Hawaï... but where are Hawaïian ?

Elohir

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
Hello,

A the end of January, my wife, 2 good friends and I went to visit Hawaï. I was not so excited but I didn't know why i felt this way.
Then we arrived at Ohau wich Honolulu is the capital before leaving for Maui. Belive me or not, the islands of Hawaï are like their soul had disapeared...

I wanted to write my point of view about this kind of paradise as it's generally described and how people use to describe it.

Of course, the 4 of us were very pleased by the beautiful nature (almost) everywhere, mountains, volcanos, tropical forests, ocean, rivers, waterfalls, whales... don't get me wrong, we were lucky to go there and experiment this travel but it missed something really important : authenticity.

We stayed 3 days at Honolulu and 10 days at Maui. It was enough to see that it's quite difficult to meet polynesian people wose families have been living here for centuries. Our main question was "what's happened here ?", it reminded us the native american and their disapearance from american territory.

In both islands, don't look for traditionnal things like local restaurants with local foods, fish markets, traditional markets, it feels like the american machine has been there for enough time to change the islands. And about the population I understand now our surprise. In fact it's said on Wikipedia that only 6% of the population is Native Hawaiians (before James cook's arrival in 1778). It's complex to check these figures since you can make numbers or statistics mean whatever you want it to mean. The official number for hawaïian/part hawaïian (metis) people is 24,9%.

What I can afirm for sure is that we were very surprised to meet so few hawaïian type people. But that is not all. Everything is new and modern in these islands and it's totally american, the resorts, the big houses, the golf playgrounds, the towns, the freeways and the fast foods and malls everywhere...

By the way, it can be hard to find a restaurant without hamburgers, nuggets, tacos and ceaser salad... Quite impossible to eat fresh fish in a little restaurant near the sea.

About history and culture, hummm, let's say it's not the preocupation overthere. If you go there, don't ask yourself too many questions about what used to be these beautifull islands.

Yeah, as you can see we were very sad to see this scene. In fact, when we travel somewhere we like to feel the history, culture, meet and talk with people, learn from them and overthere, well, you got my point.
We were told that Hawaï is mainly for rich people from mainland and that it's like a good place to retreat after retirement of for a few weeks during holidays for people who can afford it.

After some researches it appears that the state of Hawaï is not a state by the international law. In fact, after many years of international presence (English, Russian, french), USA decided to replace the last queen in 1893 by a temporary government (still the same method nowadays, isn't it ?). Then in 1959, a vote made the republic of Hawaï the last state of USA. Problem is that Hawaïian never officialy gave up their sovereignty since it was a "coup d'etat". In 2008, when Obama was elected, some of his opponents claimed that he couldn't become the president because the place he was born was not a true state by law.

Anyway, we could see by our own eyes the result of the american machine and the ability for humans to forget even if it hasn't been a while since these ilsnads became american.

As Robert Brasillach said "L'histoire est écrite par les vainqueurs" (1967) (History is written by the winners).
it also reminds me that when I was young I was convinced that the indians were the bad guys... Have you ever been to a disneyland resort and watched the buffalo show ? Cowboys are still heroes and indians are still savages even if it's true they try to explain us more and more that it's more... humm complicated lol

Thanks for the reading.
 

BHelmet

Jedi Council Member
No there is not a lot of aloha in Honolulu or large parts of Maui either anymore, especially for tourists. That does not mean there is no aloha in Hawaii or that it's soul has died.

But if you think about it, you kind of answered your own question. If you go to the big high rise tourist parts of Hawaii, you won't encounter many real Hawaiians except perhaps as food service employees, maids, guides or entertainers. I lived in Hawaii for 10 years. You have to get away from the tourist scene to encounter any real Hawaiiana except perhaps through music. That said, the usual story of subjugation applied. Hawaiian history is very sad. The Hawaiians had their country stolen, then population decimated by the usual imported diseases, and then diluted by imported labor to work the sugar cane; their culture destroyed and on and on. Hence, many are quite surly about all this. It didn't happen that long ago. There is an undercurrent of antagonism.

You have to live there for years to really 'get it' and understand it and be accepted to a certain degree. You have to learn to be at peace and remain balanced while staring into the occasional vehement stink eye - and you better have just the right look in your eye or it can get ugly in a hurry. This takes time and finesse, humility and understanding ...real knowledge, if you will. It is one of those places you HAVE to learn how to BE in order to survive. It is hard to put into words. But this sounds slanted - there are many, many loving, beautiful individuals and it is easy enough to steer clear or real trouble.

I lived on the east side of the Big Island which is kind of the poor folks Hawaii. It is VERY ethnically diverse. Even so, it is only about 10 pct Hawaiian. (12% Japanese, 11% Philippino, 10% Chinese and Korean, 9% Portuguese, 5% Caucasian and some Micronesians, Polynesians, Hispanic, etc etc and etc AND about 1/3 are a mixture of various races. ) The real Hawaiians tend to be in rural, economically challenged places. A normal tourist won't find them and if he did he might not feel very welcome or secure.

The bottom line is that your experience is normal. Tourists generally won't connect with the real Hawaii - it is best to just appreciate the beauty and relaxed atmosphere (away from Honolulu) and quirky cultural mish-mosh, have a mai-tai and leave it at that. But hey, listen to a good slack-key album ... you can hear the poignant melancholy sadness and longing of the Hawaiian people and connect that way. (heh heh, or go to the big island and try walking on an old lava flow in bare feet :)

(Moses Kahumoku, George Kahumoku, Leonard Kwan, Cyril Pahinui - there are a bunch of them - Leonard Kwan who is an old dude for sure brings me to the edge of tears almost every time)

Here is the bottom line deal about Hawaii - everybody came from somewhere else - even the Hawaiians - what is required is to connect with the place itself - it IS still alive - there are places where the qi is totally out of control and there is no cell signal! What feelings! Oh yeah, and then there are all the spirits...that is another story - you just have to fine tune your antennae.
 

luc

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Thanks Elohir for sharing your experiences, and BHelmet for your interesting take on Hawaii based on your experience.

I've never been to Hawaii, but I recognize your feeling Elohir, I felt the same way in the past when visiting foreign countries as a tourist. I still feel this craving for authenticity, for the "real", and I sometimes have romantic thoughts about "living the simple life", like people of past generations, in a beautiful place... Finding a culture that is healthy and "real". But then, reality strikes back - I mean, there is hardly a place in the world that hasn't been affected, corrupted, sucked dry and spiritually degraded by so-called civilization, spear-headed by the British and now American empire. Globalism brought this destruction to a whole new level - the world-wide "shock doctrine". And even what's left of so-called "primitive" cultures, that's hardly something I could live in. All the romanticism and nostalgia aside - would I really want to just chop wood or do farming or whatever the whole day long? No, I would still want to participate here, read, better understand the real world etc., and not just shutting out. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide!

And then it strikes me that I have to accept reality, and that I have to do my best everyday exactly where I am to change this situation where it's in my powers to do so. This world is truly lost - but I can do my best to learn something from it, apply my knowledge, use the shocks and negative energy to transform it into something positive, and make a statement to the universe that even though this world is lost, I'm trying my best, and I don't loose hope that something better is possible. Or so I think.
 

Elohir

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
BHelmet said:
No there is not a lot of aloha in Honolulu or large parts of Maui either anymore, especially for tourists. That does not mean there is no aloha in Hawaii or that it's soul has died.

But if you think about it, you kind of answered your own question. If you go to the big high rise tourist parts of Hawaii, you won't encounter many real Hawaiians except perhaps as food service employees, maids, guides or entertainers.

I completely agree with you but I also explained and said that I didn't know about the rest of the archipel. Of course my experience concerns a small part of it. Nevertheless, this is why I took a look to the history of Hawaï, to see and check if it was a general fact there. With more money I would have loved to visit Big Island and more but I forgot to explain something important, we were invited at Maui. we are living in Asia and my friend knows a man who is like family to him and owns a house in Maui. he nicely invited us to visit him.

BHelmet said:
I lived in Hawaii for 10 years. You have to get away from the tourist scene to encounter any real Hawaiiana except perhaps through music. That said, the usual story of subjugation applied. Hawaiian history is very sad. The Hawaiians had their country stolen, then population decimated by the usual imported diseases, and then diluted by imported labor to work the sugar cane; their culture destroyed and on and on. Hence, many are quite surly about all this. It didn't happen that long ago. There is an undercurrent of antagonism.

You have to live there for years to really 'get it' and understand it and be accepted to a certain degree. You have to learn to be at peace and remain balanced while staring into the occasional vehement stink eye - and you better have just the right look in your eye or it can get ugly in a hurry. This takes time and finesse, humility and understanding ...real knowledge, if you will. It is one of those places you HAVE to learn how to BE in order to survive. It is hard to put into words. But this sounds slanted - there are many, many loving, beautiful individuals and it is easy enough to steer clear or real trouble.

I can understand what you feel and what you want to transmit. We could feel something like that, this is why I wanted to write something about it. It affected all of us because this kind of energy you can feel it at a certain level. I might have hurt you saying there was no soul overthere and I am sorry for that.
But when I read at your comments I can see that there's still something in Hawaï and that some people overthere continue to maintain their culture alive. I'm very glad to "hear" that.

BHelmet said:
A normal tourist won't find them and if he did he might not feel very welcome or secure.
The bottom line is that your experience is normal. Tourists generally won't connect with the real Hawaii - it is best to just appreciate the beauty and relaxed atmosphere (away from Honolulu) and quirky cultural mish-mosh, have a mai-tai and leave it at that.
Honestly, as I said the nature was a wonderfull show but it's also hard to just focus on that forgeting our feelings about what has happend the last decades and what this place and its people became. Anyway, be sure that I won't forget the beauty of these islands.

BHelmet said:
Here is the bottom line deal about Hawaii - everybody came from somewhere else - even the Hawaiians - what is required is to connect with the place itself - it IS still alive - there are places where the qi is totally out of control and there is no cell signal! What feelings! Oh yeah, and then there are all the spirits...that is another story - you just have to fine tune your antennae.

About the spirit, we could feel interesting things at the end of the road to Hana, in the Bamboo forest wich brings us to a very nice waterfall. So yes, I understand what you tried to explain here.
I thank you very much for your answer and to have shared your experience as someone who really lived there for enough time to know the place.
I will listen to the music you gave us as examples.

While I was looking for informations about Hawaï and its history I saw that Elizabeth Sinclair purchased Niʻihau in 1864 from the Kingdom of Hawaii and private ownership passed on to her descendants, the Robinson family. I saw that it exists a 2 parts video about it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA0fB-9odwk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kHqZ-KrhnQ

What do you think about this private island and do you think that This family has really protected Ni'ihau ?

luc said:
And then it strikes me that I have to accept reality, and that I have to do my best everyday exactly where I am to change this situation where it's in my powers to do so. This world is truly lost - but I can do my best to learn something from it, apply my knowledge, use the shocks and negative energy to transform it into something positive, and make a statement to the universe that even though this world is lost, I'm trying my best, and I don't loose hope that something better is possible. Or so I think.

This is exactly what I feel. The world as we know it is damned but not for eternity. Changes are coming and this is necessary. For now we have to live with that doing our best to learn what we have to learn and sharing positive energy with others and nature. In others words we have to go on ith our work and get ready for what's coming next.

Thank you too Luc for your answer.
 

BHelmet

Jedi Council Member
Elohir said:
I can understand what you feel and what you want to transmit. We could feel something like that, this is why I wanted to write something about it. It affected all of us because this kind of energy you can feel it at a certain level. I might have hurt you saying there was no soul overthere and I am sorry for that.
But when I read at your comments I can see that there's still something in Hawaï and that some people over there continue to maintain their culture alive. I'm very glad to "hear" that.
Hi Elohir - I am not hurt at all. Just engaging in a local aspect of the current culture: "Talk Story". And thanks for bringing up Hawaii - it made me pause and reflect on my time living there.

I was also trying to say that living in the place itself is what makes you Hawaiian, although the locals would be outraged and say you have to be born there and have Hawaiian blood, etc (Haole boy!). The Hawaii state motto is in Native Hawaiian and means in English "The life of the land is perpetuated in righteousness"

This is an interesting big concept. It correlates the right action with the health of the land. Like a cycle of the life force in the earth which is connected to human life. (and why the earth is 'sick' in so many ways due to unrighteous actions of actors like Monsanto, the US govt and why it is looking like we will get this cleansing upheaval of the earth - paying for sins, so to speak, or reaping karma) (it also agrees with several 4th way concepts like the ray of creation).

Anyway, there is a still a lot of Hawaiian culture under the surface that is not apparent. Some people guard it and hide it and some people share it. Some Hawaiians are consumed by resentment and bitterness and have lost the aloha while others are just so full of real love. The bitter ones kind of act like they are the only people that has gotten a bad deal; sort of like some Jewish people think they have a monopoly on holocaust and suffering genocide.

Hawaiian culture is kind of blurred. There is a modern culture that incorporates a lot of the Hawaiian culture and 'real' Hawaiian culture too...kind of like the ideas of exoteric and mesoteric and exoteric layers that Mouravieff talks about regarding Christianity.

Another aspect: Hawaiian culture, as it is now, is pretty goofy since it also combines asian influences and many other odd influences - it is a real culture. It comes a lot from the bottom up - grass roots.This is a good thing unlike 'our' mainland culture which is so much more influenced from the 'top down' via media programming.

As for Ni'ihau - yeah - seems all good to me.

Thank you for posting and being interested. Say, brah, where are you from? The discussion of 'culture' is fascinating.

and lastly... Alooooooooooha!
 

Elohir

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
Hi BHelmet,

Thank you again for your concern about this topic and especially about your sharing your experience. I really appreciate the way you see things, it made me think again about the land righteousness.

I Came back to my 1rst feeling arriving there and what was the difference between Hawaï and others islands as Tenerife, Madeira or Cretia where i went years ago and where people were also conquered and replaced/mixed with others culture. It's very obvious in Canary Islands. Nethertheless, it's something different... these places look like the authenticity, the harmony were at a better level. In fact, most of lands all around the world saw population replacement, wars, migrations but finally, as you said and as I agree with,
This is an interesting big concept. It correlates the right action with the health of the land. Like a cycle of the life force in the earth which is connected to human life.

and finally,
Here is the bottom line deal about Hawaii - everybody came from somewhere else - even the Hawaiians - what is required is to connect with the place itself
.

I think this last point is a good point of view. Of course, it doesn't justify invasions, wars, etc... and it is pretty hard to tell that to native americans and polynesians because of their history but it also reminds us one universal concept : being in harmony wherever you go and becoming connected with the place you presently are. At the end, we know that we are the same thing, we are all connected to eah others but also with all things that do exist. Time, distance, differences in the expression of material ? illusion....
This is why some of us who can understand and agree with this concept, can feel bad in places where harmony has been broken.

By the way, I'm french and I currently live in Seoul, South Korea ;D
 

Deckard

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Thank you for the report Elohir, it confirms my impression of Hawaii ( from a distance ) as a place devoid of soul. Nature looks stunning surely but I was never tempted to visit these island just because of this bad vibe I get from the place.
 

BHelmet

Jedi Council Member
Z said:
Thank you for the report Elohir, it confirms my impression of Hawaii ( from a distance ) as a place devoid of soul. Nature looks stunning surely but I was never tempted to visit these island just because of this bad vibe I get from the place.

Hawaii is a place where the soul gets "tested" quite a bit - yes that much is very true. Hawaii is seductive and yet confrontational. Ultimately, the confrontation is with yourself and that, I think, is a major key to Hawaii. (My experience is that the mainland USA is a place more "devoid of soul".)

The deal with nature is not just how it looks - it is the energy of the earth expressing itself. Nature has the upper hand in Hawaii. It is not fragile; it is 'in your face'. That is a fact of life there. The beauty is deceptive at times and in certain places you have to be on your toes and learn how to interact with it as it is not benign, tame or indifferent. Death, and loneliness are lurking in the beauty, sure enough.

I grew up in San Diego, and like a lot of cities, the natural flora gets scraped away, paved over, and then non-native species get replanted in a kind of superficial way. In most American cities nature is held at bay sort of in a semi-coma. Domesticated, if you will. You can easily walk around on the sidewalk in a sort of unconscious sameness.

Yes, there is danger in Hawaii. You are in the middle of the deep ocean. You could be standing on a 20 foot lava cliff and a 30 foot rogue wave could sweep you away permanently. Sadly, it happens. I almost lost 2 of my kids there. But you learn. You gain knowledge and the edginess brings with it a feeling of aliveness. Karma manifests very quickly. Lessons abound. It is a crash course. You just can't avoid your self there. (and there are beautiful enlightened beings, complete idiots and morons and everything in between).

Here is another idea. There is a branch of astrology, kind of like feng shui, where different places trigger different types of experiences and feelings depending on your horoscope. A person could have an intuitive sense that Hawaii would be a negative place. That could be very true. Personally, I had a negative, fearful pre-disposition to the orient. But I must say, when I went there, my actual experience was wonderful and enriching. I realized my pre-conceptions were off base. But also, in confronting various personal issues in these seemingly negative places, I learned WHY I had certain preconceived notions: I had an intuitive sense based on lessons I was reluctant to confront!

Somebody once wrote: East is east and west is west and ne'er the twain shall meet. (Kipling?) Well, if you stop and think about it, Hawaii IS where east and west meet in so many ways. If you hang out there long enough that can be pretty destabilizing. On the other hand, I think it was good preparation for the wave/intersection of 4d/3d process.

Lastly, how could anywhere that there are a bunch of people be devoid of soul? I was a travel agent a very long time and got to go a lot of different places. I don't think there was anywhere I would call devoid of soul. (except perhaps Washington DC?)(half joking)

Z, I don't mean to be picking on you and I hope I have not offended you. If so, please forgive me. I just mean to 'set the record straight' from my own experiences and observations and hopefully share some useful insights.
 

Deckard

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
BHelmet said:
Z, I don't mean to be picking on you and I hope I have not offended you. If so, please forgive me. I just mean to 'set the record straight' from my own experiences and observations and hopefully share some useful insights.

I didn't at all perceive it as "picking on me" :) - you shared your experience, which is certainly more valid since you have actually been there. I just shared my personal impression which like all personal impressions, has very little value.

I do have tendency to dismiss places, people whatever on a blink impression, or vibe I get. Sometimes this "sense" proves to be correct and sometimes it doesn't.

Judging a place as "devoid of soul" is certainly very harsh and perhaps not the best choice of words to describe the feeling. But indeed it is my impression Hawaii lost a lot of its "soul" when Americana took over.
 

Gawan

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
luminouspaste said:
That is the very same thing that I noticed when I visited Hawaii.

:welcome: to our forum luminouspaste, seeing as this is your first post on the forum, we would appreciate it if you would post a brief intro about yourself in the Newbies section, telling us how you found this forum, how long you've been reading it and/or the SOTT page, whether or not you've read any of Laura's books yet, etc.
 
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