Hitler and Gurdjieff

[Ryan]

[Moved this discussion to a more appropriate thread.]

I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but a guy I know called Colin Brown told me Hitler was in a Fourth Way group in Berlin run by a guy called Karl Haushofer who went to Tibet with Gurdjieff.

I don't know if this is true. If you want to ask Colin Brown about it, he is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FederationforIndependentStudy/?yguid=109193404

He rarely posts these days though.

There is some unverifiable stuff about Karl Haushofer here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Haushofer

I'm curious as to what your post has to do with the subject of OPs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Haushofer

From that Wikipedia entry:

It is also believed that he [Haushofer] belonged to the esoteric circle of George Gurdjieff. However the author, Lewis Pauwels of the book "Monsieur Gurdjieff" where this "fact" originates, later recanted many things from his book.

Sounds like someone making up "controversial material" to help sell a book. More rumours and innuendoes.

If you're interested in this subject, why don't you go and ask Colin?

That's why I provided you with the link.

The story about Hitler being in a Fourth Way group originates from George Cornelius one of Gurdjieff's students, he was also Colin's teacher.

 

[jake tassell]

Hitler and Mysticism

Oh well, it seems like I'm talking to myself...

Ooh it's cold in here!

Anyway, to the best that I can recall... in 1998, or thereabouts, a conversation came up on an E-group run by a guy from Oregon called Alan about Hitler and The Fourth Way.

Various people in the group suggested that aspects of 'The Hitler thing' were kind of bombastic distortions of Fourth Way teachings.

It was remarked upon that "Arbeit Macht Frei" and "The Triumph of The Will" could almost be Fourth Way cliches. Somebody also said that 'the many suffering for the few' was also a kind of mirroring of Fourth Way teachings. Another person went on to suggest that the 'Sieg Heil' salute was a rip from one of the Gurdjieff movements - representing Kali.

This conversation caused absolute uproar and pandemonium on this Forum. The subscribers were mainly mystical middle-aged American 4th Way, Buddhist, New Age ex-hippy types - and they really didn't want to know about this.

Then Colin Brown told the story that George Cornelius had told him about Hitler having been in a Fourth Way group in Berlin (I think it was at the same time that Gurdjieff was in Berlin - but I'm not sure), and how it was in some way related to Gurdjieff having completely 'disappeared' for a year.

Colin then went on to say that he himself didn't believe this story when George told him it, so he went to Berlin and investigated the story for six months 'til he found out that it was true.

Now what he found out in Berlin - I don't know. And whether the story is true or not, again I don't know, but it strikes me that every time this subject has been raised on various forums, Fourth Way and other, there is an immediate reaction for expediancies sake to cut the story off and shut it down - much like yours, Ryan.

 

[Guest]

Hitler and Mysticism

I was once approached by some umpteenth removed desciple of a "fourth way" school trying to tell my I had to submit to the "Great Guru" who allegedly was some original school founder. I told him to buzz off and did not ask for details. The point is that even if someone was Gurdjieff's close buddy at some point does not take away that humans are corruptible.

Hitler and the Nazi's were involved around a lot of esoterica at least in form if not in essence. The point is, it was all psychopathic. There are a lot of esoteric teachings whose purity stops after the original teacher, whereupon corruption begins. In fact, what teaching has not been corrupted? Psychopaths love these teachings because they can play with them and play with people using them. If what the above post says is true, it only represents another case among many where pathocrats played prophet and sage.

 

[anart]

Hitler and Mysticism

Yes, Hitler and his 'crew' were very interested in 'occult' and esoteric information to gain POWER OVER people - not to build power from within, through knowledge. They spent a lot of time and resources digging up whatever they could to use over and against others. In reference to another thread in 'Diet and Health', Hitler was also a user of a monatomic gold like substance, according to the C's. Judging from his behavior, and comments from the C's, he apparently had a 'hotline hitlerphone' to 4D STS forces as well.

 

[Ryan]

Hitler and Mysticism

Oh well, it seems like I'm talking to myself...

Ooh it's cold in here!

Not getting the attention you desire? Read Laura's message - there have been server issues and the forum was down for a few hours.

but it strikes me that every time this subject has been raised on various forums, Fourth Way and other, there is an immediate reaction for expediancies sake to cut the story off and shut it down - much like yours, Ryan.

I moved your off-topic comments to another thread so we could explore the topic fully as a separate issue. How is that "shutting down" the story? It seems to me that it bothers you that you weren't able to post your comments where you wanted them to be posted.... I wonder why?

 

[jake tassell]

Hitler and Mysticism

Not getting the attention you desire?

That remark is quite frankly, psychopathic.

Read Laura's message - there have been server issues and the forum was down for a few hours.

Yes, I'm aware of this, but the server was down yesterday morning. You moving this topic to the Conspiracy Theory section, with absolutely no comment on the substance of the post, occured the night before, didn't it?

I wonder why you chose the heading. It's something of a misnomer.

Shouldn't it be: Hitler and The Fourth Way? Or Hitler and Gurdjieff?

I mean, that's the subject, and that's why you moved it, right?

I moved your off-topic comments to another thread so we could explore the topic fully as a separate issue.

So where is your exploration?

Isn't it closer to the truth that you're simply ill-equipt to deal with this story and will comment on any aspect of my post, my imagined motives for posting it, or any other subject in order to distract attention from the substance of the post itself?

Isn't it closer to the truth that your thought processes are so banged out with other peoples cliches that your cognitive faculties are compromised to the extent you've been forced to abandon critical thinking and cling to a fearful cynicism that's visible even to a blind bat?

How is that "shutting down" the story? It seems to me that it bothers you that you weren't able to post your comments where you wanted them to be posted.... I wonder why?

You wonder why. Oh, I get it, you want this story to go away so much you're prepared to insinuate that I'm on 4D STS remote from a far-flung part of the multiverse. Charming.

I am astounded that an organisation like The Signs Team has no interest in checking this story out.

I've told you what I know. I've given Colin's web address. I can do no more.

 

[Guest]

Hitler and Mysticism

Isn't it closer to the truth that you're simply ill-equipt to deal with this story and will comment on any aspect of my post, my imagined motives for posting it, or any other subject in order to distract attention from the substance of the post itself?

The subject of the post is "Hitler and the 4th Way", which is a sub-category of Hitler and Mysticism. The extended title would allow someone to post a comment making connections between Hitler's treatment of the 4th Way material and other occult and esoteric directions Hitler adopted. It can allow for a greater picture and understanding, so we can perhaps get a glimps of the forest besides a few trees. I see nothing wrong with this.

As for moving the topic, if it was me I would be happy to be given my own space to expound on the theme further than what the "Mein Kampf" thread allowed. That thread was about OP's, and the originator stated himself that the Hitler quote was simply an example, and he did not intend to focus so much attention on just that aspect. If you read that thread, jake, you will see that a discussion of Hitler's 4th Way associations would have made it quite confusing.

Contrary to being put in "exile" starting a new thread is an affirmation that the idea supporting it can stand on its own. There are a lot of threads that have little or no response to them, and I don't see anyone complaining there.

Sounds like someone making up "controversial material" to help sell a book. More rumours and innuendoes.

Ryan simply expressed an opinion here, without being accomodating to anyone's ego. He disagreed that this topic has substance, and at the same time gave it its own space and the benefit of the doubt.

Personally, I think we all know that Hitler was involved in a lot of occult directions. He was also born a Catholic and friendly with the Pope. Does the fact that he was associated with 4th Way material invalidate the 4th Way? Does the possibility that some of Gurdjieff' students may have been Nazi's make Gurdjieff a Nazi?

I think this is an interesting topic, but I would like to know if there are any stated implications here. In other words, so Hitler was associated with 4th Way teachers. So what? What's the significance of this? If this thread is to get moving, let's get it moving and get beyond the counter-productive finger-pointing stage.

 

[Laura]

Hitler and Mysticism

I wonder why you chose the heading. It's something of a misnomer. Shouldn't it be: Hitler and The Fourth Way? Or Hitler and Gurdjieff? I mean, that's the subject, and that's why you moved it, right?

Actually, I would like to have some direct, sourced, quotes on this before the subject goes any further. You have made some claims, I would like to see them backed up.

 

[Laura]

Hitler and Mysticism

Then Colin Brown told the story that George Cornelius had told him about Hitler having been in a Fourth Way group in Berlin (I think it was at the same time that Gurdjieff was in Berlin - but I'm not sure), and how it was in some way related to Gurdjieff having completely 'disappeared' for a year.

Colin then went on to say that he himself didn't believe this story when George told him it, so he went to Berlin and investigated the story for six months 'til he found out that it was true.

Now what he found out in Berlin - I don't know. And whether the story is true or not, again I don't know, but it strikes me that every time this subject has been raised on various forums, Fourth Way and other, there is an immediate reaction for expediancies sake to cut the story off and shut it down - much like yours, Ryan.

Again, let's have some data not third hand, Chinese whispers.

Perhaps the reason for the effect you have noted is that many people have spent a lot of time and energy studying Gurjieff and his work and have found nothing that even would suggest any truth to such rumors. It has nothing to do with expediancy, it has everything to do with sincerity and learning to be objective.

So, again, please provide your sources, the data, and data on the sources.

I will add that I have heard this nasty rumor myself and undertook to try to verify it and discovered that the source was Pauwels and Bergier who were known to be "fudgers". They also said that Schwaller de Lubicz was the "real" Fulcanelli. In case you don't know it, Schwaller WAS quite closely associated with the Nazi movement and all that you are saying about Gurdjieff is, in fact, true about Schwaller who was definitely NOT Fulcanelli. As far as I can see, it's all part of New Age COINTELPRO, and you are helping to propagate it.

 

[Laura]

Hitler and Mysticism

Just to get the ball rolling, I decided to do a search for this "Colin Brown" who is said to have made claims about Gurdjieff and Hitler. First thing I found was this:

http://members.tripod.com/~Colin_Brown/index-2.html
Spiritual Direction in the tradition of G.I. Gurdjieff

My name is Colin Brown. I have been a student of the fourth way for over twenty-five years. Books do not communicate the struggle, nor can they. I have found that the best way to navigate the vast ocean of work is to work closely with spiritual friends who understand and can reflect your struggle.

I wish by means of this page to make myself available to any student who is working on himself or herself.

A group, while possessing great force may sometimes not be adequately prepared to deal with material that may arise. Also, in some areas groups may not exist.

Spiritual direction is an art practised in many traditions - and I have trained in this field myself. While I do not pretend to be an answerer of questions I am willing to share part of your journey and reflect back some of that journey.

I owe many - and now I wish to repay some of this debt by being of service to you.

I can be reached by e-mail at colin.brown@usa.net or CBrown111@aol.com

There is no charge for this service other than your striving.


This page has been visited times.

Colin Brown

colin.brown@usa.net
P.O. Box 1181
Canby, OR 97013
United States

The page includes a photo and an image of the enneagram. As far as I can tell, there is nothing else to the site (a free webspace server).

Then, there is this:

"HOW TO START A GURDJIEFF GROUP" AND OTHER ESSAYS AND LETTERS ABOUT THE PRACTICAL CHRISTIANITY OF G.I. GURDJIEFF
A COLLECTION OF ESSAYS AND LETTERS DE

Author:
COLIN BROWN

Publisher:
WRITER'S CLUB PRESS

Edition:


ISBN:
0595216102

Binding:
PAPERBACK

Pub. date:
1st January 2001

Pages:
112

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Information provided by www.pickabook.co.uk

and a listing here: http://www.gurdjieff-internet.com/links/otherrelatedsites.html

And basically just a lot of repeats of the same things.

That's the first pass.

 

[Laura]

Hitler and Mysticism

Second pass I find:

The Unknown Hitler: Nazi Roots in the Occult
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/themagazine/vol10/articles/hitlerhistory.shtml

which includes the following bizarre claim:

One should not underestimate occultism's influence on Hitler. His subsequent rejection of Free Masons and esoteric movements, of Theosophy, of Anthrosophy, does not necessarily mean otherwise. Occult circles have long been known as covers for espionage and influence peddling. Hitler's spy apparatus under Canaris and Heydrich were well aware of these conduits, particularly from the direction of Britain which had within its MI5 intelligence agency a department known as the Occult Bureau. That these potential sources of trouble were purged from Nazi life should not be taken to mean that Hitler and the Nazi secret societies were not influenced by mystical and occult writers such as Madame Blavatsky, Houston Stewart Chamberlain, Guido Von List, Lanz Von Liebenfels, Rudolf Steiner, George Gurdjieff, Karl Haushofer and Theodor Fritsch. Although Hitler later denounced and ridiculed many of them, he did dedicate his book Mein Kampf to his teacher Dietrich Eckart.

A frequent visitor to Landsberg Prison where Hitler was writing Mein Kampf with the help of Rudolf Hess, was General Karl Haushofer, a university professor and director of the Munich Institute of Geopolitics. Haushofer, Hitler, and Hess had long conversations together. Hess also kept records of these conversations. Hitler's demands for German "Living Space" in the east at the expense of the Slavic nations were based on the geopolitical theories of the learned professor. Haushofer was also inclined toward the esoteric. as military attache in Japan, he had studied Zen-Buddhism. He had also gone through initiations at the hands of Tibetan Lamas. He became Hitler's second "esoteric mentor", replacing Dietrich Eckart.

In Berlin, Haushofer had founded the Luminous Lodge or the Vril Society. The lodge's objective was to explore the origins of the Aryan race and to perform exercises in concentration to awaken the forces of "Vril". Haushofer was a student of the Russian magician and metaphysician Gregor Ivanovich Gurdyev (George Gurdjieff).

Both Gurdjeiff and Haushofer maintained that they had contacts with secret Tibetan Lodges that possessed the secret of the "Superman". The lodge included Hitler, Alfred Rosenberg, Himmler, Goring, and Hitler's subsequent personal physician Dr. Morell. It is also known that Aleister Crowley and Gurdjieff sought contact with Hitler.

Hitler's unusual powers of suggestion become more understandable if one keeps in mind that he had access to the "secret" psychological techniques of the esoteric lodges. Haushofer taught him the techniques of Gurdjieff which, in turn, were based on the teachings of the Sufis and the Tibetan Lamas- and familiarized him with the Zen teaching of the Japanese Society of the Green Dragon.

From The Unknown Hitler by Wulf Schwartzwaller, Berkeley Books, 1990

Notice that here, it is not Gurdjieff directly who was connected to Hitler, but the claim is made that it was Haushofer who was connected on one side to Gurdjieff and on the other side to Hitler.

Now, anyone who has studied the life and works of Gurdjieff know that he ALWAYS was surrounded by a group of people, students, family, children, etc. Many of the people who stayed at the Prieure were Russian refugees whom Gurdjieff suppoted entirely. There is NO possibility that he could have "disappeared for a year" without any number of them making note of it. There is also NO possibility of Haushofer studying with Gurdjieff without it having been noted and commented on by any of a number of his students or even himself.

The fact is there is NO record of any such contact that I have ever been able to find.

The nasty insinuations that Gurdjieff was into "magick" a la Crowley, comes up now and again too. There is a wonderful incident in Gurdjieff's life that ought to put a period to such speculations:

True to his Caucasian heritage, he dispensed hospitality in abundant quantities. To Aleister Crowley, for example, who came to the Prieure for help with his drug addiction, Gurdjieff showed all due consideration - until Crowley was about to leave.

"Mister, you go?" Gurdjieff inquired. Crowley assented. "You have been guest?" - a fact which the visitor could hardly deny. "Now you go, you are no longer guest?" Crowley - no doubt wondering whether his host had lost his grip on reality and was wandering in a semantic wilderness - humored his mood by indicating that he was on his way back to Paris. But Gurdjieff, having made the point that he was not violating the canons of hospitality, changed on the instant into the embodiment of righteous anger. "You filthy," he stormed, "you dirty inside! Never again you set foot in my house!" . . . Whitefaced and shaking, the Great Beast crept back to Paris with his tail between his legs.(James Webb, The Harmonious Circle: The Lives and Work of G.I. Gurdjieff, P.D. Ouspensky, and Their Followers (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1980) p. 315)

Amusing as it is, this incident also displays some of the problems one faces when trying to make sense of Gurdjieff. More so, perhaps, than any other mage of our time, he seems to have been operating under premises that were obscure or difficult for the ordinary person to sort out - in this comparatively simple case, the obligations of hospitality versus his dislike and distrust for Crowley.

John Roemer writes in "The Controversy of the Occult":

Nazi "science" has brought hoots of derision from those who hold to the Cartesian model. In place of psychology there was an occult frappe composed of the mysticism of Gurdijeff, the theosophy of Madame Blavatsky and the archetypes of Nordic mythology. In place of Newtonian physics stood the cosmic force called vril, the bizarre geology known as the hollow earth theory, and the frigid cosmology of Hans Horbiger's Welteislehre, the doctrine of eternal ice.

Which is total BS. It will be useful to research the authors of all this nonsense in order to determine their connections, their perspectives, and thus their agendas.

When I search on Wulf Schwartzwaller, all I find is hundreds of places quoting his book about Hitler and not a single site that tells us who he is, is he an academic, what is his background, why should we believe him, or even if he is a real person and not a pseudonym.

It's somebody else's turn to dig now.

 

[Ryan]

Hitler and Mysticism

Yes, I'm aware of this, but the server was down yesterday morning. You moving this topic to the Conspiracy Theory section, with absolutely no comment on the substance of the post, occured the night before, didn't it?

Yes it did, but please try to consider that people may be based in different timezones, and thus may be asleep, or working, at different hours. Besides, I also stated my opinion based on what you initially provided. It seems that at least one reader (EsoQuest) understood this.

Shouldn't it be: Hitler and The Fourth Way? Or Hitler and Gurdjieff?

As EsoQuest has perceptively noted, I chose the title in order to broaden the scope of possible discussion. Why are you so concerned about details such as titles and thread locations?

Isn't it closer to the truth that you're simply ill-equipt to deal with this story and will comment on any aspect of my post, my imagined motives for posting it, or any other subject in order to distract attention from the substance of the post itself?

What substance? You simply posted a bunch of hearsay and rumour. And it's easily apparent to everyone that this thread has not been closed or deleted, thus enabling ongoing discussion. So what exactly is your beef, Jake?

Oh, I get it, you want this story to go away so much you're prepared to insinuate that I'm on 4D STS remote from a far-flung part of the multiverse. Charming.

If I wanted this story to go away, wouldn't I have deleted your posts and not started a new thread? What you say makes no sense.

I've told you what I know. I've given Colin's web address. I can do no more.

Will you allow me the courtesy of a little time to investigate and do research before replying further?

 

[Ryan]

Hitler and Mysticism

Some further information about Colin Brown. Most of the reviews of his book on Amazon.com are none too flattering:

Don't buy this book, July 28, 2005
Reviewer: Big Red (Santa Cruz, CA USA) - See all my reviews
While it has its moments of common sense, one should read the last few chapters and judge for themselves the authors sanity. In addition it is very poorly done; the typos are rampant, the assertion that Lizelle Reymond was a student of Gurdjieff's is absurd -- Sri Anirvan sent her to Europe to find Gurdjieff's teaching in the 1950's -- well after Gurdjieff's death, and the quote concerning Ouspensky that is attribute to Ms. Reymond is in fact by Sri Anirvan. Pretty sloppy for one who talks incessantly about "taking care" in his work -- couldn't even bother to proof his blog entries before sending them to the printer. As to his assertion that his teacher emphacized "discrimination" -- well if ever I saw a book that cried out for discrimination in its editing, it is this one.

Don't read this book, do read the first 8 chapters of "In Search of the Miraculous", and then find a real group -- gurdjieff.org is a reliable source, and has pointers to reliable sites, like the Gurdjieff Foundation in New York, for instance.

Dangerous and incompetent, to give exercises in a book, February 16, 2005
Reviewer: John "john68917" (N.J.) - See all my reviews
The author writes about an exercise in this book, the socalled 6-point exercise. This is very thoughtless, incompetent and rather irresponsible, as this particular exercise, as the author should know, needs preparation of a special kind, based on other inner exercises. Otherwise, this exercise can not only lead to wrong results but might even harm. Has the author not read and understood the hint Mr. Gurdjieff gave in the second series?

Poor quality material., July 25, 2002
Reviewer: A reader
The author claims he is "authorized to transmit material" - well not on the evidence presented in this book. Sometimes we can be so full of ourselves...

A serious factual error on page 2 (repeated later in the book, and undermining the credibility the author professes to have), mis-spelling the names of his 'teachers', numerous typos, gross generalisations and dumbing-down of essential material do not bode well for this book.

Add to this some mundane re-hashing and hackery of ideas (expressed concisely and appropriately outside this book by others clearly more qualified), a penchant for tittle-tattle, other people's stories, name-dropping, self-promtion and low-level writing skill points inevitably to the conclusion that this line of work demands much finer product in its representation.

Any old rubbish will not do.

There is only one positive review, aside from the author's own.

Far more interesting though, is this:

http://jtreg.livejournal.com/477.html

Telstar's my favourite record of all time.

IMO Telstar proves the link between channeling and impro (amongst other things).

The guitar solo on Telstar is a Burns Bison played through a Vortexion tape unit with manually applied wobble. The 'flourishes' within the guitar solo are provided by a piano with drawing pins in the pads. There is also a sort of explosion in there too, which is allegedly the sound of a toilet flushing (backwards.)

As regards The Theosophical Society taking the blame for The Third Reich - If one looks at history - torture, genocide and mass-murder are pretty commonplace.

A few years ago, I was in a Fourth Way group hosted by George Cornelius, Gurdjieff's last surviving pupil. According to him - Hitler gained much of his charismatic power whilst in a Fourth Way group in Berlin led by Karl Haushofer in the 1920s. Haushofer was something of a key figure within Nazi occult circles and was also one of the characters in Gurdjieff's "Meetings With Remarkable Men." Haushofer went to Tibet with Gurdjieff, and despite Gurdjieff'd hatred of the Nazi's, it may give a clue as to how Gurdjieff managed to survive in Paris under Nazi occupation.

The Hitler tale perhaps illustrates the necessity of acquiring 'conscience' before all else.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(Anonymous)
2005-09-15 10:17 am UTC (link)
Apols for the accidental anonymity. That last post was by me, Jake Tassell.

Jake, I have some questions. Which Gurdjieff group was it that you were in? Colin's or George's? And who told you that little snippet about Gurdjieff and Hitler? You claim originally that it was Colin, who was told by George, but that seems to contradict what you have written in the above person's LiveJournal (assuming that it was, in fact, you).

Can you clarify the above for me?

 

[Laura]

Hitler and Mysticism

Jake, I have to agree with Ryan's assessment of your somewhat confabulated "content." The only good thing about this thread is that your irresponsible and inaccurate claims can be dealt with for the record.

 

[Keit]

Hitler and Mysticism

According to a book I've read not long ago about Gurdjieff, (This book is in russian by Oleg Shishkin, history researcher, named "Twilight of the Magie"), the source of this information is a book "Monsieur Gurdjieff" by Louis Pauwels (1954). He claimed that some trusted informers (that turned out to be a co-author of "Morning of the magie" - Bergier) told him that one of those who helped to create Gurdgieff society, was Karl Haushofer. And Pauwels believed his source, despite a lack of any proof.

But Shishkin points out a possible connection between Gurdjieff and Rosucristian society, expaining that lot of his ideas (like anology of horse, carriage and driver) were based on a work of Gerard Encausse (Papus).

Such connection exists?