Coming Good. He wrote it after all his other writings but was published first. There, Gurdjieff says some things that almost seem that he was on the verge of discovering Ponerology. It's only a whiff, an allusion to it, but nevertheless there.

Generally, the booklet is worth reading, despite his sometimes impossibly nested sentence structure, and one notices strongly again what a cunning 'fox' Gurdjieff was. But here are the relevant parts to the 'beginnings' of his Ponerology -- abridged, highlighted and commented by me.

First he says that one man's inner benevolence can evoke a proportional "ill-will" in others, suggesting people of 'opposite polarity':

... taking into account the resulting situa­tion, namely, that there were almost no people left about me essential for my general experimental elucidations ... I had recourse—in order to have at my disposal once again of the necessary body of various types of people, i. e. to have, as is said, a "wide field for experiment"—to the following measure.

Having decided long beforehand to mortgage, upon the completion of my writings, my two European estates ... I set about the arranging of this mortgage not as any person more or less familiar with Parisian ways would have done, i. e. by simply entrusting the affair to the nearest lawyer, but, with the intention of forming such an experimental field, entrusted the affair rather to a whole series of special offices existing for this purpose, as well as to private "commission-agents" and "sub-commission­ agents". {G at his best! }

Thanks to this, what I think to be my last "extravaganza", and with a view to satisfying the same mania, I elucidated for my own benefit — besides convincing myself of the correctness of my strange verification, which absolutely contradicted men's usual conception, that the force and degree of man's inner benevolence evokes a proportionate degree of ''ill-will" in others, — a multitude of hitherto unsuspected and new, though slight, and yet very significant and explicative facts ...

Next, he loosely describes the statistical outcome of one psychological experiment undertaken by himself:

Of these psychic factors {the good ones, naturally arising in childhood by themselves and thanks to the guidance of wise tutors} the one that stands out most in relief, and which becomes at once easily obvious, is the factor that may be called "scruple-of-conscience" and which makes it impossible that its possessor act otherwise than frankly in relation to all those who show him full inner confidence, even if his so-called "waking-cons­ciousness" urge him to act in an opposite manner. {a strong echo of the concept of conscience in Lobaczewski's Ponerology}

Speaking of this factor, inherent in the human psy­che, which necessarily formed itself and was present in the whole period of the responsible life of our ancestors{strong echo of the inherited "psychological substrate of normal people" in Lobaczewski's Ponerology}, now long departed into Eternity, does not prevent my saying also and even emphasizing with an impulse of great offence that of the fifty people inhabiting the capital of the world {Paris} and serving me at that time—without, of course, their being conscious of it—as objects of my observations and elucidations, the functioning and manifestation of this peculiar psychic factor {i.e. conscience} proved among eleven of them to have been completely transformed into the factor called in ancient times "podispodny" that Is, degenera­tion, and one which has already gone so far that, on acci­dental or deliberate excitation of this factor, the manifes­tation of its action comes about in man by the accomplish­ment of a diametrically opposite act. I even assured myself of the existence in two of these eleven persons {i.e. 4% of the sample of 50, which is very close to Lobaczewski's 6% of essential psychopathy}, two brothers of juridical origin, marked signs of the beginning of that same evil "nothing", {"evil nothing" is an interesting term which I guess can be used in-place for Psychopathy} which was first noted in man's entirety by the Babylonian sages and physiochemists {!}, and called by them "poisne­kuer'', and which, according to the explanation of these sages, has the property of becoming transformed under certain well known conditions of environment into a source of contagion. {also a very strong echo of the contagiousness of psychopathy in Lobaczewski's Ponerology during times of collective hysteria}.

I have the intention, I may say, upon the final completion of work on all my writings, to make this "nothing" also, the object of my investigations and to try and find means for uprooting forever from people's lives this plague on humanity. {also quite curious that he calls it a "plague". Also a strong echo of Lobaczewski's "virus" analogy of psychopathy.}

Too bad he didn't have more time to make this described psychic element an object of his studies and write about it.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

I even assured myself of the existence in two of these eleven persons {i.e. 4% of the sample of 50, which is very close to Lobaczewski's 6% of essential psychopathy},

6% was actually the figure for all psychopathies and characteropathies combined. In Poland, Lobaczewski figured 0.6% as essential psychopaths. Martha Stout quotes a figure of 4% for sociopaths (i.e. antisocial personality disorder, not psychopathy per se).

Interesting that 22% had a 'degenerated' conscience. I think that number would be higher today!

 

[Mark]

Generally, the booklet is worth reading, despite his sometimes impossibly nested sentence structure

As a side note here: His writing style really makes it more challenging to pay attention to his various streams of thought. I wonder if he did that on purpose. I'd guess he did.

 

[Michael B-C]

Thank you Data. Very interesting. As you said, it is a shame he did not appear to follow up on this breakthrough of understanding. I am intrigued by his use of the word 'podispodny' which pre-empts 'ponerology' with identical first and last letters and identical length. I wonder if in his obtuse way he was hinting at what was to come from Lobaczewski!

which was first noted in man's entirety by the Babylonian sages and physiochemists, and called by them "poisne­kuer'', and which, according to the explanation of these sages, has the property of becoming transformed under certain well known conditions of environment into a source of contagion

Fascinating! I can find no other online cross-reference for this, especially the playful but precise name "poisne­kuer''. Extraordinary to think that scientific knowledge of this contagion was perhaps known so many thousands of years ago and here we stand on the brink of the abyss that they have made for us in this age. One wonders what happened to those 'physiochemists' (great way of describing certain members of this forum!) should they have attempted to spread such knowledge. Washed away by cyclical collapse and catastrophe I suspect. But perhaps some traces left behind in the wisdom of the stars for telling eyes to spot... Food for thought.


mod: quote box fixed

 

[H-KQGE]

Thanks for starting this thread & your commentary Data.

Generally, the booklet is worth reading, despite his sometimes impossibly nested sentence structure

As a side note here: His writing style really makes it more challenging to pay attention to his various streams of thought. I wonder if he did that on purpose. I'd guess he did.

Yeah, another example of the need for a network right there. The word choice must absolutely bamboozle other esoteric researchers. This line: "that the force and degree of man's inner benevolence evokes a proportionate degree of ''ill-will" in others" I found powerful. It reminds me of my first foray into these topics & my strong feelings that there were powerful messages being conveyed in a way that I wasn't able to comprehend by myself.

I agree with the "scruple-of-consciousness" part, echoes of conscience in ponerology. The (instinctive) "substrate" line just shows how far along in The Work he was. I read "Evil nothing" as a black hole on earth which is already active, thus the word evil carrying more weight since in this era, it's nothing more than an ancient idea. I love the words "poisnekeur" & "physiochemist", very good. I agree with the rest that Data highlighted too (would've needed to consult P.P to make sure) & it is a shame that he couldn't continue.

G really was an extraordinary man & so far ahead of his time as has been mentioned numerous times. To be able to develop himself in the era that he did & go through what to me, seems like an incredibly frustrating period with his students, (being unable to grok the teachings) he must've had REAL discipline. One has to wonder what could've been if he had been able to make headway into psychopathy/ponerology proper. Could we have offset events of the past 15 years into a different reality that TPTB would've "showed their hand" more forcefully & obviously - leading more people to discover, learn & unite more quickly? Btw, is "podispodny" the literal or closest translation to degeneration?

 

[kinyash]

Great Thread Data. It's also really interesting to note how G turned his everyday experiences into "experiments". He was a true proponent of the Work at all times using every opportunity to better understand the human condition with the aim of freeing (wo)man from his grief. In one of his other works (Life is Real only when I am), he also hints at a source of knowledge far away in the stars, (this was covered in one of the earliest podcasts by Laura), which hinted at his having knowledge of the Cassiopaeans but he never actually got round to pursuing this further.

G's strength was that he had already done enough work on himself and therefore he was able to be truly objective with his experiments.

 

[Keyhole]

Generally, the booklet is worth reading, despite his sometimes impossibly nested sentence structure

As a side note here: His writing style really makes it more challenging to pay attention to his various streams of thought. I wonder if he did that on purpose. I'd guess he did.

Yep, while reading Life is real only then, when 'I Am' my impression was that the sentences were intentionally structured in such a way that made it extremely difficult for the reader to comprehend. I recall reading somewhere, perhaps in Struggle of the Magicians that this was G's self proclaimed intention, in order to make it almost incomprehensible to the 'average reader' and to prevent the contained information getting into "ordinary hands'. Sometimes when reading G's writings it may take me 20 minutes to complete one sentence and attempt to make any sense out of it :P

Next, he loosely describes the statistical outcome of one psychological experiment undertaken by himself:

Of these psychic factors {the good ones, naturally arising in childhood by themselves and thanks to the guidance of wise tutors} the one that stands out most in relief, and which becomes at once easily obvious, is the factor that may be called "scruple-of-conscience" and which makes it impossible that its possessor act otherwise than frankly in relation to all those who show him full inner confidence, even if his so-called "waking-cons­ciousness" urge him to act in an opposite manner. {a strong echo of the concept of conscience in Lobaczewski's Ponerology}

Speaking of this factor, inherent in the human psy­che, which necessarily formed itself and was present in the whole period of the responsible life of our ancestors{strong echo of the inherited "psychological substrate of normal people" in Lobaczewski's Ponerology}, now long departed into Eternity, does not prevent my saying also and even emphasizing with an impulse of great offence that of the fifty people inhabiting the capital of the world {Paris} and serving me at that time—without, of course, their being conscious of it—as objects of my observations and elucidations, the functioning and manifestation of this peculiar psychic factor {i.e. conscience} proved among eleven of them to have been completely transformed into the factor called in ancient times "podispodny" that Is, degenera­tion, and one which has already gone so far that, on acci­dental or deliberate excitation of this factor, the manifes­tation of its action comes about in man by the accomplish­ment of a diametrically opposite act. I even assured myself of the existence in two of these eleven persons {i.e. 4% of the sample of 50, which is very close to Lobaczewski's 6% of essential psychopathy}, two brothers of juridical origin, marked signs of the beginning of that same evil "nothing", {"evil nothing" is an interesting term which I guess can be used in-place for Psychopathy} which was first noted in man's entirety by the Babylonian sages and physiochemists {!}, and called by them "poisne­kuer'', and which, according to the explanation of these sages, has the property of becoming transformed under certain well known conditions of environment into a source of contagion. {also a very strong echo of the contagiousness of psychopathy in Lobaczewski's Ponerology during times of collective hysteria}.

I have the intention, I may say, upon the final completion of work on all my writings, to make this "nothing" also, the object of my investigations and to try and find means for uprooting forever from people's lives this plague on humanity. {also quite curious that he calls it a "plague". Also a strong echo of Lobaczewski's "virus" analogy of psychopathy.}

Too bad he didn't have more time to make this described psychic element an object of his studies and write about it.

Well, he was certainly onto something with this. As we can all see today with works like ponerology being later published etc. What i find truly fascinating is the fact that G came to these conclusions mainly from his own observations and this information was probably not widely available as it is today. One wonders how much information he could have gathered on ponerology had this been part of his Aim.

 

[Ollie]

Generally, the booklet is worth reading, despite his sometimes impossibly nested sentence structure

As a side note here: His writing style really makes it more challenging to pay attention to his various streams of thought. I wonder if he did that on purpose. I'd guess he did.

Yep, while reading Life is real only then, when 'I Am' my impression was that the sentences were intentionally structured in such a way ...

This is a well-known technique in hypnosis, often using a multi-level of nesting for unconsciously taking in - waiting for the completion of the first nest, etc, designed to get the subject to pay close attention to what is at the heart of the nested sentence.

(a crude example)

 

[SeekinTruth]

Great thread. Thanks for starting it, Data. I read The Herald of the Coming Good around 2008. It's actually quite short and packed with dense info. It was a good refresher reading those extracts. G talks about psychopathy-like traits in Beelzebub's Tales too, and really seems to be pointing to psychopathy proper in Life is Real. Like he was onto something and wanted to study it more. But alas, he never finished the final chapter(s) of Life is Real. And it seems he never got around to further study and experimentation after writing The Herald of the Coming Good to further flesh out his discoveries about psychopathy.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

But alas, he never finished the final chapter(s) of Life is Real. And it seems he never got around to further study and experimentation after writing The Herald of the Coming Good to further flesh out his discoveries about psychopathy.

I think these are assumptions. The 'cliffhanger' ending to LIR was perhaps deliberate, and he had another 16 years left in him when he published Herald. So, plenty of time to continue his 'experiments'. He just didn't necessarily get around to writing about it in the manner he did in Herald. Or if he did, he may have included whatever he learned in Tales, which he revised until soon before his death. But if that's the case, it's probably obscured beyond all recognition.