Homeland War

[wanderingthomas]

In the light of recent events - 18th November, the day we make a commemoration to the city of Vukovar which was completely flatened with the earth, men, women and children slaughtered, women raped, homes destroyed and lives lost, and the acquitting verdict in Hagg for generals Markac and Gotovina who managed the militiray operation Oluja which ended the war, freed and saved the Croatian people, it would be great if you could ask the Cs some questions about the war.

What were it's true reasons, motives? Who was truly in control, who managed the behind the curtain operations?

Why was Europe so apathic? Some facts that are not available to the public...

What is your take on this suggestion?

 

[wanderingthomas]

Here are some pictures of Vukovar post the Serbian attack:

http://croatia.org/crown/content_images/vukovar/vukovar_plac91.jpg

http://bedrudingusic.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/vukovar-062.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mwIzEIYv_-Q/T1Xn445MeVI/AAAAAAAAAlM/5mW30Y3_X2k/s1600/vukovar_zrak_2.jpg

http://www.lob.hr/data/galerija/147/79967010991.jpg

http://www.matica.hr/Vijenac/vijenac384.nsf/0/7619157aecc79c13c1257508004a1e52/$FILE/STG64306/STG64306.gif?OpenElement

http://www.jutarnji.hr/multimedia/archive/00228/vukovar_zagreb_svi_228216S1.jpg

 

[Laura]

Who did it?

 

[wanderingthomas]

The JNA - "Yugoslavian National Army". Basically the Serbian Army, the commander who was in charge off the attack was a serbian Veselin Šljivančanin.

I just watched the documentary "The Silenced Voice", which talks about the destiny off Vukovars reporter and journalist Sinisa Glavasevic as well as a lot else...

The most striking moment was when our (the croatian) minister of health declared the Vukovar hospital nutralized according to the Geneva agreement which basically meant that the red cross and the international observers would be able to come and help people and that it would be forbidden for military to enter the hospital but the JNA - yugoslavian national army - serbs entered the hospital, evacuated it, seperated men from women, put the men in buses and drove them first to some sort of storage building where they tortured them and then to OVACARA (the c is read as ch o č) a place where the serbs dug a giant mass tomb in the ground where they killed and buried croatians and various others.

 

[wanderingthomas]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1784739/

Zaustavljeni glas = "The Silenced Voice"

 

[Laura]

Perhaps you might want to write about it at more length to publish on sott? Names, dates, everything you know or can find?

 

[wanderingthomas]

Well, I'm afraid I do not have that level of expertise nor do I want to put such a vast responsibility on myself, a responsibility to transmit factual, true information to others about such an important and mind-boggling event about which most people in the world know so little about - it was a crime against humanity in the middle of Europe in the end of the 20th century. Amazing.

I would have to do massive reseach before something like that.

But we will see - we have a "Galaksija" forum in the Balkan region which is basically the Cassiopaea forum content-wise and there are people there who have been translating your material and similar for a while so, I will make a suggestion there.

 

[wanderingthomas]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence

This is what we are talking about for those who don't know.

 

[grini]

I have read today in the mainstream media that CIA (George Tenet) and Pentagon were behind the military operation Oluja (Storm), they were working with Gotovina. But, again, that is from mainstream media.
Allegedly, there was american base for drones on island Brac discovered several months before military operation Oluja. (also from mainstream media)
I was a kid when this was happening and I remember hiding in the basement. My dad was in the war from beginning till the end and he said that he saw how some politicians were getting very rich, they were stealing trucks with gas and everything else what they could steal.

And now the acquitting verdict for generals Gotovina and Markac, the whole country got so emotional and these two-three days all you could see on TV were masses. If you mention religion or Homeland war, Croatians just lost their mind and get VERY emotional. If now Gotovina says something to them, to vote, or do, they will just go and do it, because he is Croatian hero, he can manipulate them as he wish! There were many victims, but this whole thing just stinks and I think Domagoj wrote some good questions.

 

[Z...]

What were it's true reasons, motives? Who was truly in control, who managed the behind the curtain operations?

This is an interesting question, you might want to see this documentary which is trying to find the answers:
_http://www.b92.net/specijal/vukovar-eng/

From the sinopsis:
We have tried to comprehend why Vukovar, a rich Slavonian town famous for being a "miniature Yugoslavia," Tito's exemplary town of unity, was the one location to suffer total apocalypse, one comparable to the sacrifice and siege of Stalingrad, and by the extent of destruction, and scenes shown around the world, reminiscent of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Why was a city which had no strategic interest in military and police force formations in the conflict between the Yugoslav National Army and the Croatian military, so systematically destroyed while the Serbian (Milosevic) and Croatian (Tudjman) leaders walked around Tito’s estate all the while, discussing plans for a new division of Yugoslavia?

The JNA - "Yugoslavian National Army". Basically the Serbian Army, the commander who was in charge off the attack was a serbian Veselin Šljivančanin.

Actually it was Serbian Territorial Defense and paramilitary formations who carried out the massacre. According to International Criminal Tribunal findings Yugoslav Army forces were pulled back from the Ovcara ( site of massacre).

and the acquitting verdict in Hagg for generals Markac and Gotovina who managed the militiray operation Oluja which ended the war, freed and saved the Croatian people.

It should also be mentioned that during this operation Storm, which was entirely planned and supported by NATO many Serbian civilians ( mostly disabled and elderly who were unable to leave ) were massacred and 90% of serbian houses burned to the ground. Also the civilian refuge convoys were bombed in the aftermath of this operation. This is a far cry from as you say "freeing and saving Croatian people" as practically no Croats lived in those areas. it was more about the strategic and economic interests as Serbian rebels held the access to the sea and were effectively splitting the Croatia in two halves.
At the International Tribunal some evidence emerged that Croatian President actually planned ethnic cleansing of Serbs who occupied border regions of Croatia:
"On 31 July 1995, a meeting of Croatia’s top military and political leadership was held on the island of Brijuni.Tudjman apparently spoke about "blows that will make the Serbs all but disappear, in other words, those we don’t reach immediately, must capitulate in the next few days."

The transcript of the meeting later formed the basis of the United Nations war crimes tribunal for the former Yugoslavia's allegation of a joint criminal enterprise found in the indictment against generals Ante Gotovina, Ivan Cermak and Mladen Markac. The prosecution of the ICTY alleged that the content of the meeting was evidence of existence of a joint criminal enterprise to forcibly remove the Serb population from Croatia and prevent their return.According to the prosecution, the Brijuni Transcripts demonstrated a shared intent to forcibly remove Serbs from the area through means such as shelling, destruction, looting, intimidation, and violence, while the defense maintains that Tudjman specifically spoke about rebel Serb military units when he referred to Serbs needing to "all but disappear"

The Croatian Chief State Prosecutor's Office has verified the authenticity of the recording of the Brijuni meeting.[41][42] Tudjman's words indicate his intent to move the civilian population out of the area while issuing false human rights guarantees."

This is why Croatian generals you mention were indicted and found guilty at first but recently this ruling has been reversed.
There are some indications these two generals were sacrificed in order for Croatia to be able to join EU and after this has been accomplished their sentence has been reversed and they were acquitted of the charges. Stinks of high level political intrigue with little regard for victims on both sides.

 

[Z...]

I have read today in the mainstream media that CIA (George Tenet) and Pentagon were behind the military operation Oluja (Storm), they were working with Gotovina. But, again, that is from mainstream media.
Allegedly, there was american base for drones on island Brac discovered several months before military operation Oluja. (also from mainstream media)
I was a kid when this was happening and I remember hiding in the basement. My dad was in the war from beginning till the end and he said that he saw how some politicians were getting very rich, they were stealing trucks with gas and everything else what they could steal.

And now the acquitting verdict for generals Gotovina and Markac, the whole country got so emotional and these two-three days all you could see on TV were masses. If you mention religion or Homeland war, Croatians just lost their mind and get VERY emotional. If now Gotovina says something to them, to vote, or do, they will just go and do it, because he is Croatian hero, he can manipulate them as he wish! There were many victims, but this whole thing just stinks and I think Domagoj wrote some good questions.

Well mainstream media or not - by now it is pretty obvious the whole Yugoslav mess was orchestrated by CIA and Pentagon. The hysterization of Yugoslav people was executed to perfection playing on good old religious division.
In the aftermath of Yugoslav civil war we have seen creation of 6 banana republics, HAARP installations installed on Serbian territory, narco mafia and organ trading in Kosovo etc. Every party involved in this conflict suffered immensely, and sadly the Croatian people who are now bleed dry by multinational companies can still be roused by national/religious pathos and illusion of their independent state.

 

[aelyrsenn]

It is amazing how so many serbs today still don't accept they were the aggressors, no mater who or which country/organisation was behind all of it...And that if you attack someone you should expect them to defend themselves.
Talking about mainstream media...

 

[Yozilla]

And now the acquitting verdict for generals Gotovina and Markac, the whole country got so emotional and these two-three days all you could see on TV were masses. If you mention religion or Homeland war, Croatians just lost their mind and get VERY emotional. If now Gotovina says something to them, to vote, or do, they will just go and do it, because he is Croatian hero, he can manipulate them as he wish! There were many victims, but this whole thing just stinks and I think Domagoj wrote some good questions.

Yes it was very emotional reaction from vast majority of Croats, hence it is interesting how general Gotovina made his first statement on welcome in Zageb on Friday:"The war is over - we must concentrate on future" or something similar in this context - so no sign of manipulation for now. And if he would try something like that - i will find it very repulsive - and pretty sure that i won't be the only one.

The JNA - "Yugoslavian National Army". Basically the Serbian Army, the commander who was in charge off the attack (on Vukovar) was a serbian Veselin Šljivančanin.

I just watched the documentary "The Silenced Voice", which talks about the destiny off Vukovars reporter and journalist Sinisa Glavasevic as well as a lot else...

It is also interesting how how Veselin Šljivančanin commented this outcome:

_http://www.slobodnaevropa.org/archive/news/20121118/500/500.html?id=24774227

In this article Šljivancanin is approving the verdict - which is totally opposite from other reactions from Serbia. One sentence is quite significant to me:

"O Hrvatima može da misli šta ko hoće, ali su nam održali lekciju iz dostojanstva i trebalo bi da učimo od njih";

You can think of Croats whatever you want, but they taught us a lesson in dignity and we should learn from them"

 

[Z...]

It is amazing how so many Serbs today still don't accept they were the aggressors, no mater who or which country/organization was behind all of it...And that if you attack someone you should expect them to defend themselves.
Talking about mainstream media...

Perhaps this is because many Serbs didn't set their foot in Croatia during the war and vast majority of population in Serbia didn't have a clue what is going on just few hundred kilometers away. Lets not forget this was the time when internet was not so wide spread and people only had mainstream media to rely on for information.
It was pretty much the same for many citizens of Croatia, as a first example I can give my hometown Split on the Croatian coast where most of the people didn't have a clue that right under their nose there was a detention camp in which unspeakable atrocities were taking place against civilians and prisoners of war. Here is the report from the Institute for War and Peace reporting: _http://iwpr.net/report-news/croatias-secret-reparations-revealed.

This issue is very complex and the matter of perspective. For some people in Yugoslav republics this was war for independence, for couple of million Yugoslavs it was a civil war. It was hardly a clear cut case of aggression by one state against another.

Yes it was very emotional reaction from vast majority of Croats, hence it is interesting how general Gotovina made his first statement on welcome in Zageb on Friday:"The war is over - we must concentrate on future" or something similar in this context - so no sign of manipulation for now. And if he would try something like that - i will find it very repulsive - and pretty sure that i won't be the only one.

FWIW I personally believe general Gotovina was an honest soldier who was caught up and sacrificed in political games. Atrocities were committed by paramilitary formations on both sides, hardly ever by official Croatian Army or Yugoslav Army. What he said is the key, trying to put the blame on one side or another will not contribute very much to peaceful coexistence of Croats and Serbs in the future.

 

[Regulattor]

But please do not forget that Croats voted over staying in Yugoslav Federation on referendum dated May 19th 1991. in which turnout was 83,56% out of which 93,24% voted against staying in Federation and in favor of establishing independent Croatian state!

Unfortunately for both nations, process of ponerization was already heavy on both sides, started far back from collapse of Austro-Hungarian empire, bioling in first Yugoslav monarchy (with Serbian monarch), erupted in WWII with unreasonable bestiality and mutual slaughters to end in latest conflicts back in '90. (that is for now), heavily influenced by the western agencies thru this whole period.

Tragic events between two nations are perfect examples how ponerization and lack of critical thinking, both on personal and collective level results in repeating patterns of rising mutual hatered and capacity to harm another person in ordinary people, just because other, he or she isn't from this or that nation or religion! Results of this are aftermath of battle for Vukovar, or Oluja offensive, but just as we speak in Gaza as well!

I live in Zagreb and I was tempted for the last few days to identify with this situation. The country was on standstill from Friday 'till Sunday, bathing in euphoria and triumphalism. Masses of people waving the flags and celebrating return of their war heroes! More then 100.000 people gathered in Zagreb's main square on welcome party, but just few thousend to protest over growing austerity measures imposed by the day or to raise voice against gargantuan corruption in political, financial and economical sphere which resulted in skyrocketing international debt (Croatia is the most indebted ex Yu country!), destroyed economy, massive unemployment and future as debt slaves for generations to come!

Unfortunately, people don't want to face ugliness of the reality! They think that someone else should deal with this, and unfortunately again, someone else will do it - Universe will do it! It will be hard lesion for both nations in question!