¿How I can know if I produced a partial fusion on me?

[OrangeScorpion]

After reading Gnosis II, specifically the section dealing with the doctrine of the Present and the five stages to create the fusion, I have the feeling of having produced in me in the past the fusion under the influence of a strong negative emotion, but I'm not sure is just a thought that keeps appearing in my head.

Can anyone give me clues to find out if I have a partial o negative fusion inside me?

I searched the answer in the forum, but I haven't found it. English is not my native language, so forgive me if you have already spoken about this and if so, I would ask you, please send me there.

 

[Renaissance]

Hi OrangeScorpion, maybe it would help if you described the circumstances where you feel you might have developed a 'partial fusion' and the effects you feel resulted from it?

 

[OrangeScorpion]

Hi OrangeScorpion, maybe it would help if you described the circumstances where you feel you might have developed a 'partial fusion' and the effects you feel resulted from it?

Hi Shane!!!

On the one hand I think in this hypothesis: I have a partial fusion. On the other hand, I think that may not be possible ... Which of my selves Should I do case?
I have this doubt for days and needed some objective data to discard.

I'm new to all this, even I can't control the self-observation, even less feel the effects of any partial alleged fusion. But I can tell you the circumstances in my life that lead me to realize this hypothesis. And I thought do this in my first message.

The problem with writing the text is that it was becoming too extensive about speculation that I have not even clear, giving too many explanations of my life that I certainly will not interest anyone and wrapped on assumptions that do not know if they are rational or absurd. Definitely, noise, noise, noise

I thought that what really matters in my message was to raise the question as brief as possible. I see I was wrong.

I'll try to explain of a short form to not generate much noise what is the problem that I have.

Mouravieff explain in Gnosis I that one can't access to "The Way" if one has not previously passed through the moral collapse, a collapse that drives you to the search for truth. I know this step already I have given it. The only thing that was clear.

Well, now already even this I don't have clear. I ask whether my moral collapse caused partial fusion, because some of calm and control over me, I think that came from this day that all "exploded." I wonder if what I've seen a positive result of my acquisition of knowledge is not due to my partial fusion.

On the other hand, working in the self-observation, I can't be separated in two. The observer and the observed. I can "not identify self" with a negative feeling but I can't observed this, when I cease to identify me disappears. I try but always disappears negative feeling or thought. I don't know how to make that negative sentiment go ahead for me to observe this sentiment. Surely it is that I have much to learn and practice BUT ... And now my twisted mind back to speculate ... “and If I have a partial fusion and therefore I am unable to practice the self-observation until that I rid my partial fusion.”

I could go on and on with speculation and assumptions that appear in my mind to justify the partial fusion in me.

And also to discredit this hypothesis... “It be that I'm using my partial fusion hypothesis because I don't want really see that I don't advance because I need more work and more attention.”

I'm tired of the issue of partial fusion in my head and I think an objective fact about how an individual acts with partial fusion could help me for discard this hypothesis.

My English is very bad sorry, sorry, sorry…

 

[obyvatel]

I'm tired of the issue of partial fusion in my head and I think an objective fact about how an individual acts with partial fusion could help me for discard this hypothesis.

Gurdjieff describes crystallization (or fusion) under wrong foundations in ISOTM
[quote author=ISOTM]
But crystallization is possible on a right foundation and it is possible on a wrong foundation. 'Friction,' the struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' can easily take place on a wrong foundation. For instance, a fanatical belief in some or other idea, or the 'fear of sin,' can evoke a terribly intense struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' and a man may crystallize on these foundations. But this would be a wrong, incomplete crystallization. Such a man will not possess the possibility of further development. In order to make further development possible he must be melted down again, and this can be accomplished only through terrible suffering.
"Crystallization is possible on any foundation. Take for example a brigand, a really good, genuine brigand. I knew such brigands in the Caucasus. He will stand with a rifle behind a stone by the roadside for eight hours without stirring. Could you do this? All the time, mind you, a struggle is going on in him. He is thirsty and hot, and flies are biting him; but he stands still. Another is a monk; he is afraid of the devil; all night long he beats his head on the floor and prays. Thus crystallization is achieved. In such ways people can generate in themselves an enormous inner strength; they can endure torture; they can get what they want. This means that there is now in them something solid, something permanent.
[/quote]
Are you capable of similar single mindedness? If not, then perhaps you need not worry about having achieved partial fusion.

 

[dannybananny]

Partial fusion doesn't have any real value, because it's partial but it can't be no other when you begin to rid of your habits, some thoughts, etc... because it needs practice to become solid. When you accomplish some fusion you'll know, you'll be different men!

 

[Renaissance]

I'm tired of the issue of partial fusion in my head and I think an objective fact about how an individual acts with partial fusion could help me for discard this hypothesis.

Gurdjieff describes crystallization (or fusion) under wrong foundations in ISOTM
[quote author=ISOTM]
But crystallization is possible on a right foundation and it is possible on a wrong foundation. 'Friction,' the struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' can easily take place on a wrong foundation. For instance, a fanatical belief in some or other idea, or the 'fear of sin,' can evoke a terribly intense struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' and a man may crystallize on these foundations. But this would be a wrong, incomplete crystallization. <snip>

[/quote]

I think when we look at this description, Gurdjieff is describing a behavior or conviction that becomes wholly ingrained in our being. Thus there is no doubt surrounding the behavior - very much like how a psychopath responds to things, i.e. having no doubt about their lies. But the difference with a crystallized center is that it is built through willpower whereas a psychopath is a pure machine.

So, what you're describing OrangeScorpion, sounds like the opposite - lots of doubt combined with a lack of willpower. What you seem to be observing is your own mechanical behavior, and while frustrating it's a much needed process. However, the negative self-talk you're doing sounds like it could be taking it's toll. Have you read the any of the 'big 5' books on Narcissism?:

Myth of Sanity - Martha Stout
The Narcissistic Family - Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert M. Pressman
Trapped in the Mirror - Elan Golomb
Unholy Hungers - Barbara E. Hort
In Sheep's Clothing - George K. Simon

If not they really go together with Gurdjieffs Work and provide different views of similar dynamics to provide a better understanding of our machine.

 

[doublea1535]

I can "not identify self" with a negative feeling but I can't observed this, when I cease to identify me disappears. I try but always disappears negative feeling or thought. I don't know how to make that negative sentiment go ahead for me to observe this sentiment.

Hi OrangeScorpion,

I am trying to understand what you mean in the above, specifically the first statement. I think you have been given good advice, and I am not sure that I have anything of value to add. But would you mind re-wording that statement? Maybe you could try to use "plain" language, since there is already a language issue?

[quote author=ISOTM]
But crystallization is possible on a right foundation and it is possible on a wrong foundation. 'Friction,' the struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' can easily take place on a wrong foundation. For instance, a fanatical belief in some or other idea, or the 'fear of sin,' can evoke a terribly intense struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' and a man may crystallize on these foundations. But this would be a wrong, incomplete crystallization. Such a man will not possess the possibility of further development. In order to make further development possible he must be melted down again, and this can be accomplished only through terrible suffering.
"Crystallization is possible on any foundation. Take for example a brigand, a really good, genuine brigand. I knew such brigands in the Caucasus. He will stand with a rifle behind a stone by the roadside for eight hours without stirring. Could you do this? All the time, mind you, a struggle is going on in him. He is thirsty and hot, and flies are biting him; but he stands still. Another is a monk; he is afraid of the devil; all night long he beats his head on the floor and prays. Thus crystallization is achieved. In such ways people can generate in themselves an enormous inner strength; they can endure torture; they can get what they want. This means that there is now in them something solid, something permanent.
[/quote]

The last part really catches my eye. Something solid, something permanent. So it would always be there, which means it would always manifest in some way, under conditions which trigger it. The brigand would express more patience in life than the average person, having solidified within himself the ability to wait long periods of time. The monk who is literally beating his head against the floor could endure hardship without complaint, having suffered so much self-inflicted pain. Following those two examples, in normal life it would be hard for the brigand to fidget impatiently while waiting in line, or for the monk to complain about having to carry his groceries home because the bus broke down. Such reactions wouldn't be "in them", it wouldn't be their "style". The crystallization would naturally take over, because it is the most powerful part of an average person, and because a situation has arise for which it is conditioned. OSIT.

So I am not sure what you mean when you say you have these negative feelings. But my thought is that if one were negatively crystallized, it is not something which would be fleeting for them. It would not disappear, and instead of it being hard to "hold onto" it would be the opposite. It would hard to repress these negative feelings, or dispel the associated negative thoughts from your mind.

And besides, what have you done for such a long period of your life that would create such a crystallization? That's rhetorical, by the way.

 

[OrangeScorpion]

Thank you all for the comments, my doubts has disappeared completely on this issue. Now I know (roughly speaking) what it is and how you can get a partial fusion and is not my case. I feel ridiculous and even insolent for believe that I had a partial fusion. :) :)

So, what you're describing OrangeScorpion, sounds like the opposite - lots of doubt combined with a lack of willpower. What you seem to be observing is your own mechanical behavior, and while frustrating it's a much needed process. However, the negative self-talk you're doing sounds like it could be taking it's toll. Have you read the any of the 'big 5' books on Narcissism?:

Yes, I have lots of doubt and lack of willpower. I know, but at the same time I forget and justify my lack of progress in Work accepting ridiculous thoughts like "have a partial fusion". Now I realize and I thank you.

I didn't understand your statement about "toll". I think you want to tell me that my negative self-talk is looking a punishment and I punish me thinking that I have a partial fusion to further complicate my Work. Am I right?

I have really wanted to read the 'big 5' books on Narcissism but currently there is no translation into my language.

I can "not identify self" with a negative feeling but I can't observed this, when I cease to identify me disappears. I try but always disappears negative feeling or thought. I don't know how to make that negative sentiment go ahead for me to observe this sentiment.

Hi OrangeScorpion,

I am trying to understand what you mean in the above, specifically the first statement. I think you have been given good advice, and I am not sure that I have anything of value to add. But would you mind re-wording that statement? Maybe you could try to use "plain" language, since there is already a language issue?

I wanted to say I've learned to "not identify self" with negative thoughts (not always I can), but I do not know observe these negative thoughts. If I don't identify self with a particular negative thought, this thought disappears of my mind. I can't observe this negative thinking because it has disappeared in my head when I don't identify with this negative thinking. I don't know just depart and leave the negative thoughts continues flowing in my head.

I hope now be more clear, I think the problem is that I don't know translated a reflexive verb into English. I hope to learn soon. :) :)